Crocus trip to Crete from 20 -27 november 2011

[Hendrik Van Bogaert]

And the last series of tournefortii

What you think of the yellow one ?

Wonderfull pictures Chris!
Concerning the yellow one: in the south-east of Crete C. tournefortii grows together with C. boryi and they hybridises each other.
if this pictures are taken in the south-east, probably this crocus should be C. boryi???
Hendrik - Belgium

[Gerry Webster]

Kris - I too have wondered about the identity of your yellow crocus. According to Brian Mathew, the only member of series Laevigatae which can sometimes have yellow flowers (externally) is C. laevigatus. Were your plants isolated or part of a larger population? I am rather doubtful that it is  C. boryi x tournefortii - since all the plants I have seen (in photos & in the flesh) of that hybrid have been white. However, I suppose something new is always possible.

[krisderaeymaeker]

Wonderfull pictures Chris!
Concerning the yellow one: in the south-east of Crete C. tournefortii grows together with C. boryi and they hybridises each other.
if this pictures are taken in the south-east, probably this crocus should be C. boryi???
Hendrik - Belgium

Hello Hendrik , thanks for your compliment. This pictures are taken in the north-east. At this place not any sign of something that looks like boryi to me .Al pictures are from the same area and in this population al flowering Crocus I would identify as tournefortii .But I agree that it is very difficult sometimes .I think we only find boryi growing in the sout-east.  But I am not an expert and maybe I am wrong ...

[krisderaeymaeker]

Kris - I too have wondered about the identity of your yellow crocus. According to Brian Mathew, the only member of series Laevigatae which can sometimes have yellow flowers (externally) is C. laevigatus. Were your plants isolated or part of a larger population? I am rather doubtful that it is  C. boryi x tournefortii - since all the plants I have seen (in photos & in the flesh) of that hybrid have been white. However, I suppose something new is always possible.

Hello Gerry .It was not a very big population and al this plants where growing on one hillside .They only grew near the road , higher up there was nearly nothing.
In the morning we find few plants in the same area but much lower .
My first idea of the yellow one was also laevigatus but I could not find other plants in this population that I could identify as laevigatus ...
So I did had questions to ..... As I say , for me the only boryi we did see was in the south-east. But I am not an expert and anny comment is welcome !   

[tonyg]

And the last series of tournefortii

What you think of the yellow one ?

If Crocus laevigatus can have white, yellow backed flowers, why not also a rare form of Crocus tournefortii?   BUT    All the Crocus tournefortii you have pictured have flowers open or partly so, typical for a plant where the flowers stay open in poor weather and at night.  The yellow backed white are very closed, despite being well developed above the leaves, ie not 'just emerged'.  So I think these are likely Crocus laevigatus, of which I have seen other, similar forms in cultivation.

[krisderaeymaeker]

If Crocus laevigatus can have white, yellow backed flowers, why not also a rare form of Crocus tournefortii?   BUT    All the Crocus tournefortii you have pictured have flowers open or partly so, typical for a plant where the flowers stay open in poor weather and at night.  The yellow backed white are very closed, despite being well developed above the leaves, ie not 'just emerged'.  So I think these are likely Crocus laevigatus, of which I have seen other, similar forms in cultivation.

Thanks Tony for your comment ! Then maybe it was a mixed population anyway ? Is it possible that only this one laevigatus  was growing in a tournefortii population ? They also told me that laevigatus is more or less confined to the west and middle part of the island ?Here we are in the north-east. This is maybe a good excuse to go back for closer examination 

[tonyg]

Kris.  Maybe it is a question of timing.  What would you see if you were there two weeks later (or another year later)?  Perhaps there will be many Crocus laevigatus later and few Crocus tournefortii.  I heard of someone who revisited a known population of white Crocus goulimyi to find more blues than whites.

[krisderaeymaeker]

Kris.  Maybe it is a question of timing.  What would you see if you were there two weeks later (or another year later)?  Perhaps there will be many Crocus laevigatus later and few Crocus tournefortii.  I heard of someone who revisited a known population of white Crocus goulimyi to find more blues than whites.

Thanks Tony . Yes ,could be the right explanation . But nevertheless  , I feel the need to go back again 

[daveyp1970]

Thanks Tony . Yes ,could be the right explanation . But nevertheless  , I feel the need to go back again 

If it is laevigatus it would be interesting to know if there are hybrids.

[krisderaeymaeker]

If it is laevigatus it would be interesting to know if there are hybrids.

Yes sure Davey , more investigation on this subject would be nice....

[krisderaeymaeker]

  Kris very nice crosi from wild
Thanks for sharing with us.
I think the second crocus is C. oreocreticus
With my best wishes..
ibrahim

I have looked for the differences between cartwrightianus and oreocreticus .....
Because I try to understand the remarks from Ibrahim (not that I not believe his remarks ,but it is not fully clear to me)
And I did not find many information in the books I know/have or on the internet. Janis write in his book that oreocreticus grows from aprox. 1100m and not lower. And also only in the east and the middle part of the island . The plants I showed earlier are seen on an elevation of 500metres .So much lower then 1000m and also not in the east and middle of the island. Ibrahim said that the main difference is that the flowers of cartwrightianus stays open during night. That's a main difference , but now I regret that I not look carefully on this difference (maybe because I did not expect oreocreticus there ....)Are there more differences ?
Are there more records from oreocreticus below 1000m or more to the west of Nida plains ?
Is this the first finding of oreocreticus  in that part of the island ?.....And so on ...
Sorry for al these questions but always happy to learn an understand more ....Al reactions on this subject are welcom in this topic or with PM. 

[Gerry Webster]

Kris - according to Mathew the most significant morphological difference between C. cartwrightianus & C. oreocreticus is that the former has a ring of hairs in the throat. He also claims that the latter is not found below 1000m.

[krisderaeymaeker]

Kris - according to Mathew the most significant morphological difference between C. cartwrightianus & C. oreocreticus is that the former has a ring of hairs in the throat. He also claims that the latter is not found below 1000m.

Thanks Gerry , did'nt look for that difference to    But it is at least something we can have an eye on it in the near future.

[I.S.]

 Hi Kris,
I am attaching the link of Kees Jan to see how does iC. cartwrightianus looks in mainland!
http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Europe/Greece-Peloponnese-and-Attica/15285711_8Db9Kw#!i=1151001672&k=QfBdwVh

()I couldn’t attaché correctly here. Just after pages 53)

[I.S.]

Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
the crocuses which are in your photos;
They have silver or skin color on outer petals
They have slender pointed petals
The style was just at the anthers level or a little longer
The shape of flowers is slender
All of these features shows that they belong to C. oreocreticus.
I don’t know How they are distribute in Crete! and no idea for hair in throath.

ibrahim