Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 12:59:06 AM

Title: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 12:59:06 AM
Dare I kick off the 2012 Dactylorhiza season now?

The first two photos are 5 days apart

Photo 3 shows some plants in my orchid bed

Photos 4 and 5 are two plants that seeded in to the centre of a Pulsatilla
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Peter Maguire on February 29, 2012, 11:17:05 AM
Nice flowers Mark  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 11:31:58 AM
I can imagine them also.

I'm worried about how far on my Dactylorhizas are. My guess is they would be much safer underground or with tight nosed showing rather than being in growth. All of mine except one or two are no longer in the tight 'nose' stage
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Peter Maguire on February 29, 2012, 03:13:26 PM
My Dactylorhizas in pots were under the bench in the greenhouse with the cypripediums to keep frost-free.
I was horrified to look under there at the weekend and find D coccinnea x foliosa already shooting up, and slightly etiolated at about 3-4cms in the dark conditions.
It's outside now!  :-\
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on February 29, 2012, 04:20:57 PM
Hi Mark,
I agree with you. Maybe you can cloche them or throw some mulch over them if the weather forecast says frost???
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 04:37:48 PM
I'll keep that in mind Maren.

I'm looking for a supplier of green-winged orchids including pale forms
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: sottych on February 29, 2012, 05:58:18 PM
Hello Marc,
I just saw your site , photos Dactylorhizas are really beautiful , do you sell plants ?

Cordially
Christian , France
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
Sorry Christian I do not.

This is what Christian has seen http://www.marksgardenplants.com/dactylorhizas.htm (http://www.marksgardenplants.com/dactylorhizas.htm)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on February 29, 2012, 07:02:42 PM
Fabulous, Mark, I'm green with envy. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: angie on February 29, 2012, 08:26:57 PM
My Dactylorhizas in pots were under the bench in the greenhouse with the cypripediums to keep frost-free.
I was horrified to look under there at the weekend and find D coccinnea x foliosa already shooting up, and slightly etiolated at about 3-4cms in the dark conditions.
It's outside now!  :-\

Peter my cypripediums are outside in a cold frame and some have got shoots over an inch already. Not sure if they are really early but a bit worried about frosts.

Mark your pictures of your Dactylorhizas are lovely.

Angie  :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Darren on February 29, 2012, 08:39:13 PM
My Dactylorhizas in pots were under the bench in the greenhouse with the cypripediums to keep frost-free.
I was horrified to look under there at the weekend and find D coccinnea x foliosa already shooting up, and slightly etiolated at about 3-4cms in the dark conditions.
It's outside now!  :-\

Peter my cypripediums are outside in a cold frame and some have got shoots over an inch already. Not sure if they are really early but a bit worried about frosts.

Mark your pictures of your Dactylorhizas are lovely.

Angie  :)

Peter will be able to answer better than me Angie. I've one or two shoots visible too. The only one I have which I worry about is fasciolatum which seems unable to withstand even the slightest frost once in growth.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Peter Maguire on February 29, 2012, 10:32:24 PM
The only Cypripedium that's showing above the ground with me is a Cyp formosanum which has a a bud tightly formed at ground level. I'm sure that this species would not take any frost so it's staying in the alpine house for now (although with the warm weather, the alpine house door has been open for two days and covered in shading - it's on the south side).
All the other Cyps are still underground, although they're still there - this is the time of year that I repot them (and I know I'm probably in a minority of one here), so I'm busy repotting and counting growing points at present; it's the only systematic gardening record that I keep, being much too disorganised for any more than this. 
I've found that most Cyps increase their numbers of growing points slowly to begin with, up to about 4/5 (and this is where most losses occur), then suddenly they begin to bulk up much more quickly. Mind you the number of growing points/buds does not always equal the number of flowers - my large Cyp formosanum (not the one currently above ground) which is a pot with two clones in it had 58 buds last year - and five flowers.  :(

Angie, if your Cyps are that far advanced, I'd certainly be protecting them from frost this early in the year.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 10:56:44 PM
Maren those huge groups are in Cally Gardens
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on February 29, 2012, 10:57:37 PM
Hello Peter,

you are not the only one who re-pots cypripediums at this time of year. This is when all the shows start and it's good to know what to expect. - I'll put future comments into the Cypripedium topic. ;) ;) ;)

Oh Mark, I thought they were yours. Where are Cally Gardens?

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on February 29, 2012, 11:06:49 PM
Peter

I also re-pot mine now and as to formosanum it sits in a frame all winter and seems hardy. Its shoots are well above ground now and I have a number of other species/hybrids just coming through
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on February 29, 2012, 11:15:55 PM
Cally Gardens is in Scotland http://www.callygardens.co.uk/ (http://www.callygardens.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Peter Maguire on March 01, 2012, 09:04:43 AM
Quote
you are not the only one who re-pots cypripediums at this time of year
Quote
I also re-pot mine now
Thanks Maren, Tony; it's good to know that I'm in illustrious company.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on March 01, 2012, 10:14:37 AM
Maren

Cally Gardens is at Castle Douglas in Scotland

http://www.callygardens.co.uk/
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on March 01, 2012, 12:29:46 PM
Thank you for the Cally Gardens info. Next time I'm in Scotland, I'll definitely go and visit. ;)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on March 01, 2012, 11:55:41 PM
Dactylorhizas in my garden have been poking their noses up for more than a week now.  Some are about 4 inches high already.  This is in spite of temperatures down to -4C and highs some days only to +4C.  Most are D. fuchsii hybrids who have mixed with D. maculata, D. majalis and "D. sp.".

They seem to love hostas -- today I dug out 23 seedlings from around hostas in a very dry area just beyond the eaves of the house.  I wanted to get them moved before the ground was too dry to dig.  There were many more than I expected.

More rain/snow mix is forecast for tonight.



Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Torsten Junker on March 02, 2012, 07:52:06 AM
I've got several different Dactys up now, the biggest being x grandis at ~2 inches tall, but even most of that group are still yet to emerge.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 28, 2012, 04:28:15 PM
I'm going to put a big moan in here

I bought "flowering sized/FS" Dactylorhizas from three nurseries this month. Two UK and on in Europe.

One supplier has Dactylorhizas with lovely large tubers with excellent roots.

The other two are, so far, a disappointment. Their FS plants are very small with tiny noses. I just cant see how these can be FS plants. Time will tell and I will report back

I'll take comparrison photos this weekend showing the plants I bought, how they compare to each other and how they compare to my own flowering sized plants
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on March 28, 2012, 04:42:01 PM
I think you'd find that each nursery would tell you that FS is FIRST SIZE, not 'flowering size'.

Of course, the obvious conclusion most draw from seeing FS is to think 'flowering size' but I think if you poke around most catalogues and lists, you'll see different.  :P :-\

 And  that is not just for Dacts and orchids, but other bulbs too.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 28, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
As far as I'm concerned sizes are as follows - Mature - has already flowered at least once, FS to me is flowering size, FS-1 needs another seasons growth before flowering and FS-2 needs two seasons growth before flowering, etc.

If grown 'In Vitro' some nurseries will go by time/years out of flask which is not very reliable when it comes to flowering as sizes can vary a great deal and it's guesswork.

Mark - I have seen Dacts flower from small tubers but only time will tell and it will be interesting to see the sizes you have bought as what they believed to be flowering size, or what you thought you were buying as flowering size.

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on March 28, 2012, 05:06:10 PM
Quote
Mature - has already flowered at least once, FS to me is flowering size, FS-1 needs another seasons growth before flowering and FS-2 needs two seasons growth before flowering, etc.
Now that is sensible.... but I don't think everybody uses  that?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 28, 2012, 05:23:35 PM
Gulp! I would never have thought FS meant first size. Isnt it good i brought up this subject.

Ive already told one person not to place an order.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 29, 2012, 11:54:57 AM
Quote
Mature - has already flowered at least once, FS to me is flowering size, FS-1 needs another seasons growth before flowering and FS-2 needs two seasons growth before flowering, etc.
Now that is sensible.... but I don't think everybody uses  that?

I have always used it and seen it used were Orchids are concerned but as for other plants I can't tell you.

Not sure what you would expect to get if a plant was labelled as 'first size' as it's pretty meaningless unless you know what first size relates to as I assume there would be a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th size, etc. Would first size be the mature plant or the seedling?

If I bought something as FS I would expect it to be flowering size unless there were some explanatory notes saying otherwise.

Mark - I would email the people you bought the tubers from and ask out of curiosity what they mean by the term FS. Or send me their details and I will e-mail them as they might smell a rat if they know you have already bought from them.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on March 29, 2012, 12:02:56 PM
First size as  one year from flowering.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 29, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
First size as  one year from flowering.

Put me out of my misery Maggi as I've looked at it from different angles and now feel very stupid as I can't see for the life of me any logical explanation why 'FS/first size' would mean 'one year from flowering' ???. Obviously missing something and now it's bugging me :-\
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on March 29, 2012, 08:31:19 PM
Sorry! Didn't mean to cause bother  :-X  I just have this recollection of reading these terms in the past in various lists and thinking how silly it was. It wasfrom years ago and I remember being greatly irritated when I questioned it and was told the FS was first size, which meant one year from being flowering size.
Seemed utterly ridiculous to me then and it does now. I cannot give any photgraphic proof now. There may be old catalogues with that in somewhere here, but I'm not going to risk paper avalanches by seeking them out. :-\
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 30, 2012, 12:36:49 PM
I checked with one of the nurseries. Their plants are F and FS. No reply to what F means
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 30, 2012, 12:39:58 PM
Like an expectant father, I guess, I'm happy to see my variegated Dactylorhiza is now above ground.

While weeding just now I found an amazing spotty leaved Dactylorhiza in a place where I have never had Dactylorhizas. Photo later. Lots of seedlings coming up so I need to be careful when pulling weeds. I think I'll mark them all with a white label.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 30, 2012, 01:12:04 PM
I checked with one of the nurseries. Their plants are F and FS. No reply to what F means

At a guess F - Flowered, although M - Mature would be better.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on March 30, 2012, 08:33:14 PM
Like an expectant father, I guess, I'm happy to see my variegated Dactylorhiza is now above ground.
Thank heavens!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 30, 2012, 11:19:55 PM
The reply is .... F also means flowering sized but "because the plant has been moved it might not flower this year" which I say is rubbish. Surely the flower is already set for this year?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 30, 2012, 11:24:03 PM
Some Dactylorhizas on my rockery

1st - a seedling
2nd - rescued from a garden
3rd - rescued from the same garden

and a seedling in a trough that I didnt notice last year
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 31, 2012, 12:18:36 AM
The reply is .... F also means flowering sized but "because the plant has been moved it might not flower this year" which I say is rubbish. Surely the flower is already set for this year?

I agree with you, complete garbage as it would still be an FS plant as flowering size does not guarantee flowering anyway so why come up with F. How to confuse the hell out of people or make it up as you go along.

Mark - just wondering what the first two pictures are as there is very little spotting on the leaves.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 31, 2012, 12:46:11 AM
Mark - just wondering what the first two pictures are as there is very little spotting on the leaves.

A self sown open pollinated Dactylorhiza seedling on my rockery. I'm sure it flowered last year but I just looked for photos and cant find any

I need to label all Dactylorhiza in my garden si I can keep track of them
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on March 31, 2012, 08:32:43 PM
spotty babies are appearing all over my garden especially in pots.

Bought some Dactylorhizas of Ian Christie today and I definitely feel ripped off .....
.... by the two nurseries I'm not happy with. Ian's plants are brilliant, large and look good.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on March 31, 2012, 11:43:33 PM
Mark can you show some sizes of the ones you are not happy with? I'm not asking you to name and shame the suppliers (which you could) but it may give others a guide as to what is not acceptable size wise. Maybe show tuber Ian C next to tuber X.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:00:38 AM
Photos tomorrow hopefully
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:06:12 PM
Dactylorhiza from Aberconwy at Loughborough show
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:09:01 PM
Dactylorhiza 'Bee's Pink' - Ulster show sales table

Does anyone know this orchid? I cant find information on the internet
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
Dactylorhizas from Ian Christie at the Ulster show
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:13:36 PM
and now two flowering sized Dactylorhizas from an orchid nursery
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 01, 2012, 12:41:56 PM
and three "flowering sized" from another orchid nursery

edited - forgot to take a photo.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on April 01, 2012, 01:44:19 PM
Mark

Dact F tuber looks very poor quality and will more than likely die (sorry) as the tuber looks rotting and infected (plant away from the rest of you stock or destroy it, I would as you have too many nice ones to risk it). As for size I'd say both F and F2 are one year out of flask as I removed some last year and they are about the same size as those. Can't really believe anyone would try and pass them off as FS (flowering Size) and If I'd bought these they would have been returned as I'd have thought a genuine mistake had been made or April 1st had come early.

The last set of pictures look a bit better but again I'd say they need another good seasons minimum growth to reach flowering size but they can flower from small plants and at least those look like healthy leaves (FS,FS3). FS2 looks like the strong sun may have damaged the new leaf growth but it is certainly not flowering size.

The pictures of plants you picked up at shows are obviously of much better quality and size.


Dacts can flower from three years in good conditions but I find after removing from flask they take on average 4-5yrs.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on April 01, 2012, 06:38:01 PM
Mark

Are they species or hybrids? I ask as I have a number of species that are about that size and they do flower, and they are quite a few years old now. 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on April 01, 2012, 07:10:20 PM
Mark

Are they species or hybrids? I ask as I have a number of species that are about that size and they do flower, and they are quite a few years old now. 

Neil

I'm amazed you have them this size and they flower?



Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 01, 2012, 09:30:28 PM
and now two flowering sized Dactylorhizas from an orchid nursery
What a pity!
During the last 2 years, I observed that especially Dactylorhiza-bulbs labeled "Flowering sized" become smaller and smaller when you buy it. I guess this might be the case especially if you buy later in the season when all the fat bulbs have already been sold.
Where did you buy these, Mark?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Jeff Hutchings on April 01, 2012, 09:56:29 PM
As some of the dactylorhiza mentioned were bought from me I thought I would comment. I buy most of my stock from one breeder who assures me that the tubers have had two years full growth before being sold. These have never and will never be the same size as the limited numbers sold by some nurseries that are "offsets" from mature tubers. I also suspect that the latter often have "foliosa" or "elata" blood in them which is why the tubers are so large.

Also, the tubers of many of the species never grow very large; even after a number of years. Last year I got some fuchsii hybrids that flowered in 7 cm pots suddenly producing flower spikes 20 cm tall from very small tubers. A tuber one year out of flask will usually not have a divided tuber but simply a thin carrot like root.

The major supplier uses a low organic compost and I find that by the time the plants reach me the cream roots and tubers tend to go brown and become patchy brow when planted into the high organic mix I use.

I think there are a number of reasons why the size of dactylorhizas offered has reduced. The summer weather has tended to make the plants go dormant earlier in the past two summers and more important there are far more seed raised plants offered now.

Jeff

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 02, 2012, 07:59:09 AM
Thanks for the info, Jeff!
So the estimation that a plant is FS derives from the age of a plant, not from its size - right?
The more changeable weather has brought problems to all of us (Janis Ruksans might write books about that) because it is much more difficult today to provide stable and suitable conditions for cultivation of many plants.
Therefore I think it would be better to take full account of that and make some adaptions:
If I am going to buy a flowering sized plant, my expectations of the product-quality plays a bigger role than the price. Of course the price is also a criterion for my decision where to buy but it usually does not affect what I am going to buy.
I therefore would suggest to simply adapt the prices of the items and label these according to their expected quality and not based on static criteria (age) that are more and more meaningless due to todays problems.
What do you think about that?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on April 02, 2012, 08:37:18 AM
Hi,

in my experience, customers require either:

A) a plant that will flower in the forthcoming season (these are usually more expensive);
B) a plant which they are prepared to grow until it flowers (these are usually less expensive).

For Type A) here is the scheme used by many of us, where the age of the plant is irrelevant:

FS =    flowering size. i.e. capable of flowering in the forthcoming season;
FS-1    needs one more year before it is capable of flowering;
FS-2    needs two more years before it is capable of flowering.

This means that a plant sold as FS can be 2 or more years old and so can an FS-1 or FS-2 if it takes a long time for that plant to get to flowering size.

For type B) where the customer is prepared to grow the plant from young until it flowers, a different scheme is used, for example:

1 year out of flask or
1 year in soil.

This tells the customers something about how to carry on growing the plant, without indicating how many years it may take to flower which, of course, depends on many factors including the characteristics of the plant itself and the care it receives (including climate / weather).

Hope this helps. :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 02, 2012, 09:33:28 AM
Maren, it doesn't help unfortunately!

The point is, that there is -as far as I can see- definitively no common sense about the quality rating of such bulbs because it is not based on facts but only on guessing!
Therefore the label FS alone stands for nothing that I am able to exactly describe in words and such is a permanent source of misunderstandings and disappointments by the customers.

To me, a plant is FS if it HAS ALREADY FLOWERED, it is MATURE if it already has reached its "adult" dimensions and properties for at least one vegetative seasons.
In all other cases the plant is young and maybe rated by age or size and weight of it's tubers.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: SteveC2 on April 02, 2012, 09:52:42 AM
I've been growing dacts for twenty years and one thing that always amazes me is the variability in size of "flowering size tubers".  
My giant is one clone of "Blackthorn hybrid", often incorrectly labelled as "Grandis" but whose parentage is unknown.  Its tubers are the size of a toddler's hand.  To endear it to me even more, it has huge spots on huge leaves, and doubles in number every year without fail.  
My first ever dact was a D. fuchsii, which never once produced a tuber bigger then my little finger, nor reached more than about four inches in height but built into a nice colony of around twenty plants and flowered for me every year for fifteen years before gradually running out of steam.  The colony is now down to six plants, repotting, splitting etc has had no effect on its vigour it just seems to be "old".  I'm told that dact populations in the wild behave similarly and this is always put down to succession, but I'm wondering if it's genetic.  I've had seedling hybrids flower in pots of bletillas and hostas and when I've finally repotted the host plants I've struggled to find the tubers because they were so much smaller than expected.  Equally I have a pot full of D. maculata which flower every year off two inch tubers, producing nice sized plants similar to those in my local wild colony.
Finally I have a veteran clone of the true form of foliosa, just one plant, because despite producing a decent sized plant and flowering every year for the past decade it refuses to produce more than a single replacement tuber, albeit a huge one.  I've just accepted that it will never produce a large display.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings, what is my conclusion?
With dacts, as in so much of life, size isn't everything.  My advice to Mark, who is quite clearly a capable dact grower, would be to grow them on and comment in July, after the flowering season.  Who knows, you just might be pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: SteveC2 on April 02, 2012, 10:05:03 AM
Winwen posted whilst I was typing my response, so here's part two.  Your suggestion is fine for calnthes and cypripediums but can never work with dacts, or any of the tuberous orchids, because each tuber will only flower once.  Just because a parent plant flowered it doesn't mean that it will produce a FS tuber.  In fact I've found that the better a plant flowers the less likely it is to produce a big tuber for the next year, or even a tuber at all! 
Labelling a plant FS is not really guessing, it's simply that the grower, using his experience, believes that if grown well, and if the conditions are kind, that tuber is of a size that will flower in the next season. 
And a final observation, if you buy so-called FS tubers and are disappointed, then surely the first point of call is to contact the dealer from whom you purchased and discuss the situation, rather than to launch a discussion like this?  I must say that I admire Jeff for responding to this thread.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on April 02, 2012, 10:21:20 AM

And a final observation, if you buy so-called FS tubers and are disappointed, then surely the first point of call is to contact the dealer from whom you purchased and discuss the situation, rather than to launch a discussion like this?  I must say that I admire Jeff for responding to this thread.

Quite so, Steve - and that is a point that has often been made before.  
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 02, 2012, 11:04:37 AM
I also admire Jeff for his decision to take part in this discussion. This is not an easy thing-I know!
All the more because the matters we are talking about are not only his concern but also every commercial plant breeders/traders/growers.....

To make it clear: I am no disappointed customer, I only have ONE central question:
Is there a common understanding of FS-label based on FACTS?

As far as several answers suggest, there are no such facts. I do not rate this at all (good or bad) but the only fact I could find is: FS-label is based only on (not guessing-please apologize my bad English, this was not what I meant!) estimations made by the growers.
Estimations may be good or bad, they may be made by very sophisticated/experienced growers or by bloody amateurs who only call themselves cultivateurs and have never grown anything, BUT an estimation is an estimation and NOT FACT.

Steve, if a plant that you sell has already flowered, wouldn't you tell this to the customer prior to selling it (regardless of wether it will flower the following season or not)? I would find it worth mentioning, because it is a FACT. You wrote that some, if not most, tuberous terrestrial orchids won't flower on two successive seasons in nature. I know this is right, but don't you dead-head these orchids when they start building up a flowering stalk? OK, you wont get any seeds this way, but it is one of the best ways to get really strong tubers the following season. In so far I would find such an info absolutely worth mentioning. Not only because it is a fact but also because it tells the customer more adequate what he will get if he decides to buy a certain plant.
 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: SteveC2 on April 02, 2012, 11:18:14 AM
Just to clarify, I'm not a trader, never will be.  I treat my plants like my "babies" and any potential customers would suffer the spanish inquisition before I would sell them anything.
As for dead heading the likes of Ophrys after flowering I sometimes wonder about the time scale involved with these plants.  I find that by the time the flower is produced the leaves are usually becoming downright tatty and dormancy follows very soon afterwards.  Surely the next year's tuber is pretty much formed by then.  I've not checked as this would involve digging one of the babies up whilst in flower!  To ensure a bigger tuber for the following year I suspect that I'd have to stop the plant flowering altogether which is just silly.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on April 02, 2012, 11:28:43 AM
To be fair to Mark he did not complain about any nursery in particular and just said he was disappointed with two out of three he had used and would report back later on how they turned out as he could not believe the size of some plants being sold as FS. It was more of a question and asking others for their input, well that's how I read it anyway. He then put photo's to show the size and later on this year will hopefully show us more growth and if they flowered or not. Sorry but is this not useful information to other forum members or people that have never grown Dacts before, as I was under the impression that's what forums were for? Maybe everyone should just stick to showing pictures and using a 'I'm so happy thread' from now on.

I personally would have contacted the nursery about the very small tubers (which incidentally were not from Jeff) and I also agree with the admiration of others about Jeff coming forward and putting his side across regarding the plants he did sell as his name was not mentioned and he could have sat back and said nothing as I have seen others do in the past.

Winwen - As Steve has said above regarding tubers, corns, etc which is spot on. The same thing applies to Pleione that the grower has to take an educated guess as the old bulb dies away and is replaced with a new one. FS therefore has to mean a plant of flowering size and there is no guarantee it will flower until the new shoot reaches a certain size and even then it can abort. The fact that the old bulb flowered on one occasion is irrelevant as it depends on the size and quality of its replacement. If you want guarantees then you will be buying plants as non flowering from now on as it's impossible to say. The skill of the new grower also has to come in to play and you will find most sales of FS plants are sold as flowering size under ideal conditions.

There has to be some sort of reference guide and although not ideal in every circumstance I think what Maren said above FS,FS-1 and FS-2 is far better than giving pot sizes which many nurseries do or saying it will flower but with no guarantee.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 02, 2012, 11:50:06 AM
I never asked for any kind of guarantees!
I just asked for facts.
Of course there maybe facts which are irrelevant for customer-expectations but then again they might be not. Facts often wont allow for any prediction but they stand for themselves and how they are being judged should be left to the customer.

I mean, as long as such labels like FS are solely based on the (valuable) estimation of the seller, some additional facts for the customers would never do any harm!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on April 02, 2012, 12:10:59 PM
Ok, if a plant that produces a new tuber, bulb or corn has flowered the year before it does not mean the newly formed bulb, tuber or corn will flower for you and any such claims are an estimated guess, fact. ;D

If you can think of a better way of selling dormant bulbs, etc I'm all for it. The only other way is to sell plants potted and not until flowering growth is showing which shortens the selling season and will therefore force prices up and can only be sold at shows as postage would be to risky.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 02, 2012, 12:33:15 PM
Oh, I changed my posting while you were writing your new one......

I think we are quite close together now, in that additional facts wont allow for any predictions. The same is true for seller-estimations, but since there can't be any guarantees and facts stand for themselves, the customer should also be given the possibility to rate these facts for himself.

That would be my suggestion for a "better way of selling". Just a brief additional description based on facts about the plant would do it!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Jeff Hutchings on April 02, 2012, 06:53:04 PM
This has been a useful discussion from both sides of the fence. I think Maren's system is ideal for pleione but has limitations for other species. I have experienced the same size problem when buying from growers, particularly with dactylorhiza and those with oval tubers. Dactylorhiza are often sold by year of growth which tells little if there has been a problem in the previous year. This can create problems when buying in hundreds, especially if they are for a meadow planting where you want large plants.


Jeff
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 03, 2012, 04:18:29 PM
Until yesterday I hadnt outed any nurseries and didnt intend to. Like others I'd rather buy a plant that had flowered rather but a tiny plant that ould flower.

No more mail order orchids for me. I'll accept those that are still owed by two nurseries
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 04, 2012, 11:41:05 AM
Here's the variegated Dactylorhiza fuschii. I dont know why it's so late this year.

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 05, 2012, 06:11:06 PM
Some self sown Dactylorhizas.

Should I move those in the pot in to 1L pots of their own?

1. Dactylorhiza seedlings in a pot that had a Geum that died
2. seedling in to a trough
3&4 seedling in a miniature Hosta crown
7. seedling in an Iris
8. seedlings in the crown of Geranium Rozanne
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: angie on April 05, 2012, 06:51:57 PM
Well, they certainly feel at home in your garden, seeing all over the place. I hope mine start seeding around. You must always get such a lovely display from your Dactylorhiza  8).

Angie  :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 05, 2012, 07:15:06 PM
yes a good show when they were all in one place - the front garden only. Most are now in a bed for Colchicums and orchids with some here and there in troughs
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 07, 2012, 08:36:40 PM
more babies that I noticed today

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 07, 2012, 08:44:54 PM
3, 4, 9, 10 and 11 are in troughs that were made and planted in July 2009. How long has it taken for these seedlings to get to this size? I dont remember seeing them last year
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Stephen Vella on April 08, 2012, 02:25:18 PM
Mark they are like weeds..not known to be like this here in Australia and I don't know why.. Maybe its your high rainfall but I found that I would get a 2% germination rate in a general potting mix that is bark fines type.your variegated Dact is fascinating
Cheers
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on April 08, 2012, 02:50:10 PM
I had Dactylorhiza maculata popping up like weeds for years.
I don't even know where the seed came from, I'm in town.

I finished up with several pots and a 6ft run in troughs.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2378/3008776176_f2108d9a56_z.jpg)

Then in 2009 the Dactylorhiza lurgi got in.
Not one of the plants pictured survived.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3040/3002999569_b5d6480fd2_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3005/3003834294_dc7f2cd265_z.jpg)

All I have left of the originals are some which were in pots in the greenhouse.
All the ones kept outside, and some acquired in 2009 and 2010 perished.

Beware the lurgi
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 08, 2012, 02:52:27 PM
Wow, what a shame.  Hard to believe....
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 02:53:17 PM
What is the Lurgi please?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on April 08, 2012, 03:02:08 PM
Subject discussed here Ron, I wouldn't wish this blighter on anyone.

http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7242.0

http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=566.0
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 03:03:28 PM
Thanks Fred.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on April 08, 2012, 03:44:28 PM
Fred

I had a wonderful collection until about five years ago and then they were all destroyed.

There are however masses of self sown seedlings around the garden so I had hoped I was clear.

I have just started again last year with some new special ones and it looks like I still have the problem. It seems it can stay around in the soil for some years.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on April 08, 2012, 03:52:37 PM
Tony

It's not just in the soil.
Mine were all outside in peat compost in tubs and troughs, I ditched the contaminated ones.
I'm still ditching them 3 years later, 2 pots this year outside.
All others look clear and healthy.

There is one group that has survived outside unscathed so far in a tub of Hosta.  ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on April 08, 2012, 05:29:20 PM
Well so far this year I am in the clear, but I am spraying them a systemic fungicide, to ensure it does not return.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on April 08, 2012, 05:48:28 PM
Well so far this year I am in the clear, but I am spraying them a systemic fungicide, to ensure it does not return.

Neil

what are you spraying with,I have tried a selection with no result?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on April 08, 2012, 07:02:41 PM
What is the Lurgi please?

You not old enough to be a fan of The Goons then Ron? :P
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 07:04:26 PM
Who?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 07:12:21 PM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: David Nicholson on April 08, 2012, 07:13:11 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on April 08, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
One of my best finds on eBay... 146 episodes of The Goon Show for about £5.  ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
You got a very good price for your Goons collection then Fred, ;D ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 08, 2012, 08:25:43 PM
Well so far this year I am in the clear, but I am spraying them a systemic fungicide, to ensure it does not return.

I've sprayed every year but not this year after someone told me I might be killing friendly fungi. Maybe I'll spray mine tomorrow
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on April 08, 2012, 08:30:56 PM
Please don't .... we are very friendly,  :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on April 08, 2012, 10:01:31 PM
Well so far this year I am in the clear, but I am spraying them a systemic fungicide, to ensure it does not return.

Neil

what are you spraying with,I have tried a selection with no result?

I am using http://www.syngenta-crop.co.uk/products/switch/summary.aspx got it from a local farmer already mixed.  Not sure were you would get it from, probably a Horticulture supplier.

Mark Dactylorhiza does not need a fungus once it has germinated and produced a tuber.  But if you are concerned then cover the soil up around the stem before spraying.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on April 08, 2012, 11:07:08 PM
I am trying a couple of fungicides but also using Viresco to see if I can build some sort of immunity. This might seem at odds with each other but i am keeping the fungicide doses well spaced apart.

I am also worried I might have it on a platanthera but it might just be poor cultivation so I will have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on April 09, 2012, 10:15:56 AM
I think you could be right about the Platanthera being susceptible to it as I lost mine the other year.  Also at the end of the growing season, mine are all in pots, I dispose of all the growing media and start with fresh for the following year.  This has reduced the instances of it.  Hopefully I have seen the back of it and can start getting more in.  Although I do have some invitro ATM which should have been deflasked last year but I held off for one more year.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 09, 2012, 12:40:05 PM
weedling just now I found another 7 Dactylorhozas.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 09, 2012, 06:17:55 PM
Today I potted, singly, 23 spotty babies that self seeded in to pots.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 09, 2012, 09:25:06 PM
Tomorrow they will be top dressed with cambark
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on April 10, 2012, 07:45:01 AM
Hi Mark,
what compost did you use?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 10, 2012, 09:50:52 AM
A mix of top soil, leaf mould and grit which is probably wrong
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on April 10, 2012, 11:41:35 AM
Seems to work for you. ;) ;)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 10, 2012, 12:27:19 PM
Mine seed into all my pots and sinks too.  They seem to be comfortable growing in grass, cracks in paving, in my pond, in very dry open pots in fact I can't think of a location they are not happy.  So I reckon the compost one uses to repot them doesn't matter a jot.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 10, 2012, 12:49:27 PM
Chris mine varied also in their choice. Very gritty mixes, pure grit, wet peaty mixes. They definitely like growing among the roots of other plants especially Geraniums, Iris and Hostas.

Their roots varied in size from not much to about 8cm long. The tubers were mostly in the top couple cms with about half of the roots among the moss and weeds on the surface.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 10, 2012, 03:14:53 PM
Mine have turned up in any pots that hang around and don't get planted out within a couple of years.  I keep some semps in pots on top of the cold frame brickwork and they love to get in those.  But they are quite dry except when it rains.  When I empty a pot that I know they are in, the tubers or whatever you call the piece below the soil, like yours, vary from a slivver to something as thick as my finger.  They are not picky at all when it comes to settling in.  I just wish my very choicest one would start producing more projeny.  Its super. Just popped out to take a photo of its foliage, its D. fuchsii of course.  Stunning foliage.  I daren't move it because its settled in in this sink.  I'm going to have to top dress the sink but not take stuff out.  Time consuming and tedious....
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 10, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
wow that's a lovely self sown Dactylorhiza. If that was mine I would divide it in July and make a small group. How many growing points?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 10, 2012, 07:06:16 PM
It's not self sown Mark, I got it from a nursery at Hexham Show about four years ago.  They had others but none were as good as the one I bought, and I think theirs were self sown seedlings.  It was quite small but its multiplied nicely.  Its flowers are nice, but not as nice as that foliage.  I think I counted 4 growing points this year, so its bulking up.  I can't bear to dig it out though, I'm afraid of spoiling it.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on April 10, 2012, 07:11:13 PM
I think next year you will do better to lift it and spread the tubers out a bit, Christine. By next August it will likely be double in size and will appeciate some extra space and fresh soil. Some clumps do go on flowering quite well when congested, but it's a risk so we tend to lift and split fairly regularly. The foliage on that one is really nice and surely worth keeping an eye on to keep it in finest fettle.   
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 10, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
Ok, I hear ya both... I'll take a deep breath and sort it out this summer....
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 10, 2012, 08:25:53 PM
Chris this is how easy it is http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/230806/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2006/230806/log.html)

I've just thought of something. I mentioned today and last year how Dactylorhizas have roots just below soil surface. Could it be that the 'fingers' of the tuber are anchor roots while the roots that emerge from just below the growing point are feeding roots?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ChrisB on April 10, 2012, 11:08:26 PM
Mark - the hard part is plucking up the courage to dig them out, not the splitting once dug.  I've done the latter many times.  I am just nervous about digging that particular one out as it looks so comfortable where it is...
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on April 11, 2012, 06:50:22 AM
...
I finished up with several pots and a 6ft run in troughs.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2378/3008776176_f2108d9a56_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3040/3002999569_b5d6480fd2_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3005/3003834294_dc7f2cd265_z.jpg)
Thank you very much, Fred!
Your pictures -especially the collage- show everything which is, why I love those Dactylorhiza maculata sooooooo much!
Your 6 feet run in troughs reminds me of what I have seen about 3-4 years ago in a roadside ditch in Sweden. Sadly most of these were killed when the municipal community decided to deepen those ditches after heavy summer-rainfalls  :-[
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Jonny_SE on April 11, 2012, 10:05:51 AM
Dactylorhiza maculata is somthing that spreads out in every flower bed i got them so if anyone want to trade feel free to ask..........//Jonny
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 11, 2012, 10:19:31 AM
yes please 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Jonny_SE on April 11, 2012, 11:00:02 AM
Mail me your address Mark...they are 1cm over ground now and still inn good dormacy to ship i think....//Jonny
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Jonny_SE on April 11, 2012, 11:43:15 AM
I just  had to check out the once i potted last autum so there was any life in them before i promissed anything...i think some maybe need one more year before they bloom but some will for sure.....Jonny
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 15, 2012, 07:47:29 PM
oh my :o
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Slug Killer on April 15, 2012, 08:12:49 PM
Mark, Oh my does not come close, it really is exceptional.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 15, 2012, 08:16:04 PM
I'm worried for it this year because so far there isnt much chlorophyl.

Next week I'll have to make a small sun screen to go around it so it doesnt burn
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on April 17, 2012, 06:54:38 PM
Mark

I would not put a sun screen round it, in the wild Dacts are usually out in the open in full sun.  It won't burn because of the lack of chlorophyl, it will just not produce much energy from the sun, so it will need as much sunlight as possible.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on April 17, 2012, 11:23:13 PM
Didnt think about that Neil, thanks
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 16, 2012, 11:45:36 AM
I continue to find spotty babies. I found one today in the middle of a clump of Iris.

Also two large spot babies. Do you think they will keep large spots?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on May 16, 2012, 11:57:45 AM
Mark

I have dozens if not a couple of hundred self sown seedlings and there is not one without spots.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on May 16, 2012, 03:18:16 PM
I have a Dactylorhiza maculata  that at some stage I want named.
This is for the leaf marking, not the flower :D
Amazingly it survived the Lurgi epidemic untouched.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 16, 2012, 11:41:45 PM
Fred, what does it look like? Any photos?

Tony I found some babies today growing among Geranium Rozanne. I'll check again tomorrow but I think they have no spots
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 20, 2012, 11:06:44 PM
My spotty babies are doing really well. A few have flower stems which means they have been in the garden for several years.

And the spotless babies that are growing among the roots of Geranium Rozanne
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 20, 2012, 11:23:55 PM
A large plant currently 13 inches / 33cm high. It was a self sown seedling a few years ago
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on May 21, 2012, 08:08:35 AM
Mark, you should start a trade in Spotty Babies. I know I'd love some. :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 21, 2012, 09:58:43 AM
Maren if only I had enough
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 22, 2012, 10:54:25 AM
I found/noticed another spotty baby. This is growing in the crown of a Hellebore so probably no chance of getting it out.

Are the leopard spots significant?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on May 22, 2012, 05:32:31 PM
Are the leopard spots significant?

Not particularly Mark, I have seedlings with leopard markings.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on May 22, 2012, 05:49:57 PM
Dactylorhiza umbrosa

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 22, 2012, 11:34:54 PM
Thank Neil.

D. umbrosa has lovely shaped flowers

Does anyone fail to see Dactylorhiza seedlings until they flower? I found one today. I walked by a small raised bed and a bit of pink caught my eye. Plain green leaves. I'll get a photo tomorrow.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: angie on May 23, 2012, 11:21:06 PM
Mark I found six seedling last week in a potted plant that had died. I threw in the field to rot down. I then looked around and there was another one on my dead fern tree. I have never seen this before or maybe I never knew what they were. These were spotted , I think if they were just the green leaves I wouldn't have noticed them until they were flowering.
Great when you find plants.

Angie  :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on May 23, 2012, 11:34:21 PM
Neil

very interesting to see,lovely flower
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on May 24, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
Seedlings of Dact. elata (?) deflasked in 2010 into pure sponge rock and not touched since, except for watering and the occasional weak feed. - The flask came from Equatorial plants. I'm rather pleased with the result.
Why are some spotted and others not? No idea but maybe someone here has some suggestions. I shall photograph them again when they flower.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on May 24, 2012, 04:54:03 PM
Maren

you say they are Dact elata but the label in the pot says foliosa but either way
my first suggestion would be that they are not either but a hybrid.

My books say plain leaves but can rarely be spotted for both but I think those are outside that parameter.

I wonder where the seed came from?

They look very good plants.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on May 24, 2012, 09:55:23 PM
Hi Tony,

you caught me there, I mislabeled the .jpgs, silly me. The flask came from Equatorial Plants equatorialplants@teesdaleonline.co.uk. I'll have to ask Dick Warren about them. He may not know, as he just receives the pod in good faith. However, I do not think he would have mixed the contents of two pods together in a flask. I have had many flasks from him.  He may make more than one flask from a pod but never two pods in a flask. :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on May 25, 2012, 01:03:40 PM
Maren

I was not suggesting any mix up in the flasking but these things are very promiscuous and if they were open pollinated then there is every chance they are hybrids.

I feel that unless they are propagated by division of plants kept in pots then there is little chance of them being true. In the garden new seedlings appear and old plants die out and therefore over a period who knows what arises
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: erf on May 28, 2012, 03:39:15 PM
Dear all experts

This winter my dactylorhiza place in the garden was completely messed up by cats  ???  :'(. All nameplates was all pulled up and spread around. This means that the plants that are flowering now, are without name. Can any of you give me a hand getting order into this mess. I have tried with the help of the internet, but I am not all sure.

Kind regards Erling
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on May 29, 2012, 11:45:34 AM
Dactylorhiza fuchsii in flower. It is 58 cms tall,leggy rather than elegant.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on May 29, 2012, 05:27:51 PM
One of those seedlings that pop-up here and there.
I'll leave it to Davey to ID  ;D

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on May 29, 2012, 06:56:07 PM
The first hybrid dactylorhizas are in bloom.  Parentage?  D. fuchsii, D. maculata, D. mascula?  They're so nice, I don't much care, since they seeded themselves.  They seem to like places where it's almost impossible to move them, as in the middle of Pacific Coast hybrid irises.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 29, 2012, 07:58:42 PM
OM! Claire P1050002.jpg is a stunner!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on May 29, 2012, 08:55:08 PM
One of those seedlings that pop-up here and there.
I'll leave it to Davey to ID  ;D
A purple marsh orchid Fred  ;D ;D ;D ;D very possibly a hybrid
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 30, 2012, 07:41:24 PM
Looks like Harold Esselmont is seeding in the garden and coming true.

1 Harold Esselmont
2 Harold Esselmont
3 seedling
4 seedling
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 30, 2012, 07:48:20 PM
A rescued plant from a garden once belonging to brilliant N Irish plant collector
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 30, 2012, 08:18:47 PM
If only orchids had as much interest as snowdrops  :(

Dactylorhiza ?fuchsii ex Cruickshank Botanic Gardens
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on May 30, 2012, 08:33:28 PM
Overall, I'm sure orchids have even more interest in them than snowdrops!

It's just that there are many thousands of species of orchid in hundreds of genera and, as we can see in the Dactylorhiza photos, every one is a bit different, so there is no generation of the hysteria that accompanies galanthus. There have been fanatic orchid collectors in history, of course, and I suppose some do still exist, but by and large they seem to keep their foibles a little more out of the public eye!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on May 30, 2012, 08:39:54 PM
There are two orchid training days over here tomorrow and July 5th lead by Tom Curtis. Maybe I should cut some stems for him.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on May 30, 2012, 10:16:55 PM
Overall, I'm sure orchids have even more interest in them than snowdrops!

It's just that there are many thousands of species of orchid in hundreds of genera and, as we can see in the Dactylorhiza photos, every one is a bit different, so there is no generation of the hysteria that accompanies galanthus. There have been fanatic orchid collectors in history, of course, and I suppose some do still exist, but by and large they seem to keep their foibles a little more out of the public eye!


But is that not the same with the galanthus only slight differences and they are then given another cultivar name?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on June 01, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
My Dacties started flowering too...
[attach=2]
another one....
[attach=3]
good to see that also the babies come true...
[attach=4]
and finally one shot just to make you want more....
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Brian Ellis on June 01, 2012, 02:23:07 PM
Please note I am not rising to the moderators comments on snowdrops ;)  Lovely photos all, I see my dacts are almost showing colour.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 01, 2012, 03:06:22 PM
Sometimes it is boring for the moderator when forumists show restraint.....
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Brian Ellis on June 01, 2012, 05:40:36 PM
 :-*
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 04, 2012, 04:43:25 PM
This is probably a hybrid or a pure specie. Anyone know about lip shapes? It has spots but they are small and confined to the leaf bases

This plant originated in Jim Price's garden. Such an avid collector of plants
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on June 04, 2012, 09:30:28 PM
This Dactylorhyza appeared in my lawn a few years ago.  I only had D. purpurella with plain leaves in the garden and the earlier flowering  D. 'Cruickshank' with spotty leaves so suspect it may be a hybrid.  It is earlier than D. purpurella and D. maculata which occurs wild nearby. 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on June 04, 2012, 09:39:25 PM
Another two.  The first came in a pot of Corydalis 'Craigton Blue'.
The second was growing in a field where my ponies were grazing 3 or 4 years ago.  I 'rescued' it after it  got eaten then trampled.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 04, 2012, 10:01:09 PM
Fabulous spotty babies, Roma

Tell me more about D. 'Cruickshank'. Is this Cruickshank's dark leaf, with black leaves, or ex/via Cruickshank Botanic Garden and sold to me by Ian Christie
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on June 04, 2012, 10:16:16 PM
The Dactylorhyza I remember from the Cruickshank Garden has spotty leaves and pink flowers. It was thought to be a D. fuchsii hybrid  It grows early and the leaves often get damaged.  I am not sure if much survives in the garden.  My own patch lost vigour and was down to one feeble plant this year.  I don't know anything about the black leaved form apart from seeing pics on the Forum.  It did not originate in the Cruickshank Garden. 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 05, 2012, 07:24:04 AM
Roma do  you have photos of 'Cruickshank'
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 05, 2012, 01:22:30 PM
Mark, see the Bulb Log, 25 of 2003
http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/180603/log.html (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/180603/log.html)

[attachimg=1]

 Dact. 'Cruickshank is the spotty-leaved pink form , lower centre of the pic.



 And this is the foliage in March
[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 05, 2012, 01:35:08 PM
I see Roma had a photo of a Dact. Cruickshank flower here :
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2926.msg96293#msg96293 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=2926.msg96293#msg96293)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on June 05, 2012, 01:44:04 PM
Thanks for that, Maggi.  I would never have found it and didn't remember I had mentioned the probable parentage of the spotty one before.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 05, 2012, 01:47:52 PM
Thanks Maggi. My plant has leaves like Ian's. I must get a couple more from Ian C or whoever ..

I shall relabel my ex Cruickshank Botanic Garden plant as Cruickshank.

My plant suffereed badly in the wind last Saturday
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on June 05, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
I have  Dactylorhiza Cruikshank which as is normal came from an impeccable source and it has leaves with just a few vague spots nothing like the leaves show here. It is light pink so I suppose it has something in common..
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 05, 2012, 02:38:20 PM
Any photos Tony?

Tony does your plant have silver on the leaves also?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on June 05, 2012, 03:03:35 PM
Any photos Tony?

Tony does your plant have silver on the leaves also?

it is too early to photgraph it in flower. It has slightly silver undersides but nothing like as much as many of my self sown very spotted ones.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 05, 2012, 03:12:18 PM
This is one of the leaves from my Cruickshank
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Melvyn Jope on June 07, 2012, 11:52:32 AM
I grow very few Dactylorhiza but this one grows well in a pot, nice dark flowers and plain green leaves. Does anyone recognise it as a particular species/selection?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 07, 2012, 05:46:43 PM
Maren, I take great photos!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 07, 2012, 05:51:03 PM
nice dark flowers and plain green leaves. Does anyone recognise it as a particular species/selection?

what ever it is it's a lovely colour combination
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 07, 2012, 06:06:56 PM
Melvyn is that colour true because that shade of pink is incredible.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 07, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
Oh Mark, you little tease ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Melvyn Jope on June 07, 2012, 08:00:20 PM
Hello Dave, Yes I think it is a pretty good likeness to the true colour.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on June 08, 2012, 10:09:04 PM
Some more shots from my Dacties.....
1.) Dactylorhiza maculata with very broad lip with wavy margin - bicolored-form
2.) bicolored D.m. with very good contrast
3.) bicolored form with good contrast and yellow pollinia
4.) Dactylorhiza with remarkable color transition: darker in bud (on the top) - lighter below
5.) D.m. with very attractive pastell coloration: lip has a slightly yellow taint (gradually getting whiter with age of flower) while the BACK of the petals is soft rose - really great!
6.) ...does not really belong here: Platanthera chlorantha (please ignore  ;))
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 08, 2012, 10:16:26 PM
3 is lovely.

here's a lovely, to my eyes, loose flowered Dactylorhiza ?fuchsii that appeared in one of my troughs. The lip is very divided. The height is 18 inches 46cm
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 08, 2012, 10:33:01 PM
3 is lovely.

here's a lovely, to my eyes, loose flowered Dactylorhiza ?fuchsii that appeared in one of my troughs. The lip is very divided.
Mark that is very nice,fantastic long spike.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 08, 2012, 10:40:51 PM
Fingers crossed that it will produce a second tuber when I remove next years.

I think I'll remove new tubers this month so the parent plants have a longer time to produce a new one or two. Anyone got any views on this? Does anyone remove the new tuber before now?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on June 09, 2012, 12:33:13 AM
The dactylorhizas are really starting to hit their stride in my garden, despite the very cool and wet weather we've had lately.  The first photo is D. fuchsii, the remainder are hybrids of various sorts.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on June 09, 2012, 07:08:10 AM
3 is lovely.

here's a lovely, to my eyes, loose flowered Dactylorhiza ?fuchsii that appeared in one of my troughs. The lip is very divided. The height is 18 inches 46cm
Lovely, Mark!
Here is my version of a loose flowered Dactylorhiza.
Plant will get around 30 inches high. The inflorescence stretches to around 10 inches length. It is one of the plants with yellow pollen.

Unfortunately the photo of the pastell colored Dacty does not really show its full beauty - I have always problems with colors when using my sony-camera. I will upload more photos when the plant is fully developed.

Claire, your Nr. 3 reminds me of the Dacties that I can typicaly find in Sweden in summer. The pattern on the lip is very typical for scandinavian Dactylorhiza maculata. Are you sure this is of hybrid origin?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: SteveC2 on June 09, 2012, 10:21:46 AM
Mark, personally I'd leave well alone until the plant goes dormant.  For most of my dacts making two new fully developed tubers is no problem without any help from me.  This summer division technique is totally unnecessary for most of the natives and their hybrids.  Species such as sambucina, romana and the other southern europeans behave more like ophrys and will only make one replacement so the scalpel might be needed, but fuchsii has always done fine on its own, after all no one summer divides in the wild.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 09, 2012, 10:41:53 AM
Fingers crossed that it will produce a second tuber when I remove next years.

I think I'll remove new tubers this month so the parent plants have a longer time to produce a new one or two. Anyone got any views on this? Does anyone remove the new tuber before now?
I think it is far too early, Mark. Wait till after the flowers  have faded.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 09, 2012, 10:43:53 AM
Claire, your no.3  is a beauty, with those simple and clear markings. I am most interested to hear from Erwin that such plants are typical in Scandanavia.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 09, 2012, 10:46:40 AM
I am with Maggie and i have to say it's fantastic that a group of hardy orchids has become so 'mainstream'.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: SteveC2 on June 09, 2012, 10:50:07 AM
Here's some photos quickly taken to support my earlier comment.
dactdoubling one shows my "Blackthorn hybrid".  Purchased in 2007 as a single tuber, 2008=2, 2009=4, 2010=8, 2011=16, now in two big pots, and I fully expect to have 32 for next year.  In the foreground are D. umbrosa, in it's second year with me, three tubers, one flowering size two smaller ones.  The singleton is my "true foliosa" which behaves more like a southern european dact producing one tuber each year and is I suppose a case for the summer division.
dactdoubling two shows two hybrids, in their third and fourth years respectively, happily bulking up.
dact doubling three much the same.  The singletons are either new plants or seedlings extracted from the hostas.
(Please forgive the state of the hostas.  Usually it's so dry here that the slugs don't come onto the slabs.  Since April they've pretty much been able to swim across them.)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 09, 2012, 10:56:55 AM
Here's some photos quickly taken to support my earlier comment.
dactdoubling one shows my "Blackthorn hybrid".  Purchased in 2007 as a single tuber, 2008=2, 2009=4, 2010=8, 2011=16, now in two big pots, and I fully expect to have 32 for next year.  In the foreground are D. umbrosa, in it's second year with me, three tubers, one flowering size two smaller ones.  The singleton is my "true foliosa" which behaves more like a southern european dact producing one tuber each year and is I suppose a case for the summer division.
dactdoubling two shows two hybrids, in their third and fourth years respectively, happily bulking up.
dact doubling three much the same.  The singletons are either new plants or seedlings extracted from the hostas.
(Please forgive the state of the hostas.  Usually it's so dry here that the slugs don't come onto the slabs.  Since April they've pretty much been able to swim across them.)
Steve i agree Dacts do vegatively multiply under there own steam but i think Mark was just trying to get a bigger clump as possible as quick as he can.
In the wild you don't often(well i haven't)seen very big natural clumps more often single growth plants,i have seen clumps with 10 spikes but that was very rare,it would be interesting to think what others say about this.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 09, 2012, 03:12:09 PM
Many of my favourites in the garden have always been single plants.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on June 09, 2012, 03:39:07 PM
A tremendous reminder of last year's visit of our much admired Bulb despot:

Dact. "Eskimo Nell"

 
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 09, 2012, 03:46:41 PM
Now that was a great gift
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on June 10, 2012, 11:55:39 AM
A small selection of the Dactylorhiza in flower at the moment.


Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 10, 2012, 05:22:41 PM
Fred theres some stunning forms there,how as your alba done this year?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Graham Catlow on June 10, 2012, 09:03:34 PM
I must look for some pale coloured forms. There are some really lovely ones being shown here. I tend to grow bold coloured flowers but these paler Dacts. could be the exception.

Flowering at the moment.
D. foliosa
D. foliosa group
D. 'Harold Esslemont'

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: wooden shoe on June 10, 2012, 09:17:29 PM
In a field less then a kilometer from my house it's purple from the Dactylorhiza majalis now. Both the form without spotted leaves and the form with spots grow in abundancy together. Dactylorhiza majalis subsp. praetermissa and Dactylorhiza majalis subsp. praetermissa var. junialis for whatever those names may be worthwhile. Both are welcome intruders in my garden too, but I have too wait a while before my garden looks like this.

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 11, 2012, 10:49:29 AM
I really enjoy seeing all these Dacts.

 Just a note : the late, great Scottish grower was Harold Esslemont   .... most folks seem to spell the Dact as Esselmont ... it should be D. 'Harold Esslemont'
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 11, 2012, 05:42:50 PM
yes Miss.

Is it foliosa?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 11, 2012, 05:45:44 PM
In the sun shine yesterday I was able to get good close shots of my frilly edged Dactylorhiza ?fuchsii
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Graham Catlow on June 11, 2012, 05:59:51 PM
I really enjoy seeing all these Dacts.

 Just a note : the late, great Scottish grower was Harold Esslemont   .... most folks seem to spell the Dact as Esselmont ... it should be D. 'Harold Esslemont'

Thanks Maggi.
I have changed it now. I nearly looked it up to see how to spell it but decided there could only be one way. How wrong was I :-\
Have spelt if very wrong in the photo file name. Can I change that without reposting?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 11, 2012, 06:23:42 PM
yes Miss.

Is it foliosa?
You may call me  "Madam"    :)
 I think it is a foliosa hybrid.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on June 12, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
Two of mine in flower. i do not know if it is the season but they are all tall and leggy this year.

Dactylorhiza saccifera

Dactylorhiza fuchsii
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 12, 2012, 03:22:35 PM
Mine are the same size, less light than last year as it has been cloudy a lot this year
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 12, 2012, 09:12:54 PM
Neil

what are you spraying with,I have tried a selection with no result?


I am using http://www.syngenta-crop.co.uk/products/switch/summary.aspx (http://www.syngenta-crop.co.uk/products/switch/summary.aspx) got it from a local farmer already mixed.  Not sure were you would get it from, probably a Horticulture supplier.


Ok that does not work 5 more species have succumbed to it
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 12, 2012, 09:33:25 PM
Neil

I'm amazed you have them this size and they flower?





following on from Marks post http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8689.msg240865#msg240865 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=8689.msg240865#msg240865)

here is one of Dactylorhiza purpurella


Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 12, 2012, 10:19:24 PM
Least said ....  :-X :-X except to say that one from each supplier died and another one isnt as supplied.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 13, 2012, 07:16:41 PM
Do you orchid folks think this is a Dact. purpurella ?
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 13, 2012, 07:44:08 PM
My purpurellas are Cadbury purple / RHS colours chart 79C. The nectary opening stands out as being white and the lips spots are redder than the purple. My camera doesnt do Cadbury purple.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 13, 2012, 07:58:55 PM
Most likely, do you have a better shot of the flowers?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 13, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
No, sorry, I don't , Neil. Only this one, taken on a camera phone, I think.
The daughter of an SRGC member found them growing in the grounds of her workplace and thought that they were orchids but wasn't sure. Sent me the pic to see what it might be. They're flowering right now, but I'm not sure where!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 13, 2012, 09:43:46 PM
Maggi.

If she can get here to speak to whoever is charge of grounds maintenance and ask them if they can avoid cutting the grass where the orchid/s are.  So that they can set seed probably another 8 weeks.  If it is only a few a bamboo stick in the ground next to the orchid will mark it so that it does not cut chopped off.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on June 13, 2012, 09:48:23 PM
That's exactly what I'm telling her, Neil. Hope we can get some protection for these wee gems.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Neil on June 13, 2012, 10:26:14 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 16, 2012, 05:53:25 PM
Dactylorhiza elata x D. majalis.

I was Googling for information but most are from photos from me.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 16, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Dactylorhiza elata x D. majalis.

I was Googling for information but most are from photos from me.
That's a superb hybrid Mark
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 16, 2012, 08:03:27 PM
It is! The tallest is 23 inches / 59cm with the spike about half open
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 17, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
Some more photos of elata x majalis, 'Harold Esslemont' and a lovely seedling.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: fredg on June 17, 2012, 12:49:38 PM
These little fellows keep popping up in the greenhouse.
My current thinking is that they're a Dactylorhiza foliosa hybrid.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 17, 2012, 02:03:34 PM
Fred very nice hybrid.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 17, 2012, 06:52:43 PM
very desirable
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: TC on June 18, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
Acouple of orchid pictures fro Logan gardens today
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on June 18, 2012, 08:29:50 PM
Tom, when I visited Logan in 1983 ( I remember the year because I bought Melita, my Fell pony near Dunlop) I saw a clump of a large Dactylorhyza which was the usual purple but with a completely white lip.  Do you know if it is still there?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 18, 2012, 08:48:27 PM
Tom they look very like 'Harold Esslemont'
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 18, 2012, 11:26:41 PM
Have to show you more photos of my frilly flowered seedling
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Brian Ellis on June 19, 2012, 09:00:00 AM
It is delightful Mark, and such a pretty colour too.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: TC on June 19, 2012, 01:50:34 PM
Roma
That was almost 30 years ago!  There are a few other clumps about but I did not look too closely.  The garden has been radically reworked since that time with extensive removals of old shrubs and new beds installed
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: ronm on June 20, 2012, 03:52:02 PM
My only contribution to this topic this year. I know its nothing special ( probably hybrid ) but we like its subtle pale pink colour. Snuggles in nice amongst all the green,  ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 21, 2012, 10:57:16 AM
That's pretty. :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on June 24, 2012, 01:17:33 AM
Here are a couple of the last dactylorhizas to bloom: first D. maculata and second an interesting hybrid, white with dark markings.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 24, 2012, 08:32:44 AM
Hi Claire,

I love that white one with purple markings. Is it yours?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Claire Cockcroft on June 24, 2012, 06:22:08 PM
Yes, the white one with purple markings is a spontaneous hybrid, like most in my garden.  It probably is a cross between D. maculata and D. fuchsii, though D. majalis is not that far away and the bees love all the dactylorhizas.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 24, 2012, 06:37:32 PM
I have one that is very similar to Claire's white Dactylorhiza
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 24, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
and this lovely spotty baby
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 25, 2012, 09:44:39 PM
Very pretty, I hope it grows into a nice clump for you. :) :) :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 25, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
Maren it's only a single tuber for now and self sowed in to a miniature Hosta
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 26, 2012, 02:19:06 AM
I was talking about your white one. Seems there are two spikes.  ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 26, 2012, 03:42:25 PM
I was talking about your white one. Seems there are two spikes.  ;D

12 spikes I think. Would you like one?
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 26, 2012, 07:31:07 PM
If it has a tuber and roots attached, yes please. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 26, 2012, 10:54:28 PM
If it has a tuber and roots attached, yes please. ;D ;D ;D

Now or later? There is one by itself that I could lift
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on June 27, 2012, 12:17:12 AM
Hi Mark,
let it finish flowering first. I'll be ready when you are. what can I offer you in return? :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: John Aipassa on June 27, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
The white Dactylorhizas are very nice indeed  :o.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 28, 2012, 04:02:07 PM
Hi Mark,
let it finish flowering first. I'll be ready when you are. what can I offer you in return? :)

A dactylorhiza I dont have would be good
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 28, 2012, 04:05:37 PM
Yesterday I was in a National Trust property - maybe I shouldnt say - and begged  ::) a giant Dactylorhiza they had in one of the walled gardens. I think it's a hybrid. It was lust at first sight. It's 27 inches / 80cm tall!!  :o They told me it arrived by itself or came in with the Geranium they had bought.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Graham Catlow on June 30, 2012, 07:27:44 PM
From today

D. 'Eskimo Nell'
Three views of an unknown.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on June 30, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
Your unknown looks like my elata x majalis
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maren on July 01, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
A dactylorhiza I dont have would be good

Sorry Mark, looking at your collection, I am the Cinderella of Dactylorhizas. How about a young cypripedium (4 years out of flask)? I've got some cracking Cyp. tibeticum ? I'd be happy to swap you one of those. :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Graham Catlow on July 01, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
Your unknown looks like my elata x majalis

Thanks Mark,
It certainly could be, as it was given to me as an unknown.

Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: angie on July 01, 2012, 11:39:13 PM
From today

D. 'Eskimo Nell'
Three views of an unknown.

Thats a wonderful display  8)

Angie  :)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on July 15, 2012, 10:25:14 PM
Yesterday I went for a walk to photograph Dactylorhyzas a short distance from my house.  I think they are all Dactylorhyza maculata, the spotted heath orchid.  They are mainly white or pale pink without much marking, all growing in woodland, most in boggy conditions, not in open heathland.
The first four are in the ponies' field and sometimes get eaten or trampled.   
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on July 15, 2012, 10:34:10 PM
A wood a 10 minute walk away.  The Dactylorhyzas are scattered over a wide area, mainly singly or small groups.  The ground is very wet this year.  It is a popular area with dog walkers so there is some trampling near the paths. I only saw one large group of any density.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Roma on July 15, 2012, 10:40:01 PM
Two in the wood behind my house.  The ground is drier here.  The Dactylorhyzas are pinker here than in  the other sites and have stronger markings.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on July 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
Nice set of photos.

I saw this giant D. maculata or hybrid yesterday
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on July 15, 2012, 11:17:45 PM
Is the law an a$$?

If I lift primroses and get caught I'm in trouble yet a road widening scheme can destroy them by the 1000s.

A working quarry 20 miles from my house has 7 species of orchid growing at the top of the working face. Many are destroyed as the quarry face moves back. I asked the Environment Agency if the orchids could be moved to a new site.

The answer was ....
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on July 15, 2012, 11:21:33 PM
Only under strict license conditions and each plant must be moved with a JCB shovel of soil.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Stephen Vella on July 16, 2012, 12:09:41 PM
sounds like lip service...I really dont think the local council workers or the environmental agency would even care about what they are destroying with the widening of the road ... if you think your doing something for the environment thats going to be buried what would one do??

and they talk about caring for the environment  ::)
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Tony Willis on July 16, 2012, 08:17:52 PM
About four years ago my next door neighbour who is not a gardener but does a marvellous job looking after my plants when we are away leaned over the fence with a flower spike in her hand and said'is this a weed'.

It was a dactylorhiza which had self sown in her garden and I explained they were quite nice and expensive to buy.

She then said 'I have a lot of of them which have just grown in the abandoned pot'.

Here they are now which demonstrates how easily they self sow in my wet climate.

I expect they are be hybrids of some sort and the seed has blown over the fence
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: mark smyth on July 16, 2012, 11:57:50 PM
Lovely.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: winwen on July 17, 2012, 07:39:37 AM
Two in the wood behind my house.  The ground is drier here.  The Dactylorhyzas are pinker here than in  the other sites and have stronger markings.
This is a remarkable fact that I can confirm. I do not know if Dactylorhiza maculata are "whiter" because of more moisture or lower pH-level of the soil but at least both together seem to "whiten" the flowers.
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Stephen Vella on July 17, 2012, 09:28:32 AM
Tony thats a nice one..love those weeds!
Title: Re: Dactylorhizas 2012
Post by: Maggi Young on July 17, 2012, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: Roma on July 15, 2012, 10:40:01 PM

    Two in the wood behind my house.  The ground is drier here.  The Dactylorhyzas are pinker here than in  the other sites and have stronger markings.

This is a remarkable fact that I can confirm. I do not know if Dactylorhiza maculata are "whiter" because of more moisture or lower pH-level of the soil but at least both together seem to "whiten" the flowers.

Erwin, that is a most interesting observation. 
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