Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: Lillii on June 28, 2012, 11:17:47 PM
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Hi all you thalictrum lovers!
I need some help to ID a thalictrum please. I bought it from Bjørnar last year. He said it's from China but he didn't have the name. It had purple leaves and was finished flowering. Full of seeds ;D. It has been growing good this year and now it's flowerbuds are getting ready. The leaves are deep green with an hint of purple and the flowerbuds looks yellowish. Tonight i saw that one bud was opening and it was white and fuzzy. I have been looking in 'Guide to the flowers of western China' and i was thinking that the flowerbuds looks a little like t. yunnanense. But leaves don't match and the flowerbuds are pink. Anyone have a clue?
Thanks, Lill
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Thalictrum ichangense has that nice purple young foliage and I think that
Thalictrum pseudoichangense has that too..... somewhere for a search to begin, perhaps?
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My T. ichangense has nice light purple flowers, well silver marked foliage and is smaller
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Thank you for the reply Maggi :)
I too have a thalictrum ichangense and it is quite smaller that the one i have shown you here. The one in question reaches my shoulders with flowers, and though I am not tall at all (158 cm), it beats the tiny t. ichangense by far. What does 'pseudo' mean ???
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In this context, of the addition to a flower name, it ( pseuodo) means that the second plant is very similar in many ways.... other examples are Meconopsis integrifolia and M. pseudointegrifolia.
Here is a paper on Thalictrum pseudoichangense
flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/novon/novo-14-04-510.pdf
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All I can say is to start here http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=132688#KEY-1-7 (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=132688#KEY-1-7)
After that there are only another 70-80 species to key through. If you have close up pictures of the filaments and styles, details of the pubescence etc., I could key it out, but Thalictrum in the ternate-leaved group can be difficult. Sometime achenes help a lot.
Ichangense and pseudoichangense (with coreanum) have peltate leaves with the petiole attached inside the lamina rather than the basal edge.
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@ Maggi: It's very small and beautiful that one. But it can't be a match though, as Afloden say, it has peltate leaves. Mine hasn't.
@ Afloden: this is a lot of information to try to search through. I'm afraid i don't speak taxa just yet :P I will try to take some decent close up pictures of the flowers, maybe you can point me in the right direction-ish? I will harvest seeds too off course when the time comes :).
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I'll do what I can! I still have one from Mexico I am trying to put a name on.
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May be omeiense... http://www.heronswood.com/thalictrums-meadow-rue/thalictrum-omeiense-djhc-762/ (http://www.heronswood.com/thalictrums-meadow-rue/thalictrum-omeiense-djhc-762/)
Is it perfumed ?
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It is not perfumed. T. Omeiense is beautiful! My boyfriend took a closeup picture of the flowers. More will come :)
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This thread got me wondering : Are all Thalictrum dioecious ?
It seems not ..........
"All Thalictrum species are herbaceous perennials with nectarless, apetalous flowers. The sepals are small and inconspicuous in the majority of species while some hermaphroditic species have larger and/or colored sepals. Flowers have numerous stamens that are sometimes the most conspicuous part of the flower. The 1- many pistils are simple and uni-ovulate and the fruits are dry achenes. Hermaphroditic (male and female functions within each flower), dioecious (separate sexes on different individuals) and andromonoecious (male and hermaphroditic flowers on the same individual) breeding systems are found in Thalictrum. Species within the genus vary in their mode of pollination (reviewed in Pellmyr 1995). While dioecious species are often wind-pollinated, and hermaphroditic are insect-pollinated, both types of pollination mechanisms have been reported within each breeding system.
Tamura (1995), in the only complete, modern synopsis of the genus, recognizes 190 species of Thalictrum, a much more precise estimate than the 330 species reported in an earlier publication (Tamura 1993). Thalictrum and seven other genera are classified in Ranunculaceae subfamily Thalictroideae Raf. ( = Isopyroideae Tamura). The subfamily is characterized by small "T-type" chromosomes and x = 7 (Jensen et al. 1995; Ro et al. 1997) and its monophyly is supported in phylogenetic analyses of cpDNA restriction sites (Johansson 1995), nuclear genes (Kosuge et al. 1995; Ro et al. 1997) and a combination of nuclear and plastid genes (Hoot 1995). The ITS region sequence analysis of Ro & McPheron (1997) supports (81% bootstrap) the monophyly of Thalictrum (10 species sampled) and the unrooted topology ((Thalictrum, Leptopyrum,Paraquilegia)),((Dichocarpum,Enemion),Aquilegia)). Thalictrum is the only member of Thalictroideae with achenes (the other genera have follicles). Petals have apparently been lost independently in both Thalictrum and Enemion."
The above is quoted from : http://oregonstate.edu/dept/botany/herbarium/thalictrum/systematics.html (http://oregonstate.edu/dept/botany/herbarium/thalictrum/systematics.html)
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Interesting Maggi, I really like the thalictrums and new knowledge is always welcome :) New photo of leaves.
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Maggi,
Not only that, but this as well; http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/29087/ListonAaronBotanyPlantPathPhylogeneticInsightsCorrelates.pdf?sequence=1 (http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/29087/ListonAaronBotanyPlantPathPhylogeneticInsightsCorrelates.pdf?sequence=1) Quite an interesting thing that dioecious taxa are mostly American (and rather boring compared to the Chinese taxa).
Seems this plant is T. smithii judging by the close up. Do you have more than one plant? If not, then I don't see how it made seed. Those flowers all look male. Maybe it can make ovaries when happy since the FOC key states it can be bisexual as well.
Enjoy it! Its not in cultivation here in the US.
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Seems this plant is T. smithii judging by the close up. Do you have more than one plant? If not, then I don't see how it made seed. Those flowers all look male. Maybe it can make ovaries when happy since the FOC key states it can be bisexual as well.
Enjoy it! Its not in cultivation here in the US.
I bought this plant with seeds maturing on it, it was finished flowering, so i don't know how it make seeds. Maybe Bjørnar had several where he had this one? Thank you for helping me!
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Maybe it can make ovaries when happy since the FOC key states it can be bisexual as well.
I think that this thalictrum is bisexual. It has seeds in some areas at the moment and I have noticed that it was regularly visited by flies. T. Smithii you say, but do you really think that the leaves match?
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Based on that achene shape I would go with T. aquilegifolium v. sibiricum. BUT, I would also start at couplet seven and key the plant to make sure. There are too many to choose from, but achene shape is distinctive.
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This looks like a winner! :D I will rest happily with this ID until further notice, thank you Afloden!