Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: WimB on January 17, 2012, 08:50:55 PM

Title: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 17, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
This Dactylorhiza came up in a friends garden next to a Spiranthes she had bought. Now she's wondering what species it might be and since I'm far from an expert in orchids I thought maybe someone here might know which species this is.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 17, 2012, 09:14:35 PM
I can't really tell I'm afraid but maybe it is like the Dacts I grow, which seed about all over the garden and lawn. I counted over 100 flowers last month, on plants which I never placed there; in the lawn, in pots, in cracks in a concrete path, in plants in the garden. I grow D. elata (very few seedlings), D. foliosa (a few more), and D. maculata and D. m. ssp fuchsii, masses from both. All welcome to me though. I actually was able to pick a bunch for the house!
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Hoy on January 17, 2012, 09:56:06 PM
Looks like Dactylorhiza maculata to me.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Shadylanejewel on January 18, 2012, 02:58:14 AM
I agree it looks like one I bought a few years ago which was labeled Dactylorhiza maculata

Unfortunately, mine did not come back up the next year.  I'd love to have them all over like Lesley.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 18, 2012, 06:39:00 AM
Lesley, they can be very prolific indeed but I never seem to be able to tell the species apart. Must be nice to have so many that you're able to pick for the house!

Thanks for the determination, Trond and Julie!
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 18, 2012, 09:46:07 AM
What I have as maculata has wider leaves and large, dark spots, sometimes with spaces in their middles, like a leopard's footprint. What I had originally as fuchsii but have since read is mac. ssp fuchsii, has narrower foliage (and frequently paler flowers) and smaller, paler spots, sometimes just a few spots. I find the wildlings can stand incredible drought. Even when they have no water literally for several months at a time and the plant and frequent grasses or other weeds in the pots have died, the orchids still come up again the next year.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: gote on January 18, 2012, 09:48:56 AM
I believe that the genus Dactylorhiza has been subject to too much splitting. Originally they were all Orchis maculata L.
Besides that, it is necessary to look at the whole plant. including shape of leaves. The main way to differ out D. fuchsii or (D.m.v. fuchsii if you are a lumper) is the shape of the lowest leaf.
A complication is that juvenile plants may differ from mature plants. A narrow leaf solid stem specimen turned into a wide leaf hollow stem specimen in two years - and these characteristics were used in the key!
Said all that, I agree that it may well be maculata.
Cheers
Göte
PS.
You may be able to read this link: http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/mono/orchida/dacty/dactmac.html
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Hoy on January 18, 2012, 11:33:47 AM
Or you can read this: http://swepub.kb.se/bib/swepub:oai:lup.lub.lu.se:548374?tab2=abs&language=en
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Shadylanejewel on January 18, 2012, 06:56:05 PM
The nursery where I bought my now deceased D. maculata from mentioned they hybridize quite easily. 
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Maren on January 29, 2012, 10:54:51 AM
Exactly, that's why it is so difficult to identify them, even if you have a decent book to help key them out. In my humble and probably confused opinion, it helps to know where they grew to narrow it down. But if it's a bought plant, the chance of identification lessens. I reckon it's a D. maculata x fuchsii, but I wouldn't put money on it. ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 29, 2012, 11:03:36 AM
Thanks for the help and the links!

Here's a pic of the leaves, maybe that can help to narrow it down a bit!
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Hoy on January 29, 2012, 11:15:23 AM
Thanks for the help and the links!

Here's a pic of the leaves, maybe that can help to narrow it down a bit!
Don't think that is possible from that picture! fuchsii and maculata are regarded as subspecies of a very variable species. Take a look here:

http://swepub.kb.se/bib/swepub:oai:lup.lub.lu.se:548374?tab2=abs&language=en
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 29, 2012, 11:36:39 AM
Thanks for the help and the links!

Here's a pic of the leaves, maybe that can help to narrow it down a bit!
Don't think that is possible from that picture! fuchsii and maculata are regarded as subspecies of a very variable species. Take a look here:

http://swepub.kb.se/bib/swepub:oai:lup.lub.lu.se:548374?tab2=abs&language=en

Thanks Trond,

so the name-tag should probably say "Dactylorhiza maculata complex"
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 29, 2012, 08:35:01 PM
I was going to suggest D. maculata Group but complex probably fits better. Don't lose sleep over it Wim. ;D

(I'm feeding the Ping seedlings on those tiny black insects sometimes found on peaches (in this case) or field mushrooms. The Pings are doing exceptionally well on them, just some sprinkled over the pots each weekend.) :P
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 29, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
I was going to suggest D. maculata Group but complex probably fits better. Don't lose sleep over it Wim. ;D

I won't, don't worry....  ;) I've never lost sleep over promiscuous plants which can't keep to their own species, as long as they're beautiful, all's well!  :P

(I'm feeding the Ping seedlings on those tiny black insects sometimes found on peaches (in this case) or field mushrooms. The Pings are doing exceptionally well on them, just some sprinkled over the pots each weekend.) :P


They'll like that a lot, fruitflies are one of their favorite "prey"....last year Luc G. used some pings to catch away the fruitflies which are attracted to the mix in whcih his Pleione's grow, I heard they work perfect for that.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 29, 2012, 09:07:06 PM
I don't have any problem with whiteflies (no greenhouse) but perhaps those people who do, should grow some Pinguiculas with their tomatoes? ;D Oh dear, here I am again way out on another subject. ::)
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Maren on January 29, 2012, 09:19:22 PM
That's what I do, Leslie, I 'sprinkle' my Pleione house with pinguiculas, placed on upturned pots so that they are a bit higher than the pleiones and attract passing visitors. It works a treat. I just have to remember to put the pinguiculas into my tropical greenhouse for the winter as they do not like the low temperatures my pleiones can manage. :)
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 29, 2012, 09:20:55 PM
That's what I do, Leslie, I 'sprinkle' my Pleione house with pinguiculas, placed on upturned pots so that they are a bit higher than the pleiones and attract passing visitors. It works a treat. I just have to remember to put the pinguiculas into my tropical greenhouse for the winter as they do not like the low temperatures my pleiones can manage. :)

Maren, you could use Pinguicula's from moderate climate zones!
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Hoy on January 29, 2012, 09:50:49 PM
I've often seen in the wild that P. vulgaris takes ants too. However, they're not any good flycatchers in winter when they are completely dormant ;)
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 29, 2012, 10:24:02 PM
Mine are fron seed Wim sent to me and are still tiny but well, and numerous. Only grandiflora so far but I'm hoping vulgaris will germinate soon. These seem very hardy or at least fully so in my climate. I say one (vulgaris?) both on the north English moors and on Mt Snowdon so I guess it would be tough enough.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 30, 2012, 07:51:24 AM
I've often seen in the wild that P. vulgaris takes ants too. However, they're not any good flycatchers in winter when they are completely dormant ;)

That's perfect Trond, no fruitflies in the Pleione-pots during winter  ;) (not here anyway  :P)

Mine are fron seed Wim sent to me and are still tiny but well, and numerous. Only grandiflora so far but I'm hoping vulgaris will germinate soon. These seem very hardy or at least fully so in my climate. I say one (vulgaris?) both on the north English moors and on Mt Snowdon so I guess it would be tough enough.

They are really tough, Lesley. And they really need a rest during winter, when they make hibernacula to get through the low temperatures
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: Ulla Hansson on January 30, 2012, 11:12:12 AM
When I was a kid so I picked bouquets of Pinguicula vulgaris and Primula farinosa, which I gave to the mother. I loved to pick flowers, but mother was not  fond of taking care of all the bouquets that we siblings picked.
P. vulgaris is perfectly hardy.
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: gote on January 30, 2012, 11:39:12 AM
Returning to the subject:
It is quite admissible to call it Dactylorhiza maculata since that would cover all four subspecies You only need to say 'complex' if you are a splitter. Stålberg’s thesis is admirable but it is not helpful in identifying the subspecies – he takes the identification as already set.

The picture of the leaves is, however to some extent helpful since typical ssp fuchsii has a more or less strap-shaped lowest leaf with rounded end. This is clearly here not the case. D. m. maculata is tetraploid but usually smaller than ssp fuchsii. The type specimen of Dactylorhiza maculata can be seen in the Linnean Herbarium under Orchis maculata. It has markedly more narrow leaves than in the picture. This is also my observation here in Sweden. The local specimen – which for geographical reasons should be maculta as defined by von Linné - show the same leaf shape as the type specimen. The leaves in the picture are nearly as wide as D. majalis and, without flower, this is my first guess. The width of the leaf is unfortunately of limited help since a garden-grown well-fed will have wider leaves than a wild one.

Many orchids are very promiscuos and hybrids are common. However, since D.m.m is tetrapoid and D.m.f is diploid, that particular hybrid is not very common.

The dactylorhizas we are discussing all have three-lobed lip.  D.m.m and D. m. foliosa have have very shallow lobing just as in the picture but foliosa is usually unspotted. D.m.m. also has (when young) this typically pyramidal inflorence. My guess is thus (again) a very well fed Dactylorhiza maculata ssp maculata. (Or possibly a young D. majalis which also has shallow lobes)

Cheers
Göte
Title: Re: Which Dactylorhiza?
Post by: WimB on January 30, 2012, 04:29:19 PM
Many thanks Göte. I'll let my friend know!
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