Spindlestone Surprise/Primrose Warburg

[Matt T]

What is not in the book, of course, nor anywhere else I have seen, is the report from the  Northumbrian lady who gave a yellow from Spindlestone to Primrose Warburg. That would meant that the  two would be VERY closely related  but that  route to Mrs Warburg's garden has not been recounted anywhere in the 'drop literature, I think.  Perhaps the 'inner circle' is not so  well informed as it  might prefer to think!

Fascinating. Once again, Maggi you're excellent connections prove to be invaluable in shedding some light. The more examples you look at, the harder it is to seperate them by physical characteristics, so I had wondered whether such a thing might have occurred.

It will be interesting to see what else we discover on the subject.

[ChrisB]

I think that the sister of the woman who discovered the yellow snowdrop, and another member of our Belford group know a lot about this phenomenon.  I will ask if either knows if and when such a snowdrop was sent to Primrose at our next meeting.... And I'll report back if I find anything more out, but I'm not a drop fan really and certainly have not read the literature....

[Maggi Young]

It was from personal conversations with the ladies Christine mentions that  Ian became aware of a gift of a Spindlestone yellow  having been given to  Mrs Warburg. No reason to doubt their  memories. 

[ChrisB]

Spoke to Phillipa yesterday. She says PW went up to see her and was taken to see all the yellows during the visit. At the end as she was leaving Phillipa gave her one of the yellow snowdrops which she took home. Apparently there was a label beside PWs yellow saying PC, and as they couldn't figure out what or who it referred to, called it Primrose Warberg.  Phillips also commented that Spindlestone Surprise was one Ron McBeath named.  Her view is that they are variable and should all just be called the Northumberland snowdrop.

[Matt T]

Interesting, Chris. That all fits with what we know and has been published. The only question remaining: 'Spindlestone Warburg' or 'Primrose Surprise' (we ready need a 'tongue in cheek' smilie!)

[johnralphcarpenter]

Spoke to Phillipa yesterday. She says PW went up to see her and was taken to see all the yellows during the visit. At the end as she was leaving Phillipa gave her one of the yellow snowdrops which she took home. Apparently there was a label beside PWs yellow saying PC, and as they couldn't figure out what or who it referred to, called it Primrose Warberg.  Phillips also commented that Spindlestone Surprise was one Ron McBeath named.  Her view is that they are variable and should all just be called the Northumberland snowdrop.

So is Phillipa PC?

[ChrisB]

She didn't say, John, but her initials are PC....

[annew]

The plot thickens...

[Maggi Young]

The plot thickens...

Really? I thought it was thinning out nicely.

[annew]

 

[annew]

Interesting, Chris. That all fits with what we know and has been published. The only question remaining: 'Spindlestone Warburg' or 'Primrose Surprise' (we ready need a 'tongue in cheek' smilie!)

Surely Spindlestone Surprise is the name with priority, if we have to choose?

[Josh Nelson]

can one un-immortalise?!

[Matt T]

Indeed, if one plant has been named twice. As Anne says, the first name will take precedence.

[Brian Ellis]

Surely Spindlestone Surprise is the name with priority, if we have to choose?

An interesting thought Anne, I was always told that with bulbs provenance is everything and following this discussion I have been thinking to myself how it just depends where people have had the bulbs from and it's 'genealogy' if you like.  I do know good growers who have both and will tell you that they are quite different in their garden either from height, shape or flowering time and these are people who have been growing snowdrops for a lot longer than many of us.  I think it is quite possible that there are two seperate family lines or two clones and the established growers have obtained bulbs that do exhibit differences, however, over time the birds and the bees could have muddled the situation with bulbs being passed on which could easily be hybrids of the two.  Jim Almond was talking at the Cottage Garden Snowdrop Group Day on Saturday about the early flowering snowdrops and how he still grows many that are now lumped under the term Galanthus reginae-olgae but keeps their original name in case they are ever split out again.  This seems to me a very sensible approach, know that there is a possibility that it is wrongly labelled but keep the name you have it as and enjoy the flowers.  If you have either SS, PW, SW or PS it doesn't really matter if you like that flower

[Rick Goodenough]

A couple of observations on this most interesting discussion as the plot thins or thickens, readers' choice. First, I often see ‘Spindlestone Surprise’ referenced in comparative terms as larger and most often taller than PM. Also we frequently see comments that folks can grow one variety well, but not the other. So there are a fair number of anecdotal observations that imply the two are not identical.

Second, we just read that Phillipa gave Primrose Warburg a yellow or a Spindlestone yellow on her departure. That by itself does not mean it was the same cultivar as ‘Spindlestone Surprise’, unless ‘Spindlestone Surprise’ was the only yellow that Phillipa was growing at the time. Do we know this to be the case? If so, then the case for same plant seems a bit more airtight.  Yet, the question remains as to whether PW(the cultivar) is a similar chance seedling originating in Phillipa’s garden or even Primrose Warburg’s garden. 

However, if we know Phillipa was growing multiple yellow cultivars, then the identity of the yellow she gave Primrose that day becomes less certain and gets us back to Brian’s point, better to keep them as separate cultivars under possible a group name.    Rick