Rosemary Burnham hybrids

[loes]

I always thought a virescent snowdrop had green on the middle of the outer petals,not just the tips.

[Tim Ingram]

Thanks for the link to Carolyn's article Alan - it's very nice to see snowdrops through another's eyes like that and it is so beautifully written. I like to think of them in the same way in a garden setting with other woodland plants (see '10 Year's On. Celebrating Ten Years of the Limerick Garden Plants Group' - a collection of essays edited by J. Dennison and J. Baker). I can see that the Myddelton House Snowdrop Day this coming year might create some difficult choices but I shall be looking out for a virescent variety to plant near to 'Cowhouse  Green' 

[Maggi Young]

I always thought a virescent snowdrop had green on the middle of the outer petals,not just the tips.

You and Alan, may well be correct, Loes - but I am sure I am not the only innocent passer-by who just enjoys the flowers and who, when we see a flower with green on the outers  on a plant that normally has white outers- we may "assume" that virescent - with its green connotations- applies to those flowers.  Something which could do with clarification for those of us less steeped in the white fever, perhaps, to make the subject more accessible.

I suppose "jargon" makes problems in every field!

[Rick Goodenough]

Some wisdom there Maggi, in your observation, "Though as we might infer from the quote made earlier, there may be some that are happy for some obfuscation to prevail."    Rick

[Maggi Young]

Yes, Rick, I was thinking of the quotes that it takes the ownership of "hundreds of 'drops to make a true galanthophile"and the repeated talk of "true galanthophiles" and "experts"  - seems to me there are a lot of folks trying to "keep" this interest to themselves - a regrettable habit that is can be seen to repeated with some growers or other plants too - "I'll give you this plant - but only if  you not put it on the show bench"- yes, really!!  Thank goodness these people are in the minority!

[Carolyn Walker]

It is odd that the term virescent is used a lot in snowdrop circles without being clearly defined anywhere that I can find.  Carolyn is right to press us on this issue (although she clearly has her own idea of what virescent constitutes http://www.hardyplant.org/articles/Confessions%20of%20a%20Galanthophile.pdf ). 

When I wrote the article (thanks for linking to it Alan and for your kind comment Tim), I thought virescent meant green shading or striping on the outer segments not just a green mark on the tips.  However, when I started to consider investing in a virescent, I discovered that I wanted substantial green striping outside and a solid green inner mark---your definition Alan.  Then when I decided to make the list of virescents, I found what Alan found: that there is no clear definition and that snowdrops from green-tipped to solid green and everything in between are referred to as virescent.

The list appears at Reply #38, and I have been adding cultivars as members (Richard, Brian, Alan, and Hagen) have suggested them.  It would be great to limit the list to cultivars that are available for sale somewhere, but I have no way of determining that.  If someone wants to suggest some snowdrops to be purged on that basis that would be great.  Brian, I could not find 'Jade Feather', there is a G. nivalis 'Jade' with green shading on the outers.

[Matt Bishop]

At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.

These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.

This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.

But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.

Interestingly when the  gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.

I hope this wasn't too long winded!

 

[Maggi Young]

Hi Matt,  thanks for this detailed explanation.  I see that I have fallen into a trap of making assumptions
( something one should never do, I know!    ) and got quite the wrong end of this green stick. Very useful to have this clarification from you for a term that I think may have been confusing quite a few of us.

[emma T]

Very helpful

[Uwe]

 many thanks,Matt !!!

[Hagen Engelmann]

Matt, here in Germany we use your kind of classification. But the world is wide.......

[Rick Goodenough]

Very helpful Matt, and your point about giving us the language to wrap around these ideas is particularly insightful. Rick

[Alan_b]

Thanks from me too, Matt.  No pressure, but I am eagerly awaiting the publication of 'Snowdrops 2' where I'm sure issues such as this will be dealt with. 

 

[Carolyn Walker]

I hope this wasn't too long winded!

Thanks so much, Matt, for answering my plea for a definition, and one that makes perfect sense after spending so much time looking at green snowdrops over the last week.  Your response was only as long as it needed to be.  Now I just need to find the time to apply it to my list. 

[johnw]

What a lucky bunch we are to have the Galanthus Cognescenti so involved and willing to share their vast knowledge!  Mind you were not the only lovers of a particular Genus on this site to be so blessed.

johnw - +5c, rainfall well past 4"..........low pressure system stuck fast here.