Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Janis Ruksans on November 01, 2011, 05:23:15 PM
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After passing of very eventfull season I and my wife Guna decided to take some short rest in "warmer corner". Selecting of Greece was not the best choice as we all the time were nervous about possible strikes on Airport, on car-rent companies, petrol stations etc. The last strike stopping flights happens just few days before our departure. It was my second visit to Peloponnese after three years, so this case crocuses were only "side product" for peacefull rest and watching of historical monuments. Our greatest problems was not strikes but my navigator, which sometimes offered "strike", sometimes voluntary changed destination point or guided to wrong spot.
After arrival we drove to Mystras near Tripoly where is fantastic small hotel Mistras Inn with very good food in restaurant (not so good wine as I would like). By the road there I noted several points with crocuses on roadside but not stopped there, leaving for future. We were tired and wanted faster to get hotel.
Next morning we started with driving to Castle on mountain top over Mystras. Unfortunately there I saw only this late blooming Allium sp. Forgot its name, but quite common species. And there we saw first Sternbergias and Cyclamens. But no one Crocus although 3 years ago there were plenty of boryi and laevigatus + few hadriaticus.
Then I turned back to watch crocuses sites seen yesterday's evening. Sternbergias and Cyclamen graecum flourished everywere. The first Crocus were C. boryi just on roadside and further in shrubs. Here some pictures of those plants. More - tomorrow.
Janis
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Ah, an autumn break.... perfect! ;)
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Very nice flowers, I would welcome more photos.
The allium is Allium callimischon ssp. callimischon.
Rob
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Many thanks Rob. Of course it is Allium callimishon. I was growing it several years ago but it isn't hardy even with me even in greenhouse.
Following road back after Alepohori we stopped at large parking where all hillsides where covered by Sternbergia. But as first another picture of beautiful Crocus boryi group. But approximating Sternbergias I spotted another white crocus supposing that it is the same boryi but approximating found that this is beautiful population of Crocus hadriaticus – generally all flowers where pure white only very few slightly violet shaded. There were something new for me. Earlier all hadriaticus seen by me had white, yellowish or brownish toned flower tube. In this population I found 3 spots where was 1-2 plants with deep purple flower tube slightly going up on petals outside base as short lilac stripes. Such hadriaticus I never before saw. I was very happy for those plants as 3 years ago I found only very few hadriaticus at only one spot.
Janis
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After checking of localities seen yesterday we turn back to South - to fantastic minor city - Monemvasia. I liked it so much 3 years ago (the picture accompanying my entries is made just in Monemvasia) that want to stay there again although hotels there are of double price than in other localities. We reach the place in good afternoon, so no more walking on mountainsides - to find the hotel (the same as 3 years ago), to buy a bottle of very good wine (only 9,- Euro) and evening meal in same restaurant, but this case we were very disappointed with food and half left on table. Fish soup was real disaster… Fortunately we earlier bought goat cheese and had excellent afterparty on balcony of our hotel's room. So good wine and party, that I searched for shop owner (shop was closed) to buy another bottle of same wine.
Next morning we walked up to old city of Monemvasia. Three years ago there were plenty of Crocus goulimyi. Now can't find any one, but everywhere in abundance blooms Sternbergia lutea/sicula, Cyclamen graecum and Colchicum cupanii. 3 years ago I saw only very few Colchicums, some cyclamens and Sternbergias. Last hope for crocuses at very top, but again nothing. Only on way down my eye catched the first two flowers of C. goulimyi formed by shallow lying corm. It confirms that we are too early for crocuses here.
After short rest we turn to Tripoli - Velanidea. I well remember localities were Crocus laevigatus grew in abundance and were very variable. Now there are no one Crocus but plenty with Colchicum sfikasianum, from which 3 years ago I found only 2-3 plants. It confirms that Colchicums blooms earlier and it is something too early for some species. But it is compensated by others - each stick has two ends.
Janis
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My last hopes for Crocus goulimyi remained for road to Velanidea - to pass over Tripoli. Three years ago there were plenty of goulimyi, laevigatus, not so much niveus and boryi. At very top we were greated by very strong wind and at first look - no one flower. I long walked through horribly spiny shrubs searching for niveus and collecting only prickles, scratchs, thorns. In result I saw only 3 buds of niveus and 1 half-opened goulimyi flower. At same time on higher side of road and roadside ditch my wife found plenty of niveus (3 years ago there were none). Between them were nothing special - usual whites or light blue variants. Finally in ditch I found 2 specimens of laevigatus, close by colour to cv. Goldback and 1 boryi. Unfortunately pictures of those two species failed. Those discoveries allowed for me to picture corm tunics to show the best way to separate laevigatus from boryi. You can judge it by attached pictures. At lower altitudes still no one Crocus started blooming, so we returned back to Monemvasia, to other very small and in this case excellent restaurant, and of course - bottle of wine on our room’s balcony.
Janis
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Beautiful pictures Janis, especially the one of Guna with Sternbergias worshipping at her feet. :)
A wonderful richness of Crocus, Colchicum, Cyclamen and Sternbergia.
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Next day we are going to Stemnitsa - to see the place where three years ago I saw thousands of Crocus melantherus. I want to show this locality to Guna as this is one of my ostly loved crocuses. After some missing of road - my navigator started to mislead us and it takes some riving there and back before we found correct road in our direction. And again stop seeing some crocuses on minor roadside. The first noted were some specimens of Crocus hadriaticus. There I found large clump of vegetatively multiplied C. hadriaticus. It was bulldozered on roadside together with rubbish. Taking of large stone I simply picked up this bunch, hoping it will grow well with me and may be saving it from next coming of bulldozer to clean roadside from rubbish etc. Another phantastic specimen had dark flower tube extending on petals base - the best hadriaticus ever seen by me.
I all the time was looking for blue hadriaticus. I saw such plant 3 years ago but its corm where deep in split of rock. In previous days I saw occasional slightly bluish toned C. hadriaticus specimens, but nothing so deep coloured as I wanted. At this location I suddenly noted a lot of bluish flowers. Approximating they turned in blue coloured population of Crocus cancellatus subsp. mazziaricus. It is very widespread in Greece but nowhere was seen by me 3 years ago. In this population all plants where bluish coloured. Here both species grow together. You can compare on pictures their corms. I usually try to picture crocus corms in wild, where they perfectly show special features of species. In cultivation with annual replanting old sheets are taken away and not always is easy to se the length of neck, shape of ribbing etc.
Janis
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Deeper in country by small but very good road again stop seeing plenty of crocuses on open field side. Previously seen populations always were in some way joined with forest, shrubs. Here they grow on open hill side, many in roadside ditch and its sides and between sparse grass. Here together again are two species - in this case boryi and hadriaticus. Populations of both species seen yesterday were clean. Although there were no great differences in altitude, soil, both were in distance of few kilometres but in each was only boryi or only hadriaticus.
Janis
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Fascinating stuff Janis, thanks for posting
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just like being there
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My target near very beautiful mountainside village Stemnitsa was Crocus melantherus. I stopped at several points driving up in mountains but everywhere were only Crocus boryi, not much, only few – approximately the same as 3 years ago. When we reached spot where at previous visit all was covered with white dots made by flowers C. melantherus, I happily stopped – all again was covered, even more abundantly, but when I stepped out of car… it turned “only” C. boryi. Same spot, same density but different species. It means that C. melantherus later replaces C. boryi – and the same happens in cultivation, too. Now in my greenhouse are only last flowers of boryi but melantherus are at their best.
We were short with petrol but there was no petrol station in Stemnitsa, so we are going further to next village. It approximates evening so in same time we are looking for some hotel. I noted some nice country style hotels/guest houses, but petrol station is on opposite side of village and Guna don’t like returning, so after refuelling we drove further to next minor city/village. Just in centre there is nice new hotel, not country style and looks expensive, but there is good parking – not easy foundable on narrow hillside village streets – so I’m going ask about prices. Price seems ridiculous even for Greece - only 40,- Euro per person inclusive dinner and breakfast. Dinner was fantastical – huge steak with potatoes, traditional tzatziki, enormous portion of Greek salad, 1 litre of very good wine + sweets. For Guna it was far too much and much for me, too. And all it for only 40,- Euro (don’t forget good room + excellent breakfast) – Hotel’s name “Four Seasons”.
Next morning we are going to Olympia - to see the place where Olympic games were born. Just after Karkalon village again on roadside are crocuses – this case Crocus cancellatus but contrary to previous locality with this species where all flowers were bluish, here they are only white coloured.
Our road goes lower and lower and then huge flowers on roadside – phantastic Colchicum bivonae. Flowers were of size of largest garden cultivars – very variable by shade – dark and light violet purple with very distinct chequering. Up to Olympia there were no botanical stops more.
Janis
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Thank you Janis for sharing your trip with us. Your keen observation means it's almost like being there, and the insights you are providing into how the plants grow together (or not as the case may be) are great pointers to what may thrive in my garden. Although I've never been to the Peloponesse (they are on my "bucket" list) I know Sternbergia and C. hadriaticus and C goulimyi which thrive there do well in my garden half a world away so I'll now try C. melantherus and C. boryi (again! It thrived in the garden for two years but after last years wetter summer didn't show in autumn).
Again thank you keep posting! Anita
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At every village is small cemetery. On picture one of largest seen. The slopes are very steep and all more or less flat spots are (or was) cultivated. So cemeteries are very impacted.
The last bulbs before reaching Olympia were Colchicum bivonae shown on previous entry. But in ancient Olympia everywhere blooms Prospero autumnalis (earlier Scilla autumnalis). Between billions of bluish purple – this one white beauty (the best white seen during trip) was growing in minor dot just on top of ancient monument.
After seeing of fantastic site and museum of Olympia we decide to go to Delphy. The road turns to real nightmare. My GPS navigator voluntary changes direction and before I catch mistake, we are driving almost 100 km to side. But stopping at some place where old terraces are covered by golden flowers of Sternbergias for some picture, I’m stopped by horrible smell of uncleaned public toilet. Looking around the source of smell was found at foots – Biarum tenuifolium were in full bloom. It remembers me visit to Acropolis in Athens some 7 years ago when we supposed that mountain slope was used instead of toilet – so strong smell of urine followed us. And then we noted the source – Biarums.
Crocuses seen on this road in next entry.
Janis
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After passing around half day at ancient Olympos we turned to Mykenos. It was not easy to find this ancient city because my GPS navigator voluntarily changed target – so we drove some 150 km more than really needed. But may be it was not so bad as we found another white blooming population of Crocus cancellatus. Pictures are attached here. It is late afternoon and day is cloudy, so most flowers are closed and I found only one with something open flowers. Again in this population all flowers are only with white base colour.
We approximated to Mykenos in complete darkness. After winding through labyrinth of streets of neighbour city Argos my navigator guides me in small village of very narrow streets and no idea where Mykenos is. Nothing left than to go back to Argos and look for hotel there although I don’t like hotels in large cities. In darkness I overpass the first turn to Argos, but there are several turns and I’m following the road and then accidentally large sign on roadside – turn to Mykenos after 1 km. Incredible – we were almost at point, but my navigator made current joke (now I returned it to vendor). Almost at end of village are small hotel where we got very good room for very moderate price. On opposiote side very good restaurant with so good wine that we asked another bottle to room.
Next morning we again are passing half a day on ancient ruins. Here picture of entry gate in ancient city – Lyons Gate. Seeing gigantic stones I start to understand why building of those were addicted to mystical Cyclops – one eyed giants.
We use another half of day for visiting Epidaurus – the place where medicine art was bourn by legends, where first doctor Asclepius worked and teach others. There again plenty of Prospero autumnalis and in total I found 2 white specimens and one reddish purple. As everywhere attached museum is phantastic as well as remnants of antic buildings.
On way back we stop at pair of Mykenian bridges and there on very roadside I collected three white Prospero autumnalis. We so liked our last hotel that decided to return there and to pass another night in it.
Janis
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Wonderful pictures and a great travel log - I feel I am there with you and your wife.
One thing - I think you are referring to Mycenae when you talk about the Lioness Gates, at the court of King Agamemnon. It get confusing because in Greek it would look like, Mykenai or Mykenae.
Amazing place, and site of one of the great archaeological finds in Greece and of one of the most dramatic, and I think erroneous statements, in Greek archaeological history. On finding a gold death mask from one of the circular tombs inside the gate I think Schliemann sent a message to the Greek Prime Minister, to the effect that "he had gazed upon the face of Agamennon". If I can remember from my school boy ancient civs - it was the face of his murderer and lover of his wife. It was all very bitter and twisted back then - but whats changed!
BTW I LOVE Stemnitsa and Dimitsana - Glad you did too.
Cheers and keep the story rolling - I'm there every step of the way.
Marcus
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It is Friday – our last full day in Greece and we decide to go to Delphi in Attica on slopes of Parnassos ridge. I hope to find Crocus hadriaticus forms, Guna want to see the place from where future was predicted. The road was quite long and taught by previous experience with my navigator I more looked on map than navigator’s screen.
I stopped several times on roadsides – at every spot looking as eventual Crocus cite, but no one flower was seen. Even in Sternbergias and Cyclamens we were quite short and they started only approximating just to ancient Delphi site. We were pleasantly surprised – just this day all Greece museums, historical cites are free of entry payment. This case we didn’t started with museum but went directly in ruins of antique city winding up by quite steep mountain slope. Although very rich in monuments this cite disappointed us by lack of information desks. Such are very few and many of them only in Greek and French. Both are not our languages. Near ancient Athena Treasury are large cone-shaped stone – and no explaining what it is. All hillsides are covered by Sternbergias. At very top is situated Stadium very well preserved but not visitable inside due rolling stone danger from hills overtopping Stadium. There bulb-world are accompanied by plenty of Colchicum cupanii. Few pictures I’m attaching here. It is at culmination of blooming but for crocuses we are at too low altitude.
In superbly constructed Museum we finally found what is this stone cone – by this was marked centre of World (Earth), point from where Zeus started to make Universum. There are several sculptures preserved from replacing to Rome by earthquake, which buried them and so they reached time of archaeological excavations. Road to Delphi and visiting of cite and museum took a lot of our time, so we decided to drive further to look for hotel. Present Delphi is so crowded by cars, public that we pass it in direction to sea. And again – just on roadside small hotel and very good restaurant with grilled meat (on natural fire). Price – excellent and acceptable. Breakfast – excellent.
Janis
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It was too late for driving in mountains (Guna really hate mountain roads) and on Saturdays morning we are too short in time. It seem that no more Crocuses will be seen, but at short stop almost at place3 where I stopped only 2 days ago – again Crocus cancellatus. This case it is population with blue and white flowers. All earlier seen C. cancellatus populations were very uniform by base colour – it was white or bluish. Here both colours mixed together. But I pictured only blue ones - more variable and something different from earlier seen.
Navigator again turns me wrongly and guides me instead of Airport to labyrinth of Athen suburbs streets. We loose more than hour and when I start to become nervous, finally we are on road to Airport and can return car 10 minutes before deadline.
Weather was moderately warm, dry. I saw a lot of crocuses, Guna a lot f museums. We both together had fantastic holidays. During all trip I got only 3 receipts + museum tickets and now I’m not wondering about financial problems of Greek government.
Janis
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Thank you for the marvelous images and notes.
I enjoyed the tour. :D
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I second Armin's comments. Really enjoyed the pictures and your travel log Janis. Your photos are superb. Yikes about the prospect of being "lost" in the labyrinthine chaos of Athens with an uncooperative navigator!
Re crocus: If you go to the top of the first ridge on the road from Arachova (steep climbing road) to the point where you are looking down into the valley towards the "gingerbread" boxhouse village of, I think, Kalyvia Livadiou, to the right you will find great swathes of Crocus hadriaticus following the rocky outcrops along the slopes there. Crocus cancellatus seems to favour the grassier patches between the ridges, and Iris attica in both yellow and dusky-purple abound.
I think the stone at Delphi is the Omphalos, which marks the navel of the world, the point where two eagles released by Zeus met. Didn't Rhea wrap it in swaddling clothes to deceive Cronus, Zeus' father, who had a habit of eating his children?
Once again lovely to read your travel writing and may there be many more, and may you continue to post them.
Marcus
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I second Armin's comments. Really enjoyed the pictures and your travel log Janis. Your photos are superb. Yikes about the prospect of being "lost" in the labyrinthine chaos of Athens with an uncooperative navigator!
Once again lovely to read your travel writing and may there be many more, and may you continue to post them.
Marcus
I agree, here's hoping for many more tales of the travels of Guna and Janis 8)
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As always a fascinating, informative and entertaining account. Thank you Janis!
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Janis thank you for sharing your tour with us. It is always good to see plants in the wild as well as soaking up some of the local culture. Thank you.
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John Richards has posted an account of his recent travels in Greece looking at crocus. Some interesting ideas on possible hybrids are raised.
http://www.alpinegardensociety.net/diaries/Northumberland/+November+/390/
John asked me to share his report with Crocus Group members, many of whom will check in here. AGS members can add comments on the AGS site. I have already done so, hopefully not too controversially!
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Thanks for the note, Tony.... those photos of happy Crocus were just the tonic needed on a cold wet evening.
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Hi Janis,
I greatly enjoyed your account as I too am recently returned from looking at Crocus in the Peloponnese and you can read my account of the Alpine Garden Society website, 'Northumberland Diary', entry 195. At times I had considerable difficulty separating C. niveus from C. cancellatus and I should be interested to hear how you think your C. niveus from 'Tripoli, Velanidia differ from your C. cancellatus from Stemnitsa, as the stigma dissection seems very similar in both from the photos. I agree with you about the latter, but after a study of mixed populations in the Richia area, I think the key character is where the stigma is branched. In C. niveus it seems to branch only in the terminal 20% or so. Do you agree?
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John, it was good to read Tony's message last night with the link to your latest diary... a crocus lover's treat and no mistake. Not to mention that fine clump of Narcissus... quite delightful..... so nice to be able to enjoy these trips by proxy!
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Many thanks for interesting report of John Richards. It confirms that my trip was something too early. I really saw in significant numbers only 4 species - mostly boryi, in second place I would put hadriaticus, then follows niveus and as last on my list would be cancellatus. From goulimyi and laevigatus I saw only 2-3 specimens and no one of melantherus.
The easiest way to seperate cancellatus is just by corm tunics. There are no other species in this region with so strong reticulation. Degree of stigma branching is very variable. I saw specimens of cancellatus (in Turkey) with only triphid stigma as in pallasii. Niveus and hadriaticus can be separated very easy by flower shape and bract and bracteole color which in niveus is greenish but in hadriaticus white. Position of style to anthers in some species varie from season to season. More constant are point of dividing.
Hybridization for me seems something doubtfull. Not always fibrous structure on hadriaticus corm tunics are strongly expressed. Unfortunately low resolution don't allow to check tunics on attached picture.
Janis
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All these comments are interesting - and the photos are great. The season in Greece has been late this year. For various reasons I had to make an early visit to Kalamata and the Upper Mani between 17 October and 26 October and only saw C. boryi apart from a very few hadriaticus. However, there were vast swathes of Cyclamen, and plenty of Sternbergia, Colchicum Narcissus and Galanthus about to compensate!
We arrived at Athens in a heavy rainstorm on 17 October, and the next day were freezing in snow on the top of Mt Menalo. Our host in Kalamata said that this was the first autumn rain, and we saw no rain during our week. She tells me (yesterday) that they have still had no rain at all.
I entirely agree with John Richards comments in his AGS Diary, and probably visitors in November will see more. I shall try to post some of my pics when time allows.
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Hi Janis,
I greatly enjoyed your account as I too am recently returned from looking at Crocus in the Peloponnese and you can read my account of the Alpine Garden Society website, 'Northumberland Diary', entry 195. At times I had considerable difficulty separating C. niveus from C. cancellatus and I should be interested to hear how you think your C. niveus from 'Tripoli, Velanidia differ from your C. cancellatus from Stemnitsa, as the stigma dissection seems very similar in both from the photos. I agree with you about the latter, but after a study of mixed populations in the Richia area, I think the key character is where the stigma is branched. In C. niveus it seems to branch only in the terminal 20% or so. Do you agree?
Sorry, John,
Only now read your entry. Very hard working in last days. But I wrote after reading of your paper, that stigma in niveus really branch higher, but I want repeat - that without any doubt you can separate both by corm tunics. Branching and position of stigma can varie from plant to plant and from season to season. My bluish niveus flowers always are more rounded (something fat) in shape, but bluish cancellatus is much slender in bud. During this trip I didn't saw very deep colored niveus, as I saw 3 years ago on pass before Velanidea. That was really shockingly deep blue.
Janis