Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: JoshY46013 on February 29, 2012, 08:13:40 PM
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Hi Guys :)
I was really curious about wintering over Galanthus grown in pots, I would love to grow a few bulbs in pots.
Josh
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You're in the USA, Josh... what is your local climate like?
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I am USDA Zone 6, we usually get to -17c and sometimes lower. We get lots of precipitation all year round as well.
Today is almost 21c, we have had very screwy weather this winter!
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Not sure where to place this so here seems as good a place as anywhere.
Seems that Carolyn has a happy customer.......
http://pamsenglishcottagegarden.blogspot.com/
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Not sure where to place this so here seems as good a place as anywhere.
Seems that Carolyn has a happy customer.......
http://pamsenglishcottagegarden.blogspot.com/
Yeah! Good one!
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Not sure where to place this so here seems as good a place as anywhere.
Seems that Carolyn has a happy customer.......
http://pamsenglishcottagegarden.blogspot.com/
Sean, You are so nice to post this. Thanks, Carolyn
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Josh:
I grow mine in pots in Washington state which is a milder climate then yours, but the key for both of us is to keep the pots from freezing. Once the growing root tips are killed they don't re-grow. Other delayed roots from the basal plate may, but the plant will be weaker.
You can plunge them for the winter in soil, sand, etc., and cover with a mulch or cold frame to moderate temperature fluctuations. When they show growth or the temperatures warm towards normal timing, uncover and enjoy.
If you can't plunge, as I can't, into a garage they go until the freeze passes by. A greenhouse that won't freeze would work, too, but I would still plunge the pots in sand to provide a bit more protect.
When I was first started growing snowdrops in pots I was told by one of our "experts" that "Galanthus don't like being in pots!" That was neither encouraging nor true, having seen many snowdrops at AGS and Scottish shows in the UK. Now I have nearly 150 pots and they do fine with proper protection from freezes and narcissus fly. I use a soil mix of with good organic matter, bark/wood fines, and pumice for draining: about 2:2:1. E.B. Stone's Cactus mix is a very good premixed brand. I never let them go completely dry in summer, storing in light shade or under benches once dormant.
Depending on the cultivar or species vigor, I re-pot every other year. They are feed with liquid fish or kelp fertilizer once flowering commences. Prior to that they get an occasional half strength dose of Miracle-gro for roses or similar when the nose poke through the soil.
Have fun!
Jim
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You are obviously getting to grips with the culture of snowdrops in pots, Jim.... what measures do you take to protect them against Narcissus Fly?
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You are obviously getting to grips with the culture of snowdrops in pots, Jim.... what measures do you take to protect them against Narcissus Fly?
I move the pots into dappled or light shade, usually by mid to late March. That about the time the fly species emerge here. They don't like shade - apparently (I say with caution) needing sun on the eggs to hatch so the grublet can then nose down the along the leaves into the bulb.
If I can't find shade or am getting nervous, I cover with a spun white, lightweight, agricultural row cover called Remay. It's used over crops to keep many insects out, while letting light and rain through. However if you have NBF already in a bulb, you've trapped it in paradise. This is why I re-pot at least every other year and inspect every new bulb I get, looking for nibbled basal plates. I also give a gentle but firm squeeze to the bulb to make sure it's firm and solid like a good onion. If infested, the grub and it's frass (polite word for grub manure) oozes out the top of the bulb instantly. Yuck! Into the trash instantly. Tears shed later.
Cold frames covered with window screen made covers, or little hoop houses of Remay work very well, too, if one has no shade at all.
Jim
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Thanks Jim. I think it is worth taking these precautions.... terribly hard to see a precious bulb turned to smush. :(
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Thanks Jim. I think it is worth taking these precautions.... terribly hard to see a precious bulb turned to smush. :(
Not precisely galanthus but when I started to pot up my Hippeastrums I had narcissus fly in three of them >:( They had been outside with Dahlias and such stuff in the summer to fatten up and spent the winter in the basement.
A question: I grow some snowdrops fairly well outside in the ground - mostly nivalis. They are frozen solid every year. I should imagine they got at least -10°C at the roots this year since we had no snow. No harm whatsoever. What would be the difference to a pot potted plant?
Göte.
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A question: I grow some snowdrops fairly well outside in the ground - mostly nivalis. They are frozen solid every year. I should imagine they got at least -10°C at the roots this year since we had no snow. No harm whatsoever. What would be the difference to a pot potted plant?
Göte.
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From my experience in Alaska and now here, and discussing the same topic with soil scientists and plant pathologists, this is what I understand is the difference: Plants in the ground in cold climates harden off to deep dormancy, something that rarely happens in pots which are always exposed to air temperature fluctuations. Plants in the ground have more a stable insulating environment.
Our soil in AK froze to 10-15' deep (15' - that's about 4.75 meters?- is how deep we buried water and sewer lines). Many non native plants thrived there including meconopsis - even in pots if buried in snow then covered with a foot of hay. Yet many native plants left out in a pots died. From dehydration, I'm told, and the fluctuation in temperatures.
A plant in a pot is like a person constantly being woken up during the night. No true dormancy, so the plant exhausts its food supply. That's one of the problems trying to grow high alpines which enjoy full bright sun that burns us in the Alps, yet we must grow them in some shade at lower levels to keep their roots cool. Even in Alaska many sea-level "alpines" found at 66 degrees latitude wouldn't grow at 500' elevation at 62 degrees latitude because of lower light levels and inconsistent snow cover at the latter latitude. They didn't stay dormant.
Basically, it's just that the earth is a better insulator then the air.
Hope that's of some help.
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"The Narcissus fly not like shade" - rubbish. I've lost bulbs to them in full shade cold troughs.
"The Narcissus fly doesnt fly high" - rubbish. I've seen them fly over the house after I try to kill 'em and miss.
I can tell you they do love to sunbathe. In my garden they like to sit on Colchicum leaves, rocks on the rockery and the edge of raised beds.
Their favourite plant for nectar is hardy Geraniums. Such a good feeling to quickly fold the petals around the fly and squeeze - evil LOL
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Mark - Jim is more than 6 degrees of latitude south of you and I am 10+. Perhaps the NBF behaves differently as you go south.
johnw
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A question: I grow some snowdrops fairly well outside in the ground - mostly nivalis. They are frozen solid every year. I should imagine they got at least -10°C at the roots this year since we had no snow. No harm whatsoever. What would be the difference to a pot potted plant? Göte.
Göte - I would think -10c would be unusually low for soil temperature even without snowcover. As mentioned before we have plenty of cold weather with no snowcover here in NS and our native Tsuga canadensis is reported to be only root hardy to -7c. Nurseries here store their potted nursery stock in hoop houses covered in white poly and sealed tightly. That way temperature descends very slowly and rarely fluctuates widely. One year a nurseryman friend had stored his magnolias (and they are not very root hardy at all - perhaps -5c) in such houses. One house had a 50cm hole in the poly and he lost most of the magnolias in that house whilst the ones in the other house were fine. If they had been outside above ground they'd have been dead for Xmas. In record winters they lose all their stored magnolias and yet pots sunk into the ground will survive.
I remember a hort researcher once telling me that the ground temps are surprisingly high if the ground is moist but the temp can drop severely if the ground is very dry. 1990/91 was such a winter here, no precipitation from January to March and damage was amazing on certain perennials south to Virginia as I recall. Even peonies were damaged, crocosmias were wiped out.
I guess tha damage in UK alpine houses in the past two years confirms the fact that even hardy potted bulbs cannot withstand minor cold. But why is still a mystery to me. Rapid dessication or whatever.... ::)
Hope your wonderous garden pulls through okay.
johnw
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"The Narcissus fly not like shade" - rubbish. I've lost bulbs to them in full shade cold troughs.
"The Narcissus fly doesnt fly high" - rubbish. I've seen them fly over the house after I try to kill 'em and miss.
I can tell you they do love to sunbathe. In my garden they like to sit on Colchicum leaves, rocks on the rockery and the edge of raised beds.
Their favourite plant for nectar is hardy Geraniums. Such a good feeling to quickly fold the petals around the fly and squeeze - evil LOL
I can only quote my experiences, Mark (and I did qualify the shade remark, as new bugs and pests are arriving each year here as our climate "adjusts". I've not heard from any of us in the Seattle/Bellevue area that grow galanthus or narcissus in numbers to have had any attacks of NBF in shade - and the fly is all over the west side of the state. We have 100 of acres in cultivation north of here. Between NBF and basal rot, the industry's in trouble. At homes, huge plantings of narcissus in full sun are wiped out or made blind in one year, while those in shade 20 feet away are not bothered. I consul customers all the time about this at the nursery.
Don't know about the flying high comment. Wasn't mine that I can see.
I know on the forum there's reference to different species of NBF, which surprised me when I started reading the forum. I personally was only aware of one species here. Perhaps there are different species in different continents, countries?
You've intrigued me enough to research this. Is our NBF (looks like "new best friend") indigenous or introduced?
Goodness knows a friend of mine did her PhD on weevils and discovered at least 8 species new to the area and 2 new to science. We all gasped and sighed at Rock Garden meeting when she told us. Oh, well, we are in line for a mega earthquake in the next 50 to 100 years, so "they" tell us - and volcanoes. I might just make a quake in 50 years.
Jim
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A question: I grow some snowdrops fairly well outside in the ground - mostly nivalis. They are frozen solid every year. I should imagine they got at least -10°C at the roots this year since we had no snow. No harm whatsoever. What would be the difference to a pot potted plant? Göte.
Göte - I would think -10c would be unusually low for soil temperature even without snowcover. . . .
I remember a hort researcher once telling me that the ground temps are surprisingly high if the ground is moist but the temp can drop severely if the ground is very dry. 1990/91 was such a winter here, no precipitation from January to March and damage was amazing on certain perennials south to Virginia as I recall. Even peonies were damaged, crocosmias were wiped out.
I guess tha damage in UK alpine houses in the past two years confirms the fact that even hardy potted bulbs cannot withstand minor cold. But why is still a mystery to me. Rapid dessication or whatever.... ::)
johnw
Gote:
I agree with John added. He made it clearer. Nature, thankfully, still holds some mysteries.
Jim
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I remember that Jim brought some gorgeous snowdrops to our chapter meeting last spring! :)
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Mark - Jim is more than 6 degrees of latitude south of you and I am 10+. Perhaps the NBF behaves differently as you go south.
johnw
Quite so: a critter that cannot cope with shade would soon die out in these parts!
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Thank you both for several good answers.
If the ground is frozen to say 20 cm (Our building code assumes up to a meter) the temperature at that level is zero °C. If the temperature at soil surface is -17°C as we had a couple of weeks ago, I would assume the temperature at Galanthus root level to be around - 10°C. Frozen soil is hardly a good insulator and there must be a temperature gradient from the surface and downwards. (otherwise frost would be uable to penetrate - there would be no heat transport upwards.)
The degree of dormacy makes sense to me as does the stability of the temperature.
Cheers
Göte
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Göte - This may seem like a stupid question coming from a Canadian who should know all there is to know about snow and ice. So from
one two who ankle skate, at normal atmospheric pressure just how cold can ice get? Let's say at a minimum air temperature of -25c.
johnw
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Göte - This may seem like a stupid question coming from a Canadian who should know all there is to know about snow and ice. So from one two who ankle skate, at normal atmospheric pressure just how cold can ice get? Let's say at a minimum air temperature of -25c.
johnw
Going by what Göte said earlier John the ice at the surface would be -25c with a temperature profile steadily rising the deeper you go. By Götes calculation this would make the temerature at the roots of Galanthus to be around -18c which is pretty damn cold. I guess it would also depend on the length of time the air stays at that temperature as to the level of penetration, but I'm sure Göte will correct me if I'm wrong.
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Sean - These extreme temps are rare here and usually only briefly at night. However it is not uncommon to go to -15c most winters and the very occassionally a -15c high. So given Tsuga canadensis is root hardy to only -7c the process must be very slow indeed, they do prefer ravines that are moist and a bit shady and that would further slow the process. But it does grow in much colder areas which might see better snow cover the winter long than here on the coast.
Must keep an eye out for -40c ice cubes in gin and tonic season. ;)
johnw
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John I would also assume the process to be fairly slow. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that ice can get as low as nearly absolute zero although I wouldn't recommend icecubes at that temperature for your G and T's ;)
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Ice can olmost reach zero Kelvin so this is not a limiting factor. Studie on buildings built directly on a slab of concrete in a Swedish climate shows that equilibrium is reached after some two years = 700 days. The distance from the slab down, sideways to the outside and up to the soil surface is some 15 meter. meaning that it takes 700/1500 days per cm to reach equilibrium. That is 2cm/day. I can have a couple of weeks when the temperature never is higher than -10°C. Thus equilibrium down to some 30 cm.
I have no explanation to why tsuga roots survive but I would question the data. Tsuga seedlings would never survive in a harsh climate if the cannot stand colder than -6°C in the winter. My own tsugas have survived since the thirties. Maybe they would be in trouble at -6°F ??
Göte (who still has the soil frozen)
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I could calculate this but it would take me a day.
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Göte
Do you grow magnolias in your garden?
Here water pipes must go down 1.25 m (approx. 4 feet). Geothermal slinky/coil pipes with refrigerant for house heating at a friend's were down approx. 2.5m (approx. 7 feet) as I recall and gave her a 17.2c house temperature. Her soil was quite heavy but the installer's stated temp of 17.2 seemed awfully high to me. Her neighbors have their coils at the bottom of the lake and they had a reading of close to 15c, this too seemed high to me.
johnw
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Göte
Do you grow magnolias in your garden?
Here water pipes must go down 1.25 m (approx. 4 feet). Geothermal slinky/coil pipes with refrigerant for house heating at a friend's were down approx. 2.5m (approx. 7 feet) as I recall and gave her a 17.2c house temperature. Her soil was quite heavy but the installer's stated temp of 17.2 seemed awfully high to me. Her neighbors have their coils at the bottom of the lake and they had a reading of close to 15c, this too seemed high to me.
johnw
Magnolia kobus, stellata and sieboldii. We have about the same required depths.
17.2 and 15 both seem awfully high. I have 9 at approximately 4 m (a well) and that is rather constant over the year. A lake with ice on top has a bottom temperature of 4. There is no way a lake can freeze over if the temperature is 17 anywhere. The density depends upon the temperature in such a way that warmer water would go to the top and melt the ice.
Göte
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Göte - I just checked with my friend and indeed her neighbors do have a side run into the lake but only for cooling in summer; they were so happy with it they put in another system, their main supply for heating, in their yard aside the lake.
Your magnolias are the hardiest ones I see. Here it seems denudata is one of the most temperamental and soon shows its presence even as an understock. After many years, I presume when it gets a very large root system, some selections of it do start to behave. M. liliiflora 'O'Neil' is okay but the other liliifloras can be damaged in very cold winters - and yet crossed with tender ones like sprengeri 'Diva' it gives hardy hybrids as does denudata. Makes little sense.
johnw
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Summer temperatures are of course quite different animal. I have measured 27°C in July. That year was unusually warm and I measured it in a shallow bay.
Normally we have 18-22 in the warmest time of the year.
I will try to remember to put down temperature probes in the fall. Hopefully I will have some results next winter.
However, We usually have unusual weather. ;D
My ground thawing at last Horray! :) :) :)
Göte
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"We usually have unusual weather."
Göte
Not here, we only have abnormal winters. ;)
Inland lakes here can get get quite warm in summer. I have seen +27c sea water in protected bays. This is only in the upper layer where one swims and this is when one might catch a glimpse of a sunfish. The upper sea temperature can change dramatically from day to day depending on the wind direction. Usually August, Sept and sometimes October are best for ocean swimming.
It would seem that Jim's comment on the stability of outdoor soil temperature and its gradually decrease as opposed to pots seems like the most reasonable explanation.
johnw - circa +1c
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"We usually have unusual weather."
Göte
Not here, we only have abnormal winters. ;)
johnw - circa +1c
OK let me rephrase it "It is normal to have abnormal weather" ;D ;D ;D
Galanthus, Leucojum vernum, Eranthis hiemalis, Hepatica nobilis and Helleborus Thibetanus in flower.
Göte
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OK let me rephrase it "It is normal to have abnormal weather" ;D ;D ;D
Absolutely and here too in the winter. But it is abnormal to have a normal Spring. We never have warm springs, they are always wet and raw and very, very slow = normal. That being said I guess we are having an abnormal spring this year. It will however be normal next week and that will be chilly. ::)
Hope this is clear.
The Hepaticas are in flower here as well.
johnw
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Forgot Anemone altaica and Scilla mischz?hqzana or whatever it is called.
Anemone altaica is a gem. Absolutely winter hardy and flowers very early. One of my clones was tricked into flowering in December by the mild winter. It took -17° with no snow cover and is still flowering.
Pulmonaria rubra is also starting.
Göte
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Why would G. snogerupii seed sown 20 February 2012 be sprouting now? Not a complaint mind you.
johnw
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A few years ago I was given a snowdrop as "Marion's double hybrid" the Marion being Marion Saxton from Christchurch, she having grown snowdrops for very many years and it is quite likely this is a hybrid from among her own collection. I did wonder though if it is a named form and recognisable to anyone in which case could I have a name for it please.
Two pics much the same and it's the first time it has flowered. It seems very distinctive.
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Nothing springs to mind Lesley, I'd stick with 'Marion's double hybrid' or 'Lopsided Lil' :D nicely marked though, perhaps someone else recognizes it?
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Just having a look in some 'drop pots.... G. 'Primrose Warburg' has got a lovely large set of growing roots.... is this normal for July? ::)
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My impression is that snowdrops (and other similar bulbs) are primed for a hot dry summer but will put down roots if the soil moisture level (possibly also the temperature) suggests that it is a worthwhile enterprise. So what you are seeing is as normal as the summer weather we have had this year. You had better make sure your 'Primrose Warburg' does not dry out if the weather takes a turn for the better.
I have also been doing a bit of re-potting and I haven't found a snowdrop with roots yet. Some daffodils, yes. In other years I have found snowdrops with roots in August.
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You had better make sure your 'Primrose Warburg' does not dry out if the weather takes a turn for the better.
Quite so... though I doubt if, here, that is much of a danger. :-X Would be in the likes of the Northern Isles, where they are having a drought- though the roots would have been shrivelled there by now.
It's hard to "win " this season ! :P
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We had an extremely wet summer last year with little sun until September. I repotted in August and saw no roots at all nor in the garden.
Everything is out of whack this year. This Cyrtanthus brachyscyphus has been in flower non-stop since January 2011, a very poor picture from last night. Lachenalias are sprouting madly despite being bone dry as recommended.
johnw - +19c at 10:39, sunny & parched.
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Stop Press: 'Angelique' had roots, although just a few.
Halifax, Nova Scotia enjoys warm summers even when wet so it's probably a combination of rain and cool temperatures that stimulates root growth.
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Stop Press: 'Angelique' had roots, although just a few.
Halifax, Nova Scotia enjoys warm summers even when wet so it's probably a combination of rain and cool temperatures that stimulates root growth.
re: Halifax Certainly warmer by Aberdeen standards; on the immediate coast where I am summers are all too brief. You don't have to go far inland though to get into the warm summer areas. By eastern North American standards it is relatively cool here, I spent a few summers in Boston and it is sweltering there. It seems to me the south of England also has better summers than here; a bad year to be saying that!
Having said that this has been a warm summer that started in early July and dry too with relatively little fog. When we have a wet summer it's cool, if warm it's dry and only a hurricane will break the drought. Last summer we barely reached 20c and it was extremely wet from mid-May until mid-September. We dug snowdrops in August and I expected to see root growth, the roots that were there appeared to be ones made the previous autumn as they quickly died off and re-rooted in late autumn. With so little soil here and mineral at that the trees gobble up most of the moisture even in wet summers.
johnw
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Well I have re-pooted a few hundred and found some of the roots from this year still extant in most of them, but on the whole no new growth yet.