Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: krisderaeymaeker on November 18, 2012, 11:22:37 AM
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Previous year we take the opportunity to go to Crete in late autumn. The main target was find and see al Crocus-species in flower .
In november , Crete is a quiet and al the tourist are gone by that time ...
On some days you stil can have breakfast outside .
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Ofcourse , Crocus laevigatus is the most common of al ....
Just want to start with an image of the habitat .
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Kris,
It appears the native habitat for crocus is surprisingly rocky and the soil sparse. It looks to me like the ground would be quick drying and rather arid. I am eager to see photos of flowering species there. This sounds like a really nice trip to make.
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Kris,
I'm excited to see more images... :)
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Kris,
It appears the native habitat for crocus is surprisingly rocky and the soil sparse. It looks to me like the ground would be quick drying and rather arid. I am eager to see photos of flowering species there. This sounds like a really nice trip to make.
Hi Leon. Crocus laevigatus e.g. grows nearly everywhere . We see them growing in graslands, crevices,rocky places, beside roadsides,even in rocks ...
It was a really nice trip and I hope to give some evidences....
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Kris,
I'm excited to see more images... :)
Thanks Armin . I do my best to show you as much pictures as possible.
To start with Crocus laevigatus ....
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And the flowers from above ...
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Also sometimes laevigatus with yellow blush on the outside of the flowers .
Not the same yellow ofcourse as in the autumn-flowering Ranunculus bullatus who is flowering at the same time and place.
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Also sometimes laevigatus with yellow blush on the outside of the flowers .
Not the same yellow ofcourse as in the autumn-flowering Ranunculus bullatus who is flowering at the same time and place.
Excellent pictures. I like this one with yellow back. Never before saw such coloration in Craetan laevigatus. I think you noted the size of flowers? All Cretan laevigatus has much smaller flowers than those from Pelloponessus and other islands. Did you observe this?
Janis
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Nice laevigatus Chris please keep the pictures coming. Laevigatus are all lovely plants and one of my favourite crocus that's why I try to grow as many variations from seed as I can
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Ofcourse , Crocus laevigatus is the most common of al ....
Kris - very interesting to see the range of variation here; greater than I've seen in cultivated plants. Were they all in a single population?
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Excellent pictures. I like this one with yellow back. Never before saw such coloration in Craetan laevigatus. I think you noted the size of flowers? All Cretan laevigatus has much smaller flowers than those from Pelloponessus and other islands. Did you observe this?
Janis
Thanks Janis ! Oh yes , laevigatus on Crete has very smal flowers . Very often they are extremely smal (e.g.when they grow in rocks, crevices they are even smaller ...)
Sometimes they have bigger flowers but that is eighter an exception....The one with the yellow back was one of my favorites to ...
There is more to come....
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Nice laevigatus Chris please keep the pictures coming. Laevigatus are all lovely plants and one of my favourite crocus that's why I try to grow as many variations from seed as I can
Thanks Ian , I think I can show you more nice surprises ....I do my best next days to upload the pictures .
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Kris - very interesting to see the range of variation here; greater than I've seen in cultivated plants. Were they all in a single population?
Yes Gerry ,this is from one single population ! I was surprised myself .This was the first Crocus we see on this trip and it took already some time to take a lot of pics .....Just with the idea to show this variation . We spend al morning on this site..
But there was another reason ofcourse . There was another companion for our laevigatus .
On this picture we also see what Janis means ..The smal flowers of laevigatus .
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There was another companion for our laevigatus .
And the second Crocus we find : Crocus cartwrightianus . Crocus oreocreticus In the morning the flowers are stil closed .
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Again a lot of variaton on this species in one population of Crocus oreocreticus .....
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We drive further to our second site ...Cross some bridges and meet some other creatures . Stil on day 1 , today exactly 1 year ago ...
The orchis species are already in full leaf.
Again some Crocus laevigatus ....This time not so many plants in this populations but with bigger flowers as on site 1 .
But there is also another interesting bulb ...
Also a picture of this habitat ...
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Very nice populations (neat ,compact and lovely) of Colchicum pusillum
After this discovering , evening is on his way. The end of our first day of the Crocus-trip .
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Kris, what were temperatures like during your visit please?
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Fascinating to see the wild variation. Thanks for sharing these with us.
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Kris, what were temperatures like during your visit please?
Hello David , maximum we had during this period was 23 degrees. Most days was around 19/ 20 degrees , but when you leave the coastal area's and you go up into the mountains then temperatures wil soon go down .
West Crete was warmer then East Crete !
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Fascinating to see the wild variation. Thanks for sharing these with us.
Your welcome Tony. There is more to come ...
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Thank you Chris for sharing these interesting pictures!
Gerd
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Hello David , maximum we had during this period was 23 degrees. Most days was around 19/ 20 degrees , but when you leave the coastal area's and you go up into the mountains then temperatures wil soon go down .
West Crete was warmer then East Crete !
Many thanks Kris.
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Thank you Chris for sharing these interesting pictures!
Gerd
It is a pleasure to do Gerd. Must admit I have seen no Violas in this particular season ....but I am sure there are some other things you maybe like .... ;)
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Kris very nice crosi from wild ;) ;)
Thanks for sharing with us.
I think the second crocus is C. oreocreticus
With my best wishes..
ibrahim
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On the second day we decided to go to the both peninsulars of the western side of the island.
Never could neglect a visit to Rhodopou when we are there ....Ofcourse because I am Cyclamen-lover to.....But again in this case to look at Crocus. Altough before I've been never been that late in the season on Rhodopou to look at the status of Cyclamen graecum .
I heard of some observations of Crocus cartwrightianus at both places and that was an extra motivation ...
Bellis sylvestris was flowering to and Quercus coccifera is the ideal host for Cyclamen graecum .
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Thank you Kris for the images from Rhodopou, a nice reminder of a favourate location, must get back there again soon!
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Kris very nice crosi from wild ;) ;)
Thanks for sharing with us.
I think the second crocus is C. oreocreticus
With my best wishes..
ibrahim
Thank you for the compliments Ibrahim. I am happy to share.
I am very glad with your remark to !!! Honestly , I was hoping for such reaction ....
Because when I see some of the plants on situ I was thinking on oreocreticus to. But , ......I was always told that oreocreticus only is growing in the eastern parts of the island. The most eastern part where they grow (as described in most of the informations I could find) is the Nida-plain .... And the pics I was showing so far are from the western (southwest) parts of the island. The pics are from a part where only cartwrightianus grows as the earlier information is correct ?
And now ? Maybe some more investigation is necessary ?
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Thank you Kris for the images from Rhodopou, a nice reminder of a favourate location, must get back there again soon!
Happy to share Melvyn . Oh yes , I am fully agree with your quote ! Its certainly one of my favourite locations to . Always want to go back there and I am hoping that 2011 was not my last visit there ....
In general , Crete is a bit of my second home to ...
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Again a lot of populations of Crocus laevigatus on the peninsular ...
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Because we could not find Crocus cartwrightianus on Rhodopou :( we drive to the other peninsular ....
Maybe we where even are to early for cartwrightianus on Rhodopou ? Maybe Melvyn could confirm ? Or some other friends could ?
Maybe it was stil to dry during our visit to Rhodopou and cartwrightianus was stil underground ?
The pictures showing earlier where from locations higher up and this plants gets more moisture at that time ....
Any other observations are welcome . :)
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Again on Akrotiri peninsular we did not find any sign of Crocus cartwrightianus ....
On the other hand we could report some nice findings of Ranunculus bullatus there....
So I decide to drive to the first area again to investigate the area more detailed on Crocus cartwrightianus ....Crocus oreocreticus And as usual Ingrid - my better part -did find some interesting cartwrightianus .....oreocrteicus One of them is nearly a white one ..... Is this a white oreocreticus ?
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And the second Crocus we find : Crocus cartwrightianus . In the morning the flowers are stil closed .
Kris, this is another sign that they are not cartwrightianus!
you say that they were closed in the morning. So C. cartwrightianus flowers shouldn't be closed in the night!
Regards....
ibrahim.
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Kris, this is another sign that they are not cartwrightianus!
you say that they were closed in the morning. So C. cartwrightianus flowers shouldn't be closed in the night!
Regards....
ibrahim.
Thanks for your comments Ibrahim . It seems that oreocreticus is not confined to the east and middle of the island then.
Maybe the only difference is then the height where they grow ? Cartwrightianus as lowland specie and oreocreticus higher up ?
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There are many gorges on Crete . And it is always good to spend some time there .
Some other nice species grow there like Origanum dictamnus .
They grow in rocks and crevices .
On the ground we found this Mandragora officinarum in flower .
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We also find this yellow Senecio but I was looking for another yellow thing ...
Wich we find too ....one of my favorite autumnbulbs ...Sternbergia sicula .
This was a good form to ...
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In this area we also find this fantastic Crocus wich I identify as Crocus laevigatus. But it has big flowers and and some other caracteristics that maybe belong to tournefortii ...But they told me that tournefortii grows in the east of Crete ?
The end of the day we also find this georgeous little thing .....Again laevigatus with some yellow in the outside .
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I think you are right that it is Crocus laevigatus. Some look a bit like Crocus boryi but the outer colourings strongly suggest Crocus laevigatus so most likely all are that.. In my collection I have grown many different forms of Crocus laevigatis, it is very variable in flower size. The largest maybe three or four times bigger than the smallest!
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Kris,
A lovely sicula and C. leavigatus.
These pale forms of C. leavigatus looks like C. boryi but the shape of flower are tippiccul C. leavigstus.
I am enjoying lots with photos from wild :)
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Kris, thanks for this superb pictures of your trip!
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I think you are right that it is Crocus laevigatus. Some look a bit like Crocus boryi but the outer colourings strongly suggest Crocus laevigatus so most likely all are that.. In my collection I have grown many different forms of Crocus laevigatis, it is very variable in flower size. The largest maybe three or four times bigger than the smallest!
Thanks Tony . That's what I tought to , but I am not a specialist ....Only an (over)enthousiastic plants lover.... We have seen Crocus boryi , he comes later on ....
I was surprised on the variation we see in laevigatus populations . Most of them where small in Crete but in some occasions they produce much bigger flowers. You are right , there is no need to neglect them .Because of this variation it's a good plant for the Crocus collector .
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Kris,
A lovely sicula and C. leavigatus.
These pale forms of C. leavigatus looks like C. boryi but the shape of flower are tippiccul C. leavigstus.
I am enjoying lots with photos from wild :)
Thanks Ibrahim.Good to have some confirmations.
It is written many times on this forum....it is sometimes not easy to recognize the difference between laevigatus , boryi and tournefortii. And this is even more difficult on a picture . We did see boryi only in the southeast I think .....but these pictures are following next days ...
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Kris, thanks for this superb pictures of your trip!
Thanks for your compliment Hans . Happy I could share them with al this bulblovers ....
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Kris, what a trip - lots of fabulous flowers in the wild!
And you are a master in story telling - you keep us waiting in anticipation for the next part ;D
Poul
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Kris, what a trip - lots of fabulous flowers in the wild!
And you are a master in story telling - you keep us waiting in anticipation for the next part ;D
Poul
Thanks for this nice comments Poul ! I am afraid that I keep you waiting for another day .... , tomorrow we go further with this trip ...
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On day 4 we leave the sunny westside of Crete and we drive to the east ....
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We decide to take our time and we drive trough the middle part of Crete ...
We passed this mountain area where we drive up to 1100 metres height.
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This is a typical area for the high elevation forms of Crocus oreocreticus .
Sometimes dul forms but sometimes .....
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This is a typical area for the high elevation forms of Crocus oreocreticus .
Sometimes dul forms but sometimes .....
Stunning forms to ....
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Beautiful series of images, Kris ... thanks for posting.
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Beautiful series of images, Kris ... thanks for posting.
Thanks Cliff !
Some more Crocus oreocreticus ...
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And for the first time this trip : Colchicum cretense . ( I suppose nothing more then a heigh elevation form of pusillum ?)
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Kris lovely series of photographs,it seems to have been a very successful trip.
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Kris lovely series of photographs,it seems to have been a very successful trip.
Thanks a lot Tony . Yes this trip was a great succes and a joy. I have stil 3 days to go and some more surprises to show...
Two other Crocus species to find ...
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Time to start travel again :D
We are in the eastern part of Crete .One of the touristic places is ofcourse the Lasithi plateau. It is cold in the mountains and the windmills looks a bit sad in the fog.
Earlier on that morning we stil had breakfast outside , but this was in Malia who lies on the coast.
First bulb of the day is not a Crocus but Narcissus tazetta .
And the second is Colchicum cupanii. This is a very big form !
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But we don't have to wait that long to find Crocus tournefortii !
Not so many plants and so we drive a bit higher up .
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We drive to a place I knewed before and wich is a good Cyclamen site .
And yes , there we can find more Crocus tournefortii...
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Kris,
I enjoy your travel report at a dull and frosty weekend.
Lovely N. tazetta, C. cupanii and a nice clump of C. tournefortii 8)
Add the cyclamen :o ;D
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Kris,
I enjoy your travel report at a dull and frosty weekend.
Lovely N. tazetta, C. cupanii and a nice clump of C. tournefortii 8)
Add the cyclamen :o ;D
Thanks Armin .Yesterday morning we had some frost here . In the morning today a bit of sun and now it is cold and wet at the same time ....Yes , the best thing we can do now is watching images from a Mediterean place like Crete .
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yes, more please ;) ;D
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We are enjoying this trip here in snowy Aberdeen, too, Kris. Just what is needed in December!
All the photos are good but I must make mention of the fantastic arrow-leaved Cyclamen in image
1111_Kreta 2011_1427 ....beautiful!
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We are enjoying this trip here in snowy Aberdeen, too, Kris. Just what is needed in December!
All the photos are good but I must make mention of the fantastic arrow-leaved Cyclamen in image
1111_Kreta 2011_1427 ....beautiful!
Hello there Maggi, happy to hear that you both enjoying ...Oh my goodnes already snow....Just hope that the snow keep away here for a while. It was the first time that I did see such an arrow-leaved Cyclamen graecum to . I did see this before on hederifolium but never on graecum . Best regards on Ian to .
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More Crocus tournefortii ..........
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And the last series of tournefortii
What you think of the yellow one ?
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Thanks again for the photos of your Crete trip Kris.....I think the yelllow one is amazing!!
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Incredible :o :o :o Kris
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Superb Pictures Kris!!!
What you think of the yellow one ?
Just Wow! :o
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Kris,
these are fantastic photos with some amazing forms. Thanks for sharing them with us.
By the way, have you seen Biarum?
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This yellow looks incredible. My autumn trip to Crete few years ago was too early - in October. So I saw only few crocuses and they turned natural hybrid between boryi and tournefortii, unfortunately lost last winter.
Janis
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Another wonderful journey, Kris.
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Thank you Cliff,Janis,Oron,Hans,Dave,Melvyn for al the nice comments. Stil 2 days to go and 2 plants to search .....Crocus boryi and Biarum davisii.
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Superb Pictures Kris!!!
Just Wow! :o
Incredible :o :o :o Kris
Thanks again for the photos of your Crete trip Kris.....I think the yelllow one is amazing!!
The only thing was that the flowers stays closed Melvyn,Hans and Dave . It was a cloudy and bit coldy day and they came not open ...
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Kris,
these are fantastic photos with some amazing forms. Thanks for sharing them with us.
By the way, have you seen Biarum?
The only thing we did not found was the Biarum davisii Oron . I have looked for it on several locations . I think it is flowering in october on Crete and that's why I did not found it ? On the other hand it is scarce to I suppose .
So there is a reason to go back sometimes....
I grow the both varietys at home but here they do not flowering very wel ! So I was interested to see how the conditions are in Crtete
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This yellow looks incredible. My autumn trip to Crete few years ago was too early - in October. So I saw only few crocuses and they turned natural hybrid between boryi and tournefortii, unfortunately lost last winter.
Janis
Before the start of this trip I was afraid that we are to late Janis . But we have luck , as you can see we are stil on time ....
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And the last series of tournefortii
What you think of the yellow one ?
Wonderfull pictures Chris!
Concerning the yellow one: in the south-east of Crete C. tournefortii grows together with C. boryi and they hybridises each other.
if this pictures are taken in the south-east, probably this crocus should be C. boryi???
Hendrik - Belgium
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Kris - I too have wondered about the identity of your yellow crocus. According to Brian Mathew, the only member of series Laevigatae which can sometimes have yellow flowers (externally) is C. laevigatus. Were your plants isolated or part of a larger population? I am rather doubtful that it is C. boryi x tournefortii - since all the plants I have seen (in photos & in the flesh) of that hybrid have been white. However, I suppose something new is always possible.
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Wonderfull pictures Chris!
Concerning the yellow one: in the south-east of Crete C. tournefortii grows together with C. boryi and they hybridises each other.
if this pictures are taken in the south-east, probably this crocus should be C. boryi???
Hendrik - Belgium
Hello Hendrik , thanks for your compliment. This pictures are taken in the north-east. At this place not any sign of something that looks like boryi to me .Al pictures are from the same area and in this population al flowering Crocus I would identify as tournefortii .But I agree that it is very difficult sometimes .I think we only find boryi growing in the sout-east. But I am not an expert and maybe I am wrong ...
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Kris - I too have wondered about the identity of your yellow crocus. According to Brian Mathew, the only member of series Laevigatae which can sometimes have yellow flowers (externally) is C. laevigatus. Were your plants isolated or part of a larger population? I am rather doubtful that it is C. boryi x tournefortii - since all the plants I have seen (in photos & in the flesh) of that hybrid have been white. However, I suppose something new is always possible.
Hello Gerry .It was not a very big population and al this plants where growing on one hillside .They only grew near the road , higher up there was nearly nothing.
In the morning we find few plants in the same area but much lower .
My first idea of the yellow one was also laevigatus but I could not find other plants in this population that I could identify as laevigatus ...
So I did had questions to ..... As I say , for me the only boryi we did see was in the south-east. But I am not an expert and anny comment is welcome !
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And the last series of tournefortii
What you think of the yellow one ?
If Crocus laevigatus can have white, yellow backed flowers, why not also a rare form of Crocus tournefortii? BUT ;) All the Crocus tournefortii you have pictured have flowers open or partly so, typical for a plant where the flowers stay open in poor weather and at night. The yellow backed white are very closed, despite being well developed above the leaves, ie not 'just emerged'. So I think these are likely Crocus laevigatus, of which I have seen other, similar forms in cultivation.
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If Crocus laevigatus can have white, yellow backed flowers, why not also a rare form of Crocus tournefortii? BUT ;) All the Crocus tournefortii you have pictured have flowers open or partly so, typical for a plant where the flowers stay open in poor weather and at night. The yellow backed white are very closed, despite being well developed above the leaves, ie not 'just emerged'. So I think these are likely Crocus laevigatus, of which I have seen other, similar forms in cultivation.
Thanks Tony for your comment ! Then maybe it was a mixed population anyway ? Is it possible that only this one laevigatus was growing in a tournefortii population ? They also told me that laevigatus is more or less confined to the west and middle part of the island ?Here we are in the north-east. This is maybe a good excuse to go back for closer examination ;D
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Kris. Maybe it is a question of timing. What would you see if you were there two weeks later (or another year later)? Perhaps there will be many Crocus laevigatus later and few Crocus tournefortii. I heard of someone who revisited a known population of white Crocus goulimyi to find more blues than whites.
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Kris. Maybe it is a question of timing. What would you see if you were there two weeks later (or another year later)? Perhaps there will be many Crocus laevigatus later and few Crocus tournefortii. I heard of someone who revisited a known population of white Crocus goulimyi to find more blues than whites.
Thanks Tony . Yes ,could be the right explanation . But nevertheless , I feel the need to go back again ;D
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Thanks Tony . Yes ,could be the right explanation . But nevertheless , I feel the need to go back again ;D
If it is laevigatus it would be interesting to know if there are hybrids.
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If it is laevigatus it would be interesting to know if there are hybrids.
Yes sure Davey , more investigation on this subject would be nice....
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Kris very nice crosi from wild ;) ;)
Thanks for sharing with us.
I think the second crocus is C. oreocreticus
With my best wishes..
ibrahim
I have looked for the differences between cartwrightianus and oreocreticus .....
Because I try to understand the remarks from Ibrahim (not that I not believe his remarks ,but it is not fully clear to me)
And I did not find many information in the books I know/have or on the internet. Janis write in his book that oreocreticus grows from aprox. 1100m and not lower. And also only in the east and the middle part of the island . The plants I showed earlier are seen on an elevation of 500metres .So much lower then 1000m and also not in the east and middle of the island. Ibrahim said that the main difference is that the flowers of cartwrightianus stays open during night. That's a main difference , but now I regret that I not look carefully on this difference (maybe because I did not expect oreocreticus there ....)Are there more differences ?
Are there more records from oreocreticus below 1000m or more to the west of Nida plains ?
Is this the first finding of oreocreticus in that part of the island ?.....And so on ...
Sorry for al these questions but always happy to learn an understand more ....Al reactions on this subject are welcom in this topic or with PM.
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Kris - according to Mathew the most significant morphological difference between C. cartwrightianus & C. oreocreticus is that the former has a ring of hairs in the throat. He also claims that the latter is not found below 1000m.
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Kris - according to Mathew the most significant morphological difference between C. cartwrightianus & C. oreocreticus is that the former has a ring of hairs in the throat. He also claims that the latter is not found below 1000m.
Thanks Gerry , did'nt look for that difference to :-[ But it is at least something we can have an eye on it in the near future.
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Hi Kris,
I am attaching the link of Kees Jan to see how does iC. cartwrightianus looks in mainland!
http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Europe/Greece-Peloponnese-and-Attica/15285711_8Db9Kw# (http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Europe/Greece-Peloponnese-and-Attica/15285711_8Db9Kw#)!i=1151001672&k=QfBdwVh
()I couldn’t attaché correctly here. Just after pages 53)
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Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
the crocuses which are in your photos;
They have silver or skin color on outer petals
They have slender pointed petals
The style was just at the anthers level or a little longer
The shape of flowers is slender
All of these features shows that they belong to C. oreocreticus.
I don’t know How they are distribute in Crete! and no idea for hair in throath.
ibrahim
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I have looked for the differences between cartwrightianus and oreocreticus .....
Because I try to understand the remarks from Ibrahim (not that I not believe his remarks ,but it is not fully clear to me)
And I did not find many information in the books I know/have or on the internet. Janis write in his book that oreocreticus grows from aprox. 1100m and not lower. And also only in the east and the middle part of the island . The plants I showed earlier are seen on an elevation of 500metres .So much lower then 1000m and also not in the east and middle of the island. Ibrahim said that the main difference is that the flowers of cartwrightianus stays open during night. That's a main difference , but now I regret that I not look carefully on this difference (maybe because I did not expect oreocreticus there ....)Are there more differences ?
Are there more records from oreocreticus below 1000m or more to the west of Nida plains ?
Is this the first finding of oreocreticus in that part of the island ?.....And so on ...
Sorry for al these questions but always happy to learn an understand more ....Al reactions on this subject are welcom in this topic or with PM.
I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. I think that best way to separate both is just the habit to keep flowers open in darkness by cartwrightianus and closing by oreocreticus. That I observed invariably in my collection. The hairs in throat can help, too. By materials for Flora of Greece seen by me oreocreticus was found at altitudes from 910 m up to 1900 m (by herbarium samples). On attached picture you can see localities from where oreocreticus is known. Picture is bad as the original file format isn't accepted by Forum, so I printed, marked, scanned and attached. My right hand at present (for around month) not works after surgical treatment, so quality is poor.
Janis
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Kris - More from Mathew: he states that the only populations of C. cartwrightianus known to exist in Crete are near Khania, especially on the Akrotiri peninsula. However this is based on an old observation (1978) so may well be out-of-date.
As regards the 'silvery' exterior of the flowers of C. oreocreticus - some forms of C. cartwrightianus I grow could be described in this way; it depends upon how one interprets colour terms. Mathew states that he found plants in Crete with 'silvery' exteriors but in all other respects they were typical C. cartwrightianus.
Furthermore, although it is true that the flowers of C. cartwrightianus remain open at night, in my experience this is only the case for flowers which have completely expanded; 'young' flowers can remain partially closed.
I remain convinced - following Mathew - that the reliable way of distinguishing between the species is by the presence or absence of hairs in the throat.
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Crocus cartwrightianus distribution on Crete (by Flora of Greece materials). Altitudes for this species are between 2 m to 850 m.
Janis
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Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
ibrahim
That is exactly what I thought Ibrahim ! You have to forgive me, I always wants to learn
Kris,
I said your crocus C. oreocreticus not only because of they close in night!
the crocuses which are in your photos;
They have silver or skin color on outer petals
They have slender pointed petals
The style was just at the anthers level or a little longer
The shape of flowers is slender
All of these features shows that they belong to C. oreocreticus.
I don’t know How they are distribute in Crete! and no idea for hair in throath.
ibrahim
Many many thanks Ibrahim ! I appreciate the effort you made to help me with this ! 8) This is so interesting and helpful to me. Much appreciate it. And this is also one of the many great advantages of this forum. It is so nice that we can discussed things like that and learn much about our plants ! Now things getting clear to me ....
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On attached picture you can see localities from where oreocreticus is known. Picture is bad as the original file format isn't accepted by Forum, so I printed, marked, scanned and attached. My right hand at present (for around month) not works after surgical treatment, so quality is poor.
Janis
Many many thanks Janis . This map is also very helpful ! I even have interest in getting this map in the original format.
I send you a PM about this matter ...
Wish you al the best with the healing of your hand !
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I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. Janis
Janis do you know if there is somebody who keeps a database of al the known habitats of Crocus ? Maybe that would be interesting ? For Colchicum they do .....
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By materials for Flora of Greece seen by me oreocreticus was found at altitudes from 910 m up to 1900 m (by herbarium samples). Janis
So maybe this is a new find ? We find them below 600m ( have to look for more accurate data but certainly below 600m)
Don't know if there are other people who find them at this altitude ...
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I never saw oreocreticus in wild but I'm growing seedlings from wild collected seeds (by my Australian friend) at Cave of Zeus, Nidi plain, Mnt. Idi, Crete. Janis
Janis , we find them also on the Nida plains . We did'nt go to Cave of Zeus ...
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For Colchicum they do .....
Hi Kris,
Enjoying this thread very much. :)
Forgive my ignorance but ... who do for Colchicum, and where please?
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I remain convinced - following Mathew - that the reliable way of distinguishing between the species is by the presence or absence of hairs in the throat.
Great you help me on this matter Gerry ! Maybe I have to look very close to my pictures ? But I suppose that 's to late now (pictures maybe don't show this details) and next time I have to look closer when we are in the field ...
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Kris - More from Mathew: he states that the only populations of C. cartwrightianus known to exist in Crete are near Khania, especially on the Akrotiri peninsula. However this is based on an old observation (1978) so may well be out-of-date.
That is about the same as the map from Janis shows us Gerry ...
However we did search whole day on the Akrotiri peninsula and did'nt find them overthere ....But is a big area ...
But it become very clear to me , we could not see cartwrightianus ....
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Crocus cartwrightianus distribution on Crete (by Flora of Greece materials). Altitudes for this species are between 2 m to 850 m.
Janis
This is once more another evidence Janis , we did not see cartwrightianus but oreocreticus ...
Many thanks for this map .
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Hi Kris,
Enjoying this thread very much. :)
Forgive my ignorance but ... who do for Colchicum, and where please?
Thanks Ron , Karin Person from Sweden does .
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Just want to know that I changes names in my first postings ....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9780.0 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9780.0)
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Now that this matter on cartwrightianus and oreocreticus is solved ... ;) we can go further with this trip.
And first - before we search for Crocus boryi - I want to show you some Sternbergia sicula from the east ...
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Thanks Ron , Karin Person from Sweden does .
OK thanks. Is it a private database, or is there a pathway we can follow to share in the information? :)
"Now that this matter on cartwrightianus and oreocreticus is solved" ................. it is?? Did I miss something? ??? ??? I didn't think they could be separated until hair studies were done in the field ??? And then............ ??? ::)
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"Now that this matter on cartwrightianus and oreocreticus is solved" ................. it is?? Did I miss something? ??? ??? I didn't think they could be separated until hair studies were done in the field ??? And then............ ??? ::)
I think it is Ron .... Now I remember also that most of the flowers where closed when we are there on a cloudy day .(did also checked al my pictures , have more pics then I could show) Also maps from Janis with distribution of cartwrightianus shows me a lot . Our findings are surely on other locations .And this maps also fit with the information from Brian Mathew.
But I would be good to look for the hairs from species in the wild ...and I am stil a candidate to do this study ;D
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OK thanks. Is it a private database, or is there a pathway we can follow to share in the information? :)
Some of her data was on the internet few years ago, but I am not sure it is stil available ....
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But I would be good to look for the hairs from species in the wild ...and I am stil a candidate to do this study ;D
You might not understand this typically British play on words, Kris - but the above might make you 'the heir apparent'? :D
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Great you help me on this matter Gerry ! Maybe I have to look very close to my pictures ? But I suppose that 's to late now (pictures maybe don't show this details) and next time I have to look closer when we are in the field ...
The throat hairs are clearly visible to the naked eye (even to my aged eyes!) but I don't know whether they would be apparent on a photo.
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Stunning pictures Kris !
I'm just reading your posts and for sure it was a very successful trip .
Pity for Biarum and.. another question : did you find Androcymbium reichingerii flowers ?
Thank's for sharing all this stuff :)
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The throat hairs are clearly visible to the naked eye (even to my aged eyes!) but I don't know whether they would be apparent on a photo.
I keep you informed about this Gerry !
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Stunning pictures Kris !
I'm just reading your posts and for sure it was a very successful trip .
Pity for Biarum and.. another question : did you find Androcymbium reichingerii flowers ?
Thank's for sharing all this stuff :)
Thanks Fred ! Glad you like it . Oh yes , this was a great trip ! Before we left, we are a bit concerned ....We talk a lot with other friends (like Hendrik and many others ) and most other experiences from trips like that are from october . We did think that we are much to late for a lot of things ...But we are in the right time for the most. So we are lucky !
Yes the Biarum was a pitty ....but if I get the chance I go back for that one ....
We did not see Androcymbium to ....Yes , ofcourse ....now I realise that we have missed that one to....I think I have some locations of this one ...(and it must be flowering that time ?) Another reason to go back .... ;D
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You might not understand this typically British play on words, Kris - but the above might make you 'the heir apparent'? :D
??? ??? ??? ???
I do what you have done a lot of times ,some weeks ago Cliff .....I used google translate and .....could not understand it ::) ::) :-\
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Even a very detailed explanation would leave you just as confused, Kris ... forgive me for inflicting this on you. ??? ::) :P :P :-[
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Kris - I haven't kept a strict count - but I think you have around thirty reasons for a return trip - so far!!
Cliff - I'm looking forward to your explanation of heir apparent........can't believe you are chickening out..... ;D
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Even a very detailed explanation would leave you just as confused, Kris ... forgive me for inflicting this on you. ??? ::) :P :P :-[
No problem Cliff...I keep this in mind for the next time we meet each other :) We have maybe more time and it is more easy then in a written conversation ...
Or maybe I find the solution myself , sometimes I am a bit "diehard" .... ;D ;)
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My dear Maggi ... a few weeks ago Kris and I were having fun on the VRV website trying to translate many paragraphs about 'drool' (don't ask) and that proved hard enough!!!!! ;D
Kris, do you have many words in Flemish that are spelt slightly differently, but pronounced 'nearly' the same?
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Kris - I haven't kept a strict count - but I think you have around thirty reasons for a return trip - so far!!
;D :D
I am always good to find excuses for such things Maggi ......And I am lucky.... I am always able to convince my lady ..
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Kris, do you have many words in Flemish that are spelt slightly differently, but pronounced 'nearly' the same?
Yes Cliff , is this my first hint ?
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My dear Maggi ... a few weeks ago Kris and I were having fun on the VRV website trying to translate many paragraphs about 'drool' (don't ask) and that proved hard enough!!!!! ;D
I know, I saw that....... I am a VRV member, of course!!
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I'm not going to get away with this am I? ;D
Firstly, hair and heir are pronounced almost identically (perfectionists will protest at this, but never mind about them for the purposes of this explanation). ::)
An 'heir apparent' is a legal term in the UK for someone who will inherit certain property even if another potential heir comes along.
My 'joke' (which I now bitterly regret :-X ;D) meant that you were the only one with a right to check for hairs even if another potential volunteer came along.
See ... you are still completely confused. :P :P :P ;D
Of course you are my dear Maggi ... and you can probably speak Flemish like a native?
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Of course you are my dear Maggi ... and you can probably speak Flemish like a native?
You MUST be joking!
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I'm not going to get away with this am I? ;D
Firstly, hair and heir are pronounced almost identically (perfectionists will protest at this, but never mind about them for the purposes of this explanation). ::)
An 'heir apparent' is a legal term in the UK for someone who will inherit certain property even if another potential heir comes along.
My 'joke' (which I now bitterly regret :-X ;D) meant that you were the only one with a right to check for hairs even if another potential volunteer came along.
See ... you are still completely confused. :P :P :P ;D
Of course you are my dear Maggi ... and you can probably speak Flemish like a native?
Cliff ,I maybe could not understand the plot as you do but I am able to understand things roughly ! :D
Are we quit now ? ;D ;)
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Oh yes ... please!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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As I wrote earlier my autumn visit to Crete was too early and I saw crocuses only at single spot. Crocus was very strange. At first I named it boryi, although flowers were lilac but in cultivation it closed flowers in night. After corresponding with Brian Mathew we came to conclusion that it most likely is hybrid between laevigatus and tournefortii. Most confusing is 2nd picture (#3). It looks that both flowers comes out from same corm but they are completely different. As usually I collected only 3 corms, unfortunately all were lost last winter - frost was too hard.
Janis
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Few pictures of Cretan cartwrightianus received by me from Erich Pasche.
Janis
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Interesting to see C. cartwrightianus from Crete. They appear indistinguishable from plants derived from a collection on Evvia (CEH613) in flower now.
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Here variability in cartwrightianus from Evvia (CEH613)
Janis
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As I wrote earlier my autumn visit to Crete was too early and I saw crocuses only at single spot. Crocus was very strange. At first I named it boryi, although flowers were lilac but in cultivation it closed flowers in night. After corresponding with Brian Mathew we came to conclusion that it most likely is hybrid between laevigatus and tournefortii. Most confusing is 2nd picture (#3). It looks that both flowers comes out from same corm but they are completely different. As usually I collected only 3 corms, unfortunately all were lost last winter - frost was too hard.
Janis
Hmmm , maybe the plants shown by Janis looks much the same as the tournefortii I showed earlier..?Don't you think so...?
Could not see the details on the map but I think it is almost the same area we have been ..
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Few pictures of Cretan cartwrightianus received by me from Erich Pasche.
Janis
Very interesting .
Thanks for showing Janis , the only thing is .....I get maybe confused again ... Except from the fact that the flowers stays open during night maybe the hairs in the throat are still of great importance ?
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................... maybe the hairs in the throat are still of great importance ?
Or maybe they are all one big happy family, but a few are hairier in the throat than others :o
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Or maybe they are all one big happy family, but a few are hairier in the throat than others :o
Oh yes ,that's another possibility Ron . Another explanation is that they are all cartwrightianus or all are oreocreticus ...Then again we have the story of lumping and splitting. ;D But that's a discussion far to complicate for an ordinary lover of plants like me! But such matters has my interest to and as say earlier , I am always happy to learn ...So it is a double feeling..
And sometimes I worry about such things and I am not happy that I not have the knowledge to find out such things .But that's me .... :-\
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...........and I am not happy that I not have the knowledge to find out such things .But that's me .... :-\
Me too Kris, :-\
But then ...... who does?????
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Ron you took the words right out of my mouth ???
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Very interesting .
Thanks for showing Janis , the only thing is .....I get maybe confused again ... Except from the fact that the flowers stays open during night maybe the hairs in the throat are still of great importance ?
According to Mathew (whose monograph remains, in most respects, definitive): "C. cartwrightianus can.... be distinguished from the former [C. oreocreticus] by having a ring of hairs in the throat of the flower". AND, "C. cartwrightianus is one of the two species whose flowers, once they have opened, do not close up at night or in dull weather...... the other is C. tournefortii." (The Crocus, 1982, p56)
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Offcourse Gerry , I can understand what's Mathew saying.
It is not easy to make myself clear sometimes because my English is not so perfect .
But I just want to express that's difficult to see on pictures .....When you just have a look to the pictures you would say it is the same. And when I only see the pictures from Janis I was only thinking , oh they look just similar like the oreocreticus we did see. And then I start realise again that the hairs would make the difference (and the opening of flowers at night)
The difference (the hairs eg )is not that big ,these are small details (certainly on pictures). And I regret that I did not look for the hairs when we where in Crete. And the other question I want to ask (and not answer myself because I am not a botanist): are those differences big enough to separate them. That's something for splitters and lumpers ...And then I make the conclusion that I maybe have not the right knowledge to make such decissions .
Pooh , not always easy in an other language to let other people understand what you really want to say ... ;)At least thats my impression , but I keep trying ... :D
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Pooh , not always easy in an other language to let other people understand what you really want to say ...
Don't worry, Kris - it's not always easy to do that in the same language! ;)
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The last episode of my trip .....We try to find Crocus boryi .
But first we did find this autumnal flowering Anemone coronaria . The first time I did see something like that. Afterwards I read about it on this forum .
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And some more ......
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Don't worry, Kris - it's not always easy to do that in the same language! ;)
Oh yes Maggi , that's right :D
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Very attractive Anemones - thank you for showing these plants (for the rest also of course).
Gerd
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It looks as Anemone heldreichii? Dwarf?
Janis
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Kris,
Those anemones are in such a nice variety of colors. Amazing.
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Very attractive Anemones - thank you for showing these plants (for the rest also of course).
Gerd
Thank you Gerd .
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Kris,
Those anemones are in such a nice variety of colors. Amazing.
Yes Leon , the range of colours is amazing ....but it is even more amazing hat they flower in autumn. Normally they do this in spring...
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It looks as Anemone heldreichii? Dwarf?
Janis
We did see heldreichii in march Janis .Looks a bit different to me. But maybe I can show you pictures....
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The last Crocus we search for was not easily to find ....
We are almost in the right area when we see this Clematis cirrhosa .
Also another very attractive Sternbergia just beside of the road .
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Who expect to find flowering Crocus in such an area ? During this trip we find them in totally different habitat
This was a very dry area with a kind of yellow sandy soil . The soil was very special , it looks rather like "cement" I don't know this word is used in English ?
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Eventually Ingrid find some Crocus ! (I didn't think to find any in this area and soil )
Is this Crocus boryi ....? Flowers are much bigger (the largest ones we see on our trip ) and more cup shaped .
When we are in Crete I tought they where boryi .
We are in the southeast in the right area for boryi.
At home ,I sometimes doubt ....
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Some more pictures ....And some of them look even like tournefortii when I see the pictures now ....Very difficult again ...
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Some other plants in this area ....
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Some more Crocus ....boryi ?
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I was a sunny but windy and cold day ....but good weather to make al this pictures ...
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Some more pictures ....And some of them look even like tournefortii when I see the pictures now ....Very difficult again ...
Some more Crocus ....boryi ?
Kris - very interesting photos. May I suggest that you try to borrow a copy of The Crocus by Brian Mathew? He has a detailed discussion of C. boryi & C. tournefortii on Crete, their distribution & probable hybrids between them.
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Kris - very interesting photos. May I suggest that you try to borrow a copy of The Crocus by Brian Mathew? He has a detailed discussion of C. boryi & C. tournefortii on Crete, their distribution & probable hybrids between them.
Thanks Gerry . That's what I already done ....but I don't had an occasion to look at it ...
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Also another very attractive Sternbergia just beside of the road .
Kris, was the majority of the Sternbergias over at the time of your visit?
Gerd
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Kris, was the majority of the Sternbergias over at the time of your visit?
Gerd
Hi Gerd , I think that october is a better month for Sternbergia ....But we stil see a lot of Sternbergia in flower . It depends also on the location .On some locations the most flowers are over but on other locations we are at the right time. Another thing, I think they spread there flowering time a bit and that's a good solution in nature.
But if only would go for Sternbergia I choose october ...
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In 2006 from 8-13th of October I saw only 2 clumps of Sternbergia at very start of blooming.
Janis
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Kris & Janis:
Thanks for advices. It seems the start of flowering time for autumn bulbs depends on
the first powerful rains combined with dropping temperatures in a repective year.
Gerd
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Kris & Janis:
Thanks for advices. It seems the start of flowering time for autumn bulbs depends on
the first powerful rains combined with dropping temperatures in a repective year.
Gerd
I think that's right Gerd . But also elevation,habitat ( and maybe more) have more or less influence.But another thing ....I think that Sternbergia is a bulb that have a very quick reaction on mositure ! I think it reacts faster then other bulbs (Crocus,Colchicum eg) on the changing circumstances (from dry to moist).
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Some more Crocus ....boryi ?
Hummm , not many ideas about this ? ;D And I stil have to show more difficult ones to identify ..... :-\
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I think that's right Gerd . But also elevation,habitat ( and maybe more) have more or less influence.But another thing ....I think that Sternbergia is a bulb that have a very quick reaction on mositure ! I think it reacts faster then other bulbs (Crocus,Colchicum eg) on the changing circumstances (from dry to moist).
Temperarture is even most important - many autumn crocuses bloom in boxes as well as Colchicums, Sternbergias - before planting of them and watering.
Another aspect is "inner clock" - I had Crocus speciosus stock which allways bloomed in box at end of July or start of August when temperatures still are high and air dry. Similar are C. suworovianus and some others. Earlier about this wrote Oron explaining early blooming of autumn crocuses in desert before serious dropping of temperature and long before autumn rains started.
Janis
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Temperarture is even most important - many autumn crocuses bloom in boxes as well as Colchicums, Sternbergias - before planting of them and watering.
Another aspect is "inner clock" - I had Crocus speciosus stock which allways bloomed in box at end of July or start of August when temperatures still are high and air dry. Similar are C. suworovianus and some others. Earlier about this wrote Oron explaining early blooming of autumn crocuses in desert before serious dropping of temperature and long before autumn rains started.
Janis
Oh yes , it is complicated Janis . I suppose that they sometimes needs a mix from different aspects to wake up again...
And Oron told me lately (discussion weekend 2012)that the dropping of night temperature the most important aspect is concerning temperatures ....
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Again some Crocus from the Crocus boryi area ...But with some other appearance .... :-\
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Kris,
very nice forms. Can't tell you by image what species or natural hybrids they are (boryi x tournefortii, x leavigatus)
Would be nice to know flower size, and if flowers close at night or stay open and how corms look like.
Probably you have to go there again to check it ;) ;D
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Kris,
very nice forms. Can't tell you by image what species or natural hybrids they are (boryi x tournefortii, x leavigatus)
Would be nice to know flower size, and if flowers close at night or stay open and how corms look like.
Probably you have to go there again to check it ;) ;D
Thanks Armin . I hoped that al those specialists on this forum could help with this....The moment I arrived in this area and we have seen the first 10 or 15 plants I tought that we only have seen boryi ! I was sure about them ....and I made a conclusion based on this plants .....I tought this is clear and I started to made as much pictures as possible. Because we have to drive a lot back to the hotel we have to leave quick (we lost a lot of time to find this boryi.......) Next day we have to leave home in the afternoon. So it was not possible to go back. Back home I start to realise (when I see the pictures )that maybe al plants that I have pictured are not boryi ::) :-\
But then it was to late. So any help is welcome. The other solution is go back ...
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Again some Crocus from the Crocus boryi area ...But with some other appearance .... :-\
They look within the variation of Crocus tournefortii although the white maybe C boryi.
It's been great to share the trip you made!
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They look within the variation of Crocus tournefortii although the white maybe C boryi.
It's been great to share the trip you made!
Thanks Tony.!
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The day before we left Crete ....We stil search for Biarum and we could not find it . A very touristic picture : a view towards Spinalonga .
In this area not much Crocus but many Sternbergia ...
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Not much more then one hour before our departure to Belgium ....Stil taking pictures in the field ....
The last Crocus we have seen on the island : Crocus tournefortii near Heraklion where our plain is waiting to take us back .
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That's al folks ! This is the end of this trip ....I thank you al for your interest in this topic , nice comments and very helpful information ! 8)
It was our seventh time we visit Crete and hopefully not the last time .In march from previous year we have also visited Crete to watch springflowering Crocus and others .
We have enjoyed this trip themselves and we have been happy with the result . :D 8)
Cu
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Kris,
Thank you very much for your report again and especially for the 'extra' stunning Sternbergia pics!
Gerd
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Thank you Kris!
It was great to look at the pretty pictures.
Thanks for your hard work!
Like to see more of it!
Thank you-Daniel
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Hi Kris.
Wonderful report, great photos and lots of useful information,
many thanks for posting your holiday here.
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Hi Kris.
Wonderful report, great photos and lots of useful information,
many thanks for posting your holiday here.
Hi Thomas, I had been expecting you here . Same interest , ...... :D ;)
Thanks for your nice comments.
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Kris,
Thank you very much for your report again and especially for the 'extra' stunning Sternbergia pics!
Gerd
Thank you Kris!
It was great to look at the pretty pictures.
Thanks for your hard work!
Like to see more of it!
Thank you-Daniel
Thanks for your compliments guys .
The pleasure was on my side to Gerd and Daniel .
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Kris,
Thank you for your exciting travel report. It was a good and realistic way to give smaller reports over many days. It has given many interesting reactions and discussions and I am sure that you have had fun writing the report.
I have followed your report closely. It is very nice to see my two favorite species Sternbergia and Crocus in the wild.
Poul
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Kris,
Thank you for your exciting travel report. It was a good and realistic way to give smaller reports over many days. It has given many interesting reactions and discussions and I am sure that you have had fun writing the report.
I have followed your report closely. It is very nice to see my two favorite species Sternbergia and Crocus in the wild.
Poul
Thanks Poul ! 8) To be honest I had hoped for some interaction.I had hoped for the many responses and hoped to provoke the discussion by the various breaks . I want to share al this pictures but I want to learn to ....So you are right , I had a lot of fun with writing this report. It give me a lot of satisfaction.And the nice comments are such rewarding .
Both genera are some of my favorite species to! So I hope to find anough time in the future to come back again with such reports .
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Kris,
I just want to add my thanks also. This has been an interesting topic and good discussion. I hope you have the opportunity to return to Crete soon.
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Kris,
I just want to add my thanks also. This has been an interesting topic and good discussion. I hope you have the opportunity to return to Crete soon.
Thanks Leon . That's what I hope to .....but there are some other destinations on my wishlist to ....Yes I kow, I am spoiled but .....fanatic to