Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: ArnoldT on November 01, 2012, 02:18:00 PM
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A storm survivor.
Crocus cartwrightianus albus
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Good to see Sandy didn't damage that beauty. Good to see you survived too.
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In my own garden not much to show, but last week I saw some nice Crocus:
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some close-ups:
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and some habitat shots:
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Thomas,
fascinating sights and close ups I was waiting for, guess images taken somewhere in Liguria? ;D
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Great shots Thomas and really nice to see !
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Thanks, Armin and Kris.
And 12 points go to: Germany ;D Yes, we've been on holiday in the Eastern part of Liguria.
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Hello Thomas really good to see such nice plants.
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I have been playing with different backgrounds to Crocus images today, this morning it was overcast but when I took
Crocus asumaniae indoors it didnt take them long to open, first a black background, then white then as soon as the sun came out a completely different image colour still using a white background. I think on balance I prefer image 2.
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some close-ups:
Fascinating to see the variation. Thanks Thomas.
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In my own garden not much to show, but last week I saw some nice Crocus:
Hello Thomas,
I hope you had a pleasant stay in Liguria. Nice to see these Crocuses (or is it Croci) in their habitat.
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I have been playing with different backgrounds to Crocus images today, this morning it was overcast but when I took
Crocus asumaniae indoors it didnt take them long to open, first a black background, then white then as soon as the sun came out a completely different image colour still using a white background. I think on balance I prefer image 2.
Fascinating Melvyn. I like image 1 altough the contrast between subject and background is maybe a bit to hard .
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Previous sunday Crocus mathewii was in ful flower in the garden .
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Stunning nice form of mathewii Kris :o :o
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Stunning nice form of mathewii Kris :o :o
Thanks Dave , I am also satisfied about his performance ;D
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Very nice crocuses Thomas and even nicer that you are back on the Forum. :)
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Thomas, a meadow with so many crocus is much better than some pots with
crocus in the greenhouse. Great pictures, thanks for showing to us.
Melvyn, the one with the black background is my favourite, very nice.
Kris, you are lucky with these fine crocus.
Uli
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Thanks Uli . Today in flower : Crocus cartwrightianus . Difficult to open because the weather today was not good .
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A few shots I took yesterday. Today is no good with all this rain and wind.
Crocus mathewii and speciosus.
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Some very fine Crocus at the first day of november! And glad you are back again Hubi! :)
Here also some crocus are in flower - most came from very generous friends as corms or seeds. Actually my favourite is this small C. cambessedesii, grown from wild collected seeds a few years ago.
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John:
Thanks,
I realized I'm in the wrong month. But that's what a mega-storm will do to you.
Edit by maggi -I've moved you across to November, Arnold - glad that was all the "rescuing" you've needed after Storm Sandy.
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Previous sunday Crocus mathewii was in ful flower in the garden .
Sorry, Kris,
I don't think that it is mathewii. May be some form of plaasii, although they are very close. In my mind mathewii allways associates with distinctly purple coloration - more or less large - in throat or white in albino. It is grey on your sample and I have several such pallasii in my collection.
Janis
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Beautiful Crocos from every one.
Well, its about time here too...first crocus to bloom this season, C. tournefortii, which is a bit late than usual.
Many more to come ...
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Melvyn, great shots, but I like no.1 with the black background most.
Yes, John, we had a pleasant holiday in Liguria - realxing, beaching, hiking and botanising for 10 days :D
I think crocuses in English, but croci in italiano. Seems like the crocuses in Benelux have survived much better outside than here, if I interpret your and Kris' great photos correct.
Lesley, I've never been away from the forum, I simply had nothing to show :-\ And life has so many other stuff than plants - but what is a life completely without plants ...... :-*
Thanks Uli - you are so right!
Hans, a very good form of cambessedesii! Any albus form flowering for you this year? Your boryi looks bluish - this would point for tournefortii or a hybrid of both.
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A wonderful pot full of tournefortii, Oron!
Some photos from my sparely flowering autumn crocuses:
08 - One of my 'backup-beds' where some single goodies survived: salzmannii, ligusticus, cambessedesii, melantherus, pulchellus, niveus
03 - Another protected bed with cambessedesii flowers
01 - Crocus kotschyanus in the open garden, planted only some weeks ago - my old stock hasn't survived last winter :-[
02 - C. kotschyanus Albus also survived in a sheltered corner.
05 - This is what I received from Holland this summer as clusii, salzmannii, pulchellus Albus, pulchellus, Zephyr......some years ago at least a few corms were correct, but meanwhile they are 100% speciosus ...... >:(
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Yes, John, we had a pleasant holiday in Liguria - realxing, beaching, hiking and botanising for 10 days :D
Huh? You actually did some beaching? I am about to become envious :P, but that should be shortminded of me, because we had a couple of days of good weather too, but when the rain storms comes I forget quickly ;D.
Seems like the crocuses in Benelux have survived much better outside than here, if I interpret your and Kris' great photos correct.
Well many of my Croci (let's put it in Italian again just for the fun of it) have survived, mostly speciosus, banaticus and mathewii 'Dream Dancer' (not flowering yet), but a good deal didn't come up (yet?). The 'Purple Heart' and mathewii shown were planted this summer by the way, so they should have survived ;D.
It is good to have you back here.
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Hans,
Your pink mathewii is absolutely gorgeous :o.
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Sorry, Kris,
I don't think that it is mathewii. May be some form of plaasii, although they are very close. In my mind mathewii allways associates with distinctly purple coloration - more or less large - in throat or white in albino. It is grey on your sample and I have several such pallasii in my collection.
Janis
Thanks for the rectification Janis . I am not happy with that ,fooled once more .... >:(
On the other hand , it is a magnificent form of pallasii .
Must say that it is much more blue in some other years. Maybe could post a picture from other years ....Just to be shure ...
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05 - This is what I received from Holland this summer as clusii, salzmannii, pulchellus Albus, pulchellus, Zephyr......some years ago at least a few corms were correct, but meanwhile they are 100% speciosus ...... >:(
No surprise here!
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I found this Lila one in-between my Crocus mathewii
did the man where I bought them made a mistake
or are there Lila Crocus mathewii
Hans posted them also
so are they correct named ??
Roland
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Looks like a mathewii 'Dream Dancer', a good colored one that is.
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I googled it
and yes it looks like that
Nice surprise
Thank John
Roland
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Lucky you Roland. I have 'Dream Dancer' too, but not so deep and nicely colored :-\. On the other hand mine is a very good increaser. Started with two bulbs two years ago in the garden, but now have thirteen of them about to flower.
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Mine has just one offset in the moment
I got it very late in-between some flowering mathewii dry bulbs last year
I will carefully separate it from the other ones
Roland
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Roland,
Was your 'Dream Dancer' UK sourced?
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No idea
I bought it as leftover from Dix Export
I can ask if you want
Roland
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Don't bother Roland. I was just curious. Thanks.
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Previous sunday Crocus mathewii was in ful flower in the garden .
Kris, i think your Crocus mathewii is a hadriaticus-Hybrid.
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Kris, i think your Crocus mathewii is a hadriaticus-Hybrid.
Hello Dirk , thanks for your reply . And not pallasii as Janis thinks ?
I can post some other pics from previous years and also pictures of the corms .
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Hello Dirk , thanks for your reply . And not pallasii as Janis thinks ?
I can post some other pics from previous years and also pictures of the corms .
Kris, i see a bit yellow inside and also outside from the flower.
Crocus mathewii and pallasii have never yellow. Also the leaves looks like more
in direction hadriaticus.
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Furthermore the anthers seem to be whitish - I have seen this anther-colour in hadriaticus hybrids in my garden.
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I found this Lila one in-between my Crocus mathewii
did the man where I bought them made a mistake
or are there Lila Crocus mathewii
Hans posted them also
so are they correct named ??
Roland
No, mathewii can be with white and with lighter or darker backrounfd. It is perfect. I'm not in Latvia now, so I can't show you variation, but I like those lilac forms.
Janis
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I had a look at the records
I got these in December as leftover
with dried-in bulbs
they came originally from Germany
sold to Dix export
Roland
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Thanks Thomas and Dirk for your explanation !
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some late flowering autumn crocuses from me
goulymyi, with its fabulous honey scent, pulchellus, banaticus snowdrift, medius (ligusticus), tournefortii and speciosus lithuanian autumn.
because of very cold and rainy weather, I have had to bring most of these pots indoors for the flowers to open, or place them outside again during very sunny days, but it is still cold (about 5+c), so some, like the crocus medius, really have trouble opening fully, even indoors...
Pontus
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05 - This is what I received from Holland this summer as clusii, salzmannii, pulchellus Albus, pulchellus, Zephyr......some years ago at least a few corms were correct, but meanwhile they are 100% speciosus ...... >:(
Thomas,
you should have known it better, you persistent offender! ;D
Please forgive me my cynical comment. :-*
It is an annoying matter - simply fraud. >:(
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some late flowering autumn crocuses from me
Pontus
Hi Pontus,
your C. pulchellus is some sort of C. speciosus, it seems. Mixed up?
Typical C. pulchellus has white anthers and yellow center.
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Thomas,
you should have known it better, you persistent offender! ;D
Please forgive me my cynical comment. :-*
It is an annoying matter - simply fraud. >:(
Of course I had a bad feeling, but I had hope, that the situation in Holland has changed and I will at least get a few good ones to fill the gaps in my garden.....and one bag with salzmannii was indeed true, and I'm still waiting for some flowers that I received from a dealer last week who is also present on the forum where I have hope that the plants are true.
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I hope too
otherwise the firm who searched them for me
has a lot of trouble with me
Roland
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Thanks Roland - will let you know when they are out.
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yes, i have had a feeling for a while that they are not the true pulchellus....however, this batch always starts flowering 2-3 weeks after all my speciosus forms have finished, and carries on flowering to the end of november, sometimes even early december. The flower tubes and flower is also taller than usual speciosus....any ideas on what it could be? or if it is indeed speciosus, could it just be a very late flowering clone with "tall" flowers?
Pontus
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Of course I had a bad feeling, but I had hope, that the situation in Holland has changed and I will at least get a few good ones to fill the gaps in my garden.....and one bag with salzmannii was indeed true, and I'm still waiting for some flowers that I received from a dealer last week who is also present on the forum where I have hope that the plants are true.
Thomas,
croconuts in general seem to radiate prevalent optimism ;D
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yes, i have had a feeling for a while that they are not the true pulchellus....however, this batch always starts flowering 2-3 weeks after all my speciosus forms have finished, and carries on flowering to the end of november, sometimes even early december. The flower tubes and flower is also taller than usual speciosus....any ideas on what it could be? or if it is indeed speciosus, could it just be a very late flowering clone with "tall" flowers?
Pontus
Pontus,
C. speciosus is very variable in flower size, height, colors and flowering time.
In central Europe elongated pedicels usually are a symptom of lack of sunlight.
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some late flowering autumn crocuses from me
goulymyi, with its fabulous honey scent, pulchellus, banaticus snowdrift, medius (ligusticus), tournefortii and speciosus lithuanian autumn.
because of very cold and rainy weather, I have had to bring most of these pots indoors for the flowers to open, or place them outside again during very sunny days, but it is still cold (about 5+c), so some, like the crocus medius, really have trouble opening fully, even indoors...
Pontus
Pontus your speciosus lithuanian is very nice is it a hybrid?
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David,
Crocus speciosus 'Lithuanian Autumn' is a speciosus selection of Leonid Bondarenko www.litbulbgarden.com (http://www.litbulbgarden.com).
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yes, it is indeed the selection by Leonid Bondarenko. The nice thing about it is also the white back side of the petals, i will upload a new image of it soon showing this excellent feature. However, its not a very strong growing selection and multiplies very slowly...
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Thanks Thomas and John for your comments!
Your boryi looks bluish - this would point for tournefortii or a hybrid of both.
Certainly you are right! ;D Flower do not close at night - got them as seed collected in Crete a few years ago.
Roland, congratulation for this beautiful C. mathewii!
Pontus, better you do not grow your C. medius near your other Crocus - they seem to be virused :-\
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Crocus cartwrightianus again ...
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some late flowering autumn crocuses from me
goulymyi, with its fabulous honey scent, pulchellus, banaticus snowdrift, medius (ligusticus), tournefortii and speciosus lithuanian autumn.
because of very cold and rainy weather, I have had to bring most of these pots indoors for the flowers to open, or place them outside again during very sunny days, but it is still cold (about 5+c), so some, like the crocus medius, really have trouble opening fully, even indoors...
Pontus
Dear Pontus, your Crocus ligusticus (earlier medius) 100% is virusinfected. It certainly is Dutch stock? They almost all are infected. Crocus pulchellus - it is speciosus.
Janis
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Dear Pontus, your Crocus ligusticus (earlier medius) 100% is virusinfected. It certainly is Dutch stock? They almost all are infected.
Janis
Dutch (imported) C. ligusticus were virus infected 30 years ago when I first started growing bulbs. I didn't realise it at the time and attributed the awful appearance of the flowers to my poor cultivation. If KAVB are to have any credibility they should act.
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A couple of crocus in the wild today at Monemvasia in the Pelpoponnese
Crocus goulimyi on Monemvasia
Crocus boryi near Monemvasia
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Very nice Tony! A few from under glass in cold wet UK!
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Very nice Tony! A few from under glass in cold wet UK!
Crocus boryi - are you sure Melvyn?
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Crocus boryi - are you sure Melvyn?
Yes, collected by me and Peter Moore north of Sparta many years ago and species identification confirmed by Brian Matthew.
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Some pics of Crocus serotinus ssp salzmanii to show variation, from various locations in the Ronda area of Andalucia, taken a couple of weeks ago, but only just had chance to sort these out.
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Yes, collected by me and Peter Moore north of Sparta many years ago and species identification confirmed by Brian Matthew.
Was this an unusual individual, or was the population uniform Melvyn? It is a lovely form, :)
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Yes, collected by me and Peter Moore north of Sparta many years ago and species identification confirmed by Brian Matthew.
Thanks Melvyn. Superficially somewhat resembles C. laevigatus which is why I asked.
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Thanks Melvyn. Superficially somewhat resembles C. laevigatus which is why I asked.
Yes Gerry in the Crocus monograph Brian says 'In the Peloponnese the species indulge in mimicry with regard to flower colouring'...Was this an unusual individual, or was the population uniform Melvyn? It is a lovely form, :)
Ron, I think the phrase is 'locally abundant' I will have a look next week to see if I can find them again.
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Ron, I think the phrase is 'locally abundant' I will have a look next week to see if I can find them again.
Now I'm getting envious, ;D. Looking forward to hearing your findings if possible, 8) 8)
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Yes Gerry in the Crocus monograph Brian says 'In the Peloponnese the species indulge in mimicry with regard to flower colouring'...
Yes, so he does. I presume you (or Brian) made the identification on the basis of the corm tunics?
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Crocus lingusticus Millesimo from Dirk a nice dark form. Managed to locate a real gilanicus raised from seed in 2008
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I am envious when I see all those beautiful crocus!
The weather has been very bad here, windy with lots of rain and temperatures around 50C.
C. longiflorus, C. serotinus salzmani erectophyllus among others didn't even open before they withered.
A few have survived:
Crocus goulimyi
Crocus speciosus which reminds me of Vanguard
And one labeled Crocus cartwrightianus Albus?
Poul
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Super crocus from all!
Poul,
your C. goulimyi is special - never realized one with a real white style :o
P.S: I may have a reason to be envious - only 4 autum croci (2x C. speciosus + 2x C. speciosus x pulchellus 'Zephyr') flowered with me after black frost desaster from spring... :'( But I still hope for more survivors when leaves appear. :-\
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Another hadriaticus x 'Purple Heart' showing off. This one is a bit more white and the tube and throat are darker than my previous one.
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John is purple heart a clonal name and if so how can these differ?
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I have no idea David. I thought it was clonal, but the two I have flowering right now are slightly different, which exclude being clones. A third one is yet to flower, so I will have to see if that one is also a bit different too. Maybe it is a strain.
Maybe Janis can tell what the case is with x 'Purple Heart'?
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I have no idea David. I thought it was clonal, but the two I have flowering right now are slightly different, which exclude being clones. A third one is yet to flower, so I will have to see if that one is also a bit different too. Maybe it is a strain.
Maybe Janis can tell what the case is with x 'Purple Heart'?
'Purple Heart' is clone selected by Antoine Hoog, but in his stock there is some mix included of sibling with lighter throat. I tried to clean my stock and I suppose that I succeed, but if you are buying it from company which only are writing about growing of bulbs by themselves but really only resells them immediately - you can receive this mix of two clones. True is this with darker throat.
Janis
P.S. Just retuurned from another croco-trip, so hope in few days to start some crocus story.
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Thanks Janis for clearing that up. I like both of them, but the true one is exceptionally beautiful in my eyes.
I look forward reading your story.
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C. speciosus x pulchellus 'Zephyr'
You are the first who doesn't claim 'Zephyr' to be Crocus pulchellus.
I wonder whether the origin of 'Zephyr' is known.
Its habitus, flowering season and hardiness are identical to
Crocus speciosus, it differs solely in its coloration.
I considered it to be an apochromous mutant of Crocus speciosus,
because of its beige seeds, but recently Janis Rukšans described a new
variety of Crocus speciosus which is not apochromous and has
beige seeds and white anthers if I understood the description correctly.
'Zephyr' might be an apochromous mutant of var. ibrahimii
which might be a separate species because of the beige seeds.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9528.msg256142#msg256142 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9528.msg256142#msg256142)
The unusually strong winter killed my Crocus pulchellus, and
Crocus 'Oxonian' too, which is probably a sterile hybrid
and not Crocus speciosus, I cultivated it for forty years,
but 'Zephyr' remained absolutely untouched.
'Zephyr' breeds truly.
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Crocus speciosus 'Lithuanian Autumn''s main feature: milk white outer petals.
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oh no :(.. thats bad news about my ligusticus...
maybe that is why the flowers wont open fully even in sunny weather?
Yes, this stock was originally dutch, although bought from the UK.
What should I do with them? throw them all away or try and grow them in their pots separetely from everything else?
can the virus they are infected with easilly spread to other crocus sp?
good to know also about my feeling that the supposed pulchellus was misidentified (also originally dutch stock although bought from a swiss nursery..)..i will now re label them as late flowering speciosus..
Pontus
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Crocus goulimyi at Areopoli and
Crocus niveus at Pyrgos
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Super pictures Tony, 8) 8)
Are you still there?
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oh no :(.. thats bad news about my ligusticus.........
What should I do with them? throw them all away or try and grow them in their pots separetely from everything else?
I advise you to throw them away. Even if they don't infect other plants, the flowers will never look good. Virus-free stock is available in the UK & North America though not easy to find; the only UK nursery I know which had a stock closed some years ago.
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"oh no .. thats bad news about my ligusticus.........
What should I do with them? throw them all away or try and grow them in their pots separetely from everything else? "
Personally, because they are not so easy to get hold of, I'd be tempted to isolate them immediately, and try to self pollinate them with the hope of getting seed. A long shot maybe, and not guaranteed to rid you of the virus, but surely worth a try, with no risk ;D
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You are the first who doesn't claim 'Zephyr' to be Crocus pulchellus.
I wonder whether the origin of 'Zephyr' is known.
Josef,
the KAVB lists C. pulchellus 'Zephyr' (registered by Tubergen). So far as I know it was introduced by Tom Hoog. It was said to be a fertile hybrid likely a cross with C. speciosus. Due of the white anthers and yellow center it was considered to be more closer to C. pulchellus then C. speciosus.
'Zephyr' comes true from seed and crosses easily with C. speciosus that is my experience too.
C. speciosus types with white/withish anthers are often the result.
With the latest knowledge and findings you might have opened the door to bring more light in the dark of the origin of 'Zephyr'.
Would like to hear the specialists opinions.
Other then yours, it seems I lost my 'Zephyr' by the black frost from February. No flowers this season with me.
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Super pictures Tony, 8) 8)
Are you still there?
Ron
home on Sunday,it is quite good but really too hot and dry so the flowers have been a bit sparse. 27c today
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"oh no .. thats bad news about my ligusticus.........
What should I do with them? throw them all away or try and grow them in their pots separetely from everything else? "
Personally, because they are not so easy to get hold of, I'd be tempted to isolate them immediately, and try to self pollinate them with the hope of getting seed. A long shot maybe, and not guaranteed to rid you of the virus, but surely worth a try, with no risk ;D
The commercially available form of C. ligusticus is sterile.
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I hope you continue to enjoy Tony, 8) 8)
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The commercially available form of C. ligusticus is sterile.
Why?
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Look at the anthers - depauperate
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Are they all the same??
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Crocus goulimyi at Areopoli and
Crocus niveus at Pyrgos
Lovely Niveus Tony
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You are the first who doesn't claim 'Zephyr' to be Crocus pulchellus.
I wonder whether the origin of 'Zephyr' is known.
Its habitus, flowering season and hardiness are identical to
Crocus speciosus, it differs solely in its coloration.
I considered it to be an apochromous mutant of Crocus speciosus,
because of its beige seeds, but recently Janis Rukšans described a new
variety of Crocus speciosus which is not apochromous and has
beige seeds and white anthers if I understood the description correctly.
'Zephyr' might be an apochromous mutant of var. ibrahimii
which might be a separate species because of the beige seeds.
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9528.msg256142#msg256142 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9528.msg256142#msg256142)
The unusually strong winter killed my Crocus pulchellus, and
Crocus 'Oxonian' too, which is probably a sterile hybrid
and not Crocus speciosus, I cultivated it for forty years,
but 'Zephyr' remained absolutely untouched.
'Zephyr' breeds truly.
Zephyr is hybrid. Its seedlings clearly split in speciosus and pulchellus.
Janis
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Zephyr is hybrid. Its seedlings clearly split in speciosus and pulchellus.
Janis
Thanks.
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I advise you to throw them away. Even if they don't infect other plants, the flowers will never look good. Virus-free stock is available in the UK & North America though not easy to find; the only UK nursery I know which had a stock closed some years ago.
A virusfree form of Crocus ligusticus Millesimo is offered in Dirk Schnabels list.
He has posted a photo of his plants here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9630.msg257892#msg257892 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9630.msg257892#msg257892)
Edit by maggi to add exact link to post with photo :)
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Hello,
Crocuns niveus is always one of the last in my collection!
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Another Greek Crocus speciosus - this case from most S located population, although of different color style by other features identical with N population.
Janis
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Who can tell me where to find the list of Dirk Schnabels
Roland
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Who can tell me where to find the list of Dirk Schnabels
Roland
I don't think I have Dirk's list this year, Roland, but you could email him ( "Udo" on the Forum) to ask him.
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Hello,
Crocuns niveus is always one of the last in my collection!
Lovely Pauli mine are not flowering yet.
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I don't think I have Dirk's list this year, Roland, but you could email him ( "Udo" on the Forum) to ask him.
Thanks Maggie
I mailed him
Roland
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My last flowering crocus (self seedling) in garden.
Crocus-longiflorus
Crocus-tournefortii
Crocus-pulchellus
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Franz,
What a lovely form of pulchellus! I like the contrast of almost white colour with dark veins.
Poul
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Does someone knows if the Crocus cartwrightianus albus
in the Dutch trade is in real Crocus hadriaticus
and if this is true
does there a real white form exist from Crocus cartwrightianus
Roland
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My Crocus season beginning to move a bit. Sorry for the quality of the pics, have moved my photographing position in the greenhouse and am getting more light so need to darken my backing plate to stop it showing through.
Crocus goulimyi 'Mani White' a kind gift from Gerry in 2011.
Crocus goulimyi from seed sown August 2007.
Crocus longiflorus from seed Tony Goode kindly sent to me and sown August 2007 and, I think, flowering for the first time.
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Does someone knows if the Crocus cartwrightianus albus
in the Dutch trade is in real Crocus hadriaticus
and if this is true
does there a real white form exist from Crocus cartwrightianus
Roland
Roland - From Brian Mathew: C. cartwrightianus albus is, in fact, C. hadriaticus. Albino forms of C. cartwrightianus are said to be common but the only one I have seen has a purple eye - I posted this on the forum in earlier years & Janis posted a similar plant.
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I have this as Crocus cartwrightianus albus
If not what is it?
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I have this as Crocus cartwrightianus albus
If not what is it?
It looks as cartwrightianus (by lenghth of style branches) but I'm afraid that plant is virus infected.
Janis
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It looks as cartwrightianus (by lenghth of style branches) but I'm afraid that plant is virus infected.
Janis
before you throw it away (what most people do)
try to let it produce seeds and seed it again
Roland
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I would be interested to hear the evidence of virusing.
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It looks as cartwrightianus (by lenghth of style branches) .........
Janis
The style appears to be divided well above the throat. Following Brian Mathew, this suggests C. hadriaticus.
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David:
Me too, leaves look OK.
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The style appears to be divided well above the throat. Following Brian Mathew, this suggests C. hadriaticus.
All my hadriaticus has much shorter stigmatic branches, of course picture isn't the best for identifying and crocuses are so variable...
Janis
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I would be interested to hear the evidence of virusing.
Edge of petals is not straight but with "cut" edge + seems some discoloration on petals, too.
Janis
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some close-ups:
Very late reply as we have been away.
Fabulous selection of forms. Good to see that you are out and about recording crocus. Thanks for sharing them here.
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The style appears to be divided well above the throat. Following Brian Mathew, this suggests C. hadriaticus.
Yes, but the style branches are almost as long as the petals......
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Yes, but the style branches are almost as long as the petals......
Yes, but which characteristic do you choose - length of style branches or point of division? Brian, not very helpfully, seems indecisive here.
See a 'C. cartwrightianus albus' (= 'C. hadriaticus') here:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thompson-morgan.com/medias/sys_tandm/8806574850078.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thompson-morgan.com/flowers/flower-bulbs-and-tubers/crocus-bulbs/crocus-cartwrightianus-albus/p93108TM&usg=__pHU1viUrKGDKa7Sgu2G4Tx7LN3s=&h=1000&w=1000&sz=92&hl=en&start=19&zoom=1&tbnid=iPBHLfNthz26jM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=149&ei=t2edUL_tIsLH0QXqi4DoDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrocus%2Bhadriaticus%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thompson-morgan.com/medias/sys_tandm/8806574850078.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thompson-morgan.com/flowers/flower-bulbs-and-tubers/crocus-bulbs/crocus-cartwrightianus-albus/p93108TM&usg=__pHU1viUrKGDKa7Sgu2G4Tx7LN3s=&h=1000&w=1000&sz=92&hl=en&start=19&zoom=1&tbnid=iPBHLfNthz26jM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=149&ei=t2edUL_tIsLH0QXqi4DoDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrocus%2Bhadriaticus%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1)
This looks just like Arnold's with a high point of division of the style.
I have yet to see a completely albino form of C. cartwrightianus for comparison. Does anyone have one?
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Yes, but which characteristic do you choose - length of style branches or point of division? Brian, not very helpfully, seems indecisive here.
My point exactly - to me the whole thing is as clear as mud.... ;) :-\
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Edge of petals is not straight but with "cut" edge + seems some discoloration on petals, too.
Janis
But that could equally be normal cultivational damage and the light the picture was taken in couldn't it?
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But that could equally be normal cultivational damage and the light the picture was taken in couldn't it?
Or nibbling by some beastie. Signs of this on the leaves.
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I have grown a plant that looks just like this one, I got it back in 1990 as Crocus cartwightianus albus. At the time there was some suggestion that it was an albino form of C hadriaticus. Later BM described Crocus hadriaticus ssp parnassicus as a pure white variant. Posted below is a pic from today of a seedling of ssp parnassicus. My original 1990 plants show occasional ragged edged petals but no other sign of virus and they have been long lived.
I would add that in my collection the plants of the sativus group seem to hybridise freely. I have many pots of seed raised Cc cartwrightianus, oreocreticus, mathewii (several batches have been predominantly white, no purple throat) and especially thomasii which are 'confusingly varied!'
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Here are two hybrid seedlings from Crocus thomasii
Don't know what is going on but when I post with attachments I get "try again later" messsage only to find post appearing a short while later!! ???
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Crocus oreocreticus
Crocus biflorus melantherus
Both raised from my own saved seed. The oreocreticus looks OK but another pot of seedlings had thrown up white flowered plants with slight purple veining, likely a hybrid with cartwrightianus.
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Apropos 'C. cartwrightianus albus'. BM states that the stock originated from a collection made near Tripolis by Oliver Wyatt & is "fairly typical C. hadriaticus". It seems to be widely available in the trade.
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As I said in my note on the original posting this Crocus was a Superstorm Sandy survivor.
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At last crocus season is just coming to my place :) Crocus tournefortii
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Just checked B. Mathew's "The Greek species of Crocus, a taxonomic survey".
Extract from key:
8a - Style branches not more than 1/2 as long as segments, flowers white - 7. C. hadriaticus
8b - Style branches more than 1/2 as long as segments, flowers usually lilac ior purple (sometimes albino plants occur.....9
9a - ....... style branches 2.5 - 3.2 cm long - 5. C. sativus
9b - ........style branches (0.5)1-2.7 cm long ....10
10a - Throat pubescent..... - 4. C. cartwrightianus
10b - Throat glabrous..... - 6. C. oreocreticus
Janis
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I'm afraid that doesn't solve the problem of the identity of a plant - like Arnold's - which has both long style branches & the style divides high up. The plant pictured by T & M (which I linked above) is similar.
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Maybe this helps a very little
Crocus hadriaticus Corm tunic fine netted fibres
Crocus cartwrightianus Finely fibrous corm tunic, reticulated
Roland
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Very interesting the discussion over Crocus cartwrightianus 'Albus' hort.
Here seedlings from this form, around 50 % have pale blue flowers like cartwrightianus, other plants pure white.
I think, this is a cross between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus.
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and some pure species:
Crocus biflorus ssp.melantherus 2 forms
'' laevigatus, dark form
'' wattiorum with close and open flower
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Very interesting the discussion over Crocus cartwrightianus 'Albus' hort.
Here seedlings from this form, around 50 % have pale blue flowers like cartwrightianus, other plants pure white.
I think, this is a cross between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus.
Dirk - Very interesting. Can you exclude the possibility that the plants have hybridised with you?
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Gerry,
i harvested the seed about 15 years ago. At that time was cartwrightianus 'Albus' hort. my first winter-green Crocus.
I cannot exclude a hybrid in general, but it is not very probable.
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Some crocus straddling the months
Crocus longiflorus
Crocus medius 'Millesimo' thanks to Dirk S.
Crocus niveus 'White Form'
Crocus robertianus - from a local croconut. The flower on the left is nearly twice the size of the others which vary in size and color. I've selected out "pink" forms but they are really lavender as Janis says.
Crocus speciosus ssp speciosus each flower from a different bulb bought from a large grower as anothes subspecies or clone. When I contacted him, he said he contracts out to other growers for many crocus so doesn't get to see them in bloom! At least is a lovely species. From now on I'll be looking for clones and ssp. from the smaller growers who know their stock.
Jim
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I would be interested to hear the evidence of virusing.
I've had two batches of medius (ligusticus), first many years ago from Van Tubergen's in Holland and much more recently from my man in Tasmania. Both have apparently healthy foliage but the flowers are streaked - not heavily to my mind, with a darker shade of the same colour, which I take to be the evidence of virus infection. I do keep both away from other crocuses and have not seen a similar symptom elsewhere. If it is a virus it does not seem to affect the vigour of the corms which continue to grow and increase.
A few years back TH sent me some seed of wild collected medius but unlike all his other seeds, it didn't germinate. :(
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Lesley - David's comment related to C. cartwightianus albus hort.
Most (or all) Dutch stocks of C. ligusticus have been virused for years but are sent out regardless. Dirk's plant, 'Millesimo', (posted above by Jim F) seems virus free. It appears very similar to the commercial stock, including the poorly developed anthers.
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Gerry,
i harvested the seed about 15 years ago. At that time was cartwrightianus 'Albus' hort. my first winter-green Crocus.
I cannot exclude a hybrid in general, but it is not very probable.
Thanks Dirk.
Looking at pictures of C. cartwrightianus 'albus'hort. on the internet, there seem to be two distinct forms: one resembles C. hadriaticus, with short style branches, & the other has longer style branches which (sometimes) divide high up. I would guess that the first may be the plant collected by Oliver Wyatt to which BM refers & the second may be a hybrid with C. cartwrightianus. I would further guess that this may have arisen in cultivation since, as far as I am aware, the two species are not sympatric.
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Dirk - another question. Do you know the origin of your C. ligusticus 'Millesimo' ?
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Crocus laevigatus
Originally from Ronald Ginns via Ray Cobb, David Stephens & Alan Edwards
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Dirk - another question. Do you know the origin of your C. ligusticus 'Millesimo' ?
Gerry, my Crocus medius 'Millesimo' is from P.C. Nijssen in the year 2005.
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Thanks Dirk.
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Crocus robertianus Unidentified species
A form of unknown provenance.
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Here's two more photos of the Crocus cartwrightianus albus taken earlier today.
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Crocus cartwrightianus
Ex CEH613; my own seed sown 1.10.09.
Most of the seedlings are various shades of lilac-purple, this is the only white one.
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Gerry,
congratulation! Very lovely form 8) :o
Resembles C. cartwrightianus x hadriaticus 'Purple Heart'.
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Crocus goulimyi closed yesterday and opened today.
Crocus medius (clean)
johnw
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Crocus robertianus
A form of unknown provenance.
I don’t find this species easy to grow. It seems to do better kept all the year round in an open sand plunge.
Gerry - lovely crocus but ?robertianus, All the forms I have grown have a very pronounced yellow throat ala sieberi which it often resembles (although with longer floral tube, Here is one from this week
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Gerry - lovely crocus but ?robertianus, All the forms I have grown have a very pronounced yellow throat ala sieberi which it often resembles (although with longer floral tube, Here is one from this week
Tony - I grovel! I must confess I had not looked closely at this plant which came from Pottertons a couple of years ago. Looking at a photo of a plant grown from JJA seed (which is not flowering this year), the throat is certainly yellow. What could this be I wonder? Thanks for pointing out my error.
edit: I wonder about a form of C. speciosus? - a species I'm not familiar with.
edit 2: This is the real C. robertianus from JJA seed (flowering last year).
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Lesley - David's comment related to C. cartwightianus albus hort.
Most (or all) Dutch stocks of C. ligusticus have been virused for years but are sent out regardless. Dirk's plant, 'Millesimo', (posted above by Jim F) seems virus free. It appears very similar to the commercial stock, including the poorly developed anthers.
Oh. Sorry Gerry and David.
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Gerry - lovely crocus but ?robertianus, All the forms I have grown have a very pronounced yellow throat ala sieberi which it often resembles (although with longer floral tube, Here is one from this week
The plot thickens. I've just had a look at BM who states that the throat is "pale yellow or whitish". This is quite a small plant - much smaller than the garden centre C. speciosus which I have seen.
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Tony - I grovel! I must confess I had not looked closely at this plant which came from Pottertons a couple of years ago. Looking at a photo of a plant grown from JJA seed (which is not flowering this year), the throat is certainly yellow. What could this be I wonder? Thanks for pointing out my error.
edit: I wonder about a form of C. speciosus? - a species I'm not familiar with.
edit 2: This is the real C. robertianus from JJA seed (flowering last year).
Yes, I wondered about C. speciosus too or maybe C. serotinus although that is one of the earlier flowering plants here and only occasionally has darker veins. A fibrous tunic makes C. serotinus more easily confused with C. robertianus when dormant. C. speciosus corms should never be mistaken for C. robertianus.
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Yes, I wondered about C. speciosus too or maybe C. serotinus although that is one of the earlier flowering plants here and only occasionally has darker veins. A fibrous tunic makes C. serotinus more easily confused with C. robertianus when dormant. C. speciosus corms should never be mistaken for C. robertianus.
Crocus speciosus allways has many-branched stigma.
Crocus robertianus is very variable in color - from pure white to lighter or darker lilac, throat varie from light yellow to very deep yellow and I have (or had?) specimen strongly resembling atticus tricolor. If leaves are formed only in spring and tunic is coarsely reticulated - both most likely are robertianus.
Janis
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Here is my Crocus robertianus AH.8956 on top of Crocus speciosus xantholaimos. The pics are from 22. October. The quality is not the best but the difference between robertianus and speciosus is clearly visible.
Poul
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Crocus speciosus allways has many-branched stigma.
Crocus robertianus is very variable in color - from pure white to lighter or darker lilac, throat varie from light yellow to very deep yellow and I have (or had?) specimen strongly resembling atticus tricolor. If leaves are formed only in spring and tunic is coarsely reticulated - both most likely are robertianus.
Janis
Thanks for the comment Janis. I thought C. speciosus very unlikely because of the stigma - though I'm not really familiar with variants of that species. I guess I'll have to await the development of the leaves & eventually look at the corm tunics.
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Resembles C. cartwrightianus x hadriaticus 'Purple Heart'.
Surely you don't think it is though Armin? Mine is very similar and I have it as the species!!
Beautiful Gerry, a really healthy looking plant. Do you have any growing tips?
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Gerry,
congratulation! Very lovely form 8) :o
Resembles C. cartwrightianus x hadriaticus 'Purple Heart'.
Armin - I cannot rule out the possibility that this is a hybrid since the two species were in flower at the same time. However I think it unlikely since the seed parent (C. cartwrightianus) was hand-pollinated
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Gerry and Ron,
there are two different 'Purple Heart' cultivars. The first is Janis C. cartwrightianus 'Purple Heart' and the second is C. hadriaticus 'Purple Heart' found and selected by Antoine Hoog. The latter is likely a cross between C. cartwrightianus and C. hadriaticus.
When I saw Gerry's image I had immediately Janis 'Purple Heart' in mind and thought it was of hybrid origin, too.
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for comparison ;)
2x 'Purple Heart'
1x Gerry's sdlg
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Gerry and Ron,
there are two different 'Purple Heart' cultivars. The first is Janis C. cartwrightianus 'Purple Heart' and the second is C. hadriaticus 'Purple Heart' found and selected by Antoine Hoog. The latter is likely a cross between C. cartwrightianus and C. hadriaticus.
When I saw Gerry's image I had immediately Janis 'Purple Heart' in mind and thought it was of hybrid origin, too.
My cartwrightianus Purple Heart isn't selected by me. I baught in in UK where I saw this form at some show in UK, but I gave name to it (at moment can't remember who gave it to me - too bad weather outside for going to greenhouse for label checking). By intensity of color it is close to C. mathewii best forms. Antoines 'Purple Heart' were named later and it was decided that most likely it is hybrid between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus. It is paler by throat colour. Still there are two clones included - one darker, another paler. I still didn't succeed to clean completely my stock from paler form. Yesterday dug out two more plants. Both are nice, but I prefair darker one.
Janis
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Yesterday we had some sun between very dark and rainy days so few pictures
At first very unusually colored Crocus boryi, collected wild in Greece
Crocus cambessedesii - wilf form got from Erich Pasche
Crocus goulimyi Agia Sofia - again unusual form from Greece
The largest blooming form of Crocus pallasii pallasii seen by me comes from Labranda - very uniform there, Earlier quite abundant there but now population is completely destroyed by wild boars.
Crocus hadriaticus seedling - certainly some hybrid from open pollinated seeds in my collection
And as last today - almost white Crocus robertianus with very dark orange-yellow throat.
Janis
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Janis,
thanks for showing such unusually color forms of your exceptional crocus collection and for your comments reg. 'Purple Heart'.
Most of blue/white forms make a fabulous contrast and are very attractive for the beholder. 8)
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My cartwrightianus Purple Heart isn't selected by me. I baught in in UK where I saw this form at some show in UK, but I gave name to it (at moment can't remember who gave it to me - too bad weather outside for going to greenhouse for label checking). By intensity of color it is close to C. mathewii best forms. Antoines 'Purple Heart' were named later and it was decided that most likely it is hybrid between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus. It is paler by throat colour. Still there are two clones included - one darker, another paler. I still didn't succeed to clean completely my stock from paler form. Yesterday dug out two more plants. Both are nice, but I prefair darker one.
Janis
Some time ago (2 years?) there was a discussion on the forum of the C. cartwrightianus which Janis obtained in England & named 'Purple Heart'. I have a near identical form which I obtained years ago from Norman Stevens. I posted a photo but unfortunately I have lost the original (the photo not the plant). In this plant the central purple zone is intensely coloured & much more sharply defined than in my seedling. As far as I can determine it is pure C. cartwrightianus, not a hybrid, but rather less vigorous than other forms of that species.
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Crocus wattiorum in flower today
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Crocus robertianus Unidentified species
I now think this plant may be a poor form of C. cancellatus subsp mazziaricus. Compare this picture of the bract & bracteole with that by TonyG here:
http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/cancellatus%20mazziaricus.htm (http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/cancellatus%20mazziaricus.htm)
Are you there Tony?
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Crocus wattiorum in flower today
Very handsome Tony.
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I now think this plant may be a poor form of C. cancellatus subsp mazziaricus. Compare this picture of the bract & bracteole with that by TonyG here:
http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/cancellatus%20mazziaricus.htm (http://www.thealpinehouse.fsnet.co.uk/crocus%20pages/cancellatus%20mazziaricus.htm)
Are you there Tony?
Yes! And, yes I think you could be right. Corm tunic would be reticulated so somewhat like robertianus. I wouldn't be too unkind about it, not so much 'poor' as less well off!
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Very late season here
cartwrightianus from seed in the frame with tournefortii on the left and
A nice laevigatus in the open garden and
assumaniae from a generous friend- thanks
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My cartwrightianus Purple Heart isn't selected by me. I baught in in UK where I saw this form at some show in UK, but I gave name to it (at moment can't remember who gave it to me - too bad weather outside for going to greenhouse for label checking). By intensity of color it is close to C. mathewii best forms. Antoines 'Purple Heart' were named later and it was decided that most likely it is hybrid between hadriaticus and cartwrightianus. It is paler by throat colour. Still there are two clones included - one darker, another paler. I still didn't succeed to clean completely my stock from paler form. Yesterday dug out two more plants. Both are nice, but I prefair darker one.
Janis
Janis, I am a bit confused and hope you can help me. My following crocus 'Purple Heart' has a very dark throat and tube and resembles some best forms of mathewii. So is it the UK cartwrightianus 'Purple Heart' or is it Hoog's hadriaticus x 'Purple Heart' (with the label saying so)? ??? ???
If you can't give a clue, than it is no problem. I enjoy the beauty of it :).
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Whatever it is, it looks gorgeous, John ! ;)
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Yes it does Luc and a promising good garden Crocus. Flowering proliferous and quite weather resistent 8).
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My crocus medius (ligusticus) planted in the garden are now in full bloom...
they seem in better shape than the ones in pots...Could someone tell me if these also show signs of virus?
perhaps it was pot culture that they did not like?
I think there is at least 1 of the corms in the ground which has no virus...what do you think?
Pontus
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Pontus - difficult to say. The top pic looks OK but the bottom one looks slightly suspicious to my eyes - white streaks on petals? C. ligusticus grows well in pots with me.
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Ian,
you have a very nice form of C. cartwrightianus raised from seed. 8) :o Congratulations!
The C. leavigatus is a beauty too, nice markings outside. 8)
John,
from just comparing images I'd say you have a x hadriaticus 'Purple Heart'.
But if you would have claimed it is a nice form of a C. mathewii I guess nobody would complain :D
The optical differences from top view are marginal except maybe that C. hadriaticus usually flowers with leaves...
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Thanks Armin. It indeed resembles nice forms of mathewii if I compare it on photos so I am certainly not complaining :) :).
It is better looking than any of my mathewii I have so far, except from Crocus mathewii 'Brian Mathew', a selected beautiful mathewii form by Janis. I hope to show a photo soon, because it is about to flower. Hopefully the weather will be helpful too. Sunny days this week so keeping my fingers crossed to show it. The first flower of it this season was eaten by a slug before I could take a suitable photo of it >:(.
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Ian,
you have a very nice form of C. cartwrightianus raised from seed. 8) :o Congratulations!
The C. leavigatus is a beauty too, nice markings outside. 8)
Thanks Armin yes cartwrightianus can be very attractive and variable
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Very late season here
cartwrightianus from seed in the frame with tournefortii on the left and
A nice laevigatus in the open garden and
assumaniae from a generous friend- thanks
Never mind by the late season Ian . They look good and healthy. Like Armin said , very good forms indeed.
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Whatever it is, it looks gorgeous, John ! ;)
I agree with Luc . Stunning John !
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Janis, I am a bit confused and hope you can help me. My following crocus 'Purple Heart' has a very dark throat and tube and resembles some best forms of mathewii. So is it the UK cartwrightianus 'Purple Heart' or is it Hoog's hadriaticus x 'Purple Heart' (with the label saying so)? ??? ???
If you can't give a clue, than it is no problem. I enjoy the beauty of it :).
On attached pictures you can see cartwrightianus Purple Heart as it was in show where I saw it for the first time
On next the same in my collection
Then hadriaticus Purple Heart and
mathewii Dream Dancer (white anthers are not typical - some development problem) - so you can see that yours is hadriaticus x Purple Heart
and at end Crocus hyemalis.
Janis
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Thank you very much Janis. Very helpful.
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Crocus tournefortii is blooming now :) Nearly a couple of weeks later than usual.
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Crocus tournefortii is blooming now :) Nearly a couple of weeks later than usual.
Tatsuo - that's a very fine potful.
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Crocus tournefortii is blooming now :) Nearly a couple of weeks later than usual.
Again superplants Tatsuo ! How do you grow them so compact and beautiful ?
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Again superplants Tatsuo ! How do you grow them so compact and beautiful ?
I was just about to say the same thing! Lovely plants, so neat.
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Some Crocus in bloom today, due to the strong winds they are a bit untidy...
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Tatsuo - that's a very fine potful.
Again superplants Tatsuo ! How do you grow them so compact and beautiful ?
I was just about to say the same thing! Lovely plants, so neat.
Thank you all :) :) :) I think you mainly mentioned their short leaves when its flowering time. Probably the climate. Deadly heat and long summer and following warm autumn affected something to the crocus growth this year. Usually, their leaves grow more than this year, as in a picture blow.
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Tatsuo - C. tournefortii very beautiful 8)
Oron,
super images of rarely cultivates species. :o 8)
I hope you and your family stay save by the current re-escalating military conflicts in your region. :(
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The winter comes with big steps, only in the greenhouse still some blossoms.
Beds protected with air cushion foil.
Crocus hyemalis from Israel, i think the last flower for this year.
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Hi.
Do you know this page?! Just found.
http://www.flowersinisrael.com/Crocushyemalis_page.htm (http://www.flowersinisrael.com/Crocushyemalis_page.htm)
Daniel
PS @ Dirk: you have a mail
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Hi Deda,
Thanks a lot for this hint!
Greetings from Solingen to the east!
Gerd
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Wonderful crocuses everybody.
I've not got much to offer.
Crocus pulchellus is still flowering. It started at the beginning of October and is gradually taking over my garden. It all started from a few stray seeds or cormlets in used potting compost. It's lovely when flowering but the leaves can be a nuisance growing through small plants. The pics were taken on November 7th when it was warm enough for a few honey bees and even a couple of silver Y moths to be out.
A good potful of Crocus banaticus and a single one outside
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The sun is here today....finally. So here is my most beautiful Crocus in the garden:
Crocus mathewii "Brian Mathew" a wonderful selection by Janis.
May it prosper and multiply to give me an awesome display in a couple of years 8)..........hopefully ;D.
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Although I posted this one a week or so it was so nice in the sunshine of yesterday that I thought to show it again. Crocus assumaniae from a friend in the North - thanks Tony W
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Dirk,
lovely C. hyemalis. I see your crocus beds are already well prepared for any black frost attacks. :)
Roma,
you can call you 'lucky' - I would be happy able to say my crocus pulchellus 'gradually taking over my garden'. Not a single one currently with me. :'(
How can crocus ever become a nuisance? ??? :o ;D
John,
indeed it is one of the most beautiful crocus we know in cultivation. 8) Hope it multiplies with you quickly.
Ian,
nice potful C. asumaniae 8) It is quite difficult to believe C. mathewii is so close related to be considered a form of C. asumaniae.
Does anybody know the latest phylogenetic research results on this?
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Dirk,
lovely C. hyemalis. I see your crocus beds are already well prepared for any black frost attacks. :)
Roma,
you can call you 'lucky' - I would be happy able to say my crocus pulchellus 'gradually taking over my garden'. Not a single one currently with me. :'(
How can crocus ever become a nuisance? ??? :o ;D
John,
indeed it is one of the most beautiful crocus we know in cultivation. 8) Hope it multiplies with you quickly.
Ian,
nice potful C. asumaniae 8) It is quite difficult to believe C. mathewii is so close related to be considered a form of C. asumaniae.
Does anybody know the latest phylogenetic research results on this?
Armin i just wonder if in the end there are a few sp flying under one banner just like they did for the Vernus complex.
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Ian,
nice potful C. asumaniae 8) It is quite difficult to believe C. mathewii is so close related to be considered a form of C. asumaniae.
Does anybody know the latest phylogenetic research results on this?
Armin - The most recent research I know (Peterson et al, 2008) shows Cc. asumaniae & mathewii
as sister (sibling) species.
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Roma,
you can call you 'lucky' - I would be happy able to say my crocus pulchellus 'gradually taking over my garden'. Not a single one currently with me. :'(
How can crocus ever become a nuisance? ??? :o ;D
Wish I'd known earlier, Armin. I sent quite a lot of Crocus pulchellus seed to the SRGCseed xchange and scattered the rest in the wood beside my garden. Please remind me next year and I can send you lots of seed.
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Ian,
nice potful C. asumaniae 8) It is quite difficult to believe C. mathewii is so close related to be considered a form of C. asumaniae.
Does anybody know the latest phylogenetic research results on this?
Armin thanks. Asumaniae I believe certainly grows with mathewii and the way to tell the difference is by the purple blotch ;) ::)
Here is my first flower on C caspius. This is a nice bonus since I have been trying for some years to germinate seeds from many sources and last summer a kind forumist took pity on me and sent me this wonderful starter kit - thanks Ian
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Roma,
I'm glad for your kind offer. :-* I'd like to reseed C. pulchellus in the meadow.
I'll remind you next season.
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Reg. asumaniae & mathewii.
I believe your explanation of the diffence by color is too simple, Ian :D
Dave, there is big difference in the chromosome number (2n=26 asumaniae, 2n=70 mathewii). I'm not aware of any successful crosses between both.
Don't think one can put it under one banner. And, I'm convinced there will be still future surprises in vernus complex.
Gerry, thanks - that's my status of knowledge too.
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Reg. asumaniae & mathewii.
I believe your explanation of the diffence by color is too simple, Ian :D
Dave, there is big difference in the chromosome number (2n=26 asumaniae, 2n=70 mathewii). I'm not aware of any successful crosses between both.
Don't think one can put it under one banner. And, I'm convinced there will be still future surprises in vernus complex.
Gerry, thanks - that's my status of knowledge too.
Armin where did you get that info from because on the paper it has Mathewii 2n=16
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3221075/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3221075/)
and in my opinion i think its more allied to cartwrightianus but untill the dna mapping is finished we can all guess.
Armin i am intending to cross mathewii next year with all the close allied sp to see what happens.
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Reg. asumaniae & mathewii.
Dave, there is big difference in the chromosome number (2n=26 asumaniae, 2n=70 mathewii).
I'm sure I have read this somewhere also. Just can't find it at the moment.
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Armin i would also like to point you here as well as the person who wrote that mathewii has a chromosone count of 2n=70.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3221075/figure/F1/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3221075/figure/F1/) I still do think they will be placed under one banner in the end but i am a lumper and this is only my opinion.I do respect your opinion Armin
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I'm sure I have read this somewhere also. Just can't find it at the moment.
My reference is the book 'Crocuses' from Janis. ???
It seems somewhere happend a typo. :-[
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My reference is the book 'Crocuses' from Janis. ???
It seems somewhere happend a typo. :-[
I used that too Armin.
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I used that too Armin.
I gave it from FLORA OF TURKEY, vol. 11 - there is mentioned 2n - 70. I haven't possibilities to check chromosome numbers.
Janis
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The most recent, not yet published phylogeny, places hadriaticus and mathewii as sister species. They list 2n=70 for mathewii and 2n=26 for asumaniae. They estimate that their are probably about 150 species in the genus.
Aaron
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The most recent, not yet published phylogeny, places hadriaticus and mathewii as sister species. They list 2n=70 for mathewii and 2n=26 for asumaniae. They estimate that their are probably about 150 species in the genus.
Aaron
OK .. Let us know please when they publish. Thanks.
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Like i said in the beginning it's my opinion,the paper i have put a link is also backed up by a book written by Dr Moshe Negbi the links here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uLSGgd9sEOUC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=chromsone+count+of+crocus+mathewii&source=bl&ots=cAwKC6Hw72&sig=wO32PnjIGaUWgKyRCmdWpWCQq1c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V0mtUOP4DquX0QW2iYHoAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chromsone%20count%20of%20crocus%20mathewii&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uLSGgd9sEOUC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=chromsone+count+of+crocus+mathewii&source=bl&ots=cAwKC6Hw72&sig=wO32PnjIGaUWgKyRCmdWpWCQq1c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V0mtUOP4DquX0QW2iYHoAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chromsone%20count%20of%20crocus%20mathewii&f=false) you can see here he states mathewii is 2n=16 and both are published a few years old and shows hadriaticus as a sister sp but having the same chromosone count which makes more sense me(unless Aaron you are saying that chaps work is nonsense and the unpublished work is what i should believe and who do i believe were does the misinformation stop is misinformation being passed on and on because people can't be bothered to do the groundwork), as for the high chromosone count i will be crossing mathewii like i said next year so we will see.Can i just clarify Will a 2n=16 cross with a 2n=70
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The most recent, not yet published phylogeny, places hadriaticus and mathewii as sister species..........
Aaron
Well, this is different to the results obtained by Petersen et al. Let's hope it is based on more than five plastid regions.
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The most recent, not yet published phylogeny, places hadriaticus and mathewii as sister species. They list 2n=70 for mathewii and 2n=26 for asumaniae. They estimate that their are probably about 150 species in the genus.
Aaron
Perhaps this explains why several of my recent lots of C mathewii raised from open pollinated seed have produced unremarkable pure white flowers. There are plenty of C hadriaticus in the same frame as the C mathewii. I'll have to take a closer look at them.
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Perhaps this explains why several of my recent lots of C mathewii raised from open pollinated seed have produced unremarkable pure white flowers. There are plenty of C hadriaticus in the same frame as the C mathewii. I'll have to take a closer look at them.
There are populations in wild where well coloured at base C. mathewii is mixed with pure white specimens. I didn't see such populations by myself but I read about such plants on our forum. I don't think that hadriaticus could be crossable with mathewii, but in cultivation sometimes strange crosses can succeed. Only I recommend you to bring pots inside before opening of flowers and to take off anthers to avoid any possible self-pollination and effect of bees/flies and other wild pollinators. I'm using for such experiments bathroom's window and never got seeds from attempts to cross in all possible combinations CC. korolkowii, alatavicus, michelsonii, although such crosses are reported.
Janis
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Perhaps this explains why several of my recent lots of C mathewii raised from open pollinated seed have produced unremarkable pure white flowers. There are plenty of C hadriaticus in the same frame as the C mathewii. I'll have to take a closer look at them.
Brian M mentions albino forms of C. mathewii in his 'Crocus Update' (2002) together with a picture of what look like cultivated plants.
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Only I recommend you to bring pots inside before opening of flowers and to take off anthers to avoid any possible self-pollination and effect of bees/flies and other wild pollinators. I'm using for such experiments bathroom's window and never got seeds from attempts to cross in all possible combinations CC. korolkowii, alatavicus, michelsonii, although such crosses are reported.
Janis
:) If I only had the time!
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23123733 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23123733)
This is the paper soon to be published in Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution.
They use 1 chloroplast region and 2 nuclear. The BS support on the branches seems high and the clades look good, but with what I know of Crocus doesn't mean much! I like them and grow about 2 dozen species.
I've not read through completely to see where the chromosome counts originated.
Aaron
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I have seen large numbers of Crocus mathewii in the wild and although the amount of purple staining varied it was always present and there were no white ones. Equally I have seen large numbers of C. asumaniae and they have always been white with no hint of staining.
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I have seen large numbers of Crocus mathewii in the wild and although the amount of purple staining varied it was always present and there were no white ones. Equally I have seen large numbers of C. asumaniae and they have always been white with no hint of staining.
The same is with me. Unfortunately I can't find in my notes who reported on Forum about such population. May be Maggi can help?
Janis
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Is this the one you mean Janis ??
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg259076#msg259076 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg259076#msg259076)
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Here are a selection of posts where C. mathewii is mentioned in the wild ......
Margaret Thorne ...
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6228.msg175262#msg175262 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6228.msg175262#msg175262)
YT wrote of a JJA collection : http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg259076#msg259076 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=9360.msg259076#msg259076) ( this is the post mentioned in the post above by Ron :) )
These two websites have both been mentioned in the Forum......Kees Jan van Zwienen photos http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Southwestern-Turkey-2007/14048085_h2L4cB# (http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Southwestern-Turkey-2007/14048085_h2L4cB#)!i=1040748365&k=MdrfD5G
Marijn van den Brink photos
http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Turkey-nieuw2007herfst/14164115_Gw4r2/33/1045413931_jXcsH# (http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Turkey-nieuw2007herfst/14164115_Gw4r2/33/1045413931_jXcsH#)!i=1045418276&k=PcXKR
Janis himself...
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4369.msg134962#msg134962 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4369.msg134962#msg134962)
Janis, Kees Jan .....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4600.msg124679#msg124679 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4600.msg124679#msg124679)
Kees Jan ....
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=943.msg23911#msg23911 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=943.msg23911#msg23911)
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Does anyone know what criteria Pasche and Kerndorff used to distinguish C. mathewii as a new and/or distinct species? I presume it was not colour.
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Can i ask if in Janis's and Arons papers(Aaron why can't i read the rest of that paper) says the chromosone count is 2n=70 and other papers don't(Two question why?and how does that happen) could this mean thats Mathewii could have different chromsone counts also does a high chromosone count point towards a hybrid?And can we 100% from the work done say that these are distinct sp.Or will everbody be able to put there spin on it depending on how one interprets it?SSSSSOOOOOO many question but this side of the hobby fascinates me so sorry.
Does anyone know what criteria Pasche and Kerndorff used to distinguish C. mathewii as a new and/or distinct species? I presume it was not colour.
Good question lets hope not.
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By new paper (it isn't still published so can't give more information, before official publication - it is reason, why you can't read full text at present) C. mathewii has 2n-70, but did they check this number or not - I don't know. But C. mathewii is closest neighbour of hadriaticus regardless of geographical separation.
Janis
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By new paper .......... C. mathewii is closest neighbour of hadriaticus regardless of geographical separation.
Janis
This is a radically different conclusion to that reached in the phylogenetic study by Petersen et al . The latter also claim that their study supports the claim by Kerndorff & Pasche (made on morphological grounds) that the closest relative of C. mathewii is C. asumaniae. These different conclusions require explanation.
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This is a radically different conclusion to that reached in the phylogenetic study by Petersen et al . The latter also claim that their study supports the claim by Kerndorff & Pasche (made on morphological grounds) that the closest relative of C. mathewii is C. asumaniae. These different conclusions require explanation.
I will read new paper this evening, then I will see some motivation (may be). Really I belong to generation which as most important regards morphological features, genetics can only confirm some ideas. In any case at present I can't to image how morphologically separate Crocus chrysanthus complex where certainly are several species included without genetical research. But for rising up of all biflorus subsp. to species status I can only applaud. DNA taxonomy is quite new and nice that between its research subjects is genus Crocus, too. Greatest problem is that at present are checked only small part of genome and sometimes results of various researches can be contradictory.
Janis
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Janis - I too belong to the generation which regards morphology as fundamental to classification. While genetic/phylogenetic analysis may eventually prove illuminating, at present the procedures are too limited to draw any definite conclusions or to discard a taxonomy based on traditional morphological criteria. Incidentally, the 'genetic concept of species' was severely criticised by by Harland in the 1930's &, in my view, his criticism still seems valid.
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Thank you Janis and Gerry for your answers,i too think morphology does play apart but when we start using colour and length of stigma and do the anthers extend over the stigma or not ect it just doesn't seem right to me, when every sp has or should have a wide variation with in its genetic parameters and when a plant slightly strays from that is it right to give it a name?
Are the papers that differs are they just two different interpretation of the findings.
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Thank you Janis and Gerry for your answers,i too think morphology does play apart but when we start using colour and length of stigma and do the anthers extend over the stigma or not ect it just doesn't seem right to me, when every sp has or should have a wide variation with in its genetic parameters and when a plant slightly strays from that is it right to give it a name?
Are the papers that differs are they just two different interpretation of the findings.
Yes, Dave, in some degree I can agree with you, but what to do in cases when you know/feel that they are different and must to find features easy visible and allowing to determinate species? That I noted this year (see my topic - Crocus speciosus fever). Each taxa which I separated has good area in which only one type of flower/corm/tunic/habitat dominate. They are well separated geographically from others. My guideline in speciosus case was two subspecies separated by Brian Mathew - ilgazensis and xantholaimos. So I continued his way. May be I'm right, may be not. Everywhere (inclusive locus classicus of ilgazensis and xantholaimos) I found some atypical specimen. But crocuses are very variable. We see a lot of biflorus group subspecies now raised up to species level by genetical research. But morphologically we separate them just by some minor features, inclusive position of style comparing with anthers. In same time I'm always thinking about Fritillaria persica forms which looks as absolutely different species but are regarded as one. Does we must follow this concept in crocuses, too? I don't think so. But it is individual opinion. I don't like subspecies status. In my collection I left subspecies only for very few Crocus species, one of them is speciosus complex, but most of others are registered as species. I started this in my Crocus book with melantherus, with sieberi complex, and now I'm very disappointed that I hadn't courage to be consequent and left subspecies in biflorus, pallasii (soon must be published research confirming that subspecies of pallasii are independent species), especially I'm disappointed for my timidity in case of cancellatus, although in my catalogue I'm using species level for lycius. Now I think that new one, completely rewriten book is needed. Hope soon will come Helmut's and Eric's complete revision on biflorus. But what to do with chrysanthus? I'm too old to start on this complex. May be some will have courage?
Janis
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Janis - I too belong to the generation which regards morphology as fundamental to classification. While genetic/phylogenetic analysis may eventually prove illuminating, at present the procedures are too limited to draw any definite conclusions or to discard a taxonomy based on traditional morphological criteria. Incidentally, the 'genetic concept of species' was severely criticised by by Harland in the 1930's &, in my view, his criticism still seems valid.
I should perhaps amplify this a bit stimulated by Daveyp's comments and an email from Pascal Bruggeman taking me to task for what he sees as my dismissal of phylogenetic studies.
Classifications based on morphology are far from unproblematic. The problem is of course variation. In principle this can lead to a mutiplication of classes where the end point involves regarding each individual plant as a separate & distinct species. This can only be avoided if we suppose that some characteristics are more important than others (in the jargon, are 'essential characteristics'). This judgment involves an element of subjectivity, hence the final classification does so also. Nevertheless it is interesting that the phylogenetic analysis by Persen et al broadly supports the 'traditional' morphological classification by Brian Mathew - although there are some differences.
I believe current phylogenetic studies, while interesting, are at a very early stage of development & still rather limited in terms what is actually analysed; the two papers mentioned in this thread analyse different, but still limited, elements. Furthermore, the construction of the 'trees' involves assumptions which, in principle can be criticised (not that I am competent to do it!). So, I believe that they cannot at present be regarded as definitive, merely suggestive. Pascal believes that eventually they will replace morphological studies & he may be right.
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Wow two fantastic answers. ;D ;D
With two different sp being found to be Mathewi's sister sp could it be as simple as they were its parents,before everybody shouts at me tell tell me those two sp don't overlap in their distribution,not now they don't well the last hundred or so years we have been recording but i am talking hundreds of thousands of years ago,could it be the mathewi in its tiny little pockets where its found was once the overlap of distribution but over time the sp retract to leave the pocket of mathewi behind....sorry again about my ramblings but just another question in my head.
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A few variations seen in Crocus boryi, C. goulymi and C. niveus in the Peloponnese earlier this week.
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Crocus biflorus ssp melantherus was present in its usual large numbers I but didnt see as many 'stippled' forms this year. The following images were taken near the village of Adami last Tuesday, all growing in an area of about ten sq. m.and show some of the variation readily found in the 'striped' form
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And a couple more Crocus biflorus ssp melantherus from Adami, Peloponnese.
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Beautifull pics Melvyn,do you think the stipled forms are dissapearing,it would be a shame for that colour form to go?I really like the dark goulymi.
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Beautifull pics Melvyn,do you think the stipled forms are dissapearing,it would be a shame for that colour form to go?I really like the dark goulymi.
Hello Davey, I have no reason to think they might be disappearing, I think we were just not there at the right time. For those not sure what I am going on about I attach an image taken in 2009 of the two forms together.
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Melvyn wonderful crocus from wild. specialy melantherus with yellowish background and dark goulimyi.
Thank for these small beauty...
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Hello Davey, I have no reason to think they might be disappearing, I think we were just not there at the right time. For those not sure what I am going on about I attach an image taken in 2009 of the two forms together.
Melvyn stunning thing thank for posting,when you said there was none about i had an awful thought the site had been poached on(i won't say collected).
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Fascinating pictures of beautiful finds, Melvyn! Thanks for sharing the pictures. Another area to visit...
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Great to see Melvyn . My dream to visit the Pelops in november is only getting bigger after this postings ....
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Some Crocus in bloom today, due to the strong winds they are a bit untidy...
Had missed your pictures, Oron - great plants and so well grown! - C.aleppicus, C. veneris and C. ochroleucus albus are my favourites - is your C. ochroleucus albus clonal or do there exist white flowering populations of this species?
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Some pics from yesterday in my garden - thanks to very generous friends two exceptional beauties are flowering on the Balearic Islands:
Crocus hyemalis - looks every year better - and also Crocus moabiticus has adapted well the last years to the local conditions, it is the first time it has a fascinating flower.
As the control of moisture in pots is quite difficult with such delicate and rare plants I planted them out (accompanied by
some heavy bellyache) - it seems the decision was not wrong.
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Hans, nice clump of C. hyemalis, but C. moabiticus is gorgeous!
Poul
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Can anyone shed any light on this 'new' ;D species please?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2012.01684.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2012.01684.x/abstract)
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Lots of rain today, but in the afternoon some blue sky was visible with a trace of sun. Not the best conditions for opening up its flower, but one lilac Crocus mathewii decided to do it (a little bit) making me very happy :) :).
White on the outside, but lilac on the inside.
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Thanks Poul! :)
Not the best conditions for opening up its flower, but one lilac Crocus mathewii decided to do it...
Nice Crocus John, but some details of your mathewii are strange:
- no stamens are visible
- long leaves at flowering time
- very late flowering
This details remember me my mathewii-imposter I received some years ago - it was a hybrid of somthing else but mathewii. :(
Here a picture of it: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6194.msg174305#msg174305 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6194.msg174305#msg174305)
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Can anyone shed any light on this 'new' ;D species please?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2012.01684.x/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2012.01684.x/abstract)
CROCUS DEMIRIZIANUS - it is very close to C. nubigena. It is described from surroundings of Čan - from roadside to Čannakale. There are mentioned three features separating it from nubigena. One of them relates to leaves but by my opinion it too much overlaps with nubigena. Another two seem to be more valid. The first is colour of petals - in demirizianus it is white with bluish purple flushed outside, in nubigena it generally is striped. How valid it is? I don’t know. Many species from biflorus group has specimens growing side by side with flushed, speckled and striped back of petals. Such B. Mathew mention for C. nubigena, too. The third feature is shape of anthers. In demirizianus it is pointed. You can compare this on attached pictures.
I have sample (R2CV-008) from almost same locality, only collected a little higher (demirizianus ~360m, mine 435 m). Another stock from lower altitudes didn’t bloom with me yet (I have only 2 years old seedlings from wild collected seeds). May be Ibrahim has pictures of this one.
Janis
Sorry, I didn't know how to inserrt picture from PDF file. So the last entry in attachment files you can open using Microsoft Word Document program. May be Maggi can place it as picture. It is fragment from picture in original publication.
Picture added to your post now Janis
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Thank you Janis.
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I was realy surprised when I see this Nourdic Journa :( because I have found this crocus 3 years ago. Just it was waiting for research on it.
I have seen first time this crocus with seeds pots on at the end of february at att. 250m. I was very happy that I have discovered an autumn biflorus. Next year they start to flower in december and finished january so It can't be an autumn crocus but early one.
According to my own opservation this is very close to nubigena by morphologie and geography. I can only separate this from nubigena by its long filaments and without any regular strips on outer petals.
You can find some more photos im my own blog wich I just started to build up,
http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/demirizianus (http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/demirizianus)
Here I am posting few frame of this nice crocus
Crocus demirizianus
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Many thanks for fantastic pictures, Ibrahim. Your website is very good, too. Pictures of "demirizianus" confirms variability of petals outside colouring. I checked my nubigena pictures and found that tips of anthers are very variable - pointed, rounded and filament's length varie, too. Plants from Samos has blue flowers (only few bloomed with me yet). So it seems that only early blooming allows to separate it from nubigena, but for such altitude it isn't special. So I don't know how valid as species it is. Most likely I would keep it under label Crocus nubigena - at least my plants.
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So I don't know how valid as species it is. Most likely I would keep it under label Crocus nubigena - at least my plants.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That's what i like to hear.Janis you have made me happy.
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Ibrahim, marvelous photos on your blog site. I notice your link to the SRGC still uses the 'old' link, may I ask you to change that to www.srgc.net (http://www.srgc.net) ?
I've added a link to your pages from the SRGC links.
Thank you! :-*
What a very beautiful crocus this " demirizianus "is .... 8)
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Not the season, but I want to add here pictures of some of mine nubigena, mostly from Lesbos and Samos.
Janis
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Maggi thank you so much for nice compliments. I just start to make my blog so update whenever I learned to use the program. It will take lots of time but no problem I have time..
Janis you are right C. demirizianus and C. nubigena also is very variable. For C. demirizianus early flowering is my observation. Where I have seen this plant was low altitude only 250 m. Maybe they found it higher part! If so It can flower later too. My another observation on this crocus, It was a small in size almost half size of nubigena. Bunt in my samples most important feature is long filament.
I am attaching couple pictures with arrow shape of anthers and variations of petals.
With my best wishes to all croconuts….
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Nice Crocus John, but some details of your mathewii are strange:
- no stamens are visible
- long leaves at flowering time
- very late flowering
This details remember me my mathewii-imposter I received some years ago - it was a hybrid of somthing else but mathewii. :(
Here a picture of it: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6194.msg174305#msg174305 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=6194.msg174305#msg174305)
Hans,
Thanks for replying. I have noticed the difference with other mathewii too this afternoon when looking at it more closer. And looking at your 'Dream Dancer' photo on the link you have given, it pretty much look the same as mine. So an imposter it is than? Have you tried to pollinate it. I couldn't find any good anthers on mine. White and shriveled. I obtained mine as 'Dream Dancer' too by the way.
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One from the greenhouse today- Crocus serotinus ssp clusii 'Poseidon'.
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One from the greenhouse today- Crocus serotinus ssp clusii 'Poseidon'.
David - I find this grows quite well outside - it has survived the last two cold winters. And it has stood up to the recent heavy rain.
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Some pics from yesterday in my garden - thanks to very generous friends two exceptional beauties are flowering on the Balearic Islands:
Crocus hyemalis - looks every year better - and also Crocus moabiticus has adapted well the last years to the local conditions, it is the first time it has a fascinating flower.
As the control of moisture in pots is quite difficult with such delicate and rare plants I planted them out (accompanied by
some heavy bellyache) - it seems the decision was not wrong.
Wow Hans :o Stunning and such a joy to see them planted out !
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David - I find this grows quite well outside - it has survived the last two cold winters. And it has stood up to the recent heavy rain.
Gerry, I used to keep it outside in a pot but it never flowered for me (and broke down into very small corms) so last season I took it into the greenhouse and got a flower and it's been there ever since. If I can build up the corms a bit I may try it in the garden.
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Not the season, but I want to add here pictures of some of mine nubigena, mostly from Lesbos and Samos.
Janis
Great to see this Janis . Wich period they flowering on Lesbos and Samos ?
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Great to see this Janis . Wich period they flowering on Lesbos and Samos ?
Pictures are from my collection, I collected original bulbs long after flowering by half-dry leaves and identified by corm tunics at collecting time. They are blooming in nature in February.
Janis
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Hans, either you live in the desert or you are a master grower!
Janis and Ibrahim, C. demirizianus is stunning! :o, hopefully one of its characteristics is that it sets seeds freely...
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Some Crocus blooming this sunny morning:
C. pallasii hussknechtii white form from Jordan.
C. pallasii pallasii Album
C. pallasii pallasii with narrow petals [ similar to pallasii turcicus]
C. hermoneus subsp palaestinus
C. Species Nova
C. hyemails with small flowers
C. aleppicus with very large flowers
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Oron,
It is very nice to see the crosuses from your part :)
I hope I will be able to grow somethings from your natives.
at least I have more chance then european croconus :)
Your hussknechtii is a little strange! I didn't see before with white anthers!
Best my Wishes...
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Very nice to see Oron . Like Ibrahim already mentioned... I hope I can grow some of them in the future.
It is so special , the idea that Crocus can grow in desert or semi desert -area .
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This weekend I had Crocus wattiorum in flower ...
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Oron,
Your hussknechtii is a little strange! I didn't see before with white anthers!
Best my Wishes...
Salem Ibrahim,
In fact it is the first time i see it as well as it flower now for the first time, tomorrow I'll check the pollen.
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It is so special , the idea that Crocus can grow in desert or semi desert -area .
Well, all deserts where Crocus grow, used to have, not very long ago a Mediterranean climate. They have just developed ways to survive.
The deserts are spreading north quite rapidly, for example C. aleppicus which grows in the desert is about a third of the size of the northern populations.
Some populations receive almost 950mm while other can live with less then 80mm.
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I hope I can grow some of them in the future.
...and i hope i can grow species from high, cold elevations.
Maybe we can swap our gardens for a few years... ;)
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Kris and Oron, thanks a lot for your comments!
Hans, either you live in the desert or you are a master grower!
Have a good Microclimate. ;)
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Kris and Oron, thanks a lot for your comments!
Have a good Microclimate. ;)
Hans your magic is not only from the climate ;)
You are using more stons than the other growers
Mostly you are master grower!
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This weekend I had Crocus wattiorum in flower ...
Kris
very nice plants. They are two weeks later than mine which are now well over probably due to different watering regimes.
Interesting to see them flowering with the leaves which is supposed to be one of the differences with C. nerimaniae. This year my C. wattiorum have flowered without leaves just like the C. nerimaniae
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Kris, nice to see Crocus wattiorum in so later time.
Tony,
in my observation blossoms Crocus nerimaniae always without foliage, it appears only weeks after the blossom and remains also the whole winter about no longer as 2-3 cm. With Crocus wattiorum the foliage comes by the end of the blossom and grows in mild weather the whole winter. Now Crocus nerimaniae about 2 mm has
long foliage, Crocus wattiorum about 5 cm.
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Kris
very nice plants. They are two weeks later than mine which are now well over probably due to different watering regimes.
Interesting to see them flowering with the leaves which is supposed to be one of the differences with C. nerimaniae. This year my C. wattiorum have flowered without leaves just like the C. nerimaniae
Thanks Tony & Dirk . Everything is late here , don't know why. I have some Crocus (boryi , eg) that are stil in bud .
I start to water the first weekend of september...
But I changed my growing conditions ...Previous years I grew them in some kind of plunged bed outside (covered in winter)
But in wintertime I had a lot of damage and lost many plants (especially Colchicum) So I want to rebuild this plungebed ...
And now (emmergency) I put al the pots with bulbs in my greenhouse (not an alpinehouse)wich is very hot. We had a warm august and september .That's maybe a reason ?
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Kris, nice to see Crocus wattiorum in so later time.
Tony,
in my observation blossoms Crocus nerimaniae always without foliage, it appears only weeks after the blossom and remains also the whole winter about no longer as 2-3 cm. With Crocus wattiorum the foliage comes by the end of the blossom and grows in mild weather the whole winter. Now Crocus nerimaniae about 2 mm has
long foliage, Crocus wattiorum about 5 cm.
Just checked my plants - nerimaniae has 2-5 cm long leaves (finished blooming ~10 days ago), wattiorum - 5-10 cm long leaves (last flowers plucked off today). Outside is snow and minus 3 C.
Janis
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Just checked my plants - nerimaniae has 2-5 cm long leaves (finished blooming ~10 days ago), wattiorum - 5-10 cm long leaves (last flowers plucked off today). Outside is snow and minus 3 C.
Janis
I just checked mine and the nerimaniae and the wattiorum are both just visible at soil level only a few mm long.
I have looked at my photographs of wattiorum in the wild and they also have no leaves visible.
Clearly they are variable.
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Tony,
On my observation, C. wattiorum is flowering with leaves even sometimes leaves start to grow earlier then flowers.
C. nerimaniae flower without leaves. On my nerimaniae the flowers are over long times ago but the leaves just showed the tips.
I just put my wattiorum page link: the photos taken in different gardens and in different conditions.
http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/wattiorum (http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/wattiorum)
with my best wishes.. ;)
ibrahim
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Tony,
On my observation, C. wattiorum is flowering with leaves even sometimes leaves start to grow earlier then flowers.
C. nerimaniae flower without leaves. On my nerimaniae the flowers are over long times ago but the leaves just showed the tips.
I just put my wattiorum page link: the photos taken in different gardens and in different conditions.
http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/wattiorum (http://crocusmania.blogspot.com/search/label/wattiorum)
with my best wishes.. ;)
ibrahim
Excellent homepage and pictures, Ibrahim. My greetings!
Janis