Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: Maren on March 09, 2012, 11:47:44 PM
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Hi,
as I walked into my greenhouse on Thursday, I was greeted by a pot on the floor. It soon became clear that some animal had invaded the house and created havoc, throwing pots here and there, pulling pleiones out of pots, eating the flowers and buds and trashing the place. The pictures below tell the story.
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I immediately thought: rats!! and went to the local garden centre to buy all the ammunition required, traps and poisons. These were soon deployed. All the loose pseudobulbs were potted again with great delicacy because many had already developed a good root system. Pots and labels were straightened and fingers crossed.
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Even a Cymbidium was chewed right through the new pseudobulb and leaves. Chewed pleione flowers and buds everywhere.
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Today, sadly, it was the same as the day before, pots and pleiones everywhere, more things chewed and eaten - and me with a broken heart.
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All these plants had been nurtured and pampered for the London Orchid Show next week. Well, they're not going and neither will I. It's enough to make one want to chuck it all in, sell the lot and travel the world. I'm seriously thinking about it. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
PS. The only good thing today was a talk given by Ian, Maggi's husband, at the AGS Chiltern branch. The talk was very interesting, beautifully constructed, engaging and informative. And it was nice to have a brief chat with Ian - put a face to a name. Thank you, Ian.
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Maren - This is horrendous and I understand your state of mind. Could it have been a squirrel? I have had mice on one occasion decimate my cyclamen but I can't recall pots being wrenched from the flats as I see there. Are the windows and door screened or do you think it is hiding somewhere in there? Do catch the creature whatever it is. Perhaps a live trap too with peanut butter. Best of luck.
johnw
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Maren, I imagine well what you have felt seeing that :'( Hope you will find and catch the culprit very soon
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Sorry to see this Maren. I have had some similar experiences and it is surprising how quickly you can put things back together again, although your collection is rather larger than mine.
I have learned to screen all open doors and windows now. The only thing this hasn't kept out so far was the man (would-be house burglar I'm pretty sure) I found sleeping on the greenhouse floor one Winter morning two years ago. He heard the heaters and thought it would be a warm bed for the night >:(
All the best getting it back in order as quickly as poss.
Alex
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Maren, what an absolutely dreadful thing to happen at any time, but just before the show it's devestating. My every sympathy, hopefully there is plenty that can be rescued and nurtured. Most importantly is that you find the perpetrator and stop it happening again.
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Maren,
I feel for you - such a shock on both days.
I'd be inclines to think that whtever got into your greenhouse was pretty big to cause that amount of damage and toss the pots around like that.
Is it possible it could have been a deer?
Regards,
David
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Maren,what a terrible nightmare .I feel with you,and hope you,ll quickly forget this nasty event.
Wim
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I was offline quite "early" last night so I just found out about this when I spoke to Ian on the phone this morning and he told me of this horrible attack that Maren's pleione's have suffered. We are both distressed to think of all that damage done and hopes for the flower show ruined.
Most important thing now is to catch the culprit(s?) and try to find how it happened.
Deeply disappointing, Maren, but you'll get through it. :-*
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What a dreadful shame !! :'( :'(
Don't give up Maren and get that evil culprit asap !
All the best getting things in place again !
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How upsetting.
I had a Robin do some damage trying to get out last year and found it dead on the floor which to be honest made me feel very sorry for the poor little thing even if it had damaged some plants.
You obviously have had something far larger and as previously mentioned I'd go along with the squirrel theory. You can get humane traps but legally in the UK once you catch a grey squirrel you are not allowed to release it back in to the wild. The Kania 2000 trap is probably your best bet.
Did think it may have been a cat but if it's been eating plants you can rule it out.
Chin up and move forward.
David
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Maren
I've had the odd loss in both the garden and pots but never anything like that.
I can only imagine how you felt when you first entered the greenhouse.
My guess would also be a squirrel.
Don't even think of giving up.
Graham
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Just thinking maybe it was a Magpie that got in there?
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Thank you all for your kind thoughts and advice. Ian B thinks I may have a rat's nest under one of the benches. When I'm not there, the doors are always locked and the side vents shut, the roof vent is open about 10 cm. Whatever critter it is, it must have come in when I was there, doors wide open.
I haven't been at the nursery today, been busy giving orchid advice at one of the local garden centre's orchid days, re-potting phalaenopsis and answering questions like: "I've had this (???) orchid for a year. How do I make it flower again?" It passed the time and stopped me brooding (and crying my eyes out), and they gave me a very nice, large oncidium in return.
Tomorrow I'll look for the rat's nest. It means clearing out all the stuff that's kept under the benches, masses of it, compost, moss, pots, seed trays.....with nowhere else to go. But needs must. And now that I don't have to worry about getting ready for the show any more (sob sob), I have no excuse. - Mañana............ :'(
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Oh Maren, I to feel for you. How frustrating after all your hard work, to see a seasons joy spoiled. However the Pleione bug will see you overcome this I am sure.
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Maren just read this post. So sorry to see all the disruption in your greenhouse, you must be so upset. I do hope you find the culprit. I really feel for you.
Angie :)
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Rats can climb easily and don't need much of a hole to squeeze
through.
I have heavy hardware cloth (wire screening) covering every tiny
entrance into my house and greenhouse - places where pipes,
electric conduits etc go through the walls.
I've never seen such wholesale mayhem. My rats are generally
tidy as they excavate bulbs from pots, eat off flower buds, etc.
I wonder if something was chasing them, or trying to get into
the greenhouse to kill them.
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Hi,
thanks for your kindness. I still don't know what it was, am thinking of installing a night vision video camera to try to find out.
Ian suggested that the invader may have been tempted by the slug pellets I had sprinkled generously. He may have a point there, all the pellets had gone and the mayhem could have been a consequence of someone snuffling around for the pellets.
When I went today, it was worse.
- Pots turned over: 75;
- pseudobulbs on their sides on top of pots: 220;
- pseudobulbs roots in the air: 56
- flowers eaten: 17
- buds bitten off: 47 and so on.
I am spending all my time re-potting these poor pleiones. No more slug pellets, though, if that's what the invaders are coming for.
Two of the mouse traps had tripped, but nothing in them. The rat trap was untouched. All the rat poison sprinkled on the gangway had disappeared. But no droppings anywhere. I wish I could move the pleiones out of that greenhouse, but I don't have anywhere else to put them.
I have cleared out everything underneath the benches, but there was no rat nest anywhere. Some mouse holes though...Traps have been re-primed. Fingers crossed.
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May be sheets covering pots until you find the dead culprits...With all they have eaten ::)
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Oh Maren, that's so sad and horrible - all your effort and lots of time you spent growing and repotting these bulbs. :'( :-[
Maybe you can dust some flour onto the floor to get traces of the animal responsible for this mess?
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Maybe you can dust some flour onto the floor to get traces of the animal responsible for this mess?
Clever idea.
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It sounds like a rat; if you're using rat bait, best to use the most expensive one you can find (I use one called Neosorexa Gold), my experience is that rats are pretty much immune to any lesser poisons.
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I would be moving into my greenhouse with my campbed. Give whatever is coming a big fright when he sees me with a hammer in my hand. Only joking I couldn't hit anything with a hammer, yet again if it was my pleoines I might just ;D
Good idea the flour, would have never ave thought of that.
Angie :)
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Just another thought.
If some beast likes the slug pellets that much you could put some into a deep bucket (add a big stone so it can't turn over the bucket) and place it so that the animal might get (fall) in but won't be able to climb out again. Of course you have to check the next morning just in case useful and innocent animals fall in.
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It sounds like a rat; if you're using rat bait, best to use the most expensive one you can find (I use one called Neosorexa Gold), my experience is that rats are pretty much immune to any lesser poisons.
Malcolm - I see Neosorexa Gold Pro Rat and Mouse Bait contains Contains 0.005% difenacoum. We have found the best to be Ratak and contains Brodifacoum Technical (0.005%). Sounds rather similar and works very well indeed.
Maren - Which kind of slug pellets did they eat? If they contain metaldehyde that should have done the trick by now.
From the internet - 1/2 cup peanut butter
3 crushed vitamin D tablets
Roll in oats, place inside a 2-inch cardboard tube and bury in a tunnel or where damage is occurring. This creates a calcium deficiency and so our unfavorable rodents perish!
Also a few well-placed glue boards along walls or benches might help.
johnw
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Hmmm, lots of good ideas here. In reply:
The slug pellets were the 'bird friendly' kind called Growing Success Advanced Slug Killer. Being animal friendly, they probably had no effect on the rat.
I've thought of the flour and have packed a bag for tomorrow.
Rat poison used is called Ratak.
I'll try the glue boards and will bait the rat traps with the desirable slug pellets.
Have made an appointment to see someone about installing a night surveillance camera.
Wish me luck.
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Good luck Maren!
When I had the outbreak of mice in the greenhouse I found they have been living in a huge pot of Rhododendron Fragrantissimum. They were entering through the drainage hole as the pot was on an angled piece of floor and one edge of the pot was sitting on a 2x2 to level it out. A whole family was in there and still have no idea how they got onto the 4ft high benches. Many of the cyclamen came back though they took quite some time to make new growth buds.
The lesson we learned: Annually put Ratak bait down in inaccessible places in September and repeat as it is eaten - greenhouse, basement and the garage (upstairs and downstairs) which is heated to 5c. Once the really cold weather comes we check periodically and reapply if any disappears.
I hope you can solve this one and that peace of mind will return in short order.
johnw
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Maren - just caught up with this. What a horrible story and I really feel for you and hope you catch the culprit soon!
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Maren
Do a quick search for Swann outback Camera. Far cheaper than getting something installed as it's not just an IR Camera that's needed but also a recorder. This little unit is both.
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Hi Maren,
I'm very sorry for what happened and I wish you good luck with your hunt!
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Hi Maren,
If it is rats you might want to put a radio in your greenhouse. a guy who came to help me get rid of some rats that had gotten into my cellar said that rats didn't like noise. My rats was a little too housetrained to be bothered, but if yours are a little more shy that might leave until you have cleaned out their nest or whatever and have traps and poison in place.
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So many wonderful ideas, I am beginning to cheer up a little, although when I went to the nursery, there was more 'disorder' and it took me 5 hours to re-pot everything. But it was less than the day before. Maybe the critter(s) are weakening.
Dave, had a quote for £850 for a night vision camera and bits. I don't think so. I saw the Swann advertised and liked it, but there is nobody who can tell me what it can do and how it works e.g. does it take pictures or video; does it work without artificial light in the dark? Lots more questions.
I keep all my little pots (7x7x8cm) in flats and today I covered 20 flats with clear plastic domes I had lying about. Trouble is, they are not tall enough for the flowers, but they offer some protection while the buds are short. Better than nothing. If I am going to lose the flowers, too bad, but I don't want to lose the growing point on a really healthy and happy pseudobulb.
Sprinkled more bait and poison today and hoping to catch something in my many traps.
Oh by the way, I put sprinkled the flour at the entrances (there are two doors) this morning and by afternoon there were some paw prints that looked like a cat's. But I never saw it and it could not get in at night.
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So the footprints were larger than these of a rat (with rats the tail is always visible as a line between the foot prints)?
Could it be a marten which might climb in through the roof as well? But this one would most likely not chew buds and flowers.
Do you happen to have racoons over there, Maren? They can make quite a mess and climb well.
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Hi Maren
Don't know how good the quality will be but yes it has a row of infra red lights at the from that should provide enough light in complete darkness for a greenhouse. They sell them in Maplins.
http://www.swann.com/s/products/view/?product=1063
If you have power in the greenhouse you could by a DVR recorder off Ebay and outside camera (I know it's inside but better to be safe). They are not hard to set up but the Outback system looks simple and runs off batteries and a card you can remove and play on your PC. It can be set for video or still pictures at intervals of your choice and has built in motion detector to start it going.
David
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Maren,
I hope you soon find out what animal is causing this!
I could imagine a rat being able to do some damage (more than a mouse for sure), but really throwing pots to the ground and almost turning them upside down seems a bit odd?
In our greenhouse we've had mice eat pollen of Cymbidium flowers in the past and many years ago when I wanted to grow palms trees and I had 100 nice big seeds of the Chilean wine palm (Jubaea chilensis) in a bag in the greenhouse waiting to be sown... let us just say I never had to get round to it as none were left behind: rats discovered this form of prepackaged food and dragged it all off.
Ever since then we apply poisoned bait especially in wintertime but some blocks do remain throughout the year just to protect the plants.
Blackbirds can be a 'nuisance' as well in the greenhouse... especially when they learn how to fly, but of course by then we no longer have to worry about the Pleiones ;)
The only animal which does not seem to cause damage to the plants in our greenhouse is our (almost) resident colony of wrens.
You just have to watch out when watering the plants for 'small flying bombs' that just dash off in every direction when you reach the spot where they are hiding. ;D
Kenneth.
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While all of this is terrible it will be fascinating to find out what is doing this damage. Rats have a distinctive scent
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Maren - I suppose a cat may have by chance wandered in. Here is a track site if it helps:
http://www.wildwoodtracking.com/mammals/index.html (http://www.wildwoodtracking.com/mammals/index.html)
There may be one for the UK.
johnw
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Oh Maren,
I am SO SORRY!
Looking at your pictures brought tears to my eyes, a number of times I have been woken up from a dead sleep with nightmares of creatures getting into the greenhouses. Your pictures brought it to life for me. I will be thinking of you over the days to come, be strong it will get better.
Well no point trying to sleep after seeing this....
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I don't think I've had rat in my greenhouse, but I've had them in other parts of the house and there's a nagging doubt when I look at the pictures and read about the damage. Rats don't do that much damage, turn pots over and that sort of thing. I've had birds in my greenhouse and they can uproot many plants and knock over the odd pot, but not as much as they've done in your greenhouse. I've frequently had cats enjoying the warmth of the greenhouse and although it is anoying when they sleep on a plant and flatten it completely, they have never tried to eat my orchids. The only thing I've experienced that gave a result similar to yours was when a ferret had chased a bird into the greenhouse. There was quite a few turned over pots then, but again, nothing eaten (Exept the bird, judging from the amount of feathers all over hte place). I have red squirrels in the garden, nesting next to the greenhouse, but they don't enter the greenhouse. It is indeed strange. I certainly hope you catch or scare away the culprit very quickly.
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A friend once had a grey squirrel visit his alpine house and it destroyed some dionysia cushions. Would not surprise me if this were your culprit too.
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Lots of food for thought there, thank you all for your contributions.
Today, there was evidence of light pilfering and disturbance of plants, but no overturned pots. Could it be that the critter dined so effectively on the generously provided pellets that it stayed away with a belly ache?
Still nothing in the many traps and no footprints in the flour. Everything is closed and locked when I'm not there, so the critter must have entered through a tunnel. I keep clearing out under the benches.
This is what it looked like on Friday, day 2 of the calamity. It is not something I wish to see again.
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Maren, I just read this post and I feel very sorry for you :( This must be the ultimate plant-growers nightmare.. I hope you'll be able to get things right without too much of a loss.
From your pictures I notice that the culprit didn't touch the larger pots and trays. It must have been looking for something (surely food) under the pots and not the plants themselves? The little pots are easier to lift....
Good luck!
Hans
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Maren, just a thought but have you checked amongst your pots and in hidden corners for a toad? I once had a large toad in a lean-too glasshouse which was jumping around on small pots, knocking them all over the place until I caught it. A hungry large toad would, I think, be quite capable of overturning small pots when hunting for slugs etc. Flowers and pseudobulbs could be being damaged by the scrabbling rather than being eaten (not sure if a starving toad would try to eat pseudobulbs in desperation but it might).
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This morning Mr Rat went to heaven. I discovered the critter lying across a few Pleione formosana and it looked quite dead. But when I tried to move it, it wriggled and I nearly jumped out of my skin. It was very lethargic, the poison must have done its work, and I helped it on its way. No need for it to suffer any more. So let's hope that that was the end of it it. It must have sneaked in when I left the doors open during the day while I was working there.
Still a bit of mouse disturbance, they like to knock over the pseudobulbs as they run across the pots. But as soon as the pleiones have some decent roots, that will no longer happen, and I shall be back to normal.
So this damsel is going to the ball after all. Having cancelled my participation in the London Orchid show, I received a call from the nice man from the RHS, saying I should come anyway and sell a few bits, no need to make a display if my flowers have been eaten. I daresay he has a bit of a job filling the big black hole where my display would have been, but it was very nice of him to offer and I'll thank him when I set up my little stall tomorrow in the RHS Lawrence Hall in London.
Thank you all for your kindness, it helped a great deal. :D :D :D :D :-* :-* :-*
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Thats great that you are up and running again Maren. We are so very pleased you didn't give it all up. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Great news Maren.
Now go and enjoy yourself for a couple of days :)
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Maren,
so glad to hear that you've caught the culprit.
Have a great w/e and forget about this episode!
David
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Yes, definitely something to draw a line under. But I've put a reminder in my diary to put out rat poison on the 1st March forever. ;) ;)
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Maren,
Very glad you got rid of this problem.
I hope you have a very good time at the show and sell lots of plants.
jan
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Enjoy the show Maren and I'm glad you've solved the problem!
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Maren - What a relief for you, and the rest of us I might add.
Hope life returns to normal and so happy to hear you are off to the Show.
johnw
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Good news Maren ;) I'm glad for you :D
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Hope it was just one rat and not two chasing each other!
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Maren glad to hear that you have solved the mystery. We were all waiting to find out who done it.
Angie :)
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Thank you all for your concern, it was a great help.
Mind you, if as Dave says, there were two chasing each other......well, the other one probably dined at the same table and is on its way to Nirwana. ;) ;) ;)
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BRAVO MAREN !!!
He came back and this time you had it , but beware there may be to others.
It is many a rat .
You can put traps around , outside of your greenhouse .
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Maren
Glad you caught it but not a nice sight to see entering the greenhouse and then having to deal with it. I would have put a few pellets in to it before picking it up. A couple of traps on the outside is not a bad idea.
Around the base of the rats tail there is a Pleione which appears to have a flowering shoot coming from where the bulbils grow. Is this correct and if so what Pleione is it?
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An interesting observation David and something that I've noticed on a few of my own bulbs, particularly ones which have grown completely buried in the compost.
Like everyone else I've followed the "rat"saga with interest and am glad that Maren is going to the London show, if only because I'm going too. Watch out wallet there are pleione for sale!
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Steve
I've had new growth start before but never a flowering shoot. Last year I also had the main shoots die off on a Rakata and the two 'bulbils' produced rooted and grew larger than the original flowering size bulb!
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David,
if you lose a new growth on a pleione to rot then the subsequent bulbils produced can root and get very big indeed if there are no other growths.
I've encouraged this in the past by burying the bulb deeper than usual and produced bulbils that are almost flowering size,
David
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Yes I usually push some moss around the sides of the bulb if the bulbils are showing signs of rooting. I've also had normal shoots appear once or twice but never a flowering one from there.
Strange growth usually seems to occur when a bulb is stressed after losing it's shoots and rotting roots but it's clearly not the case with Marens above as the bulb looks to be doing exceptionally well. Maybe it's rat manure :D
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Hi,
it's Pleione formosana, an exceptionally vigorous clone. Shall I give it the clonal name of "Ratty"? Perhaps better not.
I have quite a few of these doing strange things. The one you were pointing to had 4 shoots, quite a few have bulbils already forming on the top, which is quite early, usually happens after flowering.
If it's all the same with you, let's close the rodent chapter for now and carry on our conversation in the Pleione 2012 place. I hate having to look at that furry creature again, gives me the creeps. I will, of course, re-open this if the whole clan comes to attend his funeral. ;) ;) ;) I suppose I shall have to bury the critter. My friend says that if you leave the corpse in the open, scavenging birds like the Red Kite will feed on it and die of rat poisoning. We don't want that.