Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Sinchets on March 15, 2012, 09:51:45 PM
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Galanthus ikariae flowering now that the snow has melted in this part of the garden.
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Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.
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Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.
But the seed was from Greece, Martin.
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Simon, it'll be easier to be sure when the flower is open wider, but this looks more like woronowii than ikariae.
But the seed was from Greece, Martin.
Simon, could you post another photo when the flower is wider open? The mark is almost hidden, but what is visible looks like a smallish mark of the woronowii type rather than the large mark typical of ikariae. Also the leaves look rather bright green for ikariae and the flower shape looks more woronowii than typical ikariae. But I could be wrong, especially if the seed was collected in the distribution area for ikariae.
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Still waiting for the flower to open more. What is the accepted range for G.ikariae these days and is it as variable in the amount of green it has inside as other Galanthus are?
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Martin - Is the marking the most reliable characteristic to distinguish these two species? The leaf colour & sheen are difficult to judge here when the books are so vague on these matters. It wasn't until flowering that most - but not all - of the ikariae Latifolius here were confirmed as woronowiis. Chromosome counts?
And in Canada we find this in Fraser's Thimble 2012 catalogue:
"Galanthus ikariae ( G.worownii) Another larger snowdrop similar to elwesii but leaves are a shiny green. Ht.8".
$5.40ea for 10 or $26.50 for 50"
Is there a hair-pulling icon?
[attach=1]
johnw
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Woronowii is quite variable, ikariae less so. The most obvious difference is in the size of the mark. In ikariae the (generally flat-topped) mark virtually always covers at least two thirds of the inner segment, so is very large and bold. In woronowii the mark is much smaller, a thin u-shape around the sinus or a thicker u-shape with a flat top. The flower shape is also quite different. Ikariae generally has long outers, much longer than the inners, tending to be quite pointed in shape, a flower form not seen in any other species. Woronowii flowers tend to be more "normal" snowdrop shape, inners almost as long as the outers, outers more rounded. The leaves of ikariae are generally much less shiny than those of woronowii, although that can be variable. When you've seen a lot of ikariae you tend to get an eye for them and generally can tell them apart from woronowii at a glance. But of course the variation in the wild may well be greater than in cultivation, and I wouldn't be surprised if wild populations exist that may be less easy to tell apart.
Not sure what the exact latest distribution patterns are, Simon, but woronowii is generally speaking northern Turkey up into Russia, with the Greek Aegean area being ikariae.
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It didn't open today, because it wasn't warm enough here- but a quick peek inside reveals that the inner petals are less than half as long as the outers- but there are only 2 small green spots on each inner petal. As I know it is from Greece I guess this means that G.ikariae is as variable in its markings as G.nivalis for example.
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It didn't open today, because it wasn't warm enough here- but a quick peek inside reveals that the inner petals are less than half as long as the outers- but there are only 2 small green spots on each inner petal. As I know it is from Greece I guess this means that G.ikariae is as variable in its markings as G.nivalis for example.
In wild populations so far observed botanists have found the typical large ikariae marking to be pretty uniform, but of course that doesn't mean there won't be exceptions. Would be very interested to see a photo when it does open up enough to see the mark and the flower shape properly.
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I have to say, Simon, the leaves at first glance did look ikariae-like even though they're quite a bright, shiny green. The slight puckering on the leaf surfaces is typical of ikariae.
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The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.
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The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.
Well if the seed those come from was definitely wild collected in Greece (no possibility of a mix up during packeting, sowing or labelling? Collected by you or someone else?) then I'm not sure what to make of them. Certainly don't look like typical ikariae. The flowers are more woronowii shaped, the inners aren't as short in proportion to the outers as in typical ikariae, and the marks are very much like woronowii and nothing like typical ikariae.
Here's a link to Janet Lecore's "Judy's Snowdrops" website with some good photos of typical ikariae for comparison.
http://www.judyssnowdrops.co.uk/Plant_Profiles/species/ikariae/ikariae.htm
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We did the collecting so we know it is from Greece ;)
I checked out your link and see what you mean about the marking- so the question is can G.ikariae be expected to less variable in the wild in its markings than other Galanthus are? Are the forms in cultivation at the moment only representative of a few forms in the wild?
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The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.
Could these be the first ikariae cultivars? Maybe no one has looked at the variation in wild populations of G. ikaraie
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We did the collecting so we know it is from Greece ;)
I checked out your link and see what you mean about the marking- so the question is can G.ikariae be expected to less variable in the wild in its markings than other Galanthus are? Are the forms in cultivation at the moment only representative of a few forms in the wild?
I don't have any personal knowledge of ikariae in the wild, but various botanists have investigated a fair number of wild ikariae populations and found them not to be particularly variable. Since as a species its distribution is quite localised, rather than widespread like the distribution of some other galanthus, that's probably not surprising. As I said before, that of course doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions. Were the plants that the seed was collected from definitely growing wild, not in or near built-up areas where they might have been planted as bought bulbs? I assume they were clearly wild-growing bulbs, but just thought I'd ask the question to rule out any possibility of them being an introduction.
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Yes, the locality really was in the middle of nowhere. Its main companion plants were Cyclamen with some Sternbergia nearby. My main experience of Greece is that people are far more likely to leave an old fridge or mattress in the middle of nowhere than a Galanthus - my apologies to any Greek forumists who aren't avid flytippers. ;)
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Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?
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Johnw---Gorgeous leucojum cultivar--I will be looking for that one. Your clump of 'Flore Pleno' is amazing. Mine are fine but they just don't grow and multiply like that.
I don't know if this adds anything but here are two photos of my G. woronowii that look just like the G. ikariae you are discussing. In the US, G. woronowii is always sold as another name for G. ikariae like they are the same plant. I know they are not and have always been told that all the plants in the US are G. woronowii. Carolyn
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I don't know if this adds anything but here are two photos of my G. woronowii that look just like the G. ikariae you are discussing. In the US, G. woronowii is always sold as another name for G. ikariae like they are the same plant. I know they are not and have always been told that all the plants in the US are G. woronowii. Carolyn
Carolyn - Our woronowiis were received long ago as ikariae Latifolius and Latifolius.
I wonder if woronowii and ikariae might someday be reduced to one species. And I have to wonder just how strong the argument for separation is. ::)
Simon - Might be an idea to send Aaron Davis a picture of your plant with the collection data. It could, as we say, upset some applecarts
johnw
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Howdy All,
I'm seeing this topic for the first time, as I expand my forum forays into the Galanthus section......
Just to add something from afar..... my woronowii look like the top of this page, and my ikariae look like Carolyn's. I had read that woronowii and ikariae are now lumped together, but given how extremely different the ones I have are, I'd always wondered about that. The floral proportions and the look of the leaves are very different between the two that I have under those names. ???
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Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?
It was on one of the islands. Maybe just a new floral finding for G.woronowii in Greece ;)
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I wonder if woronowii and ikariae might someday be reduced to one species. And I have to wonder just how strong the argument for separation is. ::)
johnw
Doesn't seem likely, John. Here's an extract from Ben Zonneveld's DNA study of galanthus:
Due to superficial morphological similarities
G. woronowii has been considered to
represent a synonym (e.g Artjushenko 1966,
Brickell 1984) or a subspecies (Stern 1956: as
G. ikariae Baker subsp. latifolius Stern) of
G. ikariae. More recently it has been shown
that these two species are distinct, on the
basis of anatomical (Davis and Barnett
1997), morphological and ecogeographical
evidence (Davis 1999: 165–169). Their more
distant relationship is confirmed by the nuclear
DNA values, G. ikariae having a nearly 13 pg
higher nuclear DNA content.
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Looks like Simon's snowdrops are either an atypical form of Ikariae (the leaves do show ikariae-like puckering) or woronowii a very long way away from where it should be. Given the provenance on a Greek island, I guess they're more likely to be an unusual form of ikariae. Ben Zonneveld's study also shows that different wild collections of ikariae all have a very narrow range of DNA content - while other species tend to show a wider range - which along with the very localised distribution helps to explain why most populations are so similar morphologically with little difference in flower shape and marking.
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here some words from me ....
I have visit a lot of populations in the wild from G.ikariae + G.snogerupii + G.woronowii -so I really dont understand why so many people have problems distinguish ....I have written it here some times before
A.Davis has make it very clear in his book " The Genus Galanthus" ( page 160 ) :
"A further means of telling these species apart is by looking at transverse sections of the leaves, since the leaf anatomy of each species is quite different. When a leaf of G. ikariae is sectioned and examined under a microscope, large air spaces are evident across the width of the leaf, and the mesophyll cells ( the cells making up the bulk of the leaf tissue ) are loosley arranged with spaces between them. The large air spaces can be clearly seen with either the naked eye or a x 10 hand lens when the leaf is cut in half with a knife or pair of scissors."
I can say not so much to the plants from Simon ...a plant without a location is (for me ) a bad plant !
By my trips on the Cyclades ( Ikaria,Andros,Naxos) I have seen a lot of flowers - but never such like Simons plant
Populations of G.ikariae ( Cyclades) and G.woronowii ( Black Sea Coast ) are really far away ....
Simon wrote that he see this plants in the middle of nowhere ( together with old fridges) ....maybe anybody has brought his waste there from his garden ?
A other idea comes in my mind : we should not forget that many parts of Greece ( special the islands ) was long times occupatet from turkish people ....sometimes until 300 years - so a lot can happens .....
To this other point with the flowering time from G.ikariae + G.snogerupii :
This is in my eyes only a result of the mild temperatures in England ( or other areas with mild temperatures)
The plants flowering in here habitats from middle of February until end of March - I have asked local peoples ,the locations are partly high from 300 - 700 m altitude ...but I found G.snogerupii also on 840 m !!!
The late flowering time from Simon's plants looks for me also more like G.woronowii ....
Hans
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Hans- I think you misunderstood my posts:
1) I do have a location for these Galanthus ikariae.
2) They were not found near a dump site but in a pure woodland habitat with other wild plants. There were no habitations nearby and it seems unlikely that someone would randomly establish a population of G.woronowii in the middle of nowhere just for a giggle. Anyone who has ever seen a typical Greek garden will understand that they are not the most species diverse gardens in the wild. The idea that Galanthus woronowii would be brought from the far side of Turkey to be grown in a country, which already has its own Galanthus species also seems rather bizarre.
3) Last week these Galanthus were all under 1 metre of snow- as such I think they can be forgiven their late flowering!
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I'm really at a loss here, over the ikariae/wornowii Simon. What you say about them suggests a very atypical form of ikariae but when I go back and look at the photos they still look like woronowii. The leaf anatomy test that Hans suggests would settle the question one way or the other. I didn't initially suggest it because I was convinced they were woronowii, plus people don't always want to cut up the leaves of their bulbs, especially if they only have one or two. But the diagnostic test Hans describes would settle the matter. I've never done it, but the air spaces are supposed to be very obvious, large enough to insert a pin into. Maybe you could try it with one leaf, cutting not too far down the leaf so as to not deprive the bulb of too much leafage?
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Simon ,
1 ) Yes- you have the location ...( I would never ask for a precise location - but I have no problem to tell it I have found it p.e. on this or this island )
What I would say : I can not ask for the ID of a plant if I not tell where it grows ( in case I have it )
This remeber me on the old times when I read first descriptions of Cacti and the was only written Bolivia ....
2 ) Sorry - I have understand you found it in area of waste
3 ) I have tried only to find a explanation how this plants comes to Greece - have you ever seen graveyards in turkey ? ...there grows a lot of plants !
And go to some greek islands ....so you will see many Sternbergia and Amaryllis belladonna in gardens !
Please dont forget that greek peoples use Galanthus for medicine ....
Hans
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Martin ,
I agree with you - why not cut one leaf ...and so it is easy to know what it is
We need no DNA test or anything ....
Hans
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We have a picture of the leaf surface showing puckering on the upper surface and ribbing below.
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Simon ,
please turn the leaf to the cut side ( from side view ) and look if you see the wholes
Hans
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Simon ,
1 ) Yes- you have the location ...( I would never ask for a precise location - but I have no problem to tell it I have found it p.e. on this or this island )
What I would say : I can not ask for the ID of a plant if I not tell where it grows ( in case I have it )
This remeber me on the old times when I read first descriptions of Cacti and the was only written Bolivia ....
2 ) Sorry - I have understand you found it in area of waste
3 ) I have tried only to find a explanation how this plants comes to Greece - have you ever seen graveyards in turkey ? ...there grows a lot of plants !
And go to some greek islands ....so you will see many Sternbergia and Amaryllis belladonna in gardens !
Please dont forget that greek peoples use Galanthus for medicine ....
Hans
Hans, yes Galanthus are also used in Bulgaria for medicine, but they use Bulgarian native species not one from NE Turkey. The habitat where the plants were seen was deciduous woodland with Cyclamen- it did not looked disturbed it certainly was not near any habitation or graveyards or rubbish dumps.
We know the exact location and plan to return at some point to ascertain variability there.
We cannot see holes other than those caused by the ribbing- but what does this tell us? G.wornowii where it shouldn't be? Variability in Galanthus ikariae? Or a new species of Galanthus?
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Simon / Martin / Hans
Terribly exciting don't you think? A disjunct population of woronowii or possibly a ikariae that doesn't fit the description. Nothing gives greater pleasure than shaking up the taxonomists. Now how will you proceed Simon?
I'm going out to cut some leaves of my ikariae Latifolius/woronowiis. Haven't been brave enough to date.
johnw
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John- you will need the eyes of a hawk and a steady hand. Chris [who should be planting potatoes] has been sat for the last 30minutes sticking a needle into holes in leaves- productive???
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Am I missing something here? Is it not "necessary" (helpful?) to take a macro shot of the cut end of the leaf?
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Handy online notes about the various Galanthus species : http://citesbulbs.myspecies.info/content/spm?page=2
Some references on the subject from the forum:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1599.0 Hans
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=280.0 Hans
http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5698.0 Dima ..... I will contact Dima to see if he can share his studies of these with us.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8339.1997.tb01423.x/abstract
The leaf anatomy of the genus Galanthus L. (Amaryllidaceae J. St.-Hil.)
AARON P. DAVIS, JOHN R. BARNETT - for those without the book and access to these online sources ( or willing to pay!)
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Simon, if it's ikariae then there should be holes in the transverse section caused by large air tubes running up and down inside the leaf, rather than just gaps on the outside caused by ribbing. As Maggi says, a close-up photo of the cut across the leaf showing the inside of the leaf in transverse section would help.
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If there are no air-tube holes inside the leaf running up and down the length of the leaf then the one thing we can say is that it's not ikariae as it's currently identified and described by the botanists. Which, as you say, Simon, means it's woronowii or another species/sub-species.
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The Galanthus ikariae is now open- there are now 2 flowering plants- 1 of which has two green dots and the other more of a horseshoe shaped marking.
Galanthus woronowii
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Well I won't be cutting any leaves on the ikariae true here as the bulb has failed to appear.
Ditto Magnet true and S. Arnott; rats damn.
johnw
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Thanks Dima! :-*
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We tried for a macro shot- it didn't work. We didn't find any macro shots online either to compare with- or shots of the leaf surface of G.ikariae or G.woronowii to compare with. Is G.woronowii also puckered on its upper surface?
If as Dima says it is G.woronowii can he offer an explanation as to why it is growing in Greece?
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I am also assuming that the cross sections in Dima's post are taken at the base of the leaf- judging from the size of the midveins in some of the slides. As can be seen from the photos I posted the other day our plants at the moment only have a very small leaf rosette. We will need to wait for them to extend more before we can make this kind of cross section. Even then saying x10 works is pushing it a little.
So just because the green spot is variable on these plants from Greece, which also have puckered leaves, the consensus is it has to be a species from a location in NE Turkey and Caucasus? ???
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I cut leaves on the ikariae Latifolius and Latifolius we had received long ago. No air tubes on any of them. You have to act quickly as the edges start to weep almost immediately.
It will be interesting to hear what Dima has to say about why Simon's plant should be in Greece.
johnw
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Simon, all I'm saying is it's either a very atypical ikariae or irkariae sub species, so atypical that the botanists who've studied galanthus would not recognise it as ikariae, or it's another species, most likely woronowii, in which case what it was doing in Greece, growing there naturally or introduced at some point is a matter for debate.
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If it's woronowii, whether it's truly growing wild in Greece or introduced could only be ascertained by looking for more of the same in that locality and its surrounds.
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I agree with you Martin regarding atypical G.ikariae, or a new subspecies of this, personally I would prefer to think that all of the populations of G.ikariae have not been found yet- if this is a new population then who knows what range of forms are there which are not represented by the 2 pictures I have posted.
As I said, having been to the site where it is from, I cannot see how it could be in this location as an introduction. I have been to Greece many times and can recognise sites which have plants, because they are former rubbish dumps, graveyards or habitations. This site has no possibility for any of these it is a steep north facing limestone slope with mature oak woodland and a diverse woodland flora- something one would expect to see as a stable climatic climax community for this area. It was not agricultural land or even regenerated forest. It was not near a village and not near a road.
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Folks, I've been trying to split off the ikariae posts to keep them more easily found.... it's a fiddly job, please bear with me.
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Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?
It was on one of the islands. Maybe just a new floral finding for G.woronowii in Greece ;)
Simon, but the island - you could name it at least? Andros, Naxos or Skyros? ;)
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I would prefer to think that all of the populations of G.ikariae have not been found yet- if this is a new population then who knows what range of forms are there which are not represented by the 2 pictures I have posted.
I have to agree with you Simon, I think there are an awful lot of snowdrops in the wild just waiting to be discovered :D
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Simon, was this on one of the islands or on the mainland?
It was on one of the islands. Maybe just a new floral finding for G.woronowii in Greece ;)
Simon, but the island - you could name it at least? Andros, Naxos or Skyros? ;)
I am sure you will understand my reluctance in naming a new location- but it does not come from any of the above islands. As such I would prefer to return to the location to confirm it before I say any more.
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:'(
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We will make an announcement as soon as we have been back.
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"Galanthus ikariae is endemic to the Aegean Islands of Greece. Since its discovery
on the island of Ikaria it has been collected from three other Aegean islands, namely
Andros, Naxos, and Skyros, and further collections have been made on Ikaria.
Recently, there have been rumours of G. ikariae growing in western Crete, although
these sightings have not been confirmed".
p. 43, in:
Davis A. P. The genus Galanthus – Snowdrops in the Wild / M. Bishop, A. P. Davis, J. Grimshaw // Snowdrops. A monograph of cultivated Galanthus. – Cheltenham : Griffin Press, 2001. – Chapt. 2. – P. 9–63.
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We will make an announcement as soon as we have been back.
Wonderful Simon and let's hope you have made a very important discovery.
johnw
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Page 162 of Davies makes for an interesting read. Has anyone looked at leaf cross-sections of their (now sunken) ssp. snogerupiis?
My only verified ikariae received last autumn failed to appear in its pot. I probably gave it a drink to early in the autumn, now I could use one.
johnw - +6c
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Page 162 of Davies makes for an interesting read. Has anyone looked at leaf cross-sections of their (now sunken) ssp. snogerupiis?
My only verified ikariae received last autumn failed to appear in its pot. I probably gave it a drink to early in the autumn, now I could use one.
johnw - +6c
yes, John, the leaves of both subssp are now cut and merged in a spirit for a month to be denser for section and staining