Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: Oakwood on January 27, 2012, 11:51:37 AM
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Curiouse question - is it worth to make strong cultivars from these my snowdrop selections of different species from my travels? Are they really decorative/interesting/eye-catching not only for me but also for discerning dropofans? ;D
I suppose some of them could be very close to already existing known garden cultivars, if so - which are?
Thanks for sincere replies!
no 1 - with big round flowers
no 2 - Pagoda-type
no 3 - with green outer flower segments
no 4 - possibly infected with Phytoplasma ssp. (or possibly not infected and it is only such genetic disorder)
no 5 - with big propeller-like outers
no 6 - with broad inners and very small marks
no 7 - with long chlamys-like outers
Dima.
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and Galanthus plicatus selections...
no 8 - with bright-green very broad plastic-like structure leaves and round flowers
no 9 - with big long till 4,5 cm flower on long pedicel
no 10 - almost the same as no 9 but with more round and compact flower
no 11 - don't know why, but I like this one very much))
no 12 - my stable variegata
no 13 - with long pedicel and spherical ovary
no 14 - with curly leaf margins and basal marking on inners, compact habit
no 15 - with big round puckered flowers
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Dima, I believe that propagating these plants would be of the greatest use. It is always good to have more clones in cultivation to strengthen the gene pool with these plants which must be pretty tough ( except no. 4 !!!) and I think that new introductions of strong plants is always good.
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I love no.4 , id grow it ;D
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I love no.4 , id grow it ;D
Yes so would JohnF ;)
Some of the others are very attractive too Dima. As Maggi said new introductions of strong plants is always good - and they always come in handy for swaps ;D
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Thanks, Maggi! I agree with you - these all are from nature, should be stable in culture at least in further 100 years until get some virus or mutations ))))
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I love your green and puckered plicatus too. They look very healthy
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I love your green and puckered plicatus too. They look very healthy
Exactly, Hagen! All the old cultivars I've got from gardens were with mosaic-fragmented leaf color - the virus I suppose, especially in Trym, Wendy's Gold, I even don't know if the health plants of these cultivars exist yet somewhere.....
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No. 3 looks very curiously marked - do you have a close-up shot?
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No. 3 looks very curiously marked - do you have a close-up shot?
no, Alan - only this one distant view((
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Interesting to see these Dima. I think I like them most in this order:
2, 3, 4, 9, 11, 10, 15, 7, 6
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Cannot get excited about No 4 (sorry Brian!) but others all nice especially 6, 8 & 15.
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4 could be named "Specsavers" :P
some lovely plants among the rest, I really like 7,8,9
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field trip to Ukraine anyone?
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Beauty is always in the eye of the person looking. I like 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 15
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So that's just 1, 12, 13, and 14 not getting a vote so far Dima. You have made some nice selections. 8)
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OKay, deal!!! Now, I've got some idea on a matter! Thanks you all! ;)
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I didn't realise we were having a beauty contest! My finalists would be 3, 5, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15.
Definitely not No 4 Tony, sorry that could have been red too weighs bee fore :D
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Beauty is not the only criterion ... No 4 is the most unusual one and therefore fascinating. If it would grow and flower freely it could cause a sensation ... :)
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Dima
My favourites in order 15,6,7,& 4 would make great fundraisers for the garden there.
Can't see number 3 clearly enough and then only if it's a good-doer,
johnw
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Astonishing support for the difformed and dodgy... who knoew there was such a market for three-eyed kittens. :o
Thank goodness I know a sensible vet. :-X
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Astonishing support for the difformed and dodgy... who knoew there was such a market for three-eyed kittens. :o
Thank goodness I know a sensible vet. :-X
No more mention of cats in Nova Scotia these days please Maggi. Have you not heard about Ripples the cat that commandeered an Air Canada flight here and upgraded herself to first-class causing thousands in delays and missed flights.
johnw
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Some very elegant flowers, I'd certainly buy some of them, given a chance.
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OK)))) very interesting choice))) I would like to acquire from me No 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. ::)
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No 4 ! :D
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Some very elegant flowers, I'd certainly buy some of them, given a chance.
You're not the only one. :D
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OK, I'll be the fly in the ointment and no doubt everyone will quite rightly ignore this post. While I agree it's always good to introduce new stock of strong healthy plants; to propagate and distribute it, it is NOT right to give all of these cultivar names without first discovering whether there are others already named, visually identical? Does this not only add to the massive confusion within this one genus?
Or if you HAVE to give them cultivar names, for God's sake let them be something that identifies them fully for all time, such as 'Dima's A, B, C' or whatever.
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I like #s 5, 6, 7 & 15
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OK, I'll be the fly in the ointment and no doubt everyone will quite rightly ignore this post.
Or if you HAVE to give them cultivar names, for God's sake let them be something that identifies them fully for all time, such as 'Dima's A, B, C' or whatever.
Lesley - at least you would be a hoverfly - useful.
I agree with you there are far too many snowdrops that look like others. The Trym story is a case in point.
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Lesley, you do make a good point. I've been keeping out of this because I don't want to cause ill feeling, but I think I've made it pretty clear in the past that I'm not in favour of naming snowdrops quickly when they're still only a small clump in one locality before they've been properly trialled for garden worthiness and especially when they've recently come from the wild and it's not certain how they'll do in gardens. Often a snowdrop will be a healthy clump in the woodland where it originates but prove disappointing under the varied conditions of different gardens. I'm not saying to anyone don't name snowdrops if you think they're good, but I do advocate taking a bit of time over it and not rushing into naming too quickly. I've been raising snowdrops from seed for a lot of years and have a large number of very good snowdrops in the pipeline but I still haven't named so much as one. Numbering for identification purposes, as you suggest, is a good alternative in the early stages.
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I suspect that everyone has rushed to certain conclusions that may never have been Dima's intent.
I think he was asking if we thought any of the plants were nice enough to be worth bulking up, in a general way. I do not think it is his intention, or that of the botanic garden, to get involved in the snowdrop industry ::) ???
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Please everyone remember that Dima has never said that he will be naming these.
He has only ever asked if they are nice and if people would like to grow them in their gardens. :)
In his first post Dima sauid that he did not know if they are similar to other snowdrops already grown and is only asking if people like the ones he has found. :)
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Exactly, John.... we must have been thinking and posting at the same time. ;)
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You beat me to it Maggi - I kept re-wording mine so it took me 10 mins to write.
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I think Lesley and I were anticipating the possibility that, given the admiration expressed for some of the snowdrops, it might be tempting for them to be given names.
And I think we assumed that the title of the thread "Is it worth to become garden cultivars..." indicated that Dima was asking if they were good enough to become garden cultivars, which would inevitably involve them being named as you can't have a garden cultivar without a name.
Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick but I thought the title of the thread indicated that the end result, if people liked the snowdrops, could the naming of some or all of them as "garden cultivars". I just wanted to suggest some caution in that regard.
This is exactly why I held back from saying anything at the start as I knew it could end up going against me. I'll leave it alone now.
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Perhaps there's a semantic problem here. To me a "garden cultivar" is a clone selected out for growing in gardens and given a cultivar name to distinguish it. Perhaps Dima only meant (and others assumed he meant) "worth growing in gardens".
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Perhaps there's a semantic problem here. To me a "garden cultivar" is a clone selected out for growing in gardens and given a cultivar name to distinguish it. Perhaps Dima only meant (and others assumed he meant) "worth growing in gardens".
Perhaps he did, Martin... that's certainly how I read it. :)
All valuable comments, anyhow, I'm sure.
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Perhaps Dima only meant .. "worth growing in gardens".
I assumed he meant "worth trialling in a garden". It's easy to get taken with an attractive looking snowdrop but there is no guarantee it will come back the same next year - or even come back at all. I'm sure we all know that. And a snowdrop that sits there year-on-year but doesn't mange to bulk-up is never going to become anything more than a curiosity, whether or not it acquires a name.
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Yes, I read the original post - and the thread title - exactly as Martin did. I keep thinking of the UK show system whereby there is the requirement for a plant to have a cultivar name before it can gain an award. "Cultivar" to me therefore, is a plant, either man made or from the wild (and you already know I object to this), given a man made name. (And OMG I suppose I'm offending the PC adherents here too. Tough)
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Very true Alan. Yesterday someone came to see my snowdrops and I said the same. Why cant snowdrop A be as vigerous Wendy or these two unnamed plicatus
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Dima
I would be happy to trial all, except 4, in my garden ;D 8) ;D
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Since these snowdrops were collected in the wild, I assume they will have collection numbers and those could of course be used for identification for the time being, and any bulbs swopped or otherwise distributed could be sent out under those collection numbers just like any other wild-collected bulbs or seeds pending the naming of any clones which might eventually be considered worthy of naming.
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This forum benefits vastly from the great range of contributors. Not everyone who posts on the forum is a native English speaker (thank heavens) and so not everyone is going to be able to express themselves in English as precisely as they might have wanted. We will drive valued contributors away if we start reading meanings that may never have been intended into what people write.
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Alan I really don't think I or Lesley were picking anyone's contributions apart. Neither of us intended to be anything but helpful. If I have said anything to offend Dima then I will happily apologise to him and assure him that I meant no offence, only to offer advice.
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I also don't think we were picking Dima's contribution apart, especially not to its disadvantage. We simply interpreted his comments differently from how others interpreted it. I thought that in subsequent comments from all who HAVE commented, any differeces in interpretation have been resolved and we can all surely accept that some of us think differently or hold dissimilar opinions from those held by other Forumists.
The great joy of this Forum is that so many people from all over the world feel able to express their thoughts on so many subjects. I would hate to see anyone castigated or made to feel he/she should back away because of some small mis-understanding.
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Sorry, Lesley, Martin, I overstated my case and have modified what I originally wrote in an attempt to correct this.
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so, what a hot discussion on a matter! :P
Lesley, Martin, no, you didn't offend me at all! I just want to know if this selections I found in nature in some time are beautiful or interesting from an aesthetic point of view? and if there are now some known garden cultivars that are similar to those found. ;D I don't intend to make them legal cultivars with strict names! nor enter into a semantic debates with native English speakers 8)
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Hello Dimitri. I'm very happy that you haven't been offended by this discussion. It wasn't intended to be a criticism of you and your snowdrops, most of which I think are very attractive and which I'm sure may have the potential to make very good garden plants. On here, as in any online forum, it's sometimes easy for comments which are intended to be friendly and helpful advice to be taken as unfriendly criticisms when people are writing quick comments and we can't hear their voice or see their face to help us understand their mood and their feelings. It happens a lot, not just in this discussion.
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Yes, I wrote something out-of-turn and stupidly raised the temperature of the debate by several notches; apologies again.
Back to the plants, I want to say something in defence of No. 4. Whilst I think it is ugly if evaluated as a conventional snowdrop, it still has a kind of beauty in its own right and I would be happy to grow it in my garden. So long as it isn't contagious!
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Back to the plants, I want to say something in defence of No. 4. Whilst I think it is ugly if evaluated as a conventional snowdrop, it still has a kind of beauty in its own right and I would be happy to grow it in my garden. So long as it isn't contagious!
Alan, I'm not sure it is phytoplasma, equally it could turn to be genetic disorder! The same whole green flower habit is for garden tulip varieties I'm growing - see here below, the central one variety is pure green calyx-like habit, so, what is it???
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Sorry, Lesley, Martin, I overstated my case and have modified what I originally wrote in an attempt to correct this.
Sorry I may have over-reacted a bit to your comments. I've also edited my reply.
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... I think I've made it pretty clear in the past that I'm not in favour of naming snowdrops quickly when they're still only a small clump in one locality before they've been properly trialled for garden worthiness and especially when they've recently come from the wild and it's not certain how they'll do in gardens.
This very thing was emphasized by Joe Sharman on Saturday at Blacksmith's Nursery where he showed many from his breeding programme which were still unnamed as they needed to stand the test of time.
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Wise words from Joe but I cannot help thinking of a particular example close to my heart that Joe and I collected in 2004 and which went on sale (in very limited numbers) in 2008. He must have started with two bulbs and chipped one whilst keeping the second under observation. So he had three seasons to reach the conclusion that it was garden-worthy and had built up enough stock to sell a few in the fourth season. That's frighteningly efficient (and he's right, it is a good doer).
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I'm not sure it is phytoplasma
Zub do you have any possibility to make a microbiological test?
And of course I am the first in the list of those who want your snowdrops. ;)
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Olga
Perhaps I was too subtle when I said I would be happy to trial the snowdrops in my garden ;)
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Olga
Perhaps I was too subtle when I said I would be happy to trial the snowdrops in my garden ;)
Yes! 8)
I like plants with a history. And I would be glad to tell about snowdrop "This one nice variety was found bu my friend in Krymea in 200...". Even if it is similar to kinds already exist.
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So pleased we're all friends again. :D
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Hello Dimitri. I'm very happy that you haven't been offended by this discussion. It wasn't intended to be a criticism of you and your snowdrops, most of which I think are very attractive and which I'm sure may have the potential to make very good garden plants. On here, as in any online forum, it's sometimes easy for comments which are intended to be friendly and helpful advice to be taken as unfriendly criticisms when people are writing quick comments and we can't hear their voice or see their face to help us understand their mood and their feelings. It happens a lot, not just in this discussion.
Martin, I agree with you, the cultivar must be stable in culture, must have some useful properties, must be resistant to diseases, must be compared on similarity with other already known registered cultivars and should be tested in a culture in several gardens in different climatic regions before to be named and registered.
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Olga
Perhaps I was too subtle when I said I would be happy to trial the snowdrops in my garden ;)
Yes! 8)
I like plants with a history. And I would be glad to tell about snowdrop "This one nice variety was found bu my friend in Krymea in 200...". Even if it is similar to kinds already exist.
OLGA!!!! Hello! Nice to hear from you)))) МИР ТРУД МАЙ!!! ;D
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...The same whole green flower habit is for garden tulip varieties I'm growing - see here below, the central one variety is pure green calyx-like habit, so, what is it???
At least the green tulip is still recognisably a tulip whereas, from the flower, your green snowdrop isn't really recognisably a snowdrop.