Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Janis Ruksans on February 12, 2012, 09:39:30 AM
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This season for me will be very busy with travels. At present 6 travels are planned. I just returned from the first one to snow covered Greece. Several friends wrote me that it is too early for Crocuses even in Greece, but my target was one very special Crocus picture of which was found by Ibrahim on Internet and by attached data it was pictured only few years ago in January. May be just early date was reason why wrong name was attached - autumnal Crocus pallasii. Really it looked as representative of biflorus group, something resembling subsp. stridii but colour. Of course colour isn’t good feature for separating species but without seeing plant it was impossible to decide - is it subsp. stridii or something new.
We (I with my son in law) left Latvia at very frozen morning - outside temperature were minus 24 C. It gives problem with dressing - internet showed + 14 in Athens. Mostly I worried about my car left in long time parking at airport as temperature dropping well below minus 30 was offered. Really in my place it reached for two nights even minus 37 C.
We had intermediate stop in Kiev which great us with minus 33 and cold bus from plane to terminal. I something over-froze and got minor fewer for the first days in Greece. AVIS served us with good car replacing Suzuki-Jiminy with Ford Maverick (for price of Jiminy) and late in evening we were in good Hotel near beach in Itea not far from Delphi.
Next morning we drove inside mountains to look for some corms of Crocus speciosus which I needed for DNA research. It was not very difficult to find locality by given legend but only two days ago there were snowing and all around were covered with some 5-7 cm of snow. So we met the first fail during our trip. At some spot on lover altitudes which looked quite promising for crocuses I found large spots dug up by wild boars looking for some warms or corms. Ornithogalums seem not to be tasty as you can see on attached pictures. Fortunately roads were cleaned and we successfully drove between mounts of Vardhousia and Giona covered by deep snow from coast of Ionic Sea to coast of Adriatic Sea and late evening reached main target of our trip - small city of Ouranoupoli at bottle neck of Athos peninsula. Temperature at Ouranoupoli was + 18 C.
Janis
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Athos peninsula is very special place. Really it is state in state - semi-independent area inside Greece where special permit, something like to visa is requested. This is part of Greece where Monastic Republic of Ortodox church exist and there are Russian, Georgian, Greek monasteries. Trip must be planned early as only 10 non-Ortodox adult males are allowed to entry daily and no one women is allowed there at all. We sent our request for permission in November together with copies of Passports and got permission to entry 6th February (only 4 days allowed to stay there). When you arrive in Ouranopolis you must to receive “Diamonitrion” which cost 25,- Euro. We were there a day before and got reply that we can go only at requested dates. Weather was quite nice, so we decided to use it for few localities of Crocus biflorus stridii known to me, although I was quite doubtful for flowers - it seemed too late.
When we reached the most known locality E of Thessaloniki, we found that during 10 years the village borders so expanded that between two villages remained only around 50 meters long and may be 20 m wide spot where biflorus stridii could grow. There were no signs of forest reported by earlier visitors. There were quite long grass and as there were no hopes for flowers, I even not checked more the spot about presence of Crocuses. More to East from second village is large area used by militaries with signs - No photographing permitted. So we didn’t explore this place regardless of quite promising landscape. Really I was interested only in pictures as I had good samples of biflorus stridii from here. You can see cultivated plants on attached pictures.
Janis
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Weather was very nice, we still had plenty of time - so decided to go to North from where very special Crocus pallasii was reported. It was something risky (by my opinion to drive on muddy dirty roads after last days snow-melt, but our car perfectly passed all dawns and ups before we stopped for short lunch at very nice spot. After that we maid short walk and found short-grassed meadow with beautifully blooming Crocus chrysanthus. Quite uniform, not very densely and much more on just open NE faced spots between low shrubs. There were plenty of various ornithogalums, some alliums, muscari - but due size of collection now I’m generally interested only in crocuses. On this entry some pictures of C. chrysanthus. Altitude where it grows is around 600 meters.
Janis
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Outside is some snowing and my Internet don't work as I would like, so I splitted pictures for two entries
Janis
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Lying down for close-up pictures I suddenly noted leaves of crocus for which I went there - it was Crocus pallasii - not easy to spot between grass. The picture of leaves is made on foot pass with less grass. It is very interesting plant. By everything there must grow subsp. pallasii which is described from Crimea (Ukraina) and through Balcans goes to Turkey where it reach East. C. pallasii subsp. pallasii is characterised by very short neck of corm tunics (not exceeding 2 cm). Other subsp. with long neck are distributed in SE Turkey and reach Jordan. This one from Macedonia has long neck - very different from type subspecies. First information about this one I got from Simon and Chris (without exact locality). I can’t find picture of Crimean plants from where is described C. pallasii, but you can compare corm tunics of Macedonian plant and samples from Chios Island (Greece, but just near Turkish border) and Ariasos, near Antalya in Turkey.
Janis
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It seems that it was very easy - go and find, but regardless of good previous information from other travellers it took several hours to find this plant. Another early bloomer between Crocus chrysanthus but quite rarely seen was some Romulea sp. I’m not very keen in Romuleas although I’m growing few and this one I named as R. bulbocodium. I would be happy if someone could confirm this name or correct it.
Weather started to change and we turned back to Ouranopolis hoping to reach Monastery state following morning. Temperature dropped to + 6 C.
Janis
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Early morning on Monday we are going to office for permission. After paying 25,- Euros each it is issued immediately and then comes cold shower - no ship today. Ship will be only tomorrow. The ship is the single way how to reach Daphne from where entry to peninsula is allowed. Really on some maps are shown ground roads, too and we are driving to see how it looks. The road is closed by long wall topped by wire net and large information desk which you can see on attached picture. This in some way resembles Berlin Wall. Later we drove to East side, too but not went just to beach. Pictures how looks wall there we found on Internet - on Google Earth.
Having no possibility to reach our target on Monday we are going to neighbour peninsula - Sithonia. Weather dramatically changes, temperature drops even more, heavy rain and wind becomes stronger and stronger. There were few nice sites in Sithonia where could be crocuses but only various Ornithogalums we saw (without flowers). In evening wind speed exceeds 30 meters. In Latvia speed over 20 m are named as storm. In Ouranopolis is dangerous to go on streets. We are visiting closest restaurant where got excellent meal regardless of several times broke by cutting of electricity. Of course - house wine were excellent! Can’t recommend bottled Monastery wine from city shop - it was quite bad (leniently judging).
Janis
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Tuesdays morning great us with destroyed beach buildings, even freezer with refreshment lies on ground with face down. Some TV antenna landed just side by side with our car - fortunately not damaged it. Parking spot is in deep water. Fortunately my mountain boots is long enough and quite waterproof, so I can reach it only moderately getting water in. Pilgrim office again informs us - no ships today - you can go tomorrow. Sea still is very wavy. We have dilemma - what to do? Our flight tickets to home are for Friday. Wait for Wednesday? Back on Thursday? But if again no ship will be? Waves look very high and with present experience we are very doubtful about possibilities to reach our dream place tomorrow, too. So we decide to go to north - will try to reach C. biflorus alexandrii localities between Seres and Drama cities. Now I’m attaching three pictures from Internet which pushed me to go there. Every one can found them under name of Crocus pallasii - Iviron Monastery.
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Europe/Greece/Macedonia/Agion_Oros/Iviron_Monastery/page3.htm
I’m attaching souvenir picture of Iviron Monastery, too. On this you can sea several spots where crocuses could grow. May be next year I will try again but then, taught by experience, will buy airplane tickets with changeable return date. Weather so early in spring is so unpredictable. No one returned us 25,- Euro for unused entry permit.
Janis
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During those days we criss-crossed Chalkidiki part of Macedonia looking for localities where Crocuses could grow - found just 2 plants - most likely C. pulchellus pushing out leaves through deep layer of felt old Castanea leaves.
North direction looks lighter, with breaks in clouds, so we hope for some alexandrii there. But approximating Menikio mountain ridge weather changes and starts heavy snowing. Soon all roads are covered with 10 cm deep snow and we returns. There are some snowstorm and places where isn’t possible to see where road edges with roadside ditch. We try to go to Falakro, where sky seems lighter, but single difference is that there snow starts at some 200 meters higher altitude. So we turn back to Atheens. Now even pay road is covered by deep snow and single advantage is that road tax are not cashed. Late evening we are back in Itea to repeat attempt to find Crocus speciosus. It is more to South, behind mountain ridges. So may be… Again - evening wine was excellent.
Janis
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Sounds like a most interesting journey Janis. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your account. :)
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Thanks Ron.
The final part of my report:
Morning great us with bright sun. It is not very warm, but weather is nice, so our hopes rise. And really - searched locality is free from snow and… no Crocus was found there, too. Just started blooming snowdrops, there were leaves of several orchids, plenty of Muscari and Ornithogalums but during 3 hours long search I didn’t find any leaf of speciosus or robertianus reported from here. Most likely they start vegetation something later. I don’t think that they would be destroyed there.
We still have time and decide to go to Peloponnesus using new bridge over Golf. It is pay-bridge and surprisingly expensive - more than 13,-Euros. In evening we reach Mykenos. Weather again turned cloudy and cold. In hotel we left our jerseys on during night. In morning we visit ruins of Mykenian civilisation and there I’m picturing beautiful Hyacinthella leucophea growing just between more than 3000 years old house ruins. By road in direction to Athens some photos of Anemone coronaria were maid, but slightly higher again started snowing. After excellent night and dinner (+wine) in hotel at Thiva we reached airport where found that bus, metro traffic to city is closed for strike as well as ship traffics to Islands and post offices in airport for sending cards to friends is striking, too. Fortunately Airport functioned and at midnight we were back in minus 24 C in Riga. Fortunately my car started regardless of 2 nights with minus 37 during our holidays in Greece. Not as much as hoped but not so bad for such season and weather. 33% of success. Only one more lesson - possible strike must be taken in account when you go to Athos peninsula.
Janis
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Sorry i interupted Janis. :-[ Do you consider 33% of success a positive trip based upon your other experiences? If a person wished to follow in your footsteps on this trip would you suggest the same time of year or perhaps later?
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Sorry i interupted Janis. :-[ Do you consider 33% of success a positive trip based upon your other experiences? If a person wished to follow in your footsteps on this trip would you suggest the same time of year or perhaps later?
Of course - I would like better results but taking in account conditions - it was really very succesfull result. Really I never before had so short list to add to collection file. But as one was really new - it is excellent.
Time depends from your target - to visit Iviron - certainly end of January or very start of February would be good, but you know how crocuses depend from weather. Seems that Iviron crocus could be foundable after blooming too as close relative to stridii (most likely blue stridii even) - it flowers with developed leaves. All other crocuses at that time can be regarded as lucky accident. If you will go there - please try to find 3-5 corms for me - for herbarium will be needed 2, and 1-3 for collection. For DNA will be piece of leaf sufficient if properly dried.
Janis
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You have really peaked my curiosity for this area Janis, especially those Iviron crocus. Its difficult for me to get away much after this date as we have so much growing to do ( to feed ourselves year round ), however January to Early February is very doable for us. I am going to plan for 2013 definately. Thank you for your lead.
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Janis,
thank you for your adventure-filled travel report and the excellent photos.
Good luck and success for the next 5 remaining planned trips. :D
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Labvakar!
Great journey Janis
Looking forward to reports of the next ones. :)
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Janis, a very interestig and adventurous trip! The pallasii corm is very interesting! it can compensate the rest of the trip.
Now I know why the Agion crocus is not discovered untill. A very secretive habitations!
No one could imagine the stroms before months! it is just unlucky weather condition but it may be often in this time of the year!
I will wish you many more lucky trips!....
ibrahim.
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Janis, a very interestig and adventurous trip! The pallasii corm is very interesting! it can compensate the rest of the trip.
Now I know why the Agion crocus is not discovered untill. A very secretive habitations!
No one could imagine the stroms before months! it is just unlucky weather condition but it may be often in this time of the year!
I will wish you many more lucky trips!....
ibrahim.
Thank you, Ibrahim. Very hope it will realize (and Athos in another year, too).
Janis
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- so decided to go to North from where very special Crocus pallasii was reported.
I wonder if the directions Chris gave you were helpful in finding this particular Crocus pallasii or is it possible that it is more widely widespread within Greek Macedonia. ???
Since first finding these Crocus pallasii with long necks 3 years ago we have been wondering and musing with another forumist about whether this feature would be maintained in gardens.
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Simon, how are you? Much snow and ice?
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We've had about a metre for the last 2 months but spring is approaching ;D
Aberdeen must be tropical in comparison!!
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We've had about a metre for the last 2 months but spring is approaching ;D
Aberdeen must be tropical in comparison!!
I wouldn't go that far.... but we've had almost no snow at all. Just a dusting once or twice that was soon gone.
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Interesting trip-- and a good lesson on some of the additional problems one might encounter botanising - especially abroad!
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Hello Simon!
In my part of Balkans the pallasii has a very short neck not like on this photo! May be you heve more chance to find it on your side also!
This pallasii seems very interesting. The corm looks like mazziaricus but of course mazziaricus has more reticulate tunicks.
The second things, my pallasii has more numerous leaves!
İbrahim
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Hello Ibrahim
These Crocus pallasii had the longest necks we have seen- between and 7 and 12cm. In comparison the ones in Bulgaria are short necked- and this includes 3 diverse locations in northeast, central and southern Bulgaria.
Populations we have found elsewhere in northern Greece also had short necks.
From memory the Bulgarian and Greek C.pallasii do not have as many leaves as I have seen quoted for the Turkish subspecies.
Simon
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Janis, what a great trip you had. Even if not 100% successful, but that's always the risk if one travels at this time of the year.
Great to see photos of the Crocus aff pallasii that Simon and Chris have discovered 3 years ago. I had many interesting discussions with Simon about this plant and we also agreed that it is different to the standard pallasii. They told me that you will go to re-discover their finding and I had hope to see more photos of plant, corm and habitat, many thanks for that!
Simon, did you already send leaves for a DNA analysis? Any result? - ahhh and by the way: Welcome back to the forum :D
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Hello Simon!
In my part of Balkans the pallasii has a very short neck not like on this photo! May be you heve more chance to find it on your side also!
This pallasii seems very interesting. The corm looks like mazziaricus but of course mazziaricus has more reticulatE tunicks.
The second things, my pallasii has more numerous leaves!
İbrahim
I just compared leaves. Really plants from locus classicus (Crimea) has much wider leaves than Greek pallasii and Turkish pallasii, but neck in wild is short in Crimean plants as well as in Turkey.
Janis
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- so decided to go to North from where very special Crocus pallasii was reported.
I wonder if the directions Chris gave you were helpful in finding this particular Crocus pallasii or is it possible that it is more widely widespread within Greek Macedonia. ???
Since first finding these Crocus pallasii with long necks 3 years ago we have been wondering and musing with another forumist about whether this feature would be maintained in gardens.
I don't know your locality. May be I accidentally went to the same spot as you. I explored two slopes of same orientation, few kilometers one from other and on both I found it. But main indication plant was just chrysanthus in full bloom which I went to picture and I find first plant quite accidentally. Of course - I looked for it, as ecology (competition from other plants) was quite similar to that on Crimea, only on Crimea it grows in heavier clay and more flat land. On Chios and Ariasos - in very stony clay. Macedonian plants on much more sandy clay plenty with daze. At first look it seemed to me too light soil for wild crocuses. After that it was only question of good eyes.
Janis
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Janis I have really enjoyed the information about your trip it is most helpful and informative.
Having travelled in the area I realise how frustrating the weather can be,either too early and snow or too late and hot and dry and in both cases disappointment. Hit it right and it is wonderful.
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Janis, I thought that you had sent an email to Chris asking for a location for the long necked Crocus pallasii, which we found north east of Thessaloniki 2 years ago.
I will post 2 pictures we have of the flowers of this form of Crocus pallasii as soon as possible, but we have a storm tonight and a bad connection.
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Trying again to post pictures.
Success! Pictures of Crocus pallasii with longed necked corms from an area northeast of Thessaloniki.
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It looks very similar to plants from Chios and Turkey (by flower). I found mine plants NNE of Thessaloniki. It is far too general dirrection as there are plenty of small roads and a lot of possible localities. I visited two spots and on both it was. Now I sent leaves of it and allies for DNA.
Janis
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The flowers are also similar to 'traditional' short necked forms found elsewhere in northern Greece and throughout Bulgaria. Our 'longnecked' ones were in several localities in an area roughly NE of Thessaloniki, so presumably they have a wider range including the area where yours were found. I will attach pictures of other northern Greek and Bulgarian C.pallasii for reference- all have more deeply striped than the Crimean forms we have seen.
Attached are samples of C.pallasii pallasii from locations in Bulgaria and northern Greece:
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According the Simon's photos I can not find any differences from my pallasii photos which made in my part of Turkey . But my all pallasii have short neck!
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I agree Ibrahim. The only difference we noted was in the length of the bulb neck and the length of the persistent fibres around this formed from previous years leaves. This was between 7 and 12 cm compared with less than 2cm in Bulgarian C.pallasii pallasii.
We have yet to see if this feature is present in the next generation of garden propagated plants i.e we need to see if it is genetic and present in F1 seedlings to determine if it is part of these plants genetics or a response to growing in deep soils.
The major sites we know of for C.pallasii in Bulgaria are usually on shallow soils over limestone or sandstone. The long necked forms we found in northern Greece were found in deeper soils in grasslands and orchards.
Janis has found similar forms in another part of northern Greece- so clearly this form has a wider distribution in this area.
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The final part of my report:
In morning we visit ruins of Mykenian civilisation and there I’m picturing beautiful Hyacinthella leucophea growing just between more than 3000 years old house ruins.
Janis
Hi Janis
Wonderful and interesting trip, Thank you for shearing!
The Romulea you have seen is R. bulbucodium and the plant in the photo is not Hyacinthella but Bellevalia hyacinthoides.
Oron
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Simon,
Thanks for the photos, The pallasii on my part have lots of leaves an average 9-10 but the long necked pallasii seems to have 4-5 ! (on two photos of Janis)
I could attache few photos to show mines. (which are in the pots also in first year)
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I'm attaching mine pallasii from Crimea, Chios (Island at W coast of Tu), Labranda (SW Tu) and Ariasos (near Antalya). The single differene seem to be just in lenghth of tunic neck. May be you noted that type subsps (pallasii pallasii) in general has longer stigmatic branches well overtopping anthers but not allways - see picture of Crimean plants from same locality and grown in same pot. Would like to know from Simon - how looks flowers of long necked plants in this aspect. From pictures not so clear.
Janis
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I would say that from looking at other pictures I have of Bulgarian C.pallasii pallasii the anther and stigma lengths seems variable within populations.
The Crimean plant I have from you has the smallest stigmas and I have pictures of local pallasii, which show stigmas much longer than anthers, but never as much as in your specimen from Antalya.
As for leaf number and width I will not be able to check until the snow has melted.
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The snow is starting to melt here- so I should be able to make some measurements in the next few days. Hopefully we will soon hear the results of the DNA tests and know if this new C.pallasii form, which we first saw in November 2010 and found by Janis this month is significantly different genetically from C.pallasii pallasii.
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We are very interested to hear the DNA results.
( and pleased the snow is melting in Bulgaria , too!)
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It's great to be back out in the garden again and to see outdoor flowers again, Maggi.
Of the C.pallasii I was able to measure just now I have the following measurements:
Crocus pallasii pallasii ex Crimea leaf no. 8-13; leaf width less than 1mm; leaf length 4-5.5cm
Crocus pallasii pallasii ex NE Bulgaria leaf no. 9-13; leaf width 2mm; leaf length 4-8cm
Crocus pallasii pallasii ex SC Bulgaria leaf no. 9-14; leaf width 1mm; leaf length 4-8.5cm
The pallasii from NE Bulgaria are noticeably wider and with a much more obvious white stripe and ribbing on the back of the leaves.
The pallasii ex Crimea was bought as one from Crimea, but I now wonder if it is - as Janis said above that these have much wider leaves.
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Hello Sinchets,
Good to see the pictures.
Morphological differences are abundant and interesting.
The kind of similar observations I could make on C. sativus geocultivars.
I am starting to lift corms out of the ground and there are also many differences, such as corm size and daughter corm amounts.
DNA analyses have been mentionned in the thread, I am wandering if micro-differences in the genetic makeup of such variants would be detected ?
The analysis would need to be exhaustive.
If not, detecting existing minor mutations would come up to chance, wouldn't it ?
The differences I have observed between 2 C. sativus clones are so extreme that I am even questionning the fact that one of them is C. sativus (but it gives the best spice).
I would like to have DNA or biochemical analyses run on tissue samples, in order to rule out C. cartwrightianus...
Do you know about any lab that could run such investigations in the EU ?