Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Kees Jan on November 10, 2011, 06:01:56 PM
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Here I will upload a selection of Crocus pics from eastern Turkey, which I visited two times this autumn. First some pics from Nemrut Dag National Park near Malatya, a facinating place. Could anyone tell me the name of the plant with silver leaves? It may be Tanacetum densum ssp. amanum, but I'm not sure.
The local people cut branches of Quercus in this area, probably for firewood. They make nest like structures on the ground and in Quercus trees, probably to store and dry the branches.
Next are Mithridates and Herakles, who presumably is welcoming Mithridates into the afterlife (Arsemia, Nemrut Dağı Milli Parkı)
The first crocus photographed during my 2nd trip this autumn was on Kubbe Gecidi. It seems to be Crocus cancellatus (first 2 crocus pics). Initially we thought this was Cr. pallasii which is apparently reported from the Kubbe Gecidi, but it all seems cancellatus to me, possibly in its subspecies damascenus. Another Crocus found on this site was Cr. kotschyanus, presumably in its subspecies kotschyanus, although this particular specimen (last crocus picture) seems to be very similar to ssp. cappadocicus.
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On the Kubbe Gecidi we found kotschyanus ssp.cappadocius
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Thanks Arthur. That may well be correct. Here is another picture, perhaps slightly less typical of ssp. cappadocicus? I think Kubbe Gecidi must be not very far from the 'border' between ssp. kotschyanus and ssp. cappadocicus.
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Here I will upload a selection of Crocus pics from eastern Turkey, which I visited two times this autumn. First some pics from Nemrut Dag National Park near Malatya, a facinating place. Could anyone tell me the name of the plant with silver leaves? It may be Tanacetum densum ssp. amanum, but I'm not sure.
The local people cut branches of Quercus in this area, probably for firewood. They make nest like structures on the ground and in Quercus trees, probably to store and dry the branches.
Next are Mithridates and Herakles, who presumably is welcoming Mithridates into the afterlife (Arsemia, Nemrut Dağı Milli Parkı)
The first crocus photographed during my 2nd trip this autumn was on Kubbe Gecidi. It seems to be Crocus cancellatus (first 2 crocus pics). Initially we thought this was Cr. pallasii which is apparently reported from the Kubbe Gecidi, but it all seems cancellatus to me, possibly in its subspecies damascenus. Another Crocus found on this site was Cr. kotschyanus, presumably in its subspecies kotschyanus, although this particular specimens (last crocus picture) seems to be very similar to ssp. cappadocicus.
I was on Kubbe gec three times but allways in spring or early summer. There I found three crocus species - spring biflorus, very nice, may be even new, and two autumnals - pallasii and cancellatus. I didn't see there kotschyanus, but it isn't easy to found them without flowers. By flower it looks as cappadocicus, but for identificaton you must to check position of corm in soil. In type subspecies it is lying upright (horizontally), in cappadocicus - on side (vertically).
Janis
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Hi Janis,
We looked at 2 kotschyanus corms to check the orientation. One was on its side and the other one was normal (horizontal)! According to Flora of Turkey in ssp. kotschyanus it could be either normal or vertical if I remember correctly. I have the impression that the kotschyanus at this site was quite a bit larger than in a kotschyanus cappadocius population that I visited the next day, more like ssp. kotschyanus as I have seen further west. Perhaps the Kubbe Gecidi population is somewhat intermediate between the two subspecies?
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Hi Kees Jan,
All my cappadocicus are from Ziyaretpesi gec and surroundings. There corms are distinctly lying on side. I don't know how far extend cappadocicus area. May be Kubbe gec. is place where both subsp. diverge and grow together. Type subsp. bulbs distinctly are positioned upright. On side lies corms of subsp. hakkariensis and suworovianus (now raised in range to species level). Did you see some Crocuses closer to Nemrut-dag? Never found there any Crocus leaves on roadsides after Kubbe gec. Last time when I was there in spring there were too much snow and we turned back. Other trips were in early summer. Did you used Hotel on Waterfall? There is fantastic owner - speeking only kurdish but serving phantastic trout and hotel is very good and cheap.
On Gulek bog. you can find together C. reticulatus (yellow anthers) and hittiticus (black anthers). In direction to South there are only hittiticus, in dirrection to North - only retiuculatus. I never catched there blooming time of this early crocus and so I judge only by corms collected in leaves. So not so easy to judge about proportion. Next spring hope to visit this locality again although there are great hydroprojects realised changing and destroying habitats and populations now.
Janis
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I did not see any crocuses closer to Nemrut Dag. We stayed in a cafetaria at Arsemeia in Nemrut Dag NP because we were very late. A very large 'room' with windows on all sides, about 10 by 30m, obviously used for bus groups during the tourist season. We approached Nemrut Dag from the south. On the next day we drove north through the mountains west of Nemrut Dag (small road) to Kubbe Gecidi, but did not see any crocuses until we were about two km from Kubbe Gecidi.
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Kees, I think you are right about the silver plant, Tanecetum densum amanum. Used to be Chrysanthemum haradjanii.
A most interesting group of companions you've chosen to view your crocuses with. :)
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Kees I am realy enjoyed your trip and with lots of nice pictures! Which is still too far to do for me. I admired the karduchorum small flowers with long styles :)
You didn't write the locations of the plants! on your web but I saw also few pictures of pallasii turcicus for surely!
Thanks for all these wonderfull photos.....
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Yes, we also photographed pallasii turcicus Ibrahim. I'm still busy adding the plant names to my pictures so it will take a week or two before my photo gallery 'Eastern Turkey October 2011' is complete. In the mean time I will upload a selection of the highlights from both trips here!
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Thanks for the name Lesley. Companions on Nemrut Dag were particularly old if I may say so, the statues on Nemrut Dag date back to before Christ...
Here are some more Crocuses. First Crocus kotschyanus ssp. cappadocicus, photographed at Ziyaret Gecidi. The third picture is also kotschyanus, but it looks different form kotschyanus cappadocicus from Ziyaret and the colour is wrong for (kotschyanus)suworowianus. This was photographed much further north at dusk, so not a good picture, but in retrospect a very interesting population.
Also photographed further north (Bogrudelik Gecidi) are what I suppose must be Crocus pallasii ssp. pallasii (pics 4 and 5) and Crocus cancellatus, possibly in its subspecies damascenus (pictures 6 and 7). I sometimes struggle to separate those two species though when the styles are not quite typical...
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I was on Kubbe gec three times but allways in spring or early summer. There I found three crocus species - spring biflorus, very nice, may be even new, and two autumnals - pallasii and cancellatus. I didn't see there kotschyanus, but it isn't easy to found them without flowers. By flower it looks as cappadocicus, but for identificaton you must to check position of corm in soil. In type subspecies it is lying upright (horizontally), in cappadocicus - on side (vertically).
Janis
Janis, my 9th picture from Kubbe Gecidi was a particular good plant. Is it a pallasii form or cancellatus?
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I was on Kubbe gec three times but allways in spring or early summer. There I found three crocus species - spring biflorus, very nice, may be even new, and two autumnals - pallasii and cancellatus. I didn't see there kotschyanus, but it isn't easy to found them without flowers. By flower it looks as cappadocicus, but for identificaton you must to check position of corm in soil. In type subspecies it is lying upright (horizontally), in cappadocicus - on side (vertically).
Janis
Janis, my 9th picture from Kubbe Gecidi was a particular good plant. Is it a pallasii form or cancellatus?
It certainly looks as cancellatus.
Janis
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Here are a few others photographed during the 2nd half of September, which is a good time to go to NE Turkey for Crocus. I was quite surprised to learn they flower so early ::), but given the altitude of the mountains it is perhaps not so surprising after all since autumn arrives early high in the mountains, compared to low altitude Mediterranean locations for instance.
First Crocus kotschyanus ssp. suworowianus, now regarded as a species in its own right, C. suworowianus, photographed on Cam Pass. The second picture is the local endemic Cr. karduchorum, photographed south of Lake Van in a trouble area :( >:(. Finally suworowianus again, this time in a different form :P, photographed near Zigana Pass...
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Kees,
This is a best form of C. suworowianus which I have seen before. But unfortunately this crocus doesn't like my rainy and short winther climate, while in the wild it stay in almost half of the year under snow! I have severel forms of this crocus from different locations since four years but never seen any sng of flowers :(
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Still on the subject of kotschyanus... Here are some examples from a most interesting population west of Erzincan. This seems so be in an area between the documented distributions of ssp. suworowianus and ssp. cappadocicus. I have seen thousands of plants of suworowianus further east, but never came across a lilac one.
The last three pics are speciosus ssp. ilgazens :).
My powerpoint presentation on autumn flowering bulbs of Turkey is just about ready now :) and includes quite a few of the species photographed last autumn during my two trips to eastern Turkey... Just in time for the meeting of the Dutch AGS on November 19th. I'm happy to repeat this presentation elsewhere by the way.
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My powerpoint presentation on autumn flowering bulbs of Turkey is just about ready now :) and includes quite a few of the species photographed last autumn during my two trips to eastern Turkey... Just in time for the meeting of the Dutch AGS on November 19th. I'm happy to repeat this presentation elsewhere by the way.
I've made a note of that, Kees!
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Happy to revisit Scotland any time :). Let's go on with the diary...
First there is some type of Crocus cancellatus, photographed north of Erzincan. I'm not sure cancellatus was previously reported from this part of northern Turkey :o. Has anyone else came across cancellatus in this area?
The bird is a Hooded Crow, very common in Greece and Turkey.
Harvest of sugar beet is very labour intensive and takes place during autumn crocus season, quite a different type of 'bulbous' plant...
Next is a view of the city of Erzurum and the beginning of winter in the Palandöken mountains. Four weeks earlier there was no snow at all in the Palandöken, Crocus suworowianus was in flower at that time but must be covered by snow when this photo was taken.
Finally a Seljuk stone bridge that was built in the 12th century AD and was photographed at Köprüköy. There are several places in Turkey named Köprüköy, but this is the one along the Silk Road from Erzurum to Doğubayazit, which was to be our next destination, at the foot of Mount Ararat.
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Kees
that bridge brings back some happy memories,it is a wonderful structure set in a grand landscape.
I return from SW Turkey tomorrow after a very disappointing trip. It has been brown and parched and the rain has just started today.
The news is showing very heavy snow in the East of the country and it is -8c at Van
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A wonderful bridge indeed Tony. Unfortunately Mt. Ararat was in the clouds during my October visit to Turkey, so we did not see it at all although we could nearly touch it from Doğubayazit.
Next day we moved on from Doğubayazit to Bitlis, following the northern shore of Lake Van. We passed Ercis on our way, which was unfortunately hit very hard by the recent earthquake. Between Ercis and Tatvan we passed the Seljuk city of Ahlat, with its famous cemetery.
Next we visited Nemrut Dag NP near Tatvan (a different Nemrut Dag NP, not the same as this thread started with!). I show a picture of Lake Van and Tatvan, photographed from Nemrut Dag. Nemrut Dag NP near Tatvan is an enormous volcanic crater, quite SPECTACULAR :o !
South of Lake Van we photographed one of the most unsual of al crocuses, C. karduchorum, which prefers scrub and light woodland. First a picture of its habitat. Crocus karduchorum is not all that much photographed in the wild since few people seem to go to the SE to photograph autumn-flowering bulbous plants. The Greek Tortoise (Testudo graeca) was photographed at a karduchorum site :)!
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Here are shots taken in mid- May of Nemrut Dag crater and a view of Tatvan
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Inside Nemrut-dag (Van) crater - 4th June this summer.
Janis
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Fellows, these photographs are all VERY beautiful, thank you. Is there something about the Turkish air tha allows such spectacular pictures?!!
What a pity that we see these in the same period as there has been so much earthquake activity in eastern Turkey.
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Fellows, these photographs are all VERY beautiful, thank you......
Yes agreed. The important bit, for this less than intrepid traveller, is that I can see them without all the bits in the middle I couldn't cope with, like heights, for example. ;D
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A big, big thank you to you, Kees,
and also to Marijn for these photos of species
that I have never seen before from the wild!!!
If I ever find the time to finish my book/website
I would really like to use your photos if you don't mind.
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or like captivity David ::) :o >:( :( :o... Photographing seems to be a very suspicious activity in the SE, Marijn and I had a most interesting experience and we were relieved to catch our flight home just in time ::)... We went to the SE to photograph C. kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis and C. karduchorum, but things are rather tense. Ofcourse we were very happy to find and photograph these plants and I'm very happy to share them on my favourite forum :D!
From Bitlis we travelled further west via Diyabakir to Sanliurfa. Along the way we managed to photograph Crocus pallasii ssp. turcicus (first 4 pics), which was a 'new' subspecies for us, and also C. cancellatus ssp. damascenus, another subspecies that we had not seen before :D. Some of the latter in cooler and probably moister conditions at the base of rocks were further advanced than others and started to produce leaves.
Sternbergia colchiciflora was the only Amaryllidaceae that I found during my two visits to eastern Turkey this autumn.
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Kees, I need hardly tell you how relieved we all are that you and Marijn are safely returned to tell the tale of your travels... how I would enjoy the Eastern Turkey Lecture Day on 19th November with the NRV.... have a wonderful time, I'll be thinking of you all.
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Your picture made inside Nemrut Dag crater is quite interesting Janis. It seems like the volcano was quite active when you were there last June ;) :o ;)!
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Your picture made inside Nemrut Dag crater is quite interesting Janis. It seems like the volcano was quite active when you were there last June ;) :o ;)!
We couldn't drive in because road at craters rim was cutted be stream from melting snow - so we walked in, but returned before reaching lake as found it too much time taking enterprice. Bloomed phantastic Iris caucasica, but Fritillarias were in seed. No Crocuses at Nemrut-dag we found.
But this isn't reason for this entry. Sorry, Kees Jan, but on all pictures of your last picture-entry are only Crocus pallasii. C. cancellatus has many-branched stigma.
Janis
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Thanks for your correction Janis although I'm somewhat confused and still tend to think it is more likely an unsual form of cancellatus. We initially thought it was pallasii because of the style, but had a look at a corm to be sure and thought that was quite typical for cancellatus ssp. damascenus, which is known from this particular area according to Flora of Turkey. We did not check the corm of the actual plant that I showed above though, so perhaps the two species grow sympatrically here. On the other hand, here are 2 pictures of the very same plant that show that the style is divided into more than three segments. So I'm still confused ??? ::) ??? :-\, nature can be very complex and sometimes doesn't quite fit our man-made systems. What do you think...?
By the way, are pallasii and cancellatus closely related at all, or is it just us that struggle to separate the less typical style forms of cancellatus and pallasii? We also struggled with some of the plants at Kubbe Gecidi, as mentioned early on in this thread I believe.
In any case we found typical cancellatus ssp. damascenus later so we did see it elsewhere, whatever the status of the pics labelled cancellatus ssp. damascenus that I showed so far in this thread. I wil share some pics of typical cancellatus ssp. damascenus later, but I'm still busy selecting and labelling these particular pictures though, a time-consuming job!
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I found some cancellatus mazziaricus with undivided style, but occasional plants only. By flower shape yours really more looks as cancellatus. But to decide - you must check tunics. During my trip to Greece I was in similar situation - supposed that plant seen by me is abnormal form of hadriaticus up to checking it's tunics showing typical cancellatus reticulation. I well understand Erich Pasche who allways accents that identification by pictures only in crocuses is almost impossible :( (with few exceptions, of course). You must check all features.
Janis
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I suppose this is more typical of Crocus cancellatus ssp. damascenus... By the way, we found VERY few plants in which the anthers filaments exceeded the style in length, this plant is an exception. This seems to be surprising, since this is said to be a feature of this subspecies in Fl of Turkey if I'm correct. Perhaps not the most important distinghuising feature of this subspecies...
Sorry to deviate from Crocus in this thread, but this is Biarum carduchorum, identified from our photographs by an expert on the subject. I find the Turkish Araceae a difficult group of plants to identify and I find it difficult to get good publications on this subject. For anyone using 'The bulbous plants of Turkey and Iran' (AGS publication) it is important to bear in mind that it shows only a small sample of the many Biarum species that can be found in Turkey. During 5 autumn trips in Turkey I found 5 species, but there are many more. Unfortunately we did not manage to find the bizar B. davisii ssp. marmarisense on the west coast last year.
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Kees, I enjoy so much with your nice pictures from wild. I feel like I have been there with you.
For subsp. damascenus; yes it seems usually like your last pictures but not allways. I believe that the most important feature is the corm tunics. Shape, color, size, Style color and length may change by each location. For exapple here is my subps. damascenus from Diyarbakır. It looks like a niveus imposible to tell what it is from pictures!
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This is Crocus kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis :D :D :D :D :D. It is named after Hakkari Province. We did not know the habitat of this species, and we found it quite to our surprise in very different conditions. Sometimes it grows in oak scrub/ light woodland, not unlike the type of vegetation in which Crocus karduchorum occurs. Except for the style, these two crocuses certainly seem to have similarities by the way. In other populations hakkariensis grows in much more open positions... The pics shown here are all from the same population, an open habitat. The only other Crocus that we found in the extreme southeast was cancellatus, perhaps or probably in its subspecies damascenus.
These are probably the last pics in this tread of my 2nd trip to eastern Turkey this autumn. I think I have shown you all the taxons and interesting populations of our 2nd trip. Most of my pics from this trip can be found on my website in a gallery at http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Eastern-Turkey-Oktober-2011/
I wil continue with some pics from my September trip at some stage, when I find the time! If you can't wait, these pics can be seen on my website in another gallery, dedicated to this particular trip: http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Eastern-Turkey-September-2011/
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I started to cataloguing my pictures from this autumn and so I can show you both - cancellatus and pallasii from Kubbe gec how they looks in cultivation.
Janis
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I have been looking at all my Crocus pics from Kubbe Gecidi, but I did not photograph pallasii, perhaps we were not at the right location for pallasii or not at the right time.
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Janis and I were just discussing Crocus cancellatus on Kubbe Gecidi by e-mail. And I think we are still not sure if it's ssp. cancellatus or ssp. damascenus at Kubbe Gecidi. Here are some examples and you can see that the style sometimes overtops the anthers (more usual for ssp. cancellatus) while in another case it is considerably shorter than the anthers, which would indicate damascenus... ??? ??? ???
I have seen a lot of Crocus cancellatus in eastern Turkey, in so called 'damascenus' territory, but I think the majority of the plants I saw had styles that overtopped the anthers... Perhaps the distribution of both subspecies is not quite accurately documented in Flora of Turkey or the style - anther relation is perhaps not the best property for separating these two subspecies ??? ::).
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Kees this is not easy to answer! I think your answer may be underground!
Here is the distrubution of subsp. cancellatus
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=1&tax_id=9422
And here is the distrubution of subsp. damascenus
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=1&tax_id=9426
According this info all of your cancellatus should be subsp. damascenus. But you are also right it is very often the style is longer then athers which is the feature of subsp. cancellatus.
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Kees, I need hardly tell you how relieved we all are that you and Marijn are safely returned to tell the tale of your travels... how I would enjoy the Eastern Turkey Lecture Day on 19th November with the NRV.... have a wonderful time, I'll be thinking of you all.
Here:
http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=554.msg15841#msg15841
Gerrit Eijkelenboom tells of his day .....
here are some of his comments....
"In the morning....
Rinus Bode with 154 photographs, with names neatly on paper for everyone. ....... many unknown species. ................ a Draba polytricha almost upside down hanging from a cliff. The best I found to be Campanula choruhensis . (ED.: Covered in IRG #8 and #9 ;) )
In the afternoon Kees Jan Zwienen on bulbs in Turkey. For me, a very technical story, because I knew almost nothing about. That's okay, because it encourages us to try something . Crocus and Colchicum, though, I continue to find such a difficult story. Whether the anthers are orange or red... "
Yes, it sounds like a great day!
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News travels fast these days. It was quite interesting to have pics of some of the same locations in a very different season, Rinus showed pics of G. pyrenaica at Zigana Pass, while in my talks were pics from this terrain in autumn, with crocuses like suworowianus, scharojanii ssp. lazicus, vallicola and the hyrids between the latter two. I quite agree though that particularly certain groups of the genus Colchicum are very complex ::) and I'm the first to admit that many of the names I give to pics of the more complex groups of Colchicum are only quite accurate because of detailed geographical data and expert advice... ;):D
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Kees ... for those of us who have not seen the plants in the wild it is even harder to pin down the identity ;)
Never mind at least they are all beautiful!
Glad you enjoyed the day as well.
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Ibrahim, thanks very much for your links to the distribution maps, which I suppose are largely in line with Fl. of Turkey. I did find C. cancellatus elsewhere though, just above Erzincan, that's not on either of those maps is it?!
Margarat: yes, I know, it can help a lot to see plants in the wild... On the other hand I sometimes get VERY ::) ::) ::) confused when I see all the variation within species in the wild, particularly in a genus like Tulipa. Anyway, whatever the names we try give to them, let's enjoy seeing and photographing them :D!
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Kees, I need hardly tell you how relieved we all are that you and Marijn are safely returned to tell the tale of your travels... how I would enjoy the Eastern Turkey Lecture Day on 19th November with the NRV.... have a wonderful time, I'll be thinking of you all.
I'm still selecting and cataloguing pics from my latest Turkish adventure and came across these pics of my fellow traveller photographing a Biarum species in the Turkish landscape... :o Seeing these pics it's perhaps hardly surprising that we ran into a little bit of trouble a few days later. Can't blame the people who considered plant-hunting a rather strange hobby ::) :D!
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Kees, thanks a lot for this superb topic - I enjoy the pictures of the crocus and their habitats very much!
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I've nearly uploaded all my pics from this trip to my website. Here are some interesting new pics of C. kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis. The habitat is totally different from my previous pics of this Crocus: oak scrub and oak woodland :o! This is very similar to how the related Crocus karduchorum, another endemic species from SE Turkey, grows. The white form is rare, I think we found just one.
The last picture is our car at this crocus site, near the end of our trip, an hour or so before the start of some adventurous final stages... These crocuses are the last crocuses photographed during this trip.
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Here is a picture C. kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis (yet another population) and its two most interesting companions. The first is what must be Crocus cancellatus ssp. damascenus, despite the fact that the style overtops the anthers, and the second is a Middle Eastern tree frog :), Hyla savignyi.
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I think I finally figured out among which oak species the endemic crocuses C. karduchorum and C. kotschyanus grow. C. karduchorum seems to grow in Quercus petraea ssp. pinnatiloba scrub. Crocus kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis is not restricted to light oak woodland and oak scrub, but where we found it the dominant oak was Q. libani. Both are deciduous oak species (not surprisingly given the altitude at which we found C. karduchorum, although C. kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis seems to have a much wider altitudinal range).