Spindlestone Surprise/Primrose Warburg

[Ian Y]

Precisely my concern, Leena. With people often finding they can grow one but not the other, it really doesn't help if they don't know which they're receiving.

I agree with Matt, these are after all cultivars so ease of and differing tolerance in cultivation must be a factor. For instance I would find it hard to separate Narcissus 'Craigton Clumper' on purely physical characteristics - it is because of the ease in which it bulks up and flowers so readily that I named it.

[annew]

I'm sure there are lots of similar pairs (or more) of snowdrops which are visually very similar, but if we start lumping them all together as 'similar' it makes naming them a it of a farce. Best to sell them just as yellow snowdrops mixed rather than one or the other. If they are indeed different clones you have only a 50% chance of getting the correct variety!

[emma T]

One grows for me the other doesn't , there fore in my mind they are different 

[Josh Nelson]

One grows for me the other doesn't , there fore in my mind they are different

An important difference as others have noted.

If there are different cultivation requirements, then more information (or knowledge) is needed on this so that people know where to place them or whether perhaps their soil is not as appropriate for one rather than the other.  This, in addition to apparent physical differences in the ovaries (I only have Primrose myself), would suggest they should not be lumped and sold as undifferentiated bulbs.

[Maggi Young]

Sounds like something you 'drop fiends should be raising with Avon 

[Matt T]

Sounds like something you 'drop fiends should be raising with Avon

In the absence of any volunteers, that will be me then...

Will wait for safe delivery of my order first, before I cause a ruckus 

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks, Brian. Glad to see that it was such a good day yesterday - nothing but good reports on social media.

That's good, we are still in recovery, but today had the Norfolk PH Chair and Ann Borrill round the garden to look at 'drops.  Ann says they are obviously different as Spindlestone is much taller in her garden!  I also checked with botanist Richard Hobbs on Sunday at Blacksmiths and he said that  I had remembered correctly and cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference.  I suppose the problem, as with all bulbs, is that the provenance is the most important thing and perhaps someone has (accidentally no doubt) passed on a SS as PB which has snowballed and caused the confusion.

Once 'The Norfolk Eye' has prepared the photos for the Norfolk PH website I expect he will post a link.  It was a lovely day and we met old friends and new, although being behind a stall meant that I had a totally different experience to normal.  I realise who Wheelieneelie is although we didn't actually meet, there were a lot of forumists and lurkers there at least three National Collection Holders (2 snowdrops and one cyclamen) so I am glad that the reports were good.

[annew]

Spent a couple of hours pulling apart some flowers of PW and SS for photographs. Not sure I can see a difference! The two PWs are from different sources. Of course I may have received all three incorrectly named! We need an instant DNA analysis app.  Don't know if there's a way to attach the montage as a larger file so you an study it as a larger picture? In all photos the top two lines are Primrose Warburg and the bottom line is Spindlestone Surprise. Take no notice of size - this depends on the size/maturity of the bulb.
Will check leaves later, it's blowing a hoolie a present and I can't lift the frame lights or take photos outside.

[Maggi Young]

That's an interesting   dissection, Anne.  Are you going to open a couple of the ovaries now - to see what the difference  might be  therein as per  " cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference " ...... ??

Will the cut need to be  horizontal or vertical?  Both, I suppose!

[Cfred72]

Pas assez expert pour voir une différence si ce n'est les ovaires de SS qui sont vers le haut (peut-être pour la photo ?)
Ce que je peux dire en tous cas c'est que cette répétition de dissection est magnifique à regarder 

[Maggi Young]

Pas assez expert pour voir une différence si ce n'est les ovaires de SS qui sont vers le haut (peut-être pour la photo ?)
Ce que je peux dire en tous cas c'est que cette répétition de dissection est magnifique à regarder 

Not expert enough to see a difference except the SS ovaries that are up (perhaps for the photo?)
What I can say in any case is that this dissection repetition is stunning to look at.

[Cfred72]

Maggi thank you, it seems that the translator mixture a little words

[Matt T]

Well done, Anne. You have some patience!

For each of these, PW1, PW2, SS - did you start with a single bulb of each and bulk them up vegetatively? There is an interesting range of variation in the inner markings within each selection. PW2 appears to be most consistent within itself. However, if these were not labelled, I'd be hard pressed to separate them out as you have them arranged here.

The spathe length appears to be correct for SS and PW2, but some of the spathes on PW1 could be intermediate?

There is a difference in the bearing of the flower on the scape in SS, as Fred suggests.

To my eye, PW1 appears as though it might be closer to SS than PW2 (but still a lot of internal variation)?

EDIT: looking at the inner markings again, those of PW1 and PW2 appear to conform with the description in The Book (apical 1/3) as does SS (apical 1/4). In your photo the inner markings are definitely slightly smaller for SS. But they're all a bit of a mixture in terms of the rounded vs. pointed ends.

They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne?  I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.

Similarly, under your conditions, is their any difference in height?

Of course, we cannot see crucial differences in their relative tolerance of different growing conditions. I'm not sure that anyone has pinned down the factors that lead to their success with one plant but not the other (and clearly there is an overlap in their tolerance as some folk succeed with both).

Even if they are physically inseparable, their provenance is important as a named clone can only arise and be named once.

All of this could be hugely complicated if mis-named plants have been muddled and passed around for some time.

[Matt T]

I suppose the problem, as with all bulbs, is that the provenance is the most important thing and perhaps someone has (accidentally no doubt) passed on a SS as PB which has snowballed and caused the confusion.

Depending on how long ago and how widely they've been spread around, it could be an almost impossible task to separate out true stocks of each.

If Avon can discern no difference, they've perhaps been victims of such misnaming.

North Green state that they are "quite distinct when they are grown near to each other", so their plants might serve as a useful reference collection for others to separate out any imposters? As much as I enjoy these ID puzzles, this is NOT a task I'm volunteering myself for! 

†Other suppliers are available.

[annew]

Well done, Anne. You have some patience!

For each of these, PW1, PW2, SS - did you start with a single bulb of each and bulk them up vegetatively? There is an interesting range of variation in the inner markings within each selection. PW2 appears to be most consistent within itself. However, if these were not labelled, I'd be hard pressed to separate them out as you have them arranged here.

The spathe length appears to be correct for SS and PW2, but some of the spathes on PW1 could be intermediate?

There is a difference in the bearing of the flower on the scape in SS, as Fred suggests.

To my eye, PW1 appears as though it might be closer to SS than PW2 (but still a lot of internal variation)?

EDIT: looking at the inner markings again, those of PW1 and PW2 appear to conform with the description in The Book (apical 1/3) as does SS (apical 1/4). In your photo the inner markings are definitely slightly smaller for SS. But they're all a bit of a mixture in terms of the rounded vs. pointed ends.

They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne?  I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.

Similarly, under your conditions, is their any difference in height?

Of course, we cannot see crucial differences in their relative tolerance of different growing conditions. I'm not sure that anyone has pinned down the factors that lead to their success with one plant but not the other (and clearly there is an overlap in their tolerance as some folk succeed with both).

Even if they are physically inseparable, their provenance is important as a named clone can only arise and be named once.

All of this could be hugely complicated if mis-named plants have been muddled and passed around for some time.

PW1 came as a single bulb from Ireland. PW2 came as 2 bulbs from a forum friend. SS came as a single bulb. They have all been chipped.
The different bearing of the SS ovaries is almost certainly due to the fact that the SS flowers were newly opened, not yet hanging properly, which suggests my SS are slightly later flowering than the PWs. This may be however due to the fact that the first lot of flowers I picked got mixed up and I had to start again, having already picked the most mature flowers!
I don't think there is any difference in height, this being largely dependant again on the maturity of the bulb, but I'll compare the open grown ones later.