DIY PLEIONE HYBRIDISING

[Pieter]

Karel T, that is wonderfull.

Do you do the complete seedraising at home?

I am thinking about making some crosses myself but I don't have the courage to sow and replate the seeds and protocorms. Is this a tricky job to do?
I will probebly start with a laboratry that does seedraising but I am not sure how the full procces goes.
You deliver them the seed or the seedpod and they sow two motherflask. After that you can chose howmuch flasks with 15, 20 or 25 protocorms you want from the replate. This is where it is not clear for me.
What can you expect from one seedpod? If the cross you made is verry variable it would be best the chose for a replate with more protocorms than if there is verry little variation. But if a large number of the seedlings exctualy grow in to flowering size bulbs, you need a lot of space.
So what is a good number of protocorms to be kept over from a new cross?

Greetings 

[Eric Locke]

Taking things on further from Karel"s protocorms. Hopefully this will give further encouragement for others to have a go.
These are two of my first crosses made in the spring of 2007 and have had one years growth out of flask.
Cross one has produces many plants ranging from very small ,to bulbs that should reach flowering size after this seasons growth.
Cross two only produced the five seedlings shown and I was lucky that all survived the first year. These should take a further two seasons minimum to flower.
Other crosses produced results in between examples shown.
Loses can be quite high for this first season out of flask.

Eric

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Very interesting Eric ! 
Fascinating to see what a huge difference there is between bulbs that have germinated all at the same time.
I wonder if in future, the "fast" growers will prove to be the fastest multipliers as well ??

[Eric Locke]

Very interesting Eric ! 
Fascinating to see what a huge difference there is between bulbs that have germinated all at the same time.
I wonder if in future, the "fast" growers will prove to be the fastest multipliers as well ??

This is quite possible Luc but they might not turn out to be the best clones as I understand, often the best come later.

Eric

[Paul Cumbleton]

Hi Pieter,
I would always choose the higher number of protocorms (25) in a flask unless your space is very limited. Some of them will nearly always die anyway in their first year out of flask so you end up with less. If you really are limited with space, then I would choose fewer protocorms if you have done a primary hybrid (which is a pure species x another pure species) and more if you have crossed two hybrids. This is because you tend to get less variation from a primary cross, but more variation from a more complex cross.

Eric is right - the most vigorous growers are not always the most attractive ones, but this is quite variable. Sometimes you wait ages to get a poor result, other times it is quite the opposite. And the time from first pollinating to seeing your first flower can be quite variable. I thought it would be useful for those thinking of trying hybridising for themselves to see what the timing can be like. I have analysed the results of the 48 hybrids that have so far flowered from my own crosses. The number of years from pollinating the parent to seeing the first flower came out as follows:

4 of them took 4 years
15 of them took 5 years
15 of them took 6 years
8 of them took 7 years
5 of them took 8 years
1 of them took 9 years

I keep them 2 years in flask, so you can take 2 years off these figures if you want the time from de-flasking to first flower. You will see that the majority take 5 to 6 years from pollination to flower (= 3 to 4 years from de-flasking to flower).

The one that took 9 years was not worth the wait!!

Paul

[karel_t]

Hi Pieter,
Yes, I've done all the process of sowing and replanting at home, in a simple sterile box in my bathroom. It is really quite easy, if you use commercial medium (I use ORCHIMAX - co. Duchefa, Ltd.).
I can agree with all what Paul and Eric have written but sometime is very difficult to separate a single protocorms from primary sowing flask. Sometime is the seedling really overcrowded. So I only rip the seedling to the smaller pieces and replant them to the fresh medium. Then I will separate them during second replanting.
Karel.

[Pieter]

Thank you all for the info.

Eric

That is spectacular to see. Such a difference between to crosses. Is this also done at home or do you  make use of seed sowing services?
That first cross produced a massive number of seedlings. What do you do with these once they are flowering size and are not the result you had hoped for? Do you just trow them away? If you follow the advice from Brian Ritterhausen in his book, you should trow away the biggest and strongest seedlings before replating. He says that these are often not the best and can have deformed flowers. Any experience with this?


Paul

Your information is very interesting. This is not the kind of knowledge you find in books or on the internet. Can we expect a book by the hand of Paul Cumbleton in the future?
If so many seedlings don’t make it the first year out of flask it would be better to get an as large as possible number of seedlings? Considering the available space and finances.
You keep them two years in flask. Is that after the replate? Do the young plants need a winter rest when they are growing in vitro or can you let them continue to grow?


Karel T

Can you find all the supply’s needed on the internet or are some simply found in nurseries or in a pharmacy?
The sowing medium you suggest, do you buy this already in jars or is this also something that you do yourself?


When I was still in collage (about 13y ago) we did some in vitro sowing and replating. But this was mainly with Oncidiums witch  produce large plants and in a fully equipped laboratory. I learned how once but don’t have materials. Maybe I should try it some day to do some home sowing.

Greetings     

[Paul Cumbleton]

Hi Pieter,
Yes, if space etc allow I would get as many seedlings as practically possible. However, I did not want to give the impression that a LOT of seedlings die in their first year - just that SOME do die, but the majority make through OK.
When flasking I used to replate twice - the first a few weeks after germination. They stay in this flask until the end of the first year in flask and then I did give them a winter rest - in the fridge where there was space. I then took them out and replated a second time on to a stronger medium and they stay in here for the second year. These flasks once more go into the fridge for winter, then after that I remove them from flask to grow on as normal. Doing this you end up with bigger baby bulbs which stand a better chance of surviving when you take them out of flask.

As for a book....this has actually been on my mind to do for a while now. If enough of you prod me then I guess I will have to consider it more seriously!

Cheers

Paul

[Slug Killer]

Below are some images of Pleione that were flasked last October/November. Some have been reflasked but will need thinning out soon. All these are Species not Hybrids and I'm missing albiflora and coronaria if anyone has any seed? I will of course return the favour if the seed is viable.

These are in no particular order.

[Eric Locke]

Thank you all for the info.

Eric

That is spectacular to see. Such a difference between to crosses. Is this also done at home or do you  make use of seed sowing services?
That first cross produced a massive number of seedlings. What do you do with these once they are flowering size and are not the result you had hoped for? Do you just trow them away? If you follow the advice from Brian Ritterhausen in his book, you should trow away the biggest and strongest seedlings before replating. He says that these are often not the best and can have deformed flowers. Any experience with this?


Hi Pieter

Yes I use a seed sowing service as I have not the time or space to do this myself. It is a much more expensive way of doing this, but I consider it a price worth paying.
I have so far over twenty crosses in various stages and intend to add to this each year.
I send off my seedpods around mid November and collect the flasks back fifteen months later, around early Feb. These are still in growth then so I let these go dormant and replant them in compost around early April.
I will see how the crosses turn out in time but I am sure others will be interested in them even if they turn out to be nothing special . I don"t think throwing them away will be an option and certainly not for my first hybrids.

Photo shown is a flask collected this time last year and the plants just starting to go dormant.


Eric

[Slug Killer]

Hi Eric

Are the photos of bulbs above a good indication of what came out of the flask and then one year in soil?

A German friend registered some new hybrids last year ( I did the paperwork for him) but failed on a couple because they got registered days before by someone else.

One thing that must be very disappointing is having a new cross registered days before you are going to register the same thing when it takes as long as Paul mentioned above to get from seed to flower.

Might try some hybrids myself next this year but it would be nice to know what others have in the pipeline so I could do something else.

David

[Eric Locke]

Hi Dave

Photo of the bulbs from cross one, are the entire survivors from the three flasks I ordered from this cross after one years growth in compost. Other crosses produced less survivors and a smaller variation in the bulb size.
I always order either two or three flasks of all my crosses, but sometimes poor germination, as in cross two photo gives me no choice.
With the number of cross permutations, most will still not have been registered by the time they reach flowering size although this is sure to happen sometimes . One of my crosses that is around two years away from flowering was registered (also by a German grower) this year which is a shame . I am however expecting very different results from this due to the very unusuall parent I have used . I am still looking forward to seeing the results even though I will not be able to register it.
I find most growers very secretive anyway about which crosses they are growing.

Eric

[Slug Killer]

Hi Eric

You will still be able to register it but as a group (Var). The German in question was probably one of the hybrids I registered for him. He did ask for me to do another which got registered days before I sent in the application by Mr Hazelton. I find it amazing that it can take all this time to reach flowering and then two people try to register the same hybrid within days of each other! Very different looking Pleione though.

One of the ones he registered was Alde Saran which I have growing from seed myself now. I registered them for two people this year Bergel and Blankenburg.

How many are in the conical flask?

Regards

David

[Pieter]

Hi all

Wonderful to see all these pictures. Thanks.

I guess that if more than one person thinks about making a specific cross it would put truth in the expresion "Great minds think alike".

About the secrecy with the made/developing crosses.
I guess there could be a system where you can register the cross before it is actually in flower. You singe a contract in witch you declare that you will make a specific cross, that you will have seedlings within 2 years and that you will have the new cross in flower after a period of an other 5 years or so, with the possibility to extend this period by 1 or 2 years.
If you succeed, the registration is completed and a registration number changes in to the chosen name. Or if you don’t it is cancelled and you or some one else can have an other go at it.

This method will probably give a lot more paperwork and might even ask for some way of checking up on all the made registrations.
It will make the registration of new crosses a bit less competitive but will also make it more stressful. Now you don’t have to fulfil  the job of getting a plant in flower within a limited time span.

Greetings

[Eric Locke]

David

Number of seedlings varies a great deal .Flask from photo of clone two only had five but others contain , over a hundred, although many are smaller than a pinhead through to a normal medium bulbil size.

Eric