DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING

[Eric Locke]

Hi David

Non of the hybrids that you registered rung a bell, so have had to check this out.
Time does fly and I find it was 2008 when this cross was registered by H Pinkapank. I made this cross in 2007.
Querdolf = Aurita x Pln x Barbarae

Eric

[Eric Locke]

Another observation that should prove helpfull to anyone starting to raise seedlings is regarding the selection of Pleione to be used as the seed parent . I have not heard this mentioned before or written down but I have found that the seedpod parent can be badly effected by the experience    I would recomend that anyone must be prepared for a weakened replacement bulb or at worst a total loss .Therefore if you wish to use a special plant you do not want to risk ,it is best to be used as the pollen donor.
Some plants are not badly affected, but this does vary and I have had a total loss on one occasion when using Forrestii as the seedparent . This seedpod however did mature well and went on to germinate and hopefully the results will justify the loss.

Eric

[Slug Killer]

Hi Eric

Querudolf was another cross from germany that they wanted to register but alas it had been done as you pointed out.

Below is what was registered for them last year,

Pleione Sirena  (forrestii x humilis)
Pleione Spring (grandiflora x barbarae)
Pleione renate  (barbarae x aurita)
Pleione Alde Saran  (bulbocodioides x coronaria)
Pleione Lilac Wonder (chunii x yunnanensis)
Pleione Guenter   (bulbocodioides  x Eiger)
Pleione Jens Blankenburg   (vesuvius x coronaria)

Cultivars
Pln Zeus Weinstein gx,  Bahiya GP
Pln Glacier Peak gx, Fantasia Gp
Pln Glacier Peak gx,  Iceage GP
Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp


David

[Eric Locke]

David

Thanks for this list.  I do like the look of Sirena. Do you have this.

Eric

[Slug Killer]

I was given some bulbs or FS-1 just before Christmas but not taken them out of the box yet to see what I have. Alde Saran I had last year and Aurita x Chunii (allready registered Kima).

[Eric Locke]

These both look nice David.
I did purchase a couple of small Alde Saran on ebay from you friend before xmas. It arrived with a chocolate Father Xmas which was also nice.

Eric

[Eric Locke]

A comment regarding Aurita as a parent (as in Kima)
Aurita is a very dominant parent and all crosses using it have the Aurita "look"

Eric

[Slug Killer]

Yes I agree, the Aurita in Pln.Kima is unmistakable.

For anyone interested here are two photo's with a five pence piece to show scale and difference a month makes. The Bulbocodioides was sown in October and the Yunnanensis was sown a month later.

I am using vented 'Combiness' pots but think there is a little too much ventilation as with so many plants I have had to reopen and add water to stop them drying out. When I reflask there will be far fewer plants per flask and I may switch to a patch vent instead. Trial and error.

[Pieter]

Hi

Dave,
They realy look nice. The colour and  lip markings on Alde Saran are realy great.

Eric,
You are right about Pleione aurita. It likes to be the boss in almost any cross.

I made a small list with features that are passed on by some Pleione on their offspring.

aurita      - flower colour       - flower shape?        x barabarae      - flower shape        bulbocodioides      - dark coloration       - possibly a colour intensifier?        chunii      - flower shape       - asymmetric markings on lip        formosana      - different colour of lip than petals en sepals        forresti      - dark red lip markings        grandiflora      - flower shape        hookeriana      - typical round lip markings        humilis      - dark red lip markings even between the papillae        limprichti      - markings on the complete lip        pleionoides      - intens pink colour, lip markings        yunnanensis      - typical angular lip markings

This is just what I think and it is bassed on observing the flowers. If there are any comments or corrections, please feel free to do so.

greetings

[karel_t]

Hi everybody.
Pieter, your list is very interesting. I think everybody should consider which species will use for parents and what they expect from their offspring. I think about lip color, shape etc. By my opinion the Alde Saran looks too much like pure P. bulbocodioides. So I think it isn't too beneficial have so many same looking hybrids.
Karel.

[Pieter]

I pressed a wrong button and the reply was posted before it was complete. Here is the rest and hopefully a better form of the little list I made.
Hi

Thanks Karel.

I am still working on a full list where I add some figures that say a bit more about the traits.
Lets take P. aurita as an example.

species   trait                                           n  crosses   visible   %
aurita   Flower colour                                          12              8   66
   Flower shape                                          12              9   75
   Yellow moon shaped marking on the lip          12     7   58


n crosses = the numer of crosses in witch aurita is used that I have seen (note: this is not the number of crosses in witch aurita is used in total)
visible = this is the number of crosses in witch that trait is expresed
% = this the  same

species   trait   n  crosses   visible   % aurita   Flower colour   12   8   66    Flower shape   12   9   75    Yellow moon shaped marking on the lip   12   7   58

n crosses = the numer of crosses in witch aurita is used that I have seen (note: this is not the number of crosses in witch aurita is used in total)
visible = this is the number of crosses in witch that trait is expresed
% = this the  same as the previous but in a %

I guess that when a trait is expressed in 75% of the cases you can surely say it is a dominating trait.

Greetings

[KBruyninckx]

I guess that when a trait is expressed in 75% of the cases you can surely say it is a dominating trait.

Pieter,

Your attempt is commendable, however... you need to watch out!

Although there is truth in your figures, they may not always be correct.

Would Pln. aurita when crossed to another species always be dominant in shape, colour, ... or could/would this not depend on the other species involved as well.
I can safely say I have not hybridized any Pleiones to date, but could it not be so that the "cases" you are looking at are single clones?
What did the other seedlings of that same batch of seedlings look like? Were they uniform in shape, colour, ... or variable? What if other clones were to be used in order to get the same combination?
If the majority of the seedling batch was constant then you're figures are correct, however it they were not constant than you have just based yourself on a single individual to build up your theory.

Looking at some primary hybrids in Paphiopedilums I know that you CAN get excellent results when lucky, but sometimes it is, well, "not bad"  at best


Anyway, don't let this discourage you!
I'd love for those who hybridize to publish more pictures of the variation or lack of it within a batch of seedlings in order to further our knowledge!

[Slug Killer]

Hi everybody.
Pieter, your list is very interesting. I think everybody had to consider which species will use for parents and what they expect from their offspring. I think about lip color, shape etc. By my opinion the Alde Saran looks too much like pure P. bulbocodioides. So I think it isn't too beneficial have so many same looking hybrids.
Karel.

I agree, bulbocodioides is too dominant in my opinion and I would not use in any crosses myself.

David

[Pieter]

Hi Kenneth

I know that what I am doing here is not  an exact science, even if genetics is a serious science.

I am glad to get this response. It is the only way that thoughts like this can go from ideas on to be useful information.

The numbers mentioned in the example are based on mostly primary crosses and with a large range of examples (where possible, I don’t have as much information on all crosses). 
It is however important to mention that the crosses in which a trait was not expressed, that these involved P. bulbocodioides and  P. yunnanensis. These two species apparently have even more dominant traits, especially bulbocodioides. Like you said David.   

The use of different clones will very well be a huge source for variation.  In the case of P. ‘Ueli Wackernagel’, the late Jan Berg made seven different forms of this hybrid just by using different clones of the parents. But still they all have inherited the same characteristics from their parents.

This list is far from finished and I wouldn’t say it is correct. So if people would like to help out by adding information, please do, but don’t forget to enjoy a simple thing as the newly opened flower of your favourite Pleione. 

Greetings

[Eric Locke]

Pieter

I can see you have put much thought into this after my mentioning Aurita. Thanks.
Another thought is regarding the bulb characteristics produced from the hybrid parents.
I always find that the shape and colour of the bulbs are often a good indication of the possible parents, although this is not always the case.
This I find is often very usefull for recognising stray bulbs.

David - nice flasks of seedlings . This is something I do miss out on as mine are well developed by the time I see them.

Eric