Snowdrops species IDs

[Sinchets]

Yes, the locality really was in the middle of nowhere. Its main companion plants were Cyclamen with some Sternbergia nearby. My main experience of Greece is that people are far more likely to leave an old fridge or mattress in the middle of nowhere than a Galanthus - my apologies to any Greek forumists who aren't avid flytippers. 

[Martin Baxendale]

Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?

[Carolyn Walker]

Johnw---Gorgeous leucojum cultivar--I will be looking for that one.  Your clump of 'Flore Pleno' is amazing.  Mine are fine but they just don't grow and multiply like that.

I don't know if this adds anything but here are two photos of my G. woronowii that look just like the G. ikariae you are discussing.  In the US, G. woronowii is always sold as another name for G. ikariae like they are the same plant.  I know they are not and have always been told that all the plants in the US are G. woronowii.  Carolyn

[johnw]

I don't know if this adds anything but here are two photos of my G. woronowii that look just like the G. ikariae you are discussing.  In the US, G. woronowii is always sold as another name for G. ikariae like they are the same plant.  I know they are not and have always been told that all the plants in the US are G. woronowii.  Carolyn

Carolyn - Our woronowiis were received long ago as ikariae Latifolius and Latifolius.

I wonder if woronowii and ikariae might someday be reduced to one species.  And I have to wonder just how strong the argument for separation is.  

Simon -  Might be an idea to send Aaron Davis a picture of your plant with the collection data.  It could, as we say, upset some applecarts

johnw

[Paul T]

Howdy All,

I'm seeing this topic for the first time, as I expand my forum forays into the Galanthus section......

Just to add something from afar..... my woronowii look like the top of this page, and my ikariae look like Carolyn's.  I had read that woronowii and ikariae are now lumped together, but given how extremely different the ones I have are, I'd always wondered about that.  The floral proportions and the look of the leaves are very different between the two that I have under those names.

[Sinchets]

Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?

It was on one of the islands. Maybe just a new floral finding for G.woronowii in Greece 

[Martin Baxendale]

I wonder if woronowii and ikariae might someday be reduced to one species.  And I have to wonder just how strong the argument for separation is.  
johnw

Doesn't seem likely, John. Here's an extract from Ben Zonneveld's DNA study of galanthus:

Due to superficial morphological similarities
G. woronowii has been considered to
represent a synonym (e.g Artjushenko 1966,
Brickell 1984) or a subspecies (Stern 1956: as
G. ikariae Baker subsp. latifolius Stern) of
G. ikariae. More recently it has been shown
that these two species are distinct, on the
basis of anatomical (Davis and Barnett
1997), morphological and ecogeographical
evidence (Davis 1999: 165–169). Their more
distant relationship is confirmed by the nuclear
DNA values, G. ikariae having a nearly 13 pg
higher nuclear DNA content.

[Martin Baxendale]

Looks like Simon's snowdrops are either an atypical form of Ikariae (the leaves do show ikariae-like puckering) or woronowii a very long way away from where it should be. Given the provenance on a Greek island, I guess they're more likely to be an unusual form of ikariae. Ben Zonneveld's study also shows that different wild collections of ikariae all have a very narrow range of DNA content - while other species tend to show a wider range - which along with the very localised distribution helps to explain why most populations are so similar morphologically with little difference in flower shape and marking.

[Hans J]

here some words from me ....

I have visit a lot of populations in the wild from G.ikariae + G.snogerupii + G.woronowii -so I really dont understand why so many people have problems distinguish ....I have written it here some times before

A.Davis has make it very clear in his book " The Genus Galanthus" ( page 160 ) :

"A further means of telling these species apart is by looking at transverse sections of the leaves, since the leaf anatomy of each species is quite different. When a leaf of G. ikariae is sectioned and examined under a microscope, large air spaces are evident across the width of the leaf, and the mesophyll cells ( the cells making up the bulk of the leaf tissue ) are loosley arranged with spaces between them. The large air spaces can be clearly seen with either the naked eye or a x 10  hand lens when the leaf is cut in half with a knife or pair of scissors."

I can say not so much to the plants from Simon ...a plant without a location is (for me ) a bad plant !

By my trips on the Cyclades ( Ikaria,Andros,Naxos) I have seen a lot of flowers - but never such like Simons plant

Populations of G.ikariae ( Cyclades) and G.woronowii ( Black Sea Coast ) are really far away ....

Simon wrote that he see this plants in the middle of nowhere ( together with old fridges) ....maybe anybody has brought his waste there from his garden ?
A other idea comes in my mind : we should not forget that many parts of Greece ( special the islands ) was long times occupatet from turkish people ....sometimes until 300 years - so a lot can happens .....

To this other point with the flowering time from G.ikariae + G.snogerupii :
This is in my eyes only a result of the mild temperatures in England ( or other areas with mild temperatures)
The plants flowering in here habitats from middle of February until end of March - I have asked local peoples ,the locations are partly high from 300 - 700 m altitude ...but I found G.snogerupii also on 840 m !!!

The late flowering time from Simon's plants looks for me also more like G.woronowii ....

Hans

[Sinchets]

Hans- I think you misunderstood my posts:
1) I do have a location for these Galanthus ikariae.
2) They were not found near a dump site but in a pure woodland habitat with other wild plants. There were no habitations nearby and it seems unlikely that someone would randomly establish a population of G.woronowii in the middle of nowhere just for a giggle. Anyone who has ever seen a typical Greek garden will understand that they are not the most species diverse gardens in the wild. The idea that Galanthus woronowii would be brought from the far side of Turkey to be grown in a country, which already has its own Galanthus species also seems rather bizarre.
3) Last week these Galanthus were all under 1 metre of snow- as such I think they can be forgiven their late flowering!

[Martin Baxendale]

I'm really at a loss here, over the ikariae/wornowii Simon. What you say about them suggests a very atypical form of ikariae  but when I go back and look at the photos they still look like woronowii. The leaf anatomy test that Hans suggests would settle the question one way or the other. I didn't initially suggest it because I was convinced they were woronowii, plus people don't always want to cut up the leaves of their bulbs, especially if they only have one or two. But the diagnostic test Hans describes would settle the matter. I've never done it, but the air spaces are supposed to be very obvious, large enough to insert a pin into. Maybe you could try it with one leaf, cutting not too far down the leaf so as to not deprive the bulb of too much leafage?

[Hans J]

Simon ,

1 ) Yes- you have the location ...( I would never ask for a precise location - but I have no problem to tell it I have found it p.e. on this or this island )

What I would say : I can not ask for the ID of a plant if I not tell where it grows ( in case I have it )

This remeber me on the old times when I read first descriptions of Cacti and the was only written Bolivia ....

2 ) Sorry - I  have understand you found it in area of waste
3 ) I have tried only to find a explanation how this plants comes to Greece - have you ever seen graveyards in turkey ? ...there grows a lot of plants !
And go to some greek islands ....so you will see many Sternbergia and Amaryllis belladonna in gardens !
Please dont forget that greek peoples use Galanthus for medicine ....

Hans

[Hans J]

Martin ,

I agree with you - why not cut one leaf ...and so it is easy to know what it is
We need no DNA test or anything ....

Hans

[Sinchets]

We have a picture of the leaf surface showing puckering on the upper surface and ribbing below.

[Hans J]

Simon ,

please turn the leaf to the cut side ( from side view ) and look if you see the wholes

Hans