cyp hybrids in pots

[monocotman]

Hi there,
as a very occasional contributor to a site that I've learnt so much from, I'd like to repay part of that knowledge by offering my observations on growing cyps in pots over the past few years and hopefully sparking a debate about their culture.
I grow mainly hybrids in large 8 inch plastic pots in a compost of about 90% super coarse perlite and 10% orchid bark. Plants are overwintered in a cold frame or out house but spend the summer in the shade of a large conifer and receive only early morning sun.
The pots are watered every other day and fed full strength fertilizer, especially right at the start of the season when there is greatest need. Later in the season the fertilizing is more haphazard  and I tend to use the high potash tomato type.
To start with, I struggled with the culture until I realised that they needed more water and feed compared with organic composts.
Plants grew slowly bigger and very occasionally went from one to two growths.
But in the past couple of years, the plants have really taken off in terms of growth and flowering.
I'm not sure whether this is down to
a) more experience
b) more feeding - I was feeding at quarter strength
c) two poor summer with little heat stress
or a combination of these.
This last spring there were many stems with two flowers.
One of the things that has also helped is the compost - the hybrids develop very extensive root systems in the perlite compared to organics - see the first photo.
This is my star plant 'Sunny' and has developed into a 22 stem monster in only four years from the first flower.
It wasn't until I started to repot some of the more vigorous plants that I realised just how extensive some of the root systems are. Photos one ,three and four show this well.
Following instructions on Michael Wienert's excellent web site about the dangers of allowing cyps to get too big, I've tried to split 'Sunny'.
It just seems to be a case of washing off all the compost from the roots then pulling and tugging until the rhizome is in the desired number of bits.
This is easier said than done. Just locating the rhizome is not easy and Sunny's is very tightly knit. I had to resort to a knife in the end. See photo two - it took an hour and a half to get to this point.
Has anyone more experience of this technique?
Anyway I suppose that my viewpoint is that these hybrids aren't difficult- I've managed to fail almost completely with fritillaries in pots at the same time.
They may take a couple of years to build up a decent root system but then they can really move.
'Inge' has gone from three to nine stems this year and Pixi has doubled.
The few species that I grow do nicely but only increase gently,
Regards,
David

[Maggi Young]

My  goodness, David, this  shows quite clearly that you are having considerable success!
In addition to your list of variables which might have contributed to the rather super amount of growth you are experiencing with 'Sunny'  .... do you think there might also be the factor that, at or after a certain stage, the plant is simply mature enough to really get growing?

Whereabouts are you gardening? That might help some of us to better understand your local climate. Oh, I recall now from one of your earlier posts.... near Cambridge, in England?

I also remember this post with photos of 'Sunny' ......    http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3301.msg89700#msg89700

[monocotman]

Hi Maggie,

I agree with you that the plants need to get to a certain size before they start to 'take off'.
This seems to be somewhere between 2 and 4 growths plus a pot full of roots.
How long they can take to get to this size seems to vary between crosses.
'Aki' seems to be quite slow. Sabine is increasing gently.
'Hank Small' has spent three years as a single growth, getting taller with more flowers each year. This year there were three on a stem.
Finally, it has produced three buds for next year, so I'm now hoping that it is take off mode.

But a nice x Ventricosum flowered for the first time this year with four flowers and has now jumped to eight buds this autumn.
'Philipp' stayed as a single growth for three years but in the last three seasons has gone from two to ten buds and a potful of roots similar to Sunny.

I don't live in the best area for growing these plants - East Anglia receives a more continental climate than the rest of the UK. You should be able to grow these plants more easily in the West and North.
In addition, the plants aren't pampered. They are much tougher than they appear,

Regards,

David

[Stephen Vella]

Interesting David but what are you fertilizing with and whats the NPK?

And how often do you repot your Cyp hybrids

Also do you grow species?

cheers

[monocotman]

Hi Stephen,

I fertilize mainly with a standard cheap white powder - 'miracle gro' or 'phostrogen'.
I think the timing is more important than what you use.
The fertilizer went on a bit late this spring and a formosanum had started to grow.
The growths were a bit pale. The rest of the plants, which all develop slightly later, were fine with a decent green colour.
Most of the nitrogen requirements of the plant for the year must be in the initial rapid shoot growth, so I like to have the pot well charged with fertilizer before this starts to happen.
Once the flowers have withered and the leaves are fully expanded, the N requirement must fall away. I fertilize haphazardly from this point on, when I remember.
Sometimes with normal and sometimes with tomato food.
All the subsequent growth activity for the year is underground - roots and new buds.
The hybrids are repotted when I find the compost deteriorating and this is usually when a worm or two find their way in and start to produce casts.
This tends to take at least two years but may be as long as four or five.
if I was more vigilant then they could probably go for longer.

I grow some of the usual species - the yellow flowered N. american (pubescens/kentuckiense etc)and the reddish chinese/himalayans( tibeticum/macranthos etc). None of the difficult chinese ones.

They all grow in the same compost but their rate of increase is slower. They are fertilized at a quarter rate compared to the species, following recommendations from Michael Wienert.
A nice clone of tibeticum now has four growths from a single one two years ago, despite carrying a pod this year.
Others are slower  - a japonicum is still a single growth after three years, although it did manage to flower this year,

Regards,

David

[Maggi Young]

But a nice x Ventricosum flowered for the first time this year with four flowers and has now jumped to eight buds this autumn.

Yes, David, it is odd, if very pleasant, that some types do manage this exponential growth spurt..... 

I think that Anthony Darby, who has considerable success with Cyps and who lives in Dunblane, in central Scotland, finds the same thing with some of his plants.
 I believe that his rainfall will be higher than yours ....

[Stephen Vella]

Interesting David,

So i guess there would be urea in a cheap fertiliser that you use and here iam using an orchid fert and a hydroponic one that lacks in urea.(Hydroponic ony because they are just about grown that way with inorganic media) Ive allways been told to stay away from using ferts that contain that element.

Im looking for something suitable as the ones that i have lack calcium also and I think is a major one for cyp developement.

Cyps are in full swing here in the southern hemiphere. Leaves are just about to expand. They look ok just really slow to get them to increase. C reginae does the best for me.

Do you sink your pots into the ground David?

Ive started to plant the larger ones in  terracotta pots(a bowl shape) and sink half the pots seems to keep the roots cooler and they like the shape as they can spread. I have a formosum with 12 flowers. I have seedlings of species and hybrids in their 4th and 5th year but they are sooooo slow. Flowers on some maybe next year.

cheers

[monocotman]

Stephen,

I don't know whether these is urea in miracle gro or phostrogen - may be someone else can help?
The water here in near Cambridge is pretty hard so the plants don't lack for a source of calcium. They tend to be watered with this most of the time but I try to flush through with rain water when I remember.
I don't sink the pots - that would be a council of perfection that I don't have time for.
I tried standing the pots in a small amount (half an inch) of water last year to buffer the pots against any swings in water availability but I don't think it helped much. I didn't bother this year. The plants are all 'over potted' into at least 8 inch pots even when quite small so I don't think this is a factor.When perlite is used as compost, the pot size is irrelevant  -it will never 'sour'.
I use normal shaped pots and the roots go all the way to the bottom and appear fine so I'm not convinced that any particular shape is necessary.
What are your summer temperatures like?
The general view seems to be that cyps don't like anything over the mid twenties centigrade.
This year we had one week of high twenties/low thirties and I sprayed the plants twice a day and they seemed to be fine. One or two developed some small black spots on the leaves but that was about all.
I think the critical thing for increase is how many days you can keep the plants green and 'growing' and not stressed after flowering has finished.
I'm also sure that feeding at full strength has much improved the performance of the hybrids.
There may yet be more to come. If you look at the photos on Werner Frosch's web site which show symptoms of over feeding ( burnt leaf tips) none of my plants have shown these. So I may not yet be at the limit.
Another thing is definitley clonal. Some plants just grow better than others.The photos show a nice tibeticum that is a division from another well known grower.The photo was taken earlier this year and there are now four new buds despite one of the flowers carrying a pod.
I have another tibeticum that hardly moves at all.
Seed grown plants also seem much easier. There is a plentiful supply of fasciolatums around now and these all seem to be very straight forward in this compost.
Maggie - I think our annual rainfall is about 26 inches( nearly semi arid!!) - apparently you have to go all the way to the Ural mountains before you find another place with rainfall this low,

Regards,

David

[monocotman]

In response to a request - the super coarse perlite I use is 3-6mm size and is produced by William Sinclair Ltd.
They appear to sell it for insulation and not for garden use.
Maybe that is why is it quite cheap.
A 100 litre bag from my local horticultural supplies costs about £12.
The local shop is Berrycroft Stores Ltd based in the village of Willingham north of Cambridge.
They basucally supply the horticultural growers in the fens.
The place is an Aladdin's cave of all things horticultural and hasn't been updated since the 1950's.
It reminds me of walking into the shop in 'Open all hours'. A great place to visit.
They don't take plastic and don't have a web site or e mail,
Regards
David

[Paul T]

David,

Those Cyps are stunning.  Beautiful!

[Stephen Vella]

hello David,

Your Cyps grow to perfection.Very nice!


I keep a thermometer close by where the Cyps grow. Summer max at 32c in the shade for a few days and average at 24c and a minimum at 12c during the night.  As I live on a mountain they seem to like to climate here, 59inches of rain and some very cool and misty nights keep them happy. Winters can be very cold and dry.

The high temps do stress out the plants and I do irrigate, if i remember. I sink the pots as I fear they do dry out to quickly and heat up in summer. Over head irrigation does keep them cool. Ive watched a whole pot full of Cyp seedlings yellow a few days after a heat wave and they did not come again the year after so keeping them cool and moist is a must in summer.

Ive notice you cover your compost mix with a clay pebble?....Ive been covering mine in grit, does seem to make a differance in keeping them moist as they do tend to have roots on the surface and this is the reason why a repot my adults in terracota bowls and hopefully want to form large clumps.

In a garden in the US C reginae roots are known to spread out to a meter and more looking for moisture and nutrition

Yes the C fasciolatums are nice and hardy from what I hear, this has been on my wish list but If only I lived in the EU I would grow them all All adult Cyps entering Aus have to be fumigated and 50% are lost in the process, most of mine are seedling grown so no fumigation is needed but even then this is risky as some arrive dead on arrival not coping with tempretures in transport, so what I have are very treasured orchids and are now starting to make great gains.

cheers

[angie]

Hi David

Thanks for the interesting reading. I have a few of Cyp/hybrids but don't seem to be able to bulk them up, so all your information will be a benefit to me. I think I have been trying to keep them to warm. I keep mine in terracotta pots and stand them outside in a shaded spot in the summer. After the leaves die down I put them under my staging in the greenhouse, I was wandering what you do with yours in the winter .
Thanks Angie

[monocotman]

Stephen,

I use hydroleuca as a mulch - it keeps down the weeds and is prettier to look at than perlite. The roots don't tend to grow into it.
It is also very easy to remove when you want to check out the plants.
I sympathise with your customs arrangements - you must have to be really dedicated to try to import cyps.
Do you grow all your plants in clay pots?
I'd be very wary of trying to grow them in small clay pots - too much fluctuation in the moisture levels.
Your summer temps sound Ok - maybe a bit warmer than here. You could probably water every day in summer if you grew in perlite.

Angie - I made the same mistake with my cyps when I first started growing them. I pampered them and they didn't like it. They hate greenhouse culture -most of the year it is too warm and dry. When growing the only time they go there is for photos - it is often too windy to take decent ones outside.
However they do tend to spend the winter there as it is convenient. I cover the pots in newspaper to keep any winter sun off them and damp it down from time to time.

David

[Jeff Hutchings]

It is always interesting to read other peoples experiences. After eight years of growing them in quantity I have reached the conclusion there is no simple answer to what to use, etc. but there are certainly some vital do not's.

In particular - don't let the plants get hot in the summer; keep them well watered through the growing season; don't use compost with too high an organic content which causes the loss of aeration in the pot. Keep them out of a green house from May until October.

My stock are in a polytunnel but with net sides and have an overhead watering system which is automated so they get short showers regularly throughout the day. This cools the atmosphere during hot weather.

This summer has been excellent for growth because the weather has been cool and thus the plants less stressed. I have a quantity of large pots, hybrids and species (10 lt plastic) which I hope will behave next year and flower at the right time for the show exhibitions. One thing I learnt very early on was that when using terracotta pots they must be kept damp all through the summer to avoid drying out. This is almost impossible unless the pots are sunk in sand. Hence my using plastic.

I have had the good fortune of being able to pick Peter Corkhills brains for the past year and see exactly how he grows the magnificant speciemens he has. Someone mentioned Sunny. Peter has Two large fish boxes with superb specimens in. They bulk up very quickly. Peter had used coarse bark in the mix of some of the older plants I bought from him. When I re-potted the roots were in a matt of white mycelium and the large number of buds were huge.

[Maggi Young]

Good advice, Jeff... I see you remembered your log-in, then!? 

I would be a little wary, up here, of takining pots overwintered in a glass house out of doors in May, though.... our frosts can still be vicious at that time and for a plant which has had winter protection, I would prefer a longer period of hardening off before exposure to all our weather can throw at  it!