Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Oron Peri on November 02, 2011, 08:41:54 AM
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Crocus season starts here in November.
Between the first to flower today there is this particular one.
It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
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A few others;
veneris - Ex cyprus
tuornefortii -Ex Crete
ochroleucus 'Dalton Album'
pallasii album from Mt. Meron
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That's a very striking Crocus mathewii Oron. It looks healthy from what we can see, despite the unusual markings. I grow a form/hybrid of Crocus tommasinianus called 'Wandering Minstrel' which has very similar patterns on the outer petals. Found in a garden (his?) by John Grimshaw, it is vigorous, appears healthy and shows no sign of virus infection. John explained to me once how the markings are a stable genetic 'aberration', not virus.
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A couple from the greenhouse today.
Firstly Crocus laevigatus, a kind gift from Gerry earlier in the year. I have to say that laevigatus is one of my favourite Crocuses.
Crocus serotinus ssp clusii 'Poseidon'. this one a gift from Rafa way back in 2008. In previous years I had it in a pot outside and it wasn't happy at all but has flowered for me this year in the greenhouse. Yes, I know, the snails love it as well and the aphid is no more.
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Crocus season starts here in November.
Between the first to flower today there is this particular one.
It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
Oh, Oron,
My opinion - 100% virus, not rattle virus as flowers open in sun and petals are smooth. But it very resembles tulip stripe virus. I didn't hear about it on Iridaceae, but world changes. If it would be genetical - striping would be more or less regular and similar/identical on each petal, but here it is very irregular - very typical for virus infections. But I never before saw something similar on crocuses. My recommendation - take a pot away and keep in other corner of garden. In your climate are so many aphids that transferring of virus is very possible.
By the way - today I sprayed all my greenhouses as found a lot of aphids on shoots of Alliums wintering with leaves. Never before expected that. Very long and warm autumn helped so late invasion. Fortunately crocuses were clean. Normally I'm not using chemicals on my bulbs with very few exceptions.
Janis
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Here Crocus melantherus keep going . I like it even more outside as inside ...
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Some pictures made yesterday, nothing new and special, only more developed than earlier.
Crocus cambessedesii trade form
Crocus hyemalis from Dirk and Rik
Crocus laevigatus from Ray Cobb and Goldback
Crocus ochroleucus Dalton White
Crocus tournefortii from AH and from Carpathos
and as last autumn vitellinus more developed
Janis
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The Ray Cobb laevigatus ios very handsome.
I had a seed pod on the gold backed laevigatus a couple of weeks ago. Just 4 seeds though.
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Crocus season starts here in November.
Between the first to flower today there is this particular one.
It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
Oron,
I agree with Janis and I even dom't doubt that it is virus. We should take into account that crocuses are susseptable to different kind of viruses, among which is colour breaking virus as well. I don't see any symmetry in striping, each petal has its own colour pattern. I observed this case on crocuses.
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It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
Oron - in my opinion it is impossible to decide, purely on the basis of appearance, whether this is a virus infection or a genetic variant.
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It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
Oron - in my opinion it is impossible to decide, purely on the basis of appearance, whether this is a virus infection or a genetic variant.
Gerry, it is common mistake of many amateur growers, especially between Iris growers. Plants are rare, difficult to grow and then come out "theories" about genetic changes, chimeras, hybride origin etc., etc. We so love our plants, that it is difficult to throw them away (destroy) especially when they are grown from seed so many years till first blooming. May be sometimes they are healthy, but as I wrote before better destroy 10 healthy than left one infected. In this case flower definitely looks as virus infected.
Janis
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It was given to me by David Stephens 3 years ago as a tiny corm of C. mathewii.
Yesterday, when in bud, i thought it to be virused, but today when opened it looks healthy....
Oron - in my opinion it is impossible to decide, purely on the basis of appearance, whether this is a virus infection or a genetic variant.
Gerry, it is common mistake of many amateur growers, especially between Iris growers. Plants are rare, difficult to grow and then come out "theories" about genetic changes, chimeras, hybride origin etc., etc. We so love our plants, that it is difficult to throw them away (destroy) especially when they are grown from seed so many years till first blooming. May be sometimes they are healthy, but as I wrote before better destroy 10 healthy than left one infected. In this case flower definitely looks as virus infected.
Janis
Janis - I can think of at least three causal explanations for the appearance of Oron's crocus:
1. Virus infection.
2. Genetic mutation with morphologically variable expressivity.
3. Somatic mutation.
While I agree that this looks rather like virus infection I still maintain that one cannot make a decision between these alternatives based purely on appearance - this really would involve the (unsubstantiated) "theories" of "amateur growers". Whether it is always better to assume the worst or to wait & see is an individual decision.
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The Ray Cobb laevigatus ios very handsome.
I had a seed pod on the gold backed laevigatus a couple of weeks ago. Just 4 seeds though.
Lesley - The rather similar C. laevigatus recently posted by David (reply #3, November 02) also came from Ray Cobb via Alan Edwards. Ray apparently had it from Ronald Ginns, so it has a distinguished pedigree.
Seedlings from this form are very variable; some have 'gold' backs, though the colour fades very quickly.
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Janis - I can think of at least three causal explanations for the appearance of Oron's crocus:
1. Virus infection.
2. Genetic mutation with morphologically variable expressivity.
3. Somatic mutation.
While I agree that this looks rather like virus infection I still maintain that one cannot make a decision between these alternatives based purely on appearance - this really would involve the (unsubstantiated) "theories" of "amateur growers". Whether it is always better to assume the worst or to wait & see is an individual decision.
Gerry, I have to say I agree with Janis on this. All 3 causal explanations you give are just hypothesis until the specimen is properly tested for virus, wait and see is not a test. If testing is not an option or the owner does not think it is worth the investment to get it tested the danger is IF it is a virus it might spread and if material from that collection is spread to other collectors, so does the virus. In some genera (Lilium, most Arisaema) getting seeds and then destroying the infected plants is an option but better safe than sorry.... Certainly in important collections that contain rare plants or forms, assuming the worst is not only the safest but also the most responsible thing to do as these collections are basically safehouses for endangered plants. And Oron grows some pretty rare plants by the look of it.
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The Ray Cobb laevigatus ios very handsome.
I had a seed pod on the gold backed laevigatus a couple of weeks ago. Just 4 seeds though.
Lesley - The rather similar C. laevigatus recently posted by David (reply #3, November 02) also came from Ray Cobb via Alan Edwards. Ray apparently had it from Ronald Ginns, so it has a distinguished pedigree.
Seedlings from this form are very variable; some have 'gold' backs, though the colour fades very quickly.
Gee! I 've hit the "big time" ;D
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Janis - I can think of at least three causal explanations for the appearance of Oron's crocus:
1. Virus infection.
2. Genetic mutation with morphologically variable expressivity.
3. Somatic mutation.
While I agree that this looks rather like virus infection I still maintain that one cannot make a decision between these alternatives based purely on appearance - this really would involve the (unsubstantiated) "theories" of "amateur growers". Whether it is always better to assume the worst or to wait & see is an individual decision.
Gerry, I have to say I agree with Janis on this. All 3 causal explanations you give are just hypothesis until the specimen is properly tested for virus, wait and see is not a test. If testing is not an option or the owner does not think it is worth the investment to get it tested the danger is IF it is a virus it might spread and if material from that collection is spread to other collectors, so does the virus. In some genera (Lilium, most Arisaema) getting seeds and then destroying the infected plants is an option but better safe than sorry.... Certainly in important collections that contain rare plants or forms, assuming the worst is not only the safest but also the most responsible thing to do as these collections are basically safehouses for endangered plants. And Oron grows some pretty rare plants by the look of it.
Pascal - I would not disagree with most of your post. Of course my suggestions are no more than that. After 40 years as a professional biologist I'm sceptical of dogmatic conclusions based on superficial appearances.
I have no relevant knowledge on the matter but I would have thought that having plants tested for virus would be extremely dificult &/or expensive for amateurs. In that case 'wait & see' or 'destroy immediately' would seem to be the only options available; personally, I would opt for the first, but then I don't regard my collection as 'important'. The other two suggestions would be quite difficult for any amateur to test. For what it is worth, I think my 2nd suggestion is the least likely but this is no more than a guess, & therefore not worth very much.
With regard to your remarks on 'responsibility': I trust that all those nurserymen who have been sending out the trade form of C. medius for the last 30 years or more will read them & take note. I further trust that other nurseymen will have all their plants tested before distributing them. Somehow, I doubt this will happen.
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Thank you all for giving your opinions and advises.
Although it is hard for me to separate from this extraordinary form, i can not take any chance of risking my collection which is an important one, as it contains many of the bulbous plants growing around the Mediterranean basin, all identified and well documented.
Therefor the funeral will be held tomorrow morning....
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Pascal - I would not disagree with most of your post. Of course my suggestions are no more than that. After 40 years as a professional biologist I'm sceptical of dogmatic conclusions based on superficial appearances.
I have no relevant knowledge on the matter but I would have thought that having plants tested for virus would be extremely dificult &/or expensive for amateurs. In that case 'wait & see' or 'destroy immediately' would seem to be the only options available; personally, I would opt for the first, but then I don't regard my collection as 'important'. The other two suggestions would be quite difficult for any amateur to test. For what it is worth, I think my 2nd suggestion is the least likely but this is no more than a guess, & therefore not worth very much.
With regard to your remarks on 'responsibility': I trust that all those nurserymen who have been sending out the trade form of C. medius for the last 30 years or more will read them & take note. I further trust that other nurseymen will have all their plants tested before distributing them. Somehow, I doubt this will happen.
Gerry, my opinion of nurseryman taking their responsibilty is rather...uhrmmmm...negative, I have lost faith in that a long time ago. Not only for documenting the origin of their stock, correct labeling or virus. Of course there are exceptions but in general they just want to make money, certainly the exporters from my country.... :-[
What I actually mean is that the botanical world is in danger with major cutbacks in funding which means botanic gardens in the future might no longer be the main instutitions that protect the genetic pool of rare plants but instead the private collections. Few do realise this but some of the bigger specialist collections are very important in that respect and are of more importance than simply a bunch of plants to look at or show at the bench.
I do not own my plants, I have "loaned" them from nature and I feel it my responsibility to not only propagate and distribute rare plants but also keep my stock disease free. To be honest I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to test plants for virus in other countries. With the horticultural trade in Holland being a big one there are several companies I can get my plants tested, http://www.bqsupport.nl/ for instance. I simply post fresh leaf samples and get the results a week later and many euros poorer....
Although I specialize in a different genus (Arisaema), on average I have about 10 samples tested each year that I don't trust. Often it is false alarm but I too had to destroy plants, some being the only plants in cultivation outside the original location. I could have tried to grow them on and hope some offsets are produced so I can pollinate mother with son to get seeds but I considered the risk of such a plant being in the vicinity of the rest of my research collection for several more year too risky. It takes one aphid I missed to spread virus. Of course the decision to destroy or not destroy is for each to take but I just want people to understand that many collections are more important than people realise and deserve protection on several levels. Maybe not now but possibly for the future. Not only habitats are disappearing but botanical gardens too.....
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The Ray Cobb laevigatus ios very handsome.
I had a seed pod on the gold backed laevigatus a couple of weeks ago. Just 4 seeds though.
Lesley - The rather similar C. laevigatus recently posted by David (reply #3, November 02) also came from Ray Cobb via Alan Edwards. Ray apparently had it from Ronald Ginns, so it has a distinguished pedigree.
Seedlings from this form are very variable; some have 'gold' backs, though the colour fades very quickly.
Gee! I 've hit the "big time" ;D
I don't know about that David but you might take some comfort from the fact that it is many years since its ancestors were ripped out of the wild.
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Here is a late flowering form of niveus WKA 2312 which does well here in the garden
It is a shame the mathewii is to receive the last rites as I quite like it 8)
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The Ray Cobb laevigatus ios very handsome.
I had a seed pod on the gold backed laevigatus a couple of weeks ago. Just 4 seeds though.
Lesley - The rather similar C. laevigatus recently posted by David (reply #3, November 02) also came from Ray Cobb via Alan Edwards. Ray apparently had it from Ronald Ginns, so it has a distinguished pedigree.
Seedlings from this form are very variable; some have 'gold' backs, though the colour fades very quickly.
Gee! I 've hit the "big time" ;D
I don't know about that David but you might take some comfort from the fact that it is many years since its ancestors were ripped out of the wild.
I will Gerry.
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Today I had a very pleasant surprise when I checked my seedling pots - a C. mathewii seedling started to flower, in my opinion a very nice and dark one - also the throat is quite dark - will try to cross it with the "Peter Moore form" (thanks to Alex ;)) which has also a very intense colour.
Second picture shows it in comparison with a 'normal' C. mathewii.
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Today I had a very pleasant surprise when I checked my seedling pots - a C. mathewii seedling started to flower, in my opinion a very nice and dark one - also the throat is quite dark - will try to cross it with the "Peter Moore form" (thanks to Alex ;)) which has also a very intense colour.
Second picture shows it in comparison with a 'normal' C. mathewii.
Difficult to judge - what is "normal" form. In nature the most distributed are forms with white petals base color and larger or smaller deep purple throught. Less widespread are forms with slightly lilac petals color and most rare are with pale base. Generally I would regard as most tyupical just forms with very deep base color. Really on many localities I found only one speciman with paler base (showed by you as "normal" form).
Janis
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
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Lovely display from all!
Here is also C. mathewii started to flower today after the first heavy rains for this season.
Many thanks Hans :D
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The first pic is Crocus goulimyi from JJA seeds described as ‘Crocus goulimyi from selected variants Greece, Lakonia, N of Areopoli.’. This flowering individual is quite quick grower took only 2 years from seed to flower :o
The second and third are Crocus wattiorum with lovely dark anthers 8)
And the last is Crocus mathewii, a kind of normal one… ;)
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Great to see this species grows well in Israel also! ;)
YT - fantastic C.wattiorum!
Difficult to judge - what is "normal" form. In nature the most distributed are forms with white petals base color and larger or smaller deep purple throught. Less widespread are forms with slightly lilac petals color and most rare are with pale base. Generally I would regard as most tyupical just forms with very deep base color. Really on many localities I found only one speciman with paler base (showed by you as "normal" form).
Janis
Thanks a lot Janis, have never seen this crocus in the wild so I appreciate very much this information. I know only few pictures of this species in nature, here are some: http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Turkey-nieuw2007herfst/14164115_Gw4r2/33/1045413931_jXcsH#1045418276_PcXKR . This thread let me think pale forms are not so uncommon http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4094.0 - but I agree using the word 'normal' in such a variable species does not make much sense.
The seedling I have shown has slightly lilac petals and a lot of purple in the tube, so it is very welcome addition in my small collection and shows a bit the colouration C.m. 'Dream Dancer' - I should grow (Had received the wrong plant (a hybrid) last year , this year it was replaced but it is not out so far).
Weather is terrible - so no pollination will be possible. :-\
Here some pics of the C.mathewii I grow - first the seedling, then two other forms:
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Fantastic images.
Regretable I have no flowering crocus to show today. Last Saturday I mowed my meadow in order to cut the gras and to mulch the fallen leaves.
I was quite surprised to see the first noses of cultivar C. chrysanthus 'Romance' poking through ground already now.
Unintentionally, I cut the longest noses or trampled some, uups ::) :'(
Have you made similar observations in crocus grown outside?
Usually 1st. noses appear E/Dec to M/Jan.
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Crocus cartwrightianus still looks good.
Poul
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Poul, a real nice one 8)
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In my garden only the autumn crocus are in flower.
Crocus pulchellus
Crocus-tournefortii
Crocus goulimyi
Crocus longiflorus
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Hello everyone, just back from a second trip to SE Turkey this autumn :). Here is something that few people seem to have photographed in nature, since I have not seen any pics of this plant in the wild in books or on the internet. This is Crocus kotschyanus ssp. hakkariensis. This is named after Hakkari Province in SE Turkey, which borders Iraq and Iran. It is quite variable in the wild and according to Janis recent book it seems to be very rare in cultivation. This area of Turkey has great mountains and flowers, but understandably not many people go there since is not quite stable/ not entirely safe. I'm glad I'm safely back, suffice it to say thay not all people in the SE seem to be used to see plant enthusiasts lying on the ground in the mountains taking pictures of rare plants. Such behaviour is apparently regarded as rather suspicious by some people, perhaps quite understandably.
All pictures from an earlier trip to SE Turkey (September 2011) are indexed and published on my website at http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Eastern-Turkey-September-2011/
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Our friends in the Dutch RGC, the NRV, are holding a "Turkish Day" on the 19th November by Utrecht... Ger van den Beuken and Rinus Bode on NE-Turkey and Kees Jan van Zwienen on autumn flowering bulbs from Turkey.
I think this will be an interesting day.... the IRG articles on Turkey are very popular and this day will "hit the spot", I think!
The event will be held at the Community Centre:
Wijkgebouw "De Schakel"
Soestdijkseweg Zuid 49 b
3732 HD De Bilt
map to venue:
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=Soestdijkseweg+47a,+De+Bilt&hl=nl&ll=52.108139,5.188293&spn=0.036637,0.090895&sll=51.671605,5.041759&sspn=0.001156,0.00284&vpsrc=6&hnear=Soestdijkseweg+Zuid+47,+De+Bilt,+Utrecht&t=m&z=14
http://www.rotsplantenvereniging.net/agenda.html
http://www.rotsplantenvereniging.net/agenda.html#bookmark1 more info how to get there etc.
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Returning to variability of Crocus mathewii I want to show some pictures from nature. As you can see - night and morning were with rain and so flowers are mostly closed or waterdamaged. As earlier I had mostly only pure white forms, I gave more attention to bluish, although in nature white ones are more common.
Janis
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One recent picture of Crocus laevigatus raised from open pollinated seed of the 'gold back' white form. Quite a variation. I will have to try and self pollinate this next year to see if the results breed closer to the seed parent.
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Beautiful crocus Poul, Franz, Kees and Tony!
Thanks a lot for the pictures of C. mathewii Janis - I always enjoy pictures of the species in their natural habitat. Especially like this species as it belongs to the easier Crocus here - easier than the native C. cambessedesii for example which seems to have sometimes problems with excessive drought in summer in my garden.
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Two days ago it was possible to make some pictures in greenhouse due few hours of sunshine. Now I had time to show those shuts on Forum. Several plants were shown before, too, but those are pictures are just 2 days old.
But as first are again some pictures from Crocus hyemalis and autumn vitellinus. Now I brought those pots for crosspollination inside and flowers nicely opened. A week ago I got mail from friend that unintentionally I was misleaded about parentage of very nice hybrid. I started crossing between caspius and vitellinus, although wondered from where hybrid got black anthers. Now I got new mail that really it was hybrid between vitellinus and hyemalis. This is much more likely as both grow together, chromosome number is more similar (although not identical) and it explains black in anthers of hybrids. Fortunately still there were some pollens and I tried to re-pollinate them in both dirrections. C. hyemalis from Rik only started blooming. Now must to keep fingers crossed.
Crocus melantherus was shown before, too,
but this unusually late robertianus only now started blooming
Janis
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In this entry few new pictures of various Crocus laevigatus and some more of Crocus pallasii from Chios (hope those were not pictured before).
Janis
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So many beautiful photos.... I am in croco-heaven :)
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
Look after the 'Chocolate Soldier' Lesley, it came very close to extinction. Alan Edwards and I were visiting Primrose Warburg when we noticed it growing in her garden, she grew everything in the open ground, no pots at all. There were only two corms surviving from some that had been planted many years before by her husband 'Heff'. Primrose dug the two up and gave one to Alan, the other one went back in the ground. We looked for it after Primrose died but could not find it. So from that one corm given to Alan has come any that are now in cultivation. Marcus was one of the first to receive a 'spare corm' after being on our waiting list for that and Crocus longiflorus 'Primrose Warburg'. For your interest, forms of Crocus laevigatus such as CRO1012 grown by Ray Cobb (still going strong at 89 years old) were selections of naturalised seedlings from his garden.
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All pictures from an earlier trip to SE Turkey (September 2011) are indexed and published on my website at http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Eastern-Turkey-September-2011/
Hi Kees Jan,
Thank you so much for this fantastic report - enjoyed it a lot!
Gerd
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
Look after the 'Chocolate Soldier' Lesley, it came very close to extinction. Alan Edwards and I were visiting Primrose Warburg when we noticed it growing in her garden, she grew everything in the open ground, no pots at all. There were only two corms surviving from some that had been planted many years before by her husband 'Heff'. Primrose dug the two up and gave one to Alan, the other one went back in the ground. We looked for it after Primrose died but could not find it. So from that one corm given to Alan has come any that are now in cultivation. Marcus was one of the first to receive a 'spare corm' after being on our waiting list for that and Crocus longiflorus 'Primrose Warburg'. For your interest, forms of Crocus laevigatus such as CRO1012 grown by Ray Cobb (still going strong at 89 years old) were selections of naturalised seedlings from his garden.
Thanks, David, for information. 'Chocolate Soldier' is growing in Latvia, too - I got it from Marcus - so it came back to Northern hemisphere from Australia.
Janis
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All pictures from an earlier trip to SE Turkey (September 2011) are indexed and published on my website at http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Botanical-trips/Asia/Eastern-Turkey-September-2011/
Hi Kees Jan,
Thank you so much for this fantastic report - enjoyed it a lot!
Gerd
Kees Jan is speaking at the NRV lecture day on the 19th November.... see here for details: http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=554.0 .... ironically, the best details are found on the VRV forum! ;)
Some here : http://www.rotsplantenvereniging.net/agenda.html
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That's a very striking Crocus mathewii Oron. It looks healthy from what we can see, despite the unusual markings. I grow a form/hybrid of Crocus tommasinianus called 'Wandering Minstrel' which has very similar patterns on the outer petals. Found in a garden (his?) by John Grimshaw, it is vigorous, appears healthy and shows no sign of virus infection. John explained to me once how the markings are a stable genetic 'aberration', not virus.
Hi Tony, 'Wandering Minstrel', 'Pieta', 'Jericho' and other forms of Crocus vernus/tommasinianus selections/crosses named by John Grimshaw came from a church graveyard in the Jericho district of Oxford UK where there is a large naturalised mixed population.
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
Look after the 'Chocolate Soldier' Lesley, it came very close to extinction. Alan Edwards and I were visiting Primrose Warburg when we noticed it growing in her garden, she grew everything in the open ground, no pots at all. There were only two corms surviving from some that had been planted many years before by her husband 'Heff'. Primrose dug the two up and gave one to Alan, the other one went back in the ground. We looked for it after Primrose died but could not find it. So from that one corm given to Alan has come any that are now in cultivation. Marcus was one of the first to receive a 'spare corm' after being on our waiting list for that and Crocus longiflorus 'Primrose Warburg'. For your interest, forms of Crocus laevigatus such as CRO1012 grown by Ray Cobb (still going strong at 89 years old) were selections of naturalised seedlings from his garden.
Thanks, David, for information. 'Chocolate Soldier' is growing in Latvia, too - I got it from Marcus - so it came back to Northern hemisphere from Australia.
Janis
Janis, that's great. Now I know it is safe from extinction. Bulk it up and sell it on. David
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
For your interest, forms of Crocus laevigatus such as CRO1012 grown by Ray Cobb (still going strong at 89 years old) were selections of naturalised seedlings from his garden.
David - Some years ago Alan gave me corms of C. laevigatus under the number CRO1012 which he said came from Ray. Last year (I think) I posted a pic of this & Tony Willis spoke to Ray about it who said the number should be cr1012 (his catalogue number, not a collection number) & that he (Ray) had it from Ronald Ginns. All very pedantic I know. A very vigorous plant; seedlings from it are extremely variable but all attractive.
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Thanks for the note about the gold-backed laevigatus Gerry. Mine came from Marcus Harvey in Tasmania, from whom all my special and rare forms have come. He has great contacts, including Alan Edwards. It was from Marcus, ex Alan that Bowles' 'Chocolate Soldier' came my way and some other precious things. So also impeccable lineage. (Ex Harvey, ex Edwards, ex Warburg, ex Bowles). I count myself not only very lucky in this respect but also very privileged.
For your interest, forms of Crocus laevigatus such as CRO1012 grown by Ray Cobb (still going strong at 89 years old) were selections of naturalised seedlings from his garden.
David - Some years ago Alan gave me corms of C. laevigatus under the number CRO1012 which he said came from Ray. Last year (I think) I posted a pic of this & Tony Willis spoke to Ray about it who said the number should be cr1012 (his catalogue number, not a collection number) & that he (Ray) had it from Ronald Ginns. All very pedantic I know. A very vigorous plant; seedlings from it are extremely variable but all attractive.
Gerry, Alan got his corms from me and I got them from Ray. There were two selections, CRO1011 (white) and CRO1012 (blue). CRO is the prefix to Ray's accession numbers so these were the 1011th and1012th Crocuses Ray had accessioned since he started his recording system. I got the impression that these had come from selections from the garden but if Tony has asked Ray recently and he said they came from Ginn's, then so be it. David
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Thanks David for your information. I think a plant is always more interesting when it has some history attached. Marcus gave me a single corm the summer before last (Feb 09) and when I planted it in a trough last summer there were three flowering size and 3 babies. There were 8 flowers this spring. Looking at the leaves now I'd say there are a couple more flowering size and half a dozen babies. I too have a waiting list. :)
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Wonderful Crocuses everyone. LOVE the Chocolate soldier...
Flowering out in the garden here now is Crocus laevigatus.
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Just recently Ian Young in his Bulb log wrote how important is to take off old crocus flowers, which looks insignificant in dry weather, bet when start cloudy and moist period they got mould which easy can reach even corm and it could die.
I want to add that for some species not only flowers but even cataphylls are better to remove. I'm doing it with Crocus speciosus and robertianus obligatory, but looking for other species, too. Sometimes (pallasii) green leaves are tightly enclosed by cataphylls. Then I'm taking in fingers tips of leaves and spread them breaking tube of cataphylls. Cataphylls I try to pluck off. In winter I'm checking periodically all pots looking for some mould, penicillium, botrytis, fusarium nivale. It is very important for autumn Colchicum, too.
Janis
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Wim, nice Cr.laevigatus.
Here my last Crocus outside for this autumn,
Cr.kotschyanus ssp.kotschyanus from Ziyaret Tepe in lower altitude,
higher grows ssp.cappadocius
a early seedpot from Cr.suworowianus
rainprotection for pots in my garden
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rainprotection for pots in my garden
Is it easy to take of this plates to water them Dirk ? Or do you leave them without watering in wintertime ?
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rainprotection for pots in my garden
Is it easy to take of this plates to water them Dirk ? Or do you leave them without watering in wintertime ?
There was the last time of waters in October and the surface of the substrate could still dry up well. There is the next water in spring, 2012.
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A few crocus, first two picture are taken at the weekend, last one yesterday evening - doubt I will see the open flower... ::)
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Today again is full sunshine (after several foggy and cloudy days). So it was possible to check some flowers in greenhouse. Of course – very few left but my greatest joy is for blooming of Crocus moabiticus. It is the first time when this rare and difficult to grow species blooms with me. I got it from Arnis as an unidentified species under number 0465, collected in Jordan. Today it got name.
On my entry about Peloponnesus trip this autumn I wrote that I saw only two specimens of Crocus laevigatus blooming. I collected one of them due quite expressed golden colour on petals backside. Unfortunately pictures of flowers taken in wild failed, but today I saw that collected corm produced new bud, even more yellow than I noted in Greece (PELOG-006). Still several stocks of laevigatus (autumn blooming) didn’t start blooming. From those late comers now flowers stock received from Erich Pasche.
My Turkish friend who presented me corm of Crocus speciosus just asked me about its identity. I supposed that I missed it’s blooming or it didn’t flower at all as all speciosus finished blooming long ago. Checking pots great was my surprise seeing just this one blooming now. It turned very late blooming form of speciosus subsp. xantholaimos.
From plants collected in Greece this autumn, new flower in pot was produced by Crocus niveus, too (PELOG-007).
Still some Crocus caspius stocks are blooming. This species is famous by its very long blooming, producing new and new flowers. Here – white and lilac forms of this beautiful species.
Not many species still are in flowers. In addition to list I can add hyemalis, aleppicus, melantherus. Just Crocus laevigatus and melantherus still here are really beautiful.
Janis
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:D SPRING STARTED HERE!!! :D
Last night we had real frost here - may be the first so hard this autumn - temperature dropped till minus 7 C at sunset. When sun came up I went to greenhouse to routine check for died flowers etc. Accidentally my eye was stopped by something strange on spring crocus bed. There was first flower coming out. You can see it on first picture. Of course I took it in to force opening on my bathrooms windowsill. It turned Crocus hittiticus, collected something North from Silifke in S Turkey. I went there to check where just reticulatus changes to hittiticus, but my visit was too late for this season and all early crocuses finished blooming, only last spring bloomers were (vitellinus) still in flower. This one corm was collected between dense shrubs on terraces abandoned long ago quite far to South from localities of hittiticus known to me and judging by corm tunics on field I labeled it as "cancellatus?". Our stop was accidental - simply to look around and there were collected Fritillaria elwesii, Corydalis tauricola and 2 crocuses - this one and vitellinus. It is the first blooming with me.
Janis
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Janis, glad to see spring started in the Baltics already, we shouldn't be far behind then ;) ;)
Love the "golden" C. laevigatus and the C. moabiticus especially!
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Checking pictures of last autumn and adding names, I liked this one C. tournefortii with "fountain-like" stigma :D
Janis
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A Crocus
longiflorus medius that came from Howard Clase (maybe) is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
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A Crocus longiflorus that came from Howard Clase is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
John, are you sure that's longiflorus? Looks more like medius to me.
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A Crocus longiflorus that came from Howard Clase is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
John, are you sure that's longiflorus? Looks more like medius to me.
You're right Martin. I never received a medius from anyone according to my records (or more correctly a longiflorus!) so I had best change the label.
Follow-up - Howard says - "the batch I bought under that name were at least mostly medius"
johnw
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Some Crocus from today:
Crocus hyemalis, from Israel, thanks ;)
Crocus cambessedesii, flowering in the garden starts about one month later than in nature
Crocus nerimaniae, a gift of a generous friend
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Three beauties Hans !! :o :o
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A Crocus longiflorus that came from Howard Clase is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
John, are you sure that's longiflorus? Looks more like medius to me.
And apparently virus free - rare sight! Congratulations John.
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Hans, your C. hyemalis is stunning!
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Here is a link to some pics of a very nice form of Crocus laevigatus which I found while browsing PK's Prairie Break Blog. They might be from Amorgina ... but the text is all Greek to me ;)
http://floraamorgina.blogspot.com/2011/10/crocus-laevigatus-forma-amorgina.html
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A Crocus longiflorus that came from Howard Clase is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
John, are you sure that's longiflorus? Looks more like medius to me.
And apparently virus free - rare sight! Congratulations John.
I was going to say it looks virus free. I also have a virus-free clone of medius that I raised from seed many years ago. We should exchange corms so we can cross-pollinate and try for seed.
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Thanks a lot for your comments Luc and Maggie, seems I am becoming a trainee croconut thanks to Ians bulblog, Janis book, this forum and some terrific friends!
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Hans , thank you for your 3 beautyful photos -I have never seen such a darkcoloured C. cambessedesii ,
should it set seeds please remember me and welcome to the " Croconut Society "
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A Crocus longiflorus that came from Howard Clase is just in flower here. After such a wet & cool summer the only Crocus to flower this autumn was a single nudiflorus.
johnw - +4c and very windy at times
John, are you sure that's longiflorus? Looks more like medius to me.
And apparently virus free - rare sight! Congratulations John.
I was going to say it looks virus free. I also have a virus-free clone of medius that I raised from seed many years ago. We should exchange corms so we can cross-pollinate and try for seed.
Martin - John's plant seems to be the trade form of C. medius - look at the anthers - which is sterile. In my experience it will not set seed even after attempts to pollinate with a wild sourced plant.
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Gerry, the anthers on John's medius do look small and stunted. John, no pollen on them at all? My own medius was raised from a commercial clone many, many years ago, probably from Van Tubergen commercial stock. I got a potful of open pollinated seed from one corm which gave me a potful of seedlings, so I'm not sure if what I now have is a single strong clone that prevailed in the garden over the years or a group of seedlings - they're all identical. But more recent attempts to cross my medius with commercial medius have all been failures.
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Thanks Otto - all C. cambessedesii I grow are growing in shadow, so in a sunny position it would not look as dark - will try to collect seeds of this one for you.
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Gerry, the anthers on John's medius do look small and stunted. John, no pollen on them at all?
Martin - There is a little pollen there. Not obvious & very stingy. If I pinch the anthers I get a bit. I can send bulbs when dormant as I have plenty. Originally these possibly came from Broadleigh.
johnw
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Gerry, the anthers on John's medius do look small and stunted. John, no pollen on them at all?
Martin - There is a little pollen there. Not obvious & very stingy. If I pinch the anthers I get a bit. I can send bulbs when dormant as I have plenty. Originally these possibly came from Broadleigh.
johnw
We can do a swap during dormancy. Can't hurt to try cross-pollination, though Gerry's probably right about the lack of fertility. Mine don't produce much pollen either.
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Correct name for Crocus medius is C. ligusticus. Would be nice to use this one, although medius is far more common and traditional. Only few companies offers it under correct name (between them Peter Nijseen from Holland).
It is very strange species. Must be easy and I was growing commercial form for several years outside. Not very happy it was, but alived and sometimes even bloomed up to I find that commercal stock is virus-infected. The same happens with stock named as 'Millisimo'. But I have problems with wild stocks - all got by me were more beautifull, large flowering, but disappear... Why? I can't understand. This autumn I got few new corms. One formed beautiful first flower and... rotted. Will alive others? - I don't know. When I wrote to Erich Pasche - he replied that with ligusticus he has same problems. When he grew them outside under Thymus everyrthing was OK, but in pots he allways lost this species.
Similar problem species with me is Crocus carpetanus.
Janis
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I have a very few 'wild-origin' C. ligusticus derived from seed collections made in Liguria by David Stephens and Peter Bird & Mike Salmon. Although I grow these in pots, the pots are kept in an open plunge all-year round. The corms survive & flower regularly but seem not to increase vegetatively. They rarely set seed. To my annoyance, the last seed I sowed was apparently killed by the cold last winter - nothing ever appeared.
Some years ago Alan Edwards gave me a couple of corms he had collected in Liguria but unfortunately these did not survive. I don't know whether Alan still has these plants - I imagine David S would know.
As regards the trade form of C. medius/ligusticus, this was virused when I first obtained it some 30 years ago. I have often wondered about its origin or whether it could be a hybrid but no one seems to have any information. For no very good reason I suspect it could be a van Tubergen plant.
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Yes, we should really be using ligusticus, not medius. I'm afraid the new name still does not come naturally to me.
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Correct name for Crocus medius is C. ligusticus. Would be nice to use this one, although medius is far more common and traditional. Only few companies offers it under correct name (between them Peter Nijseen from Holland).
It is very strange species. Must be easy and I was growing commercial form for several years outside. Not very happy it was, but alived and sometimes even bloomed up to I find that commercal stock is virus-infected. The same happens with stock named as 'Millisimo'. But I have problems with wild stocks - all got by me were more beautifull, large flowering, but disappear... Why? I can't understand. This autumn I got few new corms. One formed beautiful first flower and... rotted. Will alive others? - I don't know. When I wrote to Erich Pasche - he replied that with ligusticus he has same problems. When he grew them outside under Thymus everyrthing was OK, but in pots he allways lost this species.
Similar problem species with me is Crocus carpetanus.
Janis
With me there grow Cr.ligusticus of NW Italy
(Bignone, Ceppo) and ligusticus 'Millesimo'
on a patch side by side without problems.
With Millesimo the foliage is 5 cm long at the moment,
with other 1 cm.
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First of my spring crocus out today. has flowered as early as mid December before.
Crocus graveolens
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When he grew them outside under Thymus everyrthing was OK, but in pots he allways lost this species.
Similar problem species with me is Crocus carpetanus.
Janis
I like to grow crocuses in the garden so far as possible and if they are under a mat of something it doesn't matter if they get watered through the summer as the mat, of thyme or whatever, soaks up the excess moisture and the crocuses remain safe. I find all the species I grow do better in the garden than in pots but of course we have very mild winters compared with many Forumists. As well as thymes I look for rather loose mats. Campanula 'Mist Maiden' is a favourite for crocuses, or CC. arvatica and raineri.
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A question for Tony G. Is it too early to send crocus seed to David S? I have some cleaned and ready to go, too late for Society/Club lists but if I keep it here it will likely get lost in the mists of a generally over-filled (untidy) house. It would be safer if sent off. If OK can you send me the right address please.
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When he grew them outside under Thymus everyrthing was OK, but in pots he allways lost this species.
Similar problem species with me is Crocus carpetanus.
Janis
I like to grow crocuses in the garden so far as possible and if they are under a mat of something it doesn't matter if they get watered through the summer as the mat, of thyme or whatever, soaks up the excess moisture and the crocuses remain safe. I find all the species I grow do better in the garden than in pots but of course we have very mild winters compared with many Forumists. As well as thymes I look for rather loose mats. Campanula 'Mist Maiden' is a favourite for crocuses, or CC. arvatica and raineri.
That would be fatal here Lesley. Are there no slugs or snails in NZ?
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Gerry there definitely ARE slugs and snails in NZ and in the billions in some parts but I am truly blessed that they are not with me. I saw a slug last week in a lettuce I bought at the market and it was quickly shunted down the sink with hot water. I haven't seen a snail for years except one that Teddy brought home from somewhere and chomped - though didn't eat. I had no snails in my last garden either but a very few slugs which frogs dealt with. Before that I had a garden so thick with snails that I used to throw them out on the road as I weeded (the garden sloped to the road) until I realized the traffic killing them was making the street smell of rotten meat after a while so I had to resort to buckets of briny water.
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A question for Tony G. Is it too early to send crocus seed to David S? I have some cleaned and ready to go, too late for Society/Club lists but if I keep it here it will likely get lost in the mists of a generally over-filled (untidy) house. It would be safer if sent off. If OK can you send me the right address please.
No and Yes in that order :) I sent you a PM with address.
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I have this labeled as Crocus laevigatus 'Fontenayi', but not completely sure of the ID.
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Arnold - it looks like the one I have under that name & in flower now but I suppose that doesn't mean much.
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Gerry:
Thanks, that makes two of us.
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My first spring Crocus today,
Cr. imperati from Italy.
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My first spring Crocus today,
Cr. imperati from Italy.
It will be my first spring one too, but not yet! Very early, but not so unusual for this species which I have had in flower before Christmas on several occasions.
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Janis was over here today - brilliant lecture.
He showed some photos from his Crocus breeding programme :o :o wonderful things to come in the future
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Janis was over here today - brilliant lecture.
He showed some photos from his Crocus breeding programme :o :o wonderful things to come in the future
Janis was at Termonfeckin, was he not? No-one there to make us jealous by telling us how the weekend went? ???
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No only Harry Jans, Liam McCaughey and Jim Jermyn
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Getting mysellf muddled, obviously.. it happens more and more :-[
My warped mind must have read Jans and decided it was Janis! :-X ::) :-X
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Not the only one Maggi. On Sunday at the Janis Ruksans lecture I told someone it was Jan Penning who was organising the trip to Kyrgyzstan. It's Harry Jans. Doh!
I learnt something new just now. stan in all the countries ending in stan means place of.
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Not the only one Maggi. On Sunday at the Janis Ruksans lecture I told someone it was Jan Penning who was organising the trip to Kyrgyzstan. It's Harry Jans. Doh!
I learnt something new just now. stan in all the countries ending in stan means place of.
Jan Pennings will go (may be not, by last comunication) to UZBEKISTAN in Aprill, I'm going to Kazahstan in May.
Janis
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Ceocus hitticus in bloom here
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Very nice Arthur.
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A late Crocus speciosus - difficult to photograph so please excuse images
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Ceocus hitticus in bloom here
Your hittiticus follow mine. Today started blooming another stock of hyemalis from Jordan and with pollens of that I pollinated last two blooms of Syrian vitellinus.
Janis
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All those PLACES OF wonderful horticultural and botanical interest. We saw someone on TV last night, doing an "Intrepid Journey" on the Pamir Highway. Stunning mountains in Tadjikistan but hardly a plant to be seen, just a few, common annuals and perennials, in a botanic garden.
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I just found that forgot to attach pictures for my last entry - so they are here.
Janis
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They are stunning - hope they are easier to cultivate than the equally stunning michelsonii.
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The warmest November in last 88 years (recent information) here forced development of some spring bulbs. First flowers of Iris danfordiae, some Alan McMurtries hybrids and Corydalis schangini appeared. Several crocuses are running, too. In addition to earlier pictured Crocus hittiticus stock three other stocks started blooming. Tomorrow will bring them into bathroom to force opening of flowers and crosspollination. But first flower of Crocus atticus started blooming, too.
Janis
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Yesterday we had some hours of sun, so I can show Crocus hittiticus with something open flowers (pots wer brought in house and placed on bathrooms window). Light was changing and so some pictures are something more yellowish than I would like. Gulnar-1 - comes from Archibald, RUDA-034 - is from Gevne Beli.
Janis
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Janis very nice hitticus forms mines did not flower yet. Did this subsp. also upgraded to species level or because of easyer to use one name then two?
Greatings....
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Janis very nice hitticus forms mines did not flower yet. Did this subsp. also upgraded to species level or because of easyer to use one name then two?
Greatings....
Brian Mathew originally described C. hittiticus as species, but later lowered its level to subspecies status of reticulatus in his Monograph. I don't liked such merging although both species met and their area something overlap. I got sample collected on Gűlek-Bogazi in which both species occured. There were plants with black and with yellow anthers.
In paper of Gitte, Pettersen et al. about phylogeny of Crocuses we can see that Crocus hittiticus is closer to C. hartmannianus and on phylogenetic tree is placed quite far from typical reticulatus. This confirmed my opinion that both are separate species and I regarded them as such in my book, too.
Janis