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Author Topic: taxonomy, DNA and Scilla  (Read 6719 times)

Gerry Webster

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Re: taxonomy, DNA and Scilla
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2009, 11:21:28 AM »
Dear Gerry,
I regret the flippant tone of my last post. My excuse is that I am not more pleased to be called names than people usually are. Your placing me and the beliefs you believe I hold, against yourself where you call yourself a realist seeking the truth seems to put me on the side of the lie and the unrealistic. I pointed that out in a roundabout way in order to give you an opportunity to reformulate yourself in a less offending way but you did not do that.
 
Vikipedia defines utalitarian as : “Utilitarianism is the idea that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its contribution to overall utility” I am at a loss to how you can determine my attitude to moral questions from my attitude to naming of plants. Instead of saying that I am offended, I am asking you for an explanation. Your answer was that I should read books about philosophy. This is not very helpful since I am asking about your perception of me which is unlikely to be found in a book.

You also say that I am a relativist. This is in itself not pejorative since some kinds of relativism are inevitable. It is difficult to say that something is big unless we mean that it is big relatively to something. On the other hand you say that you are a realist and seeking the truth. I must thus conclude that you mean that I am a relativist as regards truths. That is no doubt a pejorative verdict. However I am not complaining about insults, I am merely asking you to clarify. Again I cannot find that clarification in any book.

I mirrored your own way of answering by asking you to read. That was wrong by me. My excuse is that I was somewhat irritated by being treated like a schoolboy. I should have said clearly what I mean and that was: “You are using ad hominem argumentation. My stance, relative to relativism and utilitarianism, have nothing to do with whether my views on the use of botanical names are right or wrong.“
Yours
Göte
PS let us hope that I am not invoking Godwin’s law.   
Dear Göte,

Although I had vowed to discontinue this exchange, I suppose I am honour bound to respond  to your last post.

1. Relativism - my comment here was based on your previous remarks (see post 16) which seem to suggest that you regard scientific beliefs as matters of personal preference. This is relativism.

2. Utilitarianism - my apologies here, I was using the term in the everyday rather than the technical sense. The correct technical term is instrumentalism. This is a philosophy of science which claims that scientific beliefs are merely “tools”  - a term you have used frequently - and are not to be understood as making claims about reality. By contrast realist philosophies of science construe scientific beliefs as claims about reality (which may be true or false). As far as I am concerned, this is not a discussion about names (‘tools’) but about the nature of species (reality). From a realist perspective, to give two entities ( say, species) different names is not simply a matter of convenience but embodies the claim that they are really different. To investigate this claim involves attempting to determine  what  species really are. 

3. I have pointed out that the vews I was advancing are not original with me but were developed  by the American philosopher of biology David Hull  & based on previous arguments by the evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr. It is these views which you seem to regard as mistaken,  hence I thought it might be useful if you read some of Hull’s work. In fact, I regard Hull’s critique of the Linnaean system as truly brilliant & while I have my own criticisms of his later views,  these are not pertinent to the present discussion

4. I’m sorry you regard my arguments as ad hominem and insulting;  they were not so intended. Rather,  I was merely attempting  to characterise your arguments in terms of well-known philosophical positions.  I have no "perceptions" of you (apart from the fact that you seem to be very quick to take offence) & my comments were entirely directed at the arguments you were advancing. Of course I was not saying or even implying  that you were "on the side of the lie". Realism is a stance in the philosophy of science; it does not imply any moral evaluations. 

5. This really is my final post on the matter. As Martin remarked, we are extremely unlikely to agree  so I think that  little would be gained by further exchanges.

Gerry

« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 01:08:05 PM by Gerry Webster »
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

Martin Baxendale

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Re: taxonomy, DNA and Scilla
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2009, 01:03:45 AM »
I'm up late writing and I'm tired, so I probably shouldn't jump into this tar pit, but I've been thinking about it on and off all day and it does seem to be me, as I mentioned earlier, that there are two quite different discussions going on here. It seems like one of you is talking about the questions of scientific philosophy raised by attempts to accurately classify the natural world and the other is talking about the practical implications for botanists and gardeners of a classification system that is in flux.

The points of reference are therefore very different and the use of language and interpretation of language equally different, so it was inevitable that you'd end up where you are, disagreeing strongly and with offence taken where perhaps none may have been intended.

Not that I neccessarily want you to stop!  ;D   I'm learning all the time. For example, I now know what an ad hominem argument is and I've discovered that Godwin's Law is a particularly interesting concept, if not an entirely serious one. Thanks again for a fascinating discourse. I'm sorry it's got so heated, but it has been very interesting nonetheless.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:05:29 AM by Martin Baxendale »
Martin Baxendale, Gloucestershire, UK.

Gerry Webster

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Re: taxonomy, DNA and Scilla
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 09:53:37 AM »
Martin - You are probably right, & this provides a good  reason to stop what has become an unproductive exchange. This is not the appropriate place to conduct such a discussion & it was a mistake for me to get involved in the first place. I only did so because Jim McKenney,  who started the thread, seemed interested in the scientific issues.
Gerry passed away  at home  on 25th February 2021 - his posts are  left  in the  forum in memory of him.
His was a long life - lived well.

gote

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Re: taxonomy, DNA and Scilla
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2009, 01:46:57 PM »
Dear Gerry,

Thank you for clarifying , I am grateful for your explanation which clarifies your meaning and I think that it is a pity that you stop a discussion that could lead somewhere. It is, as Martin writes, useful to be forced to think things over. We usually have a many beliefs and some knowledge that we have not made clear - even to ourselves - and you have forced some of these (mine) to the surface.

I have a slight handicap that I share with many. I write English fairly gramatically correct and fairly well spelt (Thank you Mr Gates) This does not mean that we always write exactly what we think we do. The English reader, however, is unaware of this. It is of course the other way round too. If you say that you did not intend AH argument I gratefully accept that and all is well on my side.
 
It would be very far from me to believe that scientific truth is depending upon personal beliefs. (Strangely enough quantum physics seem to be based on the belief that properties that we have not yet measured do not exist a belief that seems to make truths depend upon the individual. I agree with Einstein - not with Bohr) I have used the word tool in the everyday meaning. A name is a handle to something and a handle is a tool. One could argue that a hypothesis sometimes could be used as a tool but this is not my meaning here. I see naming systems as tools and the tool in itself is unable to be true or false. A tool is also not a scientific belief. The application of the name can of course be wrong or right.

I do not know what beliefs Carl von Linné held in 1753. At least officially he held the belief that species were classes created by the Lord and they were permanent and constant. The idea that all members of a genus would have a common ancestor would be heresy in the theological meaning of the word. What he wanted to create was order in chaos and I think he did that. The idea that species are permanent, always separate entities is not tenable and I give you right in that. Already Darwin and to some extent Mendel defeated that idea. The tool - the naming system - is, however, in my view tenable. In a majority of cases it works well for all who use it. The tool depends upon the users. The users have to assign borders between entities that should be given one name and those that should be given another. These borders are man-made just as the names themselves are man-made. If the borders reflect an underlying difference so much the better. However there are underlying differences all the way down to the individual specimen and the choice will be man-made. Einstein once said. "God does not play dice" I would add, 'He does not give names either' (Adam did that  ;) )

I would like to paraphrase Professor Parkinson and say that a perfect system is a dead system. Sometimes we get a mess. This mess is unavoidable. We all make mistakes. Sometimes because of stupidity, sometimes because of irrational bias, In the case of naming, the main reason is lack of information. This lack of information is typical for the naming of a new plant. If it does not even have a name we do not know much else either. No naming system can avoid this problem. Thus when Gawler named a, for him, new Lily L. tigrinum he was unaware that Thunberg had named it L. lancifolium in the previous century. When Franchet named one lily L. lankongense and another L. duchatreii he was unaware that intermediate forms exist. Gawler's mistake is rectified by the very obvious rule that the oldest name is the right one. Franchet's mistake is trickier. The present idea seems to be that L. lankongense is but a geographical variation of L. duchatreii. My point is that I can still use the name L. lankongense Franch if the plant in question fits Franchets original description.

Fortunately for the taxonomist, the majority of plants do not overlap. However some do and quite often I find myself on the side of the lumpers. I do not believe that all Trilliums are different entities to give one example. On the other hand I do not believe that it is correct to call Kinugasa japonica Paris japonica. It is much too different.

If we assume that naming systems must closely reflect the "true" relationships we run into trouble. It is not so that a proto-Lilium suddenly splits into a number of different species. The changes go one step at a time. L hansonii seems closer to L martagon than to L lancifolium but is L. medeloides closer to L. hansonii than to L. martagon? We can find out but we end up with the situation that we have to put a border somewhere. This border can never be a "natural" border. When the system works well there are no overlaps because the intermediate plants are extinct.

Fortunately I am not in the botanical "business" thus I can do as I please. Since I, by stooping down and looking the flower in the face, immediately can see the difference between a Chionodoxa and a Scilla I will go on calling it Chionodoxa thereby conforming with the virtual flora published by the Swedish Museum of Natural Nistory and practically all litterature, catalogues and labels in botanical gardens. If  I call it Scilla, I only cause confusion.

With the best regards

Göte.

PS
Names are like other words. They are defined in dictioneries by people using other words as tools of definition. Sometimes there are synonyms, sometimes there are homonyms. In spite of the difficulties we do not change to Esperanto or Assembler.


 
       
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Göte Svanholm
Mid-Sweden

 


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