Crocus October 2014

[de.da.]

Hello to all crocus -friends!
Zhirair - a very nice collection of speciosus!
I have problems to see the difference at my speciosus.

Here photos of Cr. serotinos ssp. salzmannii.
I hope they are real.









.. and Cr.speciosus `Aitchinsonii` (?)

Kind regards- Daniel

[Matt T]

A few more coming out here, despite the dull weather:

Crocus cartwrightianus 'Halloween' - a couple of weeks early and rather similar to 'Marcel' (reply #43), both being selections from CEH613
Crocus ligusticus - a different form to the one I showed before
Crocus mathewii HKEP 9291 - just for Maggi 

[udo]

Hello to all crocus -friends!
Zhirair - a very nice collection of speciosus!
I have problems to see the difference at my speciosus.

Here photos of Cr. serotinos ssp. salzmannii.
I hope they are real.









.. and Cr.speciosus `Aitchinsonii` (?)

Kind regards- Daniel

Hi Daniel,
your salzmannii is also a Crocus speciosus.

[Janis Ruksans]

Those "salzmannii" of course is speciosus.

Regarding speciosus cultivars, at present I'm certain only about 3 of old names
OXONIAN - comparatively later bloomer with deep purple flower tube. No one other is so deep coloured with such flower tube.
ALBUS - the single albino in general cultivation. Although there were some other white's (by B. Mathew monograph) really only Albus were on trade and that you can't mix with others.
ARTABIR - I suppose that stock grown by me is correct, although there are other different stocks reported under this name, too.
My cultivars were obtained more than 40 years ago and kept in my collection quite long, up to shortening of collection when I left with me only Artabir as one of best by my opinion.

My collection of speciosus cultivars was built up in this almost ancient time when bulbs were sold by grower of them. Mine came from 2 sources - former Van Tubergen when it was guided by Hoog's family and another collection I got from Institute of Ornamental Horticulture in Pruhonice (former Czechoslovakia). Comparing both I found that cultivars from both sources were identical. Now business in Holland is going in different way. Growers are not selling their bulbs to individual customers but are sold in bulk to resellers. So direct line between grower and buyer was broken. Reseller don't feel responsibility for correctness of name. Once I had amazing conversation with supplier of bulbs (reseller) - he asked me - you got autumn blooming crocus - where is the problem?
Another case was when seller wondered - the tulip which you planted had red flowers as you ordered - where is the problem?

As I wrote few days ago - I just returned from Gothenburg Botanical garden. They bought in Holland huge amount of various Crocus speciosus and pulchellus cultivars and now there blooms complete mix. As I wrote - only puchellus albus was true to name. By Dutch seller - no problems, all bloomed in autumn, so everything is OK. It is reason why nowadays you can't trust more to names of older cultivars. Only small nurseries offering own raised cultivars and selling directly to individuals still keeps responsibility for correctness of names. Of course - mistakes can happen. Mice can replace corm from box to box, human factor can't be 100% avoided. With me mistakes sometimes happens, too. But they are not in masses. And I'm replacing material if such things occasionally happens.

But I'm not more buying material from Holland. Once I had horrible story which broke my inland business in Latvia. I bought in Holland 6 boxes (1800 bulbs) of new double flowering lily variety. The company sold me ordinary lily of old variety, only on top of real label fixed wrong with name of ordered cultivar. I sold those bulbs. In result number of my Latvian customers from more than 1000 dropped to 300. I lost my name between lily growers of Latvia and I stopped my lily business. It was last time when I reselled Dutch bulbs. Now my wife are guiding inland business. We never more make direct sells of imported bulbs but are growing them at least one year before offering. Results are horrible, sometimes only 50 % are true to name. Mixes, viruses are very common.
Janis

[de.da.]

Hello Dirk and Janis- I feared it!
 
Most autumn- crocusses in trade are speciosus.
Nice flowers- but for collectors disappointing!!!
Most ochroleucus are not true, also speciosus varieties and pulchellus.
I will never buy at "normal"  (Internet-)stores anymore!!!
Pity for money so far!!!
The first special autumn crocus- bulb will bloom next days.
And its from Dirk. :-)

I look forward.
Daniel

[Robert]

More of the same here in California - The Dutch bulbs, many times, are not true to name. 

All the autumn blooming crocus I have brought recently have been C speciosus. It doesn't matter what the label states.

[Janis Ruksans]

More of the same here in California - The Dutch bulbs, many times, are not true to name. 

All the autumn blooming crocus I have brought recently have been C speciosus. It doesn't matter what the label states.

I only can repeat: you got autumn blooming crocus - where is the problem? Ha-ha-ha, if not so painfull for both pocket and collection...
KJanis

[Boyed]

Hi Zhirair.

A really lovely collection of Crocus speciosus you have. Like you I also find this species among the best in autumn !

The plant that I have here as Aichinsonii is just coming into flower while Oxonian and Aino - which are flowering now with your Poolux -  are long over. Furthermore my plants seem to have a brighter flowerbase, as far as I can judge from your photo of Pollux, so I don't think they are the same, even if the style looks the same... don't you have 'my' Aichinsonii anymore - I could send you some corms for comparision if you want.

I'm not sure if anybody can judge these old speciosus cultivars as true or not - I have received so many named cultivars from different sources and seldom they looked alike. Old photos or paintings from the original plants (Artabir registered in 1896, Aichinsonii in 1891!) I have never seen and even Johann van Scheepen from the KAVB doesn't have reliable material for comparision when we discussed about speciosus cultivars some years ago. I guess that only Oxonian (1945 registered) is true.

Meanwhile I simply enjoy the good forms of these wonderful plants that I have obtained and selected - no matter what their name is. Especially your selections do make a very good show    but from your photos Cassiope and Aino do look very alike....

Some years ago I found a plant with short but very strong flower tubes and dark veined petals. The tubes still stand strong when the flower is already withered.... ! I don't know what it is, but this plant must have been in cultivation in Holland from where I received it... Together with Artabir from Augis and Oxonian this is one of my favourites.

Thomas, thanks for your comments. My 'Pollux' is usually a late bloomer, but this year it surprisingly early. Actually autumn crocuses are misterious. The same varety can be early or late depending on the spot it is planted, or depending a year. No, I do not have your 'Aitchinsonii', but would like to have it very much, as it appeals to me a lot. So will be pleased for few corm, and maybe I can send you anything from my collection.

Your dark vained speciosus look quite pretty. I remember some years ago you also showed another your selection, a pale speciosus, that you named after your daugher.

It is true, nowadays it is very difficult to judge about Duct old cultivars being true or not; apart from phototsthere is even no detailed descriptions about them. My 'Aino' and 'Cassiope' are way too different. The reason you could have noticed the difference could be small pictures. I can't post alrge pics, as most of you do. The system requires 200 kb max size, and when I resize my photos to that size they become very small. My 'Aino' has average sizes, darker coulour, naroower petal, while 'Cassiope' is paler, with wide petals and is considreably large.

[Thomas Huber]

Janis, thank you for your detailed report - will be interesting to see what Zhirair will find out about 'your' Artabir when its flowering in his garden. And once again I think I'm doing right - not to collect speciosus for 'names' in future but only for 'beautiful flowers' 

Zhirair, of course it's difficult to judge true or not only from small photos - you have much better chance to do that in your garden.
Regarding a swap I will contact you privately.

At the end some photos of Crocus speciosus 'Celine' that I selected many years ago for its 3 beautiful soft stripes. It didn't flower for me in the last years because most corms died in 2012, but I found some surviving only yesterday 

Anne - if you read this: Do you still have 'Celine' in your collection?

[Thomas Huber]

Just found this photo made two weeks ago from my special strong and dark speciosus form.
You can see how the stems 'struggle' to fall down although the flower is already withered.
And you can see the dark blue colouring of the new flowers just coming out...

[de.da.]

Nice flowers...OK.
But if I go to restaurant and order a beef steak I don't want to have a chicken cutlet - even if both tastes good.
When I buy pulchellus I want pulchellus and when I buy ochroleucus I want them.
Daniel

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Nice flowers...OK.
But if I go to restaurant and order a beef steak I don't want to have a chicken cutlet - even if both tastes good.
When I buy pulchellus I want pulchellus and when I buy ochroleucus I want them.
Daniel

I don't think anyone will contradict you here, Daniel !!

[Robert]

Yes,

More agreement - when I buy C. cartwrightianus, I want C. cartwrightianus not speciosus.

Needless to say, I've complained to the local nursery (not that it will do any good) but also I will not buy bulbs from the large commercial suppliers. Even the larger bulb growers in the NW USA are own or controlled by the Dutch. Seems like a monopoly to me. And also an opportunity for the small grower. After all microsoft had a monopoly on PC operating systems - there product was so lousy it was one of the reasons that Apple computer was able to become what it is today (as I use my Apple computer). I don't think that the Dutch will go way (they seem to control much of the cut flower trade too), but we gardeners can buy from small, high quality growers.

Back to plants...    Thanks everyone for all the photos and discussion - all the autumn crocus are so nice! as I enjoy my C. speciosus.

[Maggi Young]

Well, it's true, the Dutch horticulture trade is HUGE- and there will be cases when sellers are only interested in bulk sales of "autumn crocus" or such - but it sounds here like "the Dutch" are ALL being criticised - and that is not fair, I think.

If we learn anything from this is it should be that it is often a good idea to support small growers - and yet, I know even they can make mistakes.

It is rather offensive, though, to make statements which criticise a whole nation, please don't do that.

[mark smyth]

Can I ask what is the difference between C. speciosus with pale orange style and dark orange style?