Spindlestone Surprise/Primrose Warburg

[annew]

That's an interesting   dissection, Anne.  Are you going to open a couple of the ovaries now - to see what the difference  might be  therein as per  " cutting through the receptacle will also show the difference " ...... ??

Will the cut need to be  horizontal or vertical?  Both, I suppose!

Crumbs, another job!

[Maggi Young]

Crumbs, another job!

  oh, errrr.....  for a minion, perhaps? 

[Carolyn Walker]

They do not seem to be any different in flowering time with you Anne?  I'm not sure if other people's statements that PW is a couple of weeks later than SS are based on observation of the two plants growing side-by-side in the same conditions as you have there.

I have 'Primrose Warburg' and 'Spindlestone Surprise' very near each other in similar conditions, and SS blooms earlier.  It is in bloom now.  Avon is the source for both.  I don't know about height.  I will have to measure when they are both out.  I have another patch of PW from a non-Avon source, but it is in much more shade and is also not in bloom yet.  Here are current photos of SS.

[Alan_b]

I wonder if we are missing the point here?  It's not whether Spindlestone Surprise and Primrose Warburg are different now but whether they can be kept different in future.  They both look extremely similar so it is very easy to get one confused with the other and once that happens you start getting Spindlestone Surprise distributed as Primrose Warburg and vice versa.  A similar situation has already arisen with some of the Greatorex doubles.  These look quite similar and, even if you can tell them apart, there is no universal agreement about which one is named which, presumably because people have made mistakes in the past.  Other cultivars can exist in different forms under the same name; Hagen said he had multiple forms of one snowdrop, was it Barnes?

I imagine Avon Bulbs have effectively admitted defeat with respect to not getting the two snowdrops confused and that is why they now list them together as if they were a single entity.       

[Diane Whitehead]

I remember seeing an RHS trial of a purple-leaved berberis.  I don't remember its name.  A request had gone out for nurseries to send in what they were selling as Berberis "X", and it was surprising how they varied.  A decision was made as to which were true to their name.

Could this be done with mixed-up snowdrops?  I would hope that the several National Collections would have the correct plants.

[Matt T]

Other cultivars can exist in different forms under the same name; Hagen said he had multiple forms of one snowdrop, was it Barnes?   

By definition there cannot be more than one form of a cultivar. They are either the original cultivar or they are something else, in which case they should not offered under an incorrect cultivar name - this way leads to more confusion such as we have with PW/SS. Plants from a seed strain can share a grex/group name, (i.e. Hiemalis Group) which is different to, but may give rise to a single clone being selected for naming as a cultivar (i.e. Hiemalis Group 'Barnes').

I wonder if we are missing the point here?  It's not whether Spindlestone Surprise and Primrose Warburg are different now but whether they can be kept different in future.  They both look extremely similar so it is very easy to get one confused with the other...

The point is to pin down the definitive characteristics of each cultivar so they can be kept distinct in the future. The Book sets out some characteristics, but there appear to be others which may also be helpful.

I imagine Avon Bulbs have effectively admitted defeat with respect to not getting the two snowdrops confused and that is why they now list them together as if they were a single entity.       

Are they selling them under the correct name? Why SS and not PW? The photograph on their website (which may not be of their own plants) shows characteristics that fit with PW (spathe longer than pedicle) and SS (an ovary with a 2:3 ratio). If they're only going to offer one, why mix two stocks that they've previously had under two names? Offer one or the other, whichever is believed to be correct, but don't mix them up further and potentially exacerbate the existing problem.

Through the collective knowledge and effort of Forumists here we may be able to advance our understanding of the distinctiveness of these cultivars that will help to clear up the mess we seem to be in. We're lucky to have some resources that may help in this (i.e. a photograph of the original clump of PW in The Book, North Green appear to hold plants of good provenance etc.) The longer this is left the more difficult it will be.

[Matt T]

I have 'Primrose Warburg' and 'Spindlestone Surprise' very near each other in similar conditions, and SS blooms earlier.  It is in bloom now.  Interestingly Avon is the source for both.  I don't know about height.  I will have to measure when they are both out.  I have another patch of PW from a non-Avon source, but it is in much more shade and is also not in bloom yet.  Here are current photos of SS.

It would be interesting to see photos of both the acquisitions you have as Primrose Warburg when they are in flower please, Carolyn.

Your Spindlestone Surprise interests me because the spathe is long and I have just measured the ovary on your photo and got 14 x 21mm = 2:3. These are a mix of characteristics between Primrose Warburg and Spindlestone Surprise!

[Leena]

The thing which interests me in these two is if the other is more hardy or vigorous in northern climates than the other. Have I understood correctly that SS originates from more north than PW? I will have to buy PW next summer to compare them here (it was in Dryad summer list last summer, I hope it will be there also this year).

[Brian Ellis]

Through the collective knowledge and effort of Forumists here we may be able to advance our understanding of the distinctiveness of these cultivars that will help to clear up the mess we seem to be in. We're lucky to have some resources that may help in this (i.e. a photograph of the original clump of PW in The Book, North Green appear to hold plants of good provenance etc.) The longer this is left the more difficult it will be.

I quite agree Matt, don't get me wrong, but in the meantime let's just enjoy our plants   If people are growing both and can see there is a difference in time of flowering/ height or whatever then that can be nothing but good.  It is down to the botanists etc to clear this up, all we can do is offer our own observations.

Offer one or the other, whichever is believed to be correct, but don't mix them up further and potentially exacerbate the existing problem.

Absolutely

[Ding Dong]

Hi all - we have been following this thread, and Alan is going to write something out for me to post here when he gets time - it's very hectic here getting things ready for sales and sending out all of your orders!!!  Matt - yours was sent out on Monday, so you should be receiving it any day.

[Alan_b]

By definition there cannot be more than one form of a cultivar....

Absolutely and I did not mean to imply otherwise.  But sometimes there are different snowdrops being circulated under the same cultivar name - and I'm sure this problem is not confined to snowdrops.  I think we should treat expensive snowdrops as one would expensive antiques and care very much about the provenance of the ones we buy - but few others think likewise.

[Maggi Young]

Thanks, Maxine!

[Maggi Young]

What is not in the book, of course, nor anywhere else I have seen, is the report from the  Northumbrian lady who gave a yellow from Spindlestone to Primrose Warburg. That would meant that the  two would be VERY closely related  but that  route to Mrs Warburg's garden has not been recounted anywhere in the 'drop literature, I think.  Perhaps the 'inner circle' is not so  well informed as it  might prefer to think!

[mark smyth]

I heard a whisper at the weekend that it may have been shared by one person to another and the second person named it also

[annew]

It would not surprise me to find the two are the same clone. Until then , I will keep my acquisitions separate. Hurry up with that DNA testing app, someone!