Snowdrops species IDs

[Sinchets]

Simon ,

1 ) Yes- you have the location ...( I would never ask for a precise location - but I have no problem to tell it I have found it p.e. on this or this island )

What I would say : I can not ask for the ID of a plant if I not tell where it grows ( in case I have it )

This remeber me on the old times when I read first descriptions of Cacti and the was only written Bolivia ....

2 ) Sorry - I  have understand you found it in area of waste
3 ) I have tried only to find a explanation how this plants comes to Greece - have you ever seen graveyards in turkey ? ...there grows a lot of plants !
And go to some greek islands ....so you will see many Sternbergia and Amaryllis belladonna in gardens !
Please dont forget that greek peoples use Galanthus for medicine ....

Hans

Hans, yes Galanthus are also used in Bulgaria for medicine, but they use Bulgarian native species not one from NE Turkey. The habitat where the plants were seen was deciduous woodland with Cyclamen- it did not looked disturbed it certainly was not near any habitation or graveyards or rubbish dumps.

We know the exact location and plan to return at some point to ascertain variability there.

We cannot see holes other than those caused by the ribbing- but what does this tell us? G.wornowii where it shouldn't be? Variability in Galanthus ikariae? Or a new species of Galanthus?

[johnw]

Simon / Martin / Hans

Terribly exciting don't you think?  A disjunct population of woronowii or possibly a ikariae that doesn't fit the description. Nothing gives greater pleasure than shaking up the taxonomists.  Now how will you proceed Simon?

I'm going out to cut some leaves of my ikariae Latifolius/woronowiis.  Haven't been brave enough to date.

johnw

[Sinchets]

John- you will need the eyes of a hawk and a steady hand. Chris [who should be planting potatoes] has been sat for the last 30minutes sticking a needle into holes in leaves- productive???

[Maggi Young]

Am I missing something here? Is it not "necessary"  (helpful?) to take a macro shot of the cut end of the leaf?

[Maggi Young]

Handy online notes about the various Galanthus species : http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/content/spm?page=2

Some references on the subject from the forum:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1599.0   Hans
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=280.0     Hans


http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5698.0     Dima  ..... I will contact Dima to see if he can share his studies of these with us.


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8339.1997.tb01423.x/abstract   
The leaf anatomy of the genus Galanthus L. (Amaryllidaceae J. St.-Hil.)
AARON P. DAVIS, JOHN R. BARNETT  - for those without the book and access to these online sources ( or willing to pay!)

[Martin Baxendale]

Simon, if it's ikariae then there should be holes in the transverse section caused by large air tubes running up and down inside the leaf, rather than just gaps on the outside caused by ribbing. As Maggi says, a close-up photo of the cut across the leaf showing the inside of the leaf in transverse section would help.

[Martin Baxendale]

If there are no air-tube holes inside the leaf running up and down the length of the leaf then the one thing we can say is that it's not ikariae as it's currently identified and described by the botanists. Which, as you say, Simon, means it's woronowii or another species/sub-species.

[Oakwood]

The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.

Galanthus woronowii

[johnw]

Well I won't be cutting any leaves on the ikariae true here as the bulb has failed to appear.

Ditto Magnet true and S. Arnott; rats damn.

johnw

[Maggi Young]

Thanks Dima! 

[Sinchets]

We tried for a macro shot- it didn't work. We didn't find any macro shots online either to compare with- or shots of the leaf surface of G.ikariae or G.woronowii to compare with. Is G.woronowii also puckered on its upper surface?
If as Dima says it is G.woronowii can he offer an explanation as to why it is growing in Greece?

[Sinchets]

I am also assuming that the cross sections in Dima's post are taken at the base of the leaf- judging from the size of the midveins in some of the slides. As can be seen from the photos I posted the other day our plants at the moment only have a very small leaf rosette. We will need to wait for them to extend more before we can make this kind of cross section. Even then saying x10 works is pushing it a little.
So just because the green spot is variable on these plants from Greece, which also have puckered leaves, the consensus is it has to be a species from a location in NE Turkey and Caucasus? 

[johnw]

I cut leaves on the ikariae Latifolius and Latifolius we had received long ago. No air tubes on any of them.  You have to act quickly as the edges start to weep almost immediately.

It will be interesting to hear what Dima has to say about why Simon's plant should be in Greece.

johnw

[Martin Baxendale]

Simon, all I'm saying is it's either a very atypical ikariae or irkariae sub species, so atypical that the botanists who've studied galanthus would not recognise it as ikariae, or it's another species, most likely woronowii, in which case what it was doing in Greece, growing there naturally or introduced at some point is a matter for debate.

[Martin Baxendale]

If it's woronowii, whether it's truly growing wild in Greece or introduced could only be ascertained by looking for more of the same in that locality and its surrounds.