Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Alan_b on October 02, 2017, 10:41:13 AM

Title: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 02, 2017, 10:41:13 AM
Not a wonderful photograph but an illustration of how early this season is for some snowdrops.  This is early elwesii 'Hollis' showing up much earlier than usual.  I did not notice the beetle when I was taking the photograph!

[attachimg=1] 

I also have 'Remember Remember' (another early elwesii) slightly more advanced. 
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Roma on October 03, 2017, 02:06:40 PM
Galanthus reginae-olgae
I hoped it would flower for the Late Bulb Display at Aberdeen but missed it by 4 or 5 days
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: johnralphcarpenter on October 03, 2017, 04:48:15 PM
Galanthus reginae-olgae subsp. reginae-olgae and Galanthus peshmenii flowering now.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 05, 2017, 02:55:52 PM
Delighted to see G. r-o 'Ruby's Green Dream' dropped this morning in the garden. This is one of a very few of this gem growing in the U.S. and I have a fellow forum participant to thank for making it available.

I can now say in my own garden, "Let the White-Fever season begin". LOL  Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 05, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
...and can we see three buds altogether Rick.  Wow :o
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 05, 2017, 11:22:31 PM
Yes Brian, imagine my delight when I saw the three! So it seems happy and fingers crossed it stays happy! It opened up a bit more this afternoon, so I had to post this update....since you asked!  Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 06, 2017, 08:09:43 AM
I'm amazed this one has reached the USA so quickly, Rick.  Over here we face a big threat from slugs and snails to any accessible snowdrops flowering in September and October.  Is it the same with you?





Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 06, 2017, 09:13:26 AM
Yes Brian, imagine my delight when I saw the three! So it seems happy and fingers crossed it stays happy! It opened up a bit more this afternoon, so I had to post this update....since you asked!  Rick

Absolutely lovely, no doubt you will update us when all three are in flower :D
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 06, 2017, 01:23:17 PM
Of course...I will be happy to do so as you have twisted my arm! By the way, a huge HATS OFF and deep bow to Maggie and her many minions for putting in place on this Forum the facility to load in photos without the need to re-size first. It works like a charm and makes the posting of photos here so much more speedy. Thank you, Maggie.

Best, Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Maggi Young on October 06, 2017, 02:09:51 PM
All down to Fred our wonderful webmaster, Rick - nothing that happens here could happen without him!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 06, 2017, 02:43:38 PM
Excellent Maggie...I know you pursued it as a work request and prioritized it and I appreciate both you and Fred for making it happen! If participants have not yet tried the new and improved photo attachment process with no need to re-size, they should give it a go.

Thank you to both you and Fred!

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 07, 2017, 09:46:09 AM
A close-up of G. reginae-olgae 'Tilebarn Jamie'.  When a kind galanthophile friend gave me a little pot of these I was nervous because I had bought and lost this particular snowdrop cultivar twice before.  But it was third time lucky and they have increased quite rapidly for me since I got them.

[attachimg=1]

By the way, I tried to post an unmodified full-size version of this image but kept getting an error message (500) after about 10 seconds of waiting.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Maggi Young on October 07, 2017, 01:59:06 PM
[quote author=Alan_b link=topic=15772.msg382481#msg382481 date=150736596
By the way, I tried to post an unmodified full-size version of this image but kept getting an error message (500) after about 10 seconds of waiting.
[/quote]

A fairly generic error message -  perhaps the server was busy/updating.
It is still only possible to upload doc, gif, jpg, pdf, png, txt  files.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 07, 2017, 08:03:00 PM
Alan, a handsome drop and so early, still amazed at the number that seem to be starting up already, particularly in England. My G. r-o 'Ruby's Green Dream' is still going on Greenwich Mean Time so next Autumn will be the test.

Speaking of G. r-o 'Ruby's Green Dream', does anyone have anecdotal stories surrounding Ruby Baker and the naming of this relatively new G. r-o? I know many of us enjoy reading about the connection of a plant with the name associated with it.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 08, 2017, 12:49:24 AM
I'm amazed this one has reached the USA so quickly, Rick.  Over here we face a big threat from slugs and snails to any accessible snowdrops flowering in September and October.  Is it the same with you?

Alan, yes, I garden in dry sand as the soil base so I am always adding amendments which also make the slugs happy. I saw it this year with some new and early Colchicm. No slugs o this jewel...but I may be forced to get some of those blue slug sprinklers before it is over. Andy yes, very lucky to have this rarity growing in the garden this autumn. Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 08, 2017, 08:12:25 AM
Speaking of G. r-o 'Ruby's Green Dream', does anyone have anecdotal stories surrounding Ruby Baker and the naming of this relatively new G. r-o?
The original snowdrop named 'Ruby Baker' was a snowdrop that Ruby had admired on a garden visit.  The act of naming was a spontaneous act of goodwill and friendship without thought to whether the snowdrop was merely nice or a great snowdrop that should commemorate a great galanthophile.  John Grimshaw gave some more details here: http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ruby-baker-1923-2014.html (http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ruby-baker-1923-2014.html) .

Joe Sharman was of the opinion that this snowdrop was not memorable enough so when he originated a reginae-olgae with strong green markings on the outer petals, the first of its kind in this species to be commercially available, he sold it as Galanthus reginae-olgae 'Ruby Baker' (beginning in 2012, I think).  But naming rules apply to genus rather than species so Joe always knew that he was unlikely to be allowed to get away with this and thus he was obliged, after a while, to come up with a new official name.  He discussed various options with Ruby and decided that the best of these, of which she approved, was 'Ruby's Green Dream'.       
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 08, 2017, 01:01:58 PM
Thank you, Alan. That is a helpful bit of history and it is nice to know that Ruby was involved in finalizing the re-naming of it. And while I had read bits and pieces about the re-naming of this drop I had missed the part of the story involving Ruby's input on the new name. All good.

Thank you again,

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 09, 2017, 12:34:44 PM
Flowering this morning is the first non G.reginæ-olgæ in the garden G. elwesii hiemalis 'Howard Wheeler', whilst 'Rainbow Farm Early' is 'in spear' and showing white.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 10, 2017, 01:47:38 PM
If faced with a line-up of named elwesii Hiemalis Group snowdrops, could we tell them apart?  First, two pictures of 'Hollis'.  On its home turf this grows into a large plant with very long leaves by later in the season.  I received it as such but it never performs as well for me and maintains an ordinary size.  There seems to be a nice little point to the ends of the outer petals; could this be an identifying feature?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

By contrast 'Remember Remember' has larger flowers on tall floppy stems.
[attachimg=3]
I've just spotted a faint band of green markings about 1/4 of the petal length from the tip in the photograph.  I checked and they really are there; it isn't a trick of the camera.         
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 10, 2017, 03:43:09 PM
Just to show how fickle they are.  As I said in a previous post 'Rainbow Farm Early' is in spear, it is in full sun.  By the side of the house I have a variety of pots ::) in the shade of the house and fence.  In one of them is a 'Rainbow Farm Early' in full flower.  Theses are less than 20 metres apart.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: johnralphcarpenter on October 10, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
The original snowdrop named 'Ruby Baker' was a snowdrop that Ruby had admired on a garden visit.  The act of naming was a spontaneous act of goodwill and friendship without thought to whether the snowdrop was merely nice or a great snowdrop that should commemorate a great galanthophile.  John Grimshaw gave some more details here: http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ruby-baker-1923-2014.html (http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ruby-baker-1923-2014.html) .

Joe Sharman was of the opinion that this snowdrop was not memorable enough so when he originated a reginae-olgae with strong green markings on the outer petals, the first of its kind in this species to be commercially available, he sold it as Galanthus reginae-olgae 'Ruby Baker' (beginning in 2012, I think).  But naming rules apply to genus rather than species so Joe always knew that he was unlikely to be allowed to get away with this and thus he was obliged, after a while, to come up with a new official name.  He discussed various options with Ruby and decided that the best of these, of which she approved, was 'Ruby's Green Dream'.       

He was still selling it as 'Ruby Baker' at the Great Dixter Plant Fair last weekend.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Maggi Young on October 10, 2017, 05:38:56 PM
He was still selling it as 'Ruby Baker' at the Great Dixter Plant Fair last weekend.

 ;D ;D ;D :-X
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 10, 2017, 06:06:30 PM
Just to show how fickle they are.  As I said in a previous post 'Rainbow Farm Early' is in spear, it is in full sun.  By the side of the house I have a variety of pots ::) in the shade of the house and fence.  In one of them is a 'Rainbow Farm Early' in full flower.  Theses are less than 20 metres apart.

I suspect that the trigger for many of the early elwesiis is a reduction in the soil temperature coupled with a sufficient quantity of moisture in the soil.  August and September were relatively cool and wet in East Anglia and I imagine that is what has brought things on early.  For these particular snowdrops I often find that plants in pots flower sooner than the same cultivar in the ground, often by several weeks.  This could be because the soil in the pot cools more rapidly than ground temperatures as the season progresses.   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 10, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
He was still selling it as 'Ruby Baker' at the Great Dixter Plant Fair last weekend.

Plants can have official names and trade names that are different.  Joe Sharman uses 'Ruby Baker' as a trade name but for publications the name is 'Ruby's Green Dream'.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 12, 2017, 06:29:41 PM
This unnamed G. elwesii flowers a month earlier than usual. I had to free it from the surrounding perennials when I noticed that by chance.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: David Nicholson on October 12, 2017, 08:47:27 PM
Plants can have official names and trade names that are different.  Joe Sharman uses 'Ruby Baker' as a trade name but for publications the name is 'Ruby's Green Dream'.

How can that be? Surely it's a recipe for both mis-selling and confusion amongst less qualified buyers?
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 12, 2017, 09:13:48 PM
How can that be? Surely it's a recipe for both mis-selling and confusion amongst less qualified buyers?

I'm not sure how readily available the true 'Ruby Baker' is and in any case the most obvious consequence of confusion is that somebody buys one or other of the two cultivars but not both - because they think they already have it.  So only the sellers are harmed in that case, not the buyers.  Named snowdrops are rarely if ever sold by large prestigious nurseries like Thompson and Morgan.  Until that happens there is nobody likely to take action under circumstances like these.  The case is different when it comes to any reviewed publication where the correct name would have to be used. 
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 15, 2017, 01:57:48 AM
As promised...here is an update on my G. r-o 'Ruby Baker' fully open with daughter bulbs pretty well opened now, too. Quite excited about its performance so far and happy to have it gracing my garden.

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 15, 2017, 08:56:06 AM
Thanks Rick, and a lovely photograph too ;)
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 15, 2017, 09:10:10 AM
Dangerous days for snowdrops here; many of the early snowdrops are appearing unusually early whilst the weather is unusually warm so slugs and snails are highly active.  This is what happens if you are not vigilant.

[attachimg=1]

On a more positive note, this is an elwesii seedling that arose in my garden.  It has an x-shaped mark on the inner petals that is quite unusual to find in an early elwesii.  There is one called 'Advent' and another called 'Frinton Advent' that are similar but I don't know of any others.

[attachimg=2]

   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 15, 2017, 03:48:51 PM

Sorry for Your loss, Alan!

I wonder whether these forms may be regarded as var. elwesii or monostictus?

Not as lovely and special as Rick´s ´Ruby Baker´, but at least G. reginae-olga ´Tilebarn Jamie´ grows well in my garden, and potted, too.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 15, 2017, 04:30:47 PM
Alan, your elwesii is quite an eye catcher. Love the mark and so rare to see such an early elwesii v.elwesii.

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 15, 2017, 04:33:52 PM

Not as lovely and special as Rick´s ´Ruby Baker´, but at least G. reginae-olgae Tilebarn Jamie´ grows well in my garden, and potted, too.
Mariette...your G. r-o 'Tilebarn Jamie' are every bit as lovely. A wonderful setting and terrific image as well. Nicely grown. Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: johnralphcarpenter on October 15, 2017, 07:29:35 PM
The diminutive Galanthus peshmenii Kastellorizo Form (Rix 4010).

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 17, 2017, 12:05:23 PM
At the front of one bed, about 18" (45cm) apart I grow 'Rainbow Farm Early' and 'Barnes', when I got it from Mike Broadhurst he said that he thought that RFE was a seedling of 'Barnes' but earlier.  These were taken today showing that indeed, here that is true. 
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Maggi Young on October 17, 2017, 03:12:13 PM
The 'drops are pretty with cyclamen as company, aren't they?
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 17, 2017, 04:58:18 PM
The 'drops are pretty with cyclamen as company, aren't they?

Yes it's a treat to see them like that (shame about the rubbish all around!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: hadacekf on October 18, 2017, 06:02:35 PM
The snowdrops enjoyed the sun.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 18, 2017, 10:33:24 PM
Lovely picture Franz, we all enjoy a bit of sun!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: pehe on October 20, 2017, 11:37:06 AM
No sign of Barnes or Hollis yet, but Peter Gatehouse has shown its nose among Crocus ochroleucus.
My Galanthus peshmenii Kastelloriozo has finished, but another peshmenii form is still flowering.
Cilicus will flower in a week or so. In the open garden some of the early Reginae Olgae is over, while others are just starting.

Poul
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 20, 2017, 05:50:18 PM
I wonder whether these forms may be regarded as var. elwesii or monostictus?

These terms are not always helpful.  My understanding is that in var. monostictus the (single) mark on the inner petals is should be confined to the half of the petal nearest the tip.  If it extends further it's not var. monostictus so I guess it must be var. elwesii, even though we generally think of var. elwesii as having two distinct marks   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: David Lowndes on October 21, 2017, 04:35:58 PM
Down here in Hampshire I have ‘Peter Gatehouse’, ‘Cambridge ‘, ‘Hogget’s Narrow’ all flowering in the garden. No sign of ‘Barnes’, ‘Hollis’ or ‘Kinn Macintosh’though. Various r.o’s flowering in pots. Interested in the  ‘lower temperature in pots stimulus theory’.  It’s been pretty warm since March down here!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 22, 2017, 04:14:22 PM
These terms are not always helpful.  My understanding is that in var. monostictus the (single) mark on the inner petals is should be confined to the half of the petal nearest the tip.  If it extends further it's not var. monostictus so I guess it must be var. elwesii, even though we generally think of var. elwesii as having two distinct marks
Thank You for Your answer, Alan! Most of the autumn-flowering G. elwesii I grow are var. monostictus, like this one.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 22, 2017, 04:24:39 PM
Others show a mark almost extended to the base of the inners, like this one. Someone suggested, that this should be called var. monostictus, too, as it´s still one single mark, simply larger. I wonder whether this is the scientific or just a personal view.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 22, 2017, 11:49:05 PM
Thank You for Your answer, Alan! Most of the autumn-flowering G. elwesii I grow are var. monostictus, like this one.

Almost all autumn-flowering G. elwesii are var. monostictus.  The best-known exception is 'Peter Gatehouse' - which is a lovely snowdrop that I would recommend to anybody.

Others show a mark almost extended to the base of the inners, like this one. Someone suggested, that this should be called var. monostictus, too, as it´s still one single mark, simply larger. I wonder whether this is the scientific or just a personal view.

Well it is logical because it is indeed a single mark but I think it is neither helpful nor scientific.  I am pretty certain that if you look at a wild or naturalised population of G. elwesii var. elwesii you will find some snowdrops with two distinct marks and some where the two marks merge together.  If that is true then there is little point in using different descriptive terms for the two types.  Var. monostictus (classified as I suggest) is rare overall but very common amongst the early flowering elwesiis.  And if you buy imported elwesii bulbs then about 1 in 1000 will be early-flowering.  I am certain there is a mystery here that remains to be unravelled.       
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 23, 2017, 01:35:08 PM
For years I have bemoaned the fact that 'Remember Remember' does not flower for me by Fireworks night (Nov 5th), so I thought that I ought to do something about it.  I moved it to a sunnier position last year, and the combination of that and the summer this year means that the bud has dropped already.  I have decided that, knowing my luck, it will be over by the 5th!  ;)
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 23, 2017, 05:03:33 PM
Almost all autumn-flowering G. elwesii are var. monostictus.  The best-known exception is 'Peter Gatehouse' - which is a lovely snowdrop that I would recommend to anybody.

Well it is logical because it is indeed a single mark but I think it is neither helpful nor scientific.  I am pretty certain that if you look at a wild or naturalised population of G. elwesii var. elwesii you will find some snowdrops with two distinct marks and some where the two marks merge together.  If that is true then there is little point in using different descriptive terms for the two types.  Var. monostictus (classified as I suggest) is rare overall but very common amongst the early flowering elwesiis.  And if you buy imported elwesii bulbs then about 1 in 1000 will be early-flowering.  I am certain there is a mystery here that remains to be unravelled.       

LOL, Alan, I wonder if the distinction being discussed and currently described has been a reasoned one for a splitter, which many of us who appreciate the nuances of color in Snowdrops may lean toward. Your point about populations of e. var. elwesii hosting both merged marks and two distinct marks gets at this issue. Also, it points to the seemingly inconsistent monostictus category of a single mark that is early blooming and is only monostictus in cases in which half or less of the surface at the apex of the inner is green.

Curious if you are suggesting that an early bloomer with a larger than half green mark should also be considered monostictus? My guess is that a peek at the genetic material under an electron scope may be the only concise way to determine the question of distinct genetic differences. This may be the only path to solving this mystery. Fun to noodle this around....I am sure there are logic points that I have missed!

Mariette, you raise an excellent point as this has been a bit muddy for many of us for some time, though in the big scheme of things, in my opinion, not a critical path issue.

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 23, 2017, 09:44:53 PM
For years I have bemoaned the fact that 'Remember Remember' does not flower for me by Fireworks night (Nov 5th), so I thought that I ought to do something about it.  I moved it to a sunnier position last year, and the combination of that and the summer this year means that the bud has dropped already.  I have decided that, knowing my luck, it will be over by the 5th!  ;)

Fingers crossed, that You´ll enjoy the flowers in Bonfire Night!  ;)

All my autumn-flowering G. elwesii are planted in the sunniest and driest spots in my garden, which may be quite a muddy place in wet summers. ´Barnes´I grow in 3 different places, in the shadier ones it tends to flower later.

Surprisingly, G. reginae-olgae doesn´t need sun in my garden to flower early and well. It seems to be content with a spot that remains reasonably dry during summer.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 23, 2017, 09:57:14 PM
We seem know very little about how these early elwesii bulbs that we grow in our gardens behave in their native habitat.  If you took a Hiemalis Group snowdrop back to Turkey, would it still be autumn-flowering?  If so then it isn't going to interbreed with spring-flowering types, even if they grow in close proximity.  In which case there are likely to be significant genetic differences (which only manifest visibly in that the autumn-flowering types tend to be var. monostictus and the spring-flowering types tend to be var elwesii).  There is great scope for some academic studies but nobody making them, as far as I know.     

     
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 23, 2017, 10:27:39 PM
Fingers crossed, that You´ll enjoy the flowers in Bonfire Night!  ;)

My fingers are crossed too ;D
Quote
Surprisingly, G. reginae-olgae doesn´t need sun in my garden to flower early and well. It seems to be content with a spot that remains reasonably dry during summer.

Joe Sharman told us that when he is looking for them in the wild he finds them quite high up and generally under plane trees, so that would not be too sunny.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Gail on October 23, 2017, 10:29:18 PM
For years I have bemoaned the fact that 'Remember Remember' does not flower for me by Fireworks night (Nov 5th), so I thought that I ought to do something about it.  I moved it to a sunnier position last year, and the combination of that and the summer this year means that the bud has dropped already.  I have decided that, knowing my luck, it will be over by the 5th!  ;)
First year with 'Remember Remember' for me and it is flowering now - unfortunately the stem wants to be horizontal rather than vertical which I think is not a good look in a snowdrop...
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 23, 2017, 10:37:56 PM
I was warned-off buying 'Remember Remember' because the flower stems tend to flop but I am glad I did not heed the warnings because it is pleasingly early and has large handsome flowers.  Your best bet might be to accumulate a large clump so the flower stems can form a self-support group.   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Gail on October 23, 2017, 10:40:52 PM
Thanks Alan, I do hope that it accumulates obligingly!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 23, 2017, 10:50:11 PM
[attachimg=1]
An early form of Galanthus transcaucasicus that I bought from Wol and Sue Staines earlier this year.  The leaves are the same colour as the scape, a dark green and quite matt.



Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 24, 2017, 09:56:30 AM
First year with 'Remember Remember' for me and it is flowering now - unfortunately the stem wants to be horizontal rather than vertical which I think is not a good look in a snowdrop...

I believe I may have been the person that warned Alan off 'Remember, Remember' :-X  I was told by a well known grower that if there were early frosts it would lie down and have difficulty getting up so the flower would be spoilt, therefore plant it where it would have some frost protection to prevent that.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 25, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
[attachimg=1]

This is a snowdrop that I acquired in a trade with fellow forumist Tim Ingram.  He grows it as "Galanthus caucasicus early form ex Kath Dryden" which these days would be Galanthus elwesii Hiemalis Group ex Kath Dryden, I suppose.  It must have been around for a while and I would have though it might have been well circulated but for some reason it has never acquired a name, nor have I ever seen it offered for sale.  The mark on the inner petals is quite distinctive amongst Hiemalis Group snowdrops because it is almost split at the centre.   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 25, 2017, 09:32:57 PM
One of my lucky finds in G. elwesii mixtures was this one, where the mark is completely split. Two years ago it flowered in mid November, this year it will be within the next days.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 26, 2017, 12:44:54 AM
One of my lucky finds in G. elwesii mixtures was this one, where the mark is completely split. Two years ago it flowered in mid November, this year it will be within the next days.

Mariette, a lovely image. Nice find and I hope it shows the split mark again this year. Keep us posted.

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 26, 2017, 07:21:30 AM
That's a lovely find, Mariette.  I am interested in the statistics of elwesii "mixtures" and what fraction turn out to be autumn-flowering.  Can you estimate this for the ones you bought?   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 26, 2017, 07:36:32 AM
Mariette, a lovely image. Nice find and I hope it shows the split mark again this year. Keep us posted.

Rick

Thank You for Your kind comment, Rick! The split mark was the same last year.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 26, 2017, 07:44:11 AM
That's a lovely find, Mariette.  I am interested in the statistics of elwesii "mixtures" and what fraction turn out to be autumn-flowering.  Can you estimate this for the ones you bought?

My experience is limited : in 2011 and 2012 I bought altogether 300 Galanthus elwesii from a well-known Dutch supplier: 3 - 4 % of these were autumn-flowering G. e. var. monostictus. When I bought 200 more in the following years, they turned out to be all rather similar G. e. var. elwesii, so I suppose, he relies on other sources now.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 26, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
That's very interesting, Mariette.  I presume these bulbs are imported from Turkey; CITES permits a certain quantity of imports but limits the numbers.  I am guessing they come from Turkey as it has a long tradition of exporting elwesii snowdrops but that could be wrong as I read that elwesii has quite a widespread distribution.  As I wrote previously, it would be interesting to know whereabouts these autumn-flowering elwesiis come from, but possibly even the bulb company doing the importing does not know that.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 26, 2017, 11:43:08 AM
My experience is limited : in 2011 and 2012 I bought altogether 300 Galanthus elwesii from a well-known Dutch supplier: 3 - 4 % of these were autumn-flowering G. e. var. monostictus. When I bought 200 more in the following years, they turned out to be all rather similar G. e. var. elwesii, so I suppose, he relies on other sources now.
Mariette, I like what you have done in planting out larger numbers of dormant elwesii and finding treasures in the lot. I planted out a sweep of 1,000 dormant elwesii last year and noted a few which were interesting. A couple were earlier than the rest, but I have not seen them nose up yet. There were three that had yellow tones, which would be fun to see again this year, but I suspect the yellow may have been environmental somehow, I should know more in February or March. A photo of one of them is below from March 8, 2017.

I have planted out smaller groups in the past and have always had an interesting one or two appear, and as with your experience, most are elwesii var. elwesii.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Rick Goodenough on October 26, 2017, 11:58:20 AM
Alan,

My experience runs along the same lines as Mariette with some similar low 2-4 percent of early blooming, monostictus or other unusual traits.

Rick
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 26, 2017, 01:23:09 PM
That's very interesting, Mariette.  I presume these bulbs are imported from Turkey; CITES permits a certain quantity of imports but limits the numbers.  I am guessing they come from Turkey as it has a long tradition of exporting elwesii snowdrops but that could be wrong as I read that elwesii has quite a widespread distribution.  As I wrote previously, it would be interesting to know whereabouts these autumn-flowering elwesiis come from, but possibly even the bulb company doing the importing does not know that.

The lots from 2011 and 2012 certainly came from Turkey, as they proved to be a very mixed bunch. For wholesale, different provenances are mixed and exported, so snowdrops from different parts of Turkey are offered by dealers   here. Some of mine rather looked like G. gracilis, one or two even had green leaves.

As the later orders proved to look so uniform, I suppose they were material raised in the Netherlands.

The autumn-flowering forms of G. e. var. monostictus may be expected to come from the milder parts of the country. Whether there is any genetic difference between G. e. var. elwesii and monostictus, I don´t know. A friend, who was fortunate enough to see the latter growing wild, said that they prefer the less dry locations.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 26, 2017, 01:30:16 PM
Mariette, I like what you have done in planting out larger numbers of dormant elwesii and finding treasures in the lot.

Well, many people won´t like that because of conservation aspects.  ;) Indeed, the sale of G. e. bulbs were for some time forbidden in parts of Germany, in others not. As the regulations have become rather strict and G. e. is even grown in fields for export now, one may be less worried to do any harm.

Your pale find looks very nice, those dainty marks in the manner of G. gracilis are definitely my favourites!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 26, 2017, 01:40:38 PM
I have been reading what Tom Mitchell has to say on his web site http://www.revolution-snowdrops.co.uk/tag/galanthus-elwesii-var-monostictus/ (http://www.revolution-snowdrops.co.uk/tag/galanthus-elwesii-var-monostictus/) .  He is a very good source of information because he has been visiting many wild snowdrops in-situ over the last few years.  He refers to a late autumn flowering population of Glanthus elwesii var. monostictus that has been found in the south of Turkey.  Perhaps a small proportion of bulbs from this area get mixed-in with the general imports?   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 27, 2017, 01:32:05 PM
Thank You for this excellent link, Alan! Brilliant pics and much to learn about species!

Obviously, Tom found the autumn-flowering G. elwesii var. monostictus in the same mild region like my friend; G. peshmenii, another autumn-flowering species, is also growing there.

It´s a pity, that the beautiful largeflowered G. gracilis Tom discovered are represented so little in cultivation here. The smallish though nice clones generally offered give a wrong impression of that species, I fear.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: David King on October 29, 2017, 12:26:45 PM
Had a wander round the garden with my camera to take a few photos of snowdrops and chrysanthemums on a rather nice day.

1.  G. Hogget's Round
2.  G. elwesii hiemalis ex Beth Chatto
3.  G. Hogget's Narrow
4.  G. Remember, Remember  (normally out well after Nov 5 but this well before)
5.  G. Howard Wheeler
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: David King on October 29, 2017, 12:35:28 PM
A few more.

1.  G Rainbow Farm Early
2.  G Barnes
3.  G. Peter Gatehouse
4   G. Peter Gatehouse
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Alan_b on October 29, 2017, 12:47:49 PM
Wow, David, a great set of photos.  I have not yet saved-up enough money to buy either of the two Hoggets from Matt Bishop, who I think is mainly responsible for distributing them.  But they are both convincingly distinctive.  I wonder how many 'Hoggets Indifferent' were passed-by in order to select those two good ones?

Edited to remove misapplied apostrophe.   
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Brian Ellis on October 29, 2017, 12:51:17 PM
I am pleased to say that the Hoggets varieties were presents from two kind friends. Terry Jones was known for his Nerine hybridization and had a garden called Hoggets in Zeal Monachorum, after his death three snowdrops were noticed in the garden these were grown on at The Garden House and presumably became G.'Hoggets Narrow', G.'Hoggets Round' I assume the third snowdrop was that named after him -  G. ×valentinei  ‘Terry Jones’.
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Maggi Young on October 29, 2017, 05:52:37 PM
Lots to see in Norfolk at the minute- very nice!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Blonde Ingrid on October 30, 2017, 07:36:51 PM
Some highlights from my early Autumn drops. So far an excellent and early year. A great many others through and clumps increasing in size nicely. Also delighted to see my new green tipped drop through, in my view the best I have seen for a considerable time.

Galanthus Peshmenii, doing well and multiple clumps now present.
Galanthus r-o Eleni, another Melvyn special doing well.
Galanthus r-o Tilebarn Jamie, a typical acquisition from Anne Wright, bulking like crazy!
Another G. Autumn Beauty version to add to the confusion. Mine has rather nice green wash to the inner marking.
G. Santa Claus, reliably before November for me here in Sub Saharan East Anglia. This is a satellite clump doing well.


The season is now well underway!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Blonde Ingrid on October 30, 2017, 07:41:02 PM
G. Else Grollenberg kept in a sunny spot this year and the green markings on the outers present, unlike last year.
G. Hollis
Another Autumn newbie, clumping well and looking stunning!

The season is now well underway!
Title: Re: Galanthus in October 2017
Post by: Mariette on October 30, 2017, 09:10:27 PM
Your newbie looks wonderful! Please, tell more about it!
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