Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: mark smyth on September 05, 2011, 09:48:05 PM

Title: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 05, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
It's been many yers since I bought, grew and failed with Frit imperialis.

I could smell them in a local garden centre today but I resisted. Now I'm itching to try them again.

Is there a guaranteed way to grow them in the open garden?

Gritty soil or humus rich soil?
Upright or on their sides
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: PeterT on September 05, 2011, 10:01:08 PM
well drained works for me, they MUST have lime. I have them in a cool position where they never flower, A hot dry position next to Eremurus himalayicus which also flowers well (better than the frit) there. I give extra water and growmore to this spot in spring there is plenty of lime rubble here. Also in the west of scotland finally achieved a flower (for the second time in ten years) in a well drained cool position with some sun, by annual dressings of lime and fertiliser. I flower eduardii and raddeana in large pots with a 50 / 50 mix of JI 3 and fine grit + extra bone meal and dolomitic lime and a little peat or leaf mould in the mix. they like the pots to be plunged or kept cool.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 05, 2011, 10:16:17 PM
Mark

be sure they have roots when you buy them
without white or creamy roots they are many times dead
and plant them deep 20 cm soil above the bulb

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 05, 2011, 10:21:56 PM
I have lime stone sand would this do?

thanks for the advise
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Brian Ellis on September 05, 2011, 10:24:17 PM
Feed, feed, feed.  Dad used to grow them and always put loads of manure on them.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 06, 2011, 03:19:15 PM
Sorry forgot that

Brian is right

My grandfather always said
They love to swim in the shit  ;D

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on September 06, 2011, 08:50:15 PM
I have a large clump !
When I leave them in the ground all through the year I get little or no flowers... no matter how much fertilizer I give them..  :'(

If I dig them up when the leaves have shriveled and keep 'em dry in a paper bag in the shed, all through the summer and replant them in late August (when the roots start growing again) in well fertilized soil.... they flower like mad !!!  :D :D

For me, it's the dry summer that does the trick !!
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Nicholson on September 06, 2011, 09:22:06 PM
I read somewhere that the bulbs are best planted on their sides
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 06, 2011, 09:38:37 PM
David

Forget this as soon as possible
we call this a fairytale
If you want I explain you where the story comes from

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Nicholson on September 06, 2011, 09:42:34 PM
David

Forget this as soon as possible
we call this a fairytale
If you want I explain you where the story comes from

Roland


OK Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Pilling on September 06, 2011, 10:02:12 PM
But, Don Montague, expounded the theory about planting on their sides on TV only last week.

Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 06, 2011, 10:08:34 PM
For buying Fritillaria imperialis bulbs
always if you are not sure
buy bulbs with roots like picture 3
the first two pictures are probably good bulbs
but picture 3 is sure a good one

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 06, 2011, 10:09:13 PM
He did and I thought the bulb will eventually move back to the correct position.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 06, 2011, 10:12:31 PM
Other David

If you believe a fairytale
keep dreaming
if I start calling you John
and 2000 other people start calling you John
will not say your name is John

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 06, 2011, 10:12:42 PM
Luc I am jealous already. Tomorrow I must go and see what I can find

Maggi, how does Ian grow his?

Harold McBrides do fantastic in very deep leaf mould.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Nicholson on September 06, 2011, 10:15:10 PM
But, Don Montague, expounded the theory about planting on their sides on TV only last week.



That's where I heard it!
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 06, 2011, 10:16:06 PM
David I suppose it's like moving snowdrops in the green
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Pilling on September 06, 2011, 10:24:49 PM
Mark - good point about the bulb moving back.

So that hole is full of soil and the soil acts as a wick takes the water away?

It is interesting to see the ideas or myths that are mentioned on Gardeners World and how they come and go. In the last episode no mention of putting agapanthus in small pots to make them flower, but lots of emphasis on feeding. Compared to the previous time when it was small pots.

Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 06, 2011, 10:28:15 PM
and Agapanthus with big heads are less hardy than those with small heads  :-\
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: PeterT on September 06, 2011, 10:28:32 PM
I have a large clump !
When I leave them in the ground all through the year I get little or no flowers... no matter how much fertilizer I give them..  :'(

If I dig them up when the leaves have shriveled and keep 'em dry in a paper bag in the shed, all through the summer and replant them in late August (when the roots start growing again) in well fertilized soil.... they flower like mad !!!  :D :D

For me, it's the dry summer that does the trick !!
I agree about a dryish summer, but these bubs can dessicate if stored too dry, they are not rhinopetalums!
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 06, 2011, 10:36:34 PM
Ok

How the story starts

Once there was a bulb-salesman
who bought a lot of Fritillaria imperialis bulbs
with probably Rhizoctonia (I am not sure of it is this fungus, but we call it hart-rot)
because the bulbs are expensive
he is selling those sick bulbs

a year later the customers complain that none of the bulbs arrived

The bulb-salesman asked the customer how he planted the bulb
customer answers , with the hole (the old flower-stem was there) up

Salesman  O ,but than your bulb rotted , because water stays in the hole
and than the bulb rot
you have to plant the bulb on there side
so water can't stay in the hole

customer happy and buys new ones
salesman sells this time good bulbs (with roots are always healthy)
customer happy
and after twenty years the fairytale exist as true

its easy to control
there is a hole in the bottom from the bulb
just blow on the hole and you know

BTW I know the person who started the story
and it is not a friend


Roland




Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Pilling on September 06, 2011, 11:30:58 PM
there is a hole in the bottom from the bulb
just blow on the hole and you know

Oh. Thanks for explaining.

I had some once, they rotted, didn't work out the thing with the hole.

Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Maggi Young on September 07, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
There are so many "old wives tales" that get trotted out again and again.... the Beechgrove Garden on BBC Scotland last week was repeating the "plenty stones in the bottom for drainage" nonsense - it never seems to occur to these "experts" to address the question of properly draining  potting medium.  >:( 
One of the Beechgrove bods is very keen on wittering about " scientific basis"  but  I can't for the life of me see any science in most of what he says.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 07, 2011, 11:51:30 AM
The worst of all
I am a bulb-salesman
when those fairy-tales are on TV or in a magazine
you can say what you want
Many customer don't believe you ???
Because it was ......................... who said it was true :'(

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Pilling on September 07, 2011, 12:15:59 PM
repeating the "plenty stones in the bottom for drainage" nonsense - it never seems to occur to these "experts" to address the question of properly draining  potting medium.  >:( 

I would like to see someone on TV demonstrate that their mix is better drained, often they throw a handful of sand into a wheelbarrow of compost.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 07, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
I use 20% Black Lava 10-20 mm in my potting mixture
it works fantastic

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: monocotman on September 07, 2011, 01:58:55 PM
hi,

In our last house we had a huge frit. imperialis that flowered well for several years. It grew to be over 5 feet tall.
It was never fed and grew in a sunny border. However we did live on the edge of the norfolk 'brecks'.
The soil here has no real structure at all - it was virtually all sand.
If you dug a hole to plant something the edges would keep falling in.
I've also grown them well in a poor thin calcareous soil over sand.
I think that drainage is the key to success along with a sunny position,

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 09, 2011, 01:56:28 PM
So in summary

plant deep, nose up, rich soil and added lime?

Will I add limestone sand above or below the bulbs?
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 09, 2011, 02:30:45 PM
Never below the bulbs in the garden
you create a swimming-pool if it is raining a lot

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: mark smyth on September 09, 2011, 02:39:34 PM
Thanks Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Boyed on September 09, 2011, 08:00:10 PM
My experience with frit. imperilis shows that they like very sunny position, very well-drained soil, preferably rich with nutrients. In such conditions they grow and bloom perfectly and can not be harvested for several years.

If the soil is moiture-keeping, it is better to put sand under and above the bulb to prevent rotting, and in this case annual harvesting is preferable. Exposing the bulbs to the higher temperatures during storage stumulates flowering of even smaller bulbs.

Planting bulbs on their sides make no sence. It is just a fairytail. It is true, there is a hole in the bulb, but it is not a one-side hole and water doesn't keep in this hole.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 09, 2011, 10:19:32 PM
Boyed

The sand-layer under plants is also a fairy-tale
it is one of the most stupid thing to do

I will explain why

The system is stolen from the botanic gardens
where they use it in pots for drainage

The big difference is:
A pot has a hole where the water can go out
a garden doesn't have a hole
especial for the more heavy soils
where you create a swimming-pool if it rains a lot
I hope one day that they stop talking about this fairy-tale

Roland
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Boyed on September 10, 2011, 08:21:15 PM
Roland,

I don't very much trust the books, and in my opinion, the best is learning from growing experience. In my main garden, where the soil is moisture keeping, from year to year I lost some frit. imperialis bulbs, beacause of rotting. Since I started to put sand under and over the bulbs, I never had rotted bulbs. In my opininon, when you use sand the probability of rotting is minimized as fungas doen't live in the sand. But when you pland the bulb directly in the soil, then the bulbs is in direct contact with the soil, and in case of extra humidity the fungas can easily attack the bulb.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: bulborum on September 10, 2011, 09:02:35 PM
Boyed

As long as you don't have a lot wet weeks
probably it works fine
but if it rains a lot
the drainage in the direction from your sand-bed is fantastic
and then the water stays in your sand-bed
and you have your swimming-pool

as long as the soil absorbs the water it is fine
but when you have a summer like we have this year
sure they will rot

better to plant them on little slopes
with a lot of sand mixed in
they are always dry that way

But probably the summers in Armenia are much drier as here

Roland

 
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: PeterT on September 11, 2011, 12:41:57 AM
Rolands theory, -that a hole in clay, filled with sand and bulbs will flood with heavy rain is correct. If the soil is not clay, or slopes,  and drains quickly, then sand hopefully will protect the bulb.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Arda Takan on September 11, 2011, 10:27:46 AM
what about altitude?
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Boyed on September 12, 2011, 05:44:24 PM
Roland,

The thing is that we live in very rainy area. I line in the North of Armenia, where the weather is quite rainy. Would you believe if i say that this year we had dayly rains from mid March until mid summer without any breaks.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: David Nicholson on September 12, 2011, 07:17:56 PM
Roland,

The thing is that we live in very rainy area. I line in the North of Armenia, where the weather is quite rainy. Would you believe if i say that this year we had dayly rains from mid March until mid summer without any breaks.

Sounds like Devon ;D
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Boyed on September 12, 2011, 07:30:15 PM
Roland,

The thing is that we live in very rainy area. I line in the North of Armenia, where the weather is quite rainy. Would you believe if i say that this year we had dayly rains from mid March until mid summer without any breaks.

Sounds like Devon ;D

Sounds strange, but it is true. There were many sunndy day, but with evening rains.
Title: Re: Frit. imperialis
Post by: Maggi Young on September 12, 2011, 07:45:05 PM
Yes, Zhirair, we had lots of days like that here, but sometimes with rain in the morning then sun or sunny morning and rain in the afternoon or evening. There were not too many days when it rained ALL day.... but that is how it seemed to us!  :-X :'(
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