Snowdrops species IDs

[Sinchets]

Galanthus ikariae flowering now that the snow has melted in this part of the garden.

[Martin Baxendale]

Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.

[Sinchets]

Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.

But the seed was from Greece, Martin.

[Martin Baxendale]

Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.

But the seed was from Greece, Martin.

Simon, could you post another photo when the flower is wider open? The mark is almost hidden, but what is visible looks like a smallish mark of the woronowii type rather than the large mark typical of ikariae. Also the leaves look rather bright green for ikariae and the flower shape looks more woronowii than typical ikariae. But I could be wrong, especially if the seed was collected in the distribution area for ikariae.

[Sinchets]

Still waiting for the flower to open more. What is the accepted range for G.ikariae these days and is it as variable in the amount of green it has inside as other Galanthus are?

[johnw]

Martin - Is the marking the most reliable characteristic to distinguish these two species?  The leaf colour & sheen are difficult to judge here when the books are so vague on these matters. It wasn't until flowering that most - but not all - of the ikariae Latifolius here were confirmed as woronowiis.  Chromosome counts?

And in Canada we find this in Fraser's Thimble 2012 catalogue:

"Galanthus ikariae  ( G.worownii) Another larger snowdrop similar to elwesii but leaves are a shiny green.  Ht.8".
                                             $5.40ea for 10 or $26.50 for 50"

Is there a hair-pulling icon?



johnw

[Martin Baxendale]

Woronowii is quite variable, ikariae less so. The most obvious difference is in the size of the mark. In ikariae the (generally flat-topped) mark virtually always covers at least two thirds of the inner segment, so is very large and bold. In woronowii the mark is much smaller, a thin u-shape around the sinus or a thicker u-shape with a flat top. The flower shape is also quite different. Ikariae generally has long outers, much longer than the inners, tending to be quite pointed in shape, a flower form not seen in any other species. Woronowii flowers tend to be more "normal" snowdrop shape, inners almost as long as the outers, outers more rounded. The leaves of ikariae are generally much less shiny than those of woronowii, although that can be variable. When you've seen a lot of ikariae you tend to get an eye for them and generally can tell them apart from woronowii at a glance. But of course the variation in the wild may well be greater than in cultivation, and I wouldn't be surprised if wild populations exist that may be less easy to tell apart.

Not sure what the exact latest distribution patterns are, Simon, but woronowii is generally speaking northern Turkey up into Russia, with the Greek Aegean area being ikariae.

[Sinchets]

It didn't open today, because it wasn't warm enough here- but a quick peek inside reveals that the inner petals are less than half as long as the outers- but there are only 2 small green spots on each inner petal. As I know it is from Greece I guess this means that G.ikariae is as variable in its markings as G.nivalis for example.

[Martin Baxendale]

It didn't open today, because it wasn't warm enough here- but a quick peek inside reveals that the inner petals are less than half as long as the outers- but there are only 2 small green spots on each inner petal. As I know it is from Greece I guess this means that G.ikariae is as variable in its markings as G.nivalis for example.

In wild populations so far observed botanists have found the typical large ikariae marking to be pretty uniform, but of course that doesn't mean there won't be exceptions. Would be very interested to see a photo when it does open up enough to see the mark and the flower shape properly.

[Martin Baxendale]

I have to say, Simon, the leaves at first glance did look ikariae-like even though they're quite a bright, shiny green. The slight puckering on the leaf surfaces is typical of ikariae.

[Sinchets]

The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.

[Martin Baxendale]

The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.

Well if the seed those come from was definitely wild collected in Greece (no possibility of a mix up during packeting, sowing or labelling? Collected by you or someone else?) then I'm not sure what to make of them. Certainly don't look like typical ikariae. The flowers are more woronowii shaped, the inners aren't as short in proportion to the outers as in typical ikariae, and the marks are very much like woronowii and nothing like typical ikariae.

Here's a link to Janet Lecore's "Judy's Snowdrops" website with some good photos of typical ikariae for comparison.

http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Plant_Profiles/species/ikariae/ikariae.htm

[Sinchets]

We did the collecting so we know it is from Greece  
I checked out your link and see what you mean about the marking- so the question is can G.ikariae be expected to less variable in the wild in its markings than other Galanthus are? Are the forms in cultivation at the moment only representative of a few forms in the wild?

[mark smyth]

The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.

Could these be the first ikariae cultivars? Maybe no one has looked at the variation in wild populations of G. ikaraie

[Martin Baxendale]

We did the collecting so we know it is from Greece  
I checked out your link and see what you mean about the marking- so the question is can G.ikariae be expected to less variable in the wild in its markings than other Galanthus are? Are the forms in cultivation at the moment only representative of a few forms in the wild?

I don't have any personal knowledge of ikariae in the wild, but various botanists have investigated a fair number of wild ikariae populations and found them not to be particularly variable. Since as a species its distribution is quite localised, rather than widespread like the distribution of some other galanthus, that's probably not surprising. As I said before, that of course doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions. Were the plants that the seed was collected from definitely growing wild, not in or near built-up areas where they might have been planted as bought bulbs? I assume they were clearly wild-growing bulbs, but just thought I'd ask the question to rule out any possibility of them being an introduction.