I wanted root alpines in spring from softwood or last seasons growth?

[newstart]

I wanted to root in the majority common alpines from cuttings such as Veronica, Silene ,Armeria, Artemesia, Erinus, Mazus, Lithospernum and other relatively common types. I noticed when it comes to spring I have some rooting powder left from doing conifers. It is a 0.43% w/w 1-naphthylacetic acid powder formulation. Is this way to strong for a softwood cutting or general alpines. I read that most cuttings produce optimum hormones for rooting in summer but hormone is used only when you try to root subjects out of season. I read the LD hills book mentioned in my other threads.  Does the alpine society or the scottish rock garden forum publish a 'rooting species early with hormone' article may be? It would be great if people could mention Genus and species which would root with hormone from mid-march and whether from softwood growth or last seasons growth. If enough of us contribute we could make a reasonable list.

Hope this is a reasonable request and a sensible question and thanks!

[Maggi Young]

David, from my own experience and my knowledge of what friends do, I can say I don't know anyone who uses hormone dips or powders for rooting Alpines.

For early rooting I can only suggest good light and perhaps some "bottom heat" in a propagtor, if you can provide that.

[Paul T]

David,

I have no idea for alpines themselves, but I know that having too strong a hormone can do more damage than having no hormone at all.  One that is commonly advocated now for helping rooting is to dip the ends in honey.  Apparently the anti-bacterial qualities of the honey help to promote healthy root formation on the cuttings.  Given there would be no problem with this "strength-wise", maybe it might be an ideal way to treat your alpine cuttings?

Good luck.

[newstart]

Is this a seriously tried and tested rooting idea with the honey? I wonder if rooting early soft growth whether the honey would rot the already young soft stem. Is this a better method for later in the season or is it indeed a good idea for early soft cuttings? Should be interesting one if any one knows this-and thanks!

Has anyone else branched into the areas of hormones? It would be great to know about this a L D Hills does say it has benefits for out of season rooting. If anyone has been fortunate enough to get good results with my above question, with weaker alpine hormone, it could be a useful Q hopefully not to be passed by. I shall wait with anticipation-and thanks again! thanks Maggie and Paul T so far. Let me no about the honey by the way-cheers.

[Susan Band]

Hi David,
When I tried hormone I never found it beneficial, also rooting hormone doesn't have a very long shelf life so if you are going to try it you are best to buy a new bottle. The alpines you mention with the exception of the Lithospermum shouldn't be a problem any way. Remember to keep the sun off them when you are trying.
Susan

[Michael J Campbell]

 I have never used hormone dips to root alpines, it is not necessary and a complete waste of time. They will not make a cutting root if it does not want to root ,they just speed up those that will root anyway, and as I said  not necessary for alpines.

[Lesley Cox]

We talked somewhere recently about Indolybutyric (?) Acid and its use as a root promoter. Can't find the thread. For the general run of soft growth alpines, damp gritty sand with potting mix underneath is enough but I use the dip for harder things like rhodos, or plants (like Origanum rotundifolium) that take a long time to root, for me anyway.

[Maggi Young]

see here:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4488.msg120759;topicseen#msg120759

[Rodger Whitlock]

Two secondhand comments:

One, that the late Doris Page, the long-time propagator at Ed Lohbrunner's long-gone Lakeside Gardens, did not use rooting hormone. Yet she was able to root many difficult subjects, inter alia Pinus mugho. She once told me that some "difficult" plants simply have a very narrow "window of rootability", in some cases as short as a week or two, perhaps even just two or three days, and cuttings taken outside that window simply will not root.

Doris also described ideal cutting material as new growth "that will bend but not break."

Two, another friend (this one alive) tells me that she has better success with cuttings that she has left out on the potting bench for a day before inserting into the rooting medium. She believes that this gives the wound a chance to callus over a little, making it less subject to fungal attack.

Along the lines of the second of these remarks, I once read *somewhere* that Russian horticulturists (yes, there were gardeners in the old Soviet Union) found that lilac cuttings rooted better if allowed to wilt before inserting into the rooting medium

In general, spring is not the optimum time to take cuttings; mid-summer far better. However, Christopher Lloyd in one of his books remarked that the right time to take cuttings is when you have the chance. For example, if visiting a friend and offered cuttings of something you covet, accept the gift regardless of the time of year. IIRC, he included on the list of reasons to take cuttings off season "you've remembered to do it."

[Paul T]

Spring is fine for some cuttings..... if you take tip cuttings of Fuchsia in spring for example (when you are tipping to promote growth, make the cuttings a little longer and they're perfect) you can have the plants struck and into bloom within 6 weeks with ideal conditions.  So much comes down to the right time for the particular plant, as you said Rodger.

[newstart]

I have had very good results from mid November cuttings(of all kinds) in good light in a small lean to. They were put in clear sandwich boxes in half peat half sand. The double protection must bring real warmth with the absence of soil warming techniques, also I think the peat gives a little more warmth to the roots than sand at this time of year(not sure about that though).

Can I ask you Lesley about the potting mix you mention as a thin layer below the sand for softwood cuttings in spring. Is the potting mix just peat or some John Innes 1 maybe? Also would the potting mix be half an inch and the sand half an inch on top. I also read about a john innes 1 being mixed 1 part to 4 parts sand. Is this the same idea as what you are saying. Does this bring a little more warmth to the roots than straight sand in March ? 

One final question- I have rooted those from november. They are in a polycarbonate lean to. Can I remove the sandwich box lid bit by bit until removed totally as some are starting to grow to tall for the sandwich box. As there in pots I could take out the taller ones and leave the rest in sandwich box. I think this may be the answer with polythene bag for protection instead maybe. I figure then I'd need to remove the lid slightly for the cuttings and close at night and occasionally remove poly bag to from taller cuttings. I see cuttings as vulnerable even though an alpine- any views -hope I am not taking to much time up - thanks!

[newstart]

I think I figured it the peat or potting mix below the sand stops the sand being over damp for the softwood cuttings by sucking away to much moisture.

Am I right?  -In response to Lesley's answer above.

[Lesley Cox]

The potting mix under the sand is because I rarely get things done when they SHOULD be done, so that rooted cuttings that are left too long before being potted up have something a bit more nutritious to grow into instead of JUST the sand.

I use either pots or trays for cuttings, the latter about 8 cms deep and I use these for soft wood or tip cuttings of most alpine plants. Pots are deeper, to maybe 15 cms deep and I use these for plants such as rhododendrons or things which would dry out too quickly in the shallow trays. (Like potting on, the watering rarely is done as often as it should be.) In both cases, I use my regular potting mix to about half depth then gritty sand for the top half. The potting mix is based on fine crushed pine park, some more of the same grit and a local product called "superdirt" which is one third crushed pine bark fines, one third well composed by-product from a rolled oats (porridge) factory and one third well composted sheep manure and dags (which are a mixture of manure and wool). Sounds utterly disgusting but it really is a very good growing medium for eveything from Aretian Androsaces to cabbages. I add more or less grit depending on what I'm potting and occasionally lime or dolomite and some (always by the handful, never measured) slow release fertilizer in a high potash plus trace elements formulation. I don't use peat at all, ever for potting though I get some peat added to the brought-in soil for my newest bit of garden, in order to help with moisture retention. The "superdirt" is on the acid side.

[David Lyttle]

Not withstanding my own rather haphazard approach, most plants can be propagated from cuttings. Whether or not you can get something to root is a bit of a numbers game. The idea is you treat the cutting so it forms a callus ie wound it then persuade the callus to differentiate to form roots. Rooting hormones fulfill this function (though if the cutting is in a favourable physiological state ie late summer growth) the application of rooting hormone is not as critical.

Perhaps the most important thing is to keep the cutting alive while all these processes happen so it crucial not to let the cutting dry out and to prevent it rotting. Hence the use of a specialised rooting media that retains moisture and allows aeration and drainage. (I use sharp sand but you could experiment). It is important for alpines that you keep the aerial parts in a humid environment but allow good air circulation. (Easier said than done as I don't think misting systems are the answer) Bottom heat certainly helps. Some cuttings can take up to a year to root.

[David Shaw]

I also use Lesley's trick with the potting compost. In my case I put some seed compost in the bottom of the pot because I am never really sure of when they have rooted and can be potted on. The compost gives a little extra margine of safety!