Rosemary Burnham hybrids

[Brian Ellis]

Brian, I could not find 'Jade Feather', there is a G. nivalis 'Jade' with green shading on the outers.

Thank you Matt, your insight is greatly appreciated by us all I'm sure.

Carolyn you won't find 'Jade Feather' it is a recent find and there are very few in existence at the moment, I included it for completeness.  Hopefully in three or four years time it will be available from somewhere (?) and we'll have a photo of it from whoever is lucky enough to get it.

[Carolyn Walker]

At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.

These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.

This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.

But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.

Interestingly when the  gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.

I have taken the original list at Reply # 38 and divided it into the categories set forth in Matt’s definition of virescent (quoted above so everyone can look at it and the list together).  I have seen only a handful of these cultivars in person so I would be grateful for comments, corrections, and additions to the list.


Virescent (almost entirely green inners and outer shading running from the base):

Type: G. nivalis ‘Virescens’

Alpha Series (photos from Ru later in the thread)

'Castle Green Dragon' G. plicatus (formerly ‘Anne’s Green Stripe’)

'Emerald Isle' G. ikariae  (not sure from the photos, this might be a cultivar where the outer shading fades as the flower matures)

'Grakes Green Bells' G. nivalis (Valentin Wijnen)

'Greek Olive' G. graecus (Dimitri, is this the official name?)

 ‘Green Mile’

'Green Shadow' G. plicatus

‘Green Tear’

‘Green Zebra’ G. nivalis

GRÜNER FRÜHAUFSTEHER   ( edit by maggi : Hagens -  http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8667.msg234236#msg234236  and pix of these and others of Hagen's Greens : http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/galanthus/bestand/index.htm

‘Grüner Splitter’  (Hagen’s, not in the trade?)

'Kryptonite' G. elwesii

'Margaret Biddulph' G. elwesii

'Morgana' G. elwesii

‘Rosemary Burnham’ G. elwesii

‘York Minster’ G. elwesii


Intermediates/Part Virescent (diffuse inner mark not confined to apex and central outer mark not confined to apex):

Type: G. nivalis ‘Greenish’

‘Cowhouse Green’

'Green Arrow'

‘Hugh Mackenzie’ G. nivalis

'Rushmere Green'

'Selina Cords' G. nivalis (hard to see inners in photos)

'Witchwood' G. nivalis


Green-tipped: (outer mark on apex and typical inner mark at apex):

Type: G. nivalis ‘Viridapice’?

'Federkleid' G. nivalis 

'Federschwingen' G. nivalis 

‘Green Light’ G. nivalis


Not sure where to put:

‘Green Brush’ G. elwesii  (solid inner mark but outer mark on apex only)

[Alan_b]

Not sure where to put:

‘Green Brush’ G. elwesii  (solid inner mark but outer mark on apex only)

Since it's not that unusual for G. elwesii to have a solid inner mark I would not have any qualms about putting it with the green-tipped ones.  I would then 'forget' about those because there are more than you can count!  But well-done, Carolyn, for sorting out the others.

[Hagen Engelmann]

here you can see the three groups with different green: http://www.engelmannii.de/bilder/startseite/snowdropclassification.jpg
It was part of my snowdrop lecture at GALA2013

[Alan_b]

I like your classification system, Hagen, and it deserves to be more widely adopted.  But do you mean we should ignore the inner marks when classifying the greens?

Also, why has poculiform become 'poculiforme' with an 'e' on the end (which appears to be Portuguese)? 

[Hagen Engelmann]

Always a pleasure, Alan.
With other galanthophiles' I'm able to speak about snowdrops.
But we, we speak about letters.

[Alan_b]

Oh, but it's the same thing really, Hagen.  If you're not interested in the detail then all snowdrops look alike.  But if you pay attention to whether a snowdrop has green marks on the end of the outer petals then you also pay attention to a word with an 'e' on the end - or I do, at least.

[Maggi Young]

It must be remembered that this forum is populated by folks from all over the globe. Only some of us have English as a first language. Many do not have it as even a second language, but perhaps as a third or fourth.

Different languages address words differently and so there may be occasions when, for instance, poculiform is rendered as poculiforme - this is a reflection of the international nature of the forum. In the same way as in English we use colour, while others use color ........ it's natural variation, but just  in words, not plants!

[Maggi Young]

At the time when we wrote Snowdrops our understanding of the term virescent (ie shaded green) applied to a slightly broader spectrum of cultivars in terms of the markings on both whorls of segments so at the time included things like 'Cowhouse Green' and 'Greenish' and would also have been used to describe the state of greenness seen in more recent cultivars such as 'Hugh Mackenzie' and 'Wichwood' and many others. But as examples these plants have been chosen carefully as they illustrate a sort of intermediate what, these days, between I regard as true virescents on a sliding scale that exists almost as a continuum through to straight forwards 'green tips'. Back in 2001 this continuum didn't really exist as their were relatively few cultivars in which to observe it. Only with the huge influx of such cultivars with their often subtle differences in marking on both segment types has its existence become visible but only when you stand back and look at the markings of both segment types in a complete spectrum of variants within a species or even more broadly than that.

These days, with our massively broader range of snowdrops with green marked outer segments, the emergent pattern means that the sensible use of the term virescent is subtly different. Alan hit the nail on the head by referencing the original clone 'Virescens' which fits perfectly with what what I think of these days as truly virescent snowdrops. There is an almost perfect relationship between entirely green inner segments, save for the margin and a slightly paler zone (though not always) almost at the base and the occurrence of outer segment markings which run from the base of the segment, however far towards the apex. This feature is not always apparent in a mature flower as in the course of the segments elongating, as they do, from the base, the chloroplasts (green cells) become less densely spaced and therefore less visible, the paler resulting green colouration, more difficult to see. To summarise, I think that the term virescent would be sensibly conserved only for use for plants with show this feature, also seen in the likes of 'Green Mile' and a good many of the superb clones Hagen has been showing.

This leaves us to consider the clones which sit somewhere in the middle for which, I believe, the 'type' could be regarded as G. nivalis 'Greenish' for which we currently lack a proper term. I've tended to refer to them in talks and so on, as Part Virescent, and more recently as Intermediate greens or simply as Intermediates in the context of their greenness. In these, the inner segment markings are usually not simply confined to the inner segment apex as a straight forward V or U mark, but often cover a larger area, running to the base but critically are not solid and of a single shade of green but, to varying degrees, diffuse, like the marking in G. John Gray'. In these plants their is a strong association with outer segment markings that concentrate around the central portion of the segment, neither running to the base like a virescent, nor being confined towards the apex like a green tip.

But its important to point out here that, whilst based upon what happens in nature, this sort of classification (or forming of artificial pigeon holes) also represents what usually happens. In other words there are exceptions that don't quite fit in any of this trio without a little explanation. But it does, at least achieve, a language for discussing plants with the most characters in common in context with each other.

Interestingly when the  gene mutation for outer segment greenness arises in species known for their predominantly apical inner segment and they produce truly virescent seedlings, the outer segment markings are always associated with an inner segment marking that runs to the base.

Seems some more people need to read Matt's words ! There is an article in The Garden for January 2015 where 'Cowhouse Green' - which I now recognise as more of an intermediate 'drop,since the green marking on the outers are only on the lower parts-  is called "virescent" ....... 

They'll catch up eventually, I suppose!

I'll add as an aside that the pictures in the article are less than stunning. 

[Tim Ingram]

I think the thing is Maggi we all understand snowdrops in part from our own experience of growing them, as much as from a more authoritative one that comes from others who know a good bit more. I only grow 'Cowhouse Green', so I regard this as virescent and so I imagine would most people, since they would compare it with a 'normal' snowdrop. As soon as you start comparing within a group of similar plants then the discrimination becomes more acute. This is not too different to how we assign names to plants in general - the reason is so we can talk about them and understand them more, but it is not an end in itself. 'A rose by any other name... '

[johnralphcarpenter]

So, have I got this right? A non-virescent snowdrop is white with green bits, a virescent snowdrop is green with white bits?

[Tim Ingram]

I don't know Ralph? What do you think  (I should add that now I want to grow more virescent snowdrops so this Forum has worked its magic).

[Mavers]

I find the green snowdrops very appealing.......& will try to get my little brain around Matt's valuable contribution during my morning coffee break.

[Ru]

May be considered a green color base petal?

[Rick Goodenough]

Stunners both, Ru. If I am tracking your ID on your photos correctly, I am guessing both are plicatus. Rick