Crocus trip to Crete from 20 -27 november 2011

[Janis Ruksans]

I have looked for the differences between cartwrightianus and oreocreticus .....
Because I try to understand the remarks from Ibrahim (not that I not believe his remarks ,but it is not fully clear to me)
And I did not find many information in the books I know/have or on the internet. Janis write in his book that oreocreticus grows from aprox. 1100m and not lower. And also only in the east and the middle part of the island . The plants I showed earlier are seen on an elevation of 500metres .So much lower then 1000m and also not in the east and middle of the island. Ibrahim said that the main difference is that the flowers of cartwrightianus stays open during night. That's a main difference , but now I regret that I not look carefully on this difference (maybe because I did not expect oreocreticus there ....)Are there more differences ?
Are there more records from oreocreticus below 1000m or more to the west of Nida plains ?
Is this the first finding of oreocreticus  in that part of the island ?.....And so on ...
Sorry for al these questions but always happy to learn an understand more ....Al reactions on this subject are welcom in this topic or with PM.

I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. I think that best way to separate both is just the habit to keep flowers open in darkness by cartwrightianus and closing by oreocreticus. That I observed invariably in my collection. The hairs in throat can help, too. By materials for Flora of Greece seen by me oreocreticus was found at altitudes from 910 m up to 1900 m (by herbarium samples). On attached picture you can see localities from where oreocreticus is known. Picture is bad as the original file format isn't accepted by Forum, so I printed, marked, scanned and attached. My right hand at present (for around month) not works after surgical treatment, so quality is poor.
Janis

[Gerry Webster]

Kris - More from Mathew: he states that the only populations of C. cartwrightianus known to exist in Crete are near Khania, especially on the Akrotiri peninsula. However this is based on an old observation (1978) so may well be out-of-date.
As regards the 'silvery' exterior of the flowers of C. oreocreticus - some forms of C. cartwrightianus I grow could be described in this way; it depends upon how one interprets colour terms. Mathew states that he found plants in Crete with 'silvery' exteriors but in all other respects they were typical C. cartwrightianus. 
Furthermore, although it is true  that the flowers of  C. cartwrightianus remain open at night, in my experience this is only the case for flowers which have completely expanded; 'young' flowers can remain  partially closed.
I remain convinced - following Mathew -  that the reliable way of distinguishing between the species is by the presence or absence of hairs in the throat.

[Janis Ruksans]

Crocus cartwrightianus distribution on Crete (by Flora of Greece materials). Altitudes for this species are between 2 m to 850 m.
Janis

[krisderaeymaeker]

Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
ibrahim

That is exactly what I thought  Ibrahim  !  You have to forgive me, I always wants to learn 

Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
the crocuses which are in your photos;
They have silver or skin color on outer petals
They have slender pointed petals
The style was just at the anthers level or a little longer
The shape of flowers is slender
All of these features shows that they belong to C. oreocreticus.
I don’t know How they are distribute in Crete! and no idea for hair in throath.
ibrahim

Many many thanks Ibrahim ! I appreciate the effort you made to help me with this !  This is so interesting and helpful to me. Much appreciate it.  And this is also one of the many great advantages of this forum. It is so nice that we can discussed things like that and learn much about our plants ! Now things getting clear to me ....

[krisderaeymaeker]

On attached picture you can see localities from where oreocreticus is known. Picture is bad as the original file format isn't accepted by Forum, so I printed, marked, scanned and attached. My right hand at present (for around month) not works after surgical treatment, so quality is poor.
Janis

Many many thanks Janis . This map is also very helpful ! I even have interest in getting this map in the original format.
I send you a PM about this matter ...
Wish you al the best with the healing of your hand !

[krisderaeymaeker]

I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. Janis

Janis do you know if there is somebody who keeps a database of al the known habitats of Crocus ? Maybe that would be interesting ? For Colchicum they do  .....

[krisderaeymaeker]

By materials for Flora of Greece seen by me oreocreticus was found at altitudes from 910 m up to 1900 m (by herbarium samples). Janis

So maybe this is a new find ? We find them below 600m ( have to look for more accurate data but certainly below 600m)
Don't know if there are other people who find them at this altitude ...

[krisderaeymaeker]

I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. Janis

Janis , we find them also on the Nida plains . We did'nt go to Cave of Zeus ...

[ronm]

For Colchicum they do  .....

Hi Kris,

Enjoying this thread very much.
Forgive my ignorance but ... who do for Colchicum, and where please?

[krisderaeymaeker]

I remain convinced - following Mathew -  that the reliable way of distinguishing between the species is by the presence or absence of hairs in the throat.

Great you help me on this matter Gerry ! Maybe I have to look very close to my pictures ? But I suppose that 's to late now (pictures maybe don't show this details)   and next time I have to look closer when we are in the field ...

[krisderaeymaeker]

Kris - More from Mathew: he states that the only populations of C. cartwrightianus known to exist in Crete are near Khania, especially on the Akrotiri peninsula. However this is based on an old observation (1978) so may well be out-of-date.

That is about the same as the map from Janis shows us Gerry ...
However we did search whole day on the Akrotiri peninsula and did'nt find them overthere ....But is a big area ...
But it become very clear to me , we could not see cartwrightianus ....

[krisderaeymaeker]

Crocus cartwrightianus distribution on Crete (by Flora of Greece materials). Altitudes for this species are between 2 m to 850 m.
Janis

This is once more another  evidence Janis , we did not see cartwrightianus but oreocreticus ...
Many thanks for this map .

[krisderaeymaeker]

Hi Kris,
Enjoying this thread very much.
Forgive my ignorance but ... who do for Colchicum, and where please?

Thanks Ron , Karin Person from Sweden does .

[krisderaeymaeker]

Just want to know that I changes names in my first postings ....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9780.0

[krisderaeymaeker]

Now that this matter on cartwrightianus and oreocreticus is solved ... we can go further with this trip.
And first - before we search for Crocus  boryi - I want to show you some Sternbergia sicula from the east ...