Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Cultivation Problems => Topic started by: Rick R. on April 08, 2012, 05:11:28 AM
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I have what I consider to be a very choice plant Jeffersonia dubia, given to me by a NARGS member when it was a small, non-blooming seedling. It produces multiple petaled flowers without fail, but seems to be sterile. I have even tried hand pollinating it with pollen from a normal six petal plant.
I want to divide it this season. I am thinking the best time is after the leaves fully mature? What would you all say? Anyone with good or bad experiences? Do tell...
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A truly wonderful plant Rick. Temperamental about being manhandled at any time these fragile beauties do not appreciate potting on or being moved. If you are going to risk it, then your suggested time would see loss (by breakage) of a lot of leaves ... it might seem more appropriate to divide it a little later when the foliage is dying back naturally?
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A stunningly beautiful plant Rick I would be wary of lifting and dividing it.
Perhaps, in a few weeks time, you could separate off a few shoots from around the edge as cuttings and try rooting them.
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I have to agree with Cliff and Ian. If you don't HAVE to divide it, don't. Firstly because such a big plant of Jeffersonia dubia is a wondrous thing and secondly because it really doesn't enjoy either lifting or dividing. The roots are a hugely tangled mass which it's impossible to divide without a lot of loss and damage. If you cut it into say 4 pieces, you'd get 4 tops all right, but again, probably damaged and 4 root masses only a small portion of their proper size and much broken. I know, I've done it and regretted it ever since. Even several years later, the results are quite disappointing.
You say you don't get seed from this plant. If it's maybe sterile that could be the reason why it flowers so well. Just enjoy that and get some seed from elsewhere.
I have to add that while mine set seeds, the plants are nothing like so free-flowering. Yours has lovely full form in the flowers too.
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I once tried dividing the white form of Jeffersonia and the resulting plantlets sulked for ages. I certainly wouldn't try with a wonderful plant like that as Lesley says. Rooting cuttings sounds a good possibility and one which I might try myself. I have had similar problems dividing Hacquetia epipactis 'Thor'.
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Since Cliff's first comment, I have been thinking that what Ian suggested later is the way to go: to leave the plant undisturbed, but take cuttings or pieces with some roots from the plant edge. (I have never tried this so I am assuming: I really don't know if I will find any roots.)
I'd still like to here more of others' experiences. They seem quite easy to move around as a few year seedling. Gang up on me if you like ;D. This is how we learn!
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I would absolutely let it stay the way it is....here there always popps up lots of seedlings around the motherplants so there no need to divide it...my point of wive ;)....Jonny
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The problem with that Jonny is that Rick says there are no seeds, so no seedlings. :'( If you DO lift it Rick - and I hope you don't - it will take a pretty big heave or two on the large fork or spade. The root mass is seemingly much larger than what is above ground.
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Ohhhh...if i only could read the whole message it would be much better i think....Mea Culpa......If you can wait 2 months Rick i can tell you how it works here need to move one of mine...and then i can try to devide it...like you see of the pic there are seedlings everywhere (plant is darker in color) ...maybe you need another clone?...they seems atleast selffertile because i had only this plant for several years....Jonny
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I don't think it can be fully self-sterile because I have just one flowering plant and I had a dozen pods this last spring/summer (missed most of them before they opened so maybe seedlings later). I have some seedlings from a Canadian Forumist's fresh seed as well. Mine is similar to yours Jonny, in shape and colour. Rick's is a superb form.
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Hi Rick, please bear with me while I repeat myself here on this side of the pond, but wanted to share my sole experience with dividing J. dubia with this audience.
Helping out a friend dispensing with garden plants in anticipation of selling her house and moving, we dug a couple huge J. dubia clumps in late summer, memory escapes me exactly when but I'm leaning towards it being Sepember. The roots are indeed massive, a massive tangle and not easy to divide. But the deed was done out of necessity, and the large clumps broken into 2-3 pieces each, and replanted in my garden. All went smoothly, and the following spring they bloomed well enough, and have been getting bigger and better through thye years. Maybe it does make sense, if one is inclined to divide them, do it when they are in a state of semi-dormancy.
But then again, 2 years ago I dividing up a very large Epimedium membranaceum into 4 pieces, and only one piece ultimately survived, but I put some or all of the blame on that summer breaking records for drought, stressing the plants more than normal.
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Whatever I do, Jonny, do post back here with your results (much) later on. And be sure to let us know when or at what stage of development that you divided it.
I have already tried dabbing pollen from another J. dubia multiple times. The other (normal) plant does produce offspring.
Cuttings/pieces from the plant's edge sure seems like the way to go so far. And I could try them at different times of the year, too. I divided a huge potted Fargesia rufa once, and every division with less than 7 culms perished.
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With no scientific basis whatsoever, I wonder if some particularly fine forms which are free-flowering and vigorous are, in fact triploid (is that the word I mean?) and sterile, while other "ordinary" forms are fertile as one might expect. I'm thinking of your Jeffersonia here Rick but also of a single plant I have of Cyclamen cilicium which has slightly larger flowers of deeper colour than is usual, and it flowers for a good four months. But in 20 something years it has never made a single seed pod even though frequently pollinated by others of the same species, which do have good pods each year. It is in a trough and has gradually squeezed out other plants, to be the only one left, the tuber just about rectangular in shape now.
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What a superb plant, Rick. Sometimes with our rare ferns we cut the plant into just 2 pieces (between crowns) then prise out one half hopefully with a half of the root ball without disturbing the other half. If you do divide the plant, this might be worth a try.
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Just beautiful.... Rick's plant reminds of a fabulous specimen in the gardens at Arrowhead Alpines, Bob and Brigitta Stewart's place in Michigan. Great deep foliage color, beautiful flower color--the whole package for J. dubia. I've lusted after it ever since I first saw it....
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Arrowhead Alpines is our beloved specialty nursery in Michigan with extensive offerings. It was very sad to lose Bob this past December.
I also had a chance to see Brigitta's J. dubia in flowers and just could not get over it. I have been lusting for one ever since and I finally was able to buy one from a Japanese vendor this February when I was in Japan. It was very tough to wash soil from its massive roots for inspection. Reading this thread talking about J. dubia not liking its roots to be bothered is making me very nervous.
Koko
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i was just told by an expert grower in canada that jeffersonia dubia hates being devided, and should not be devided unless its a matter of lief and death....if devided, it will most likely die, or not do well at all.
Your plant is stunning, i would advise to leave it as it is and enjoy its amazing display for many more years.
after searching since 2007, i have finally found 1 or 2 sources for jeffersonia dubia that sell fairly good quality plants, although these take 1 yeasr to establish...so if you want more jeffersonia dubia, they can be found in specialist nurseries...so i would advise not to devide yours.
Pontus
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i was just told by an expert grower in canada that jeffersonia dubia hates being devided, and should not be devided unless its a matter of lief and death....if devided, it will most likely die, or not do well at all.
As I mentioned above, I divided a couple large clumps in late summer, and they established just fine without difficulty or setback. Also, they're very easy from seed; small plants can flower the third year from seed.
1. Seed flats of J. dubia.
2. Seed flats of J. diphyllum
3. Sown-in-place J. dubia, seedlings entering their 2nd year.
4. Self-sown J. dubia seedling, which I believe to be a 2nd year seedling.
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The RHS Plant Finder lists 16 UK suppliers for Jeffersonia dubia and 18 for J. diphylla.
I bought a dubia at last years South West AGS Show and planted it out in a heavily shaded peaty bed, it was in flower and continued to flower well. This year it has sulked in the flowering department but the leaf looks OK. This year I bought another and this time planted it out in ordinery, gritty garden soil in half shade. Next year will tell!
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Rick,
Its not that decent a clump yet so don't even think about dividing it! Why are you considering this drastic action ... selling? disease? I don't think so. Maybe let it grow?
I grow a lot of J. diphylla and dubia, and they resent being messed with.
Enjoy it as it is, unless you have a reason to mess with it!
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You feeling "liverish" tonight Ron? ;D
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Possibly... but a little thick too? ??? ??? ??? ???
Explain ??? ??? Oh OK :-[. I didn't mean to be "liverish". Apologies/ :( :(
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My Jeffersonia seeds never germinate - in pots nor self sown
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5 years old seedling....
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My Jeffersonia seeds never germinate - in pots nor self sown
Seeds of both species have germinated this spring. They were sown straight from the capsule.
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I think fresh may be the answer for seed. I collect my own of dubia, but true to type, procrastinate as I do with much in my life so that I have literally never had a seed germinate. But year before last a west coast Canadian Forumist send me seed of both dubia and diphylla, fresh from his garden and the former germinated well, nice little plants now. Diphylla hasn't come up though. Same probably applies to Ranzania japonica. Swedish fresh seed has germinated very well.
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Yes Lesley, I think sowing fresh seed is the key, then keeping them just moist enough and kept shaded all summer, and exposed to the elements over winter, and they germinate like cress.
Here's a photo of a Korean form of J. dubia, it differs from the form typically in cultivation by having red ovaries and dark stamens. I have a flat of seedlings of this one coming along too.
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That red ovary makes for a very attractive plant. It looks quite smiley. :)
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Mark, Korean form of J. dubia is nice!.
Also, I did not know but Ronm mentions blue form of J. diphylla.
Are Korean form of J. Dubia and/or blue form of J. Diphylla available in the US?
Koko
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Koko, I suspect that Ron's mention of blue and white diphylla was a slip, and dubia was probably what he meant. J. diphylla, as far as I know, is always a white-flowered species, not sure if there are even pink-tinged forms.
Just checking Google images, there are sometimes plants of J. dubia that come up mislabeled as diphylla. By the way, here's a photo of a lovely purple-leaf form of J. dubia:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/spellboundgarden/7037459361/
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Thanks Mark. A slip is what it was :-[ :-[. Sorry Koko if I misled you. I meant to type " Jeffersonia dubia ( both blue and white forms )" but diphylla slipped in! :-[
I've edited my original post.
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I wonders about somthing...i got some Jeffersonia dubia 'alba' flowering here for the first time...really nice but the flowers are atleast twice as big as normal blue-ish one.....anyone with the same experience?....Jonny
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Jonny, I think that Cyril Lafong exhibits a plant of the alba form that has great big flowers.... I will see what photos might be in the Forum.
Yes, found photos of his plant here : http://www.srgc.org.uk/shows/forrest2010/edinburgh.pdf .. you will see they are superb big flowers. Perhaps always good feature of the white form?
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Thanks Maggie :) Thats exactly the size i got...does anyone got the alba in small flowers i would gladly trade one.....Jonny
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Yes, it seems, looking around the forum pix that the alba form seen is usually one with fine large flowers.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3329.msg87913#msg87913 "Lampwick" John
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7011.msg195503;topicseen#msg195503 vanother pic of Cyril's form
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3345.msg86153#msg86153
Plant in Chesterfield show... big flowers again : http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3345.msg86153#msg86153
John Saxton's plant at an East Lancs show...
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1639.msg41104#msg41104
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Well, well, well, looks like Jeffersonia dubia alba certainly exists on the other side of the ocean and it is just BEAUTIFUL!!
Mark, we just will have to keep drooling, lusting and looking.
Thank you everyone for the information.
Maggi, you are just amazing. Much quicker and accurate than me googling!
Koko
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I can send you some seeds when they ripe koko........And thanks Maggie...you are the tresure ;)
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Maggi, you are just amazing. Much quicker and accurate than me googling!
Koko
;D ;D I'd have been faster but I stopped for some cake! ;)
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Jonny,
That will be great. Thank you.
Maggi,
I hope that was a tasty one. Of course I understand that there are priorities.
Koko
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Maggi,
I hope that was a tasty one. Of course I understand that there are priorities.
Koko
It was delicious.... soft sponge, jam and cream filling, marzipan coating and half chocolate covered 8)
bouht for very little money from a shop- no effort involved at all to enjoy it ;D
Thank you Koko, for your understanding... such thoughtfulness from Forumists is much appreciated. :)
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Jeffersonia dubia has always been one of my most favourite plants, way back from first seeing a picture of it in Anna Griffiths book on Alpines. But I never realised that it could vary like those pictures of Mark's; really fascinating. Does it compete with the cake though? We don't seem to have shops like that round here!
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Jeffersonia dubia is one of those plants that I cannot sow but which occasionally sows itself. This probably means that the seed is very ephemerical and needs an autumn-winter-spriong sequence. I find it difficult to establish. It sulks in the beginning but after a few years it is going strong.
Göte
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I'm re-activating this thread to post a link to the NARGS Forum, where Rick has given an update on his attempts to divide the glorious plant he showed here last year :
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=181.msg22983#msg22983 (http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=181.msg22983#msg22983)
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I have two forms, light and dark flowered, with flowering seedlings around them in the open ground. I know that the advice is to prick seedlings out 'as soon as they're big enough to handle'. What about seedlings of 2-3 years old?
I want to distribute the dark form, ideally by potting up in May. Is that feasable?
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I had so many flats of Jeffersonia dubia seedlings that I didn't get a chance to plant them all out, even after I gave a couple flats away for our local NARGS chapter plant auction. This is a second year flat of seedlings; I'm hoping that they are as easy to separate out and plant as 1st year seedlings; they're still small so I don't think there will be any difficulty. The roots on Jeffersonia grow into a wide mass, so if seed-grown plants get much older than 2-3 yrs, I imagine they become more difficult to separate without disturbing them.