Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Cultivation => Composts => Topic started by: David Nicholson on August 13, 2011, 03:53:46 PM
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To save myself a round trip of approaching 200 miles to buy Green Ore compost this year I have used J Arthur Bowers John Innes no 2 and no 3 for my bulb re-potting. I have to say that I found the quality had deteriorated since I last used it and I had to sieve it to get rid of large lumps of wood and other undecayed material. Has anyone else had a similar problem with this range?
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David
I use Levington and that has large lumps of peat and sundry other things in it. I sift it out as I am using it.
I have tried quite a range and the only benefit I get from this one is it is in sealed bags and stored undercover at my local garden centre and it is therefore most of the time dry to handle
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I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
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David
...............I have tried quite a range and the only benefit I get from this one is it is in sealed bags and stored undercover at my local garden centre and it is therefore most of the time dry to handle
Are you able to get dry sand and grit as well Tony? At all my sources here they are stored outside and usually wet through. Last year I got my supplies earlier and spread them out in trays on the garage floor, this year I forgot to do that.
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I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
I've got a "thing" about Westland products (it's an age thing!!) and don't buy them. It's really to do with many garden centres stocking only Westland products and thereby not offering me a choice.
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david
I bought sand yesterday and it was just a slurry in the bag.
I have spread it on the greenhouse floor to dry it if only the sun would appear.
I bought my grit as two,one ton pallets last year and I have to store it outside so it is very wet. Again I open the bags and then spread it on the garage floor to dry as I need it.
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I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
I've got a "thing" about Westland products (it's an age thing!!) and don't buy them. It's really to do with many garden centres stocking only Westland products and thereby not offering me a choice.
Me too David. Even more of an age thing in my case - creature of habit that I am.
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David
I agree with you about J Arthur Bowers deteriorating quality. Think I might develop tennis elbow with all the sieving necessary to remove 'rubbish'.
Applies equally to their multipurpose compost - recommended B & Q and found this to be much better.
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"Rosedale" was recommended to me a couple of years ago and I'm quite happy with it ! :D
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It's less miles for you to get Rosedale than it is for me Luc ;D
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David
I agree with you about J Arthur Bowers deteriorating quality. Think I might develop tennis elbow with all the sieving necessary to remove 'rubbish'.
Applies equally to their multipurpose compost - recommended B & Q and found this to be much better.
I did another age "thing". I emailed them to complain will post the reply if I get one.
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Rosedale compost available within 10 miles of me - and I get a trade discount :) :) :)
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;D ;D ;D
I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
I've got a "thing" about Westland products (it's an age thing!!) and don't buy them. It's really to do with many garden centres stocking only Westland products and thereby not offering me a choice.
Can anybody clarify this Westland mistery for me ?? Any particular reason why you guys don't seem to like it ??
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;D ;D ;D
I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
I've got a "thing" about Westland products (it's an age thing!!) and don't buy them. It's really to do with many garden centres stocking only Westland products and thereby not offering me a choice.
I've never tried Westland - I'd like to hear from anyone who has. They do seem to be taking over the whole (garden centre) world.
Can anybody clarify this Westland mistery for me ?? Any particular reason why you guys don't seem to like it ??
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;D ;D ;D
I always use J Arthur Bowers but my local garden centre is not stocking it this year. They have Westland instead. Has anyone tried this?
I've got a "thing" about Westland products (it's an age thing!!) and don't buy them. It's really to do with many garden centres stocking only Westland products and thereby not offering me a choice.
Can anybody clarify this Westland mistery for me ?? Any particular reason why you guys don't seem to like it ??
No real reason Luc, I did say it was an age thing! It's really to do with Westland taking over the market and consumers being denied choice. It's an "Islanders" thinking ;D
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I had to return J Arthur Bowers JI compost so often because of enormous lumps of dry peat and apparent lack of loam, that I will never buy it again. My nearest garden centre have stopped stocking it because they had so many complaints. They now stock Erin JI which I find quite acceptable. I mix with extra grit/sand/perlite/leafmould etc depending what I'm going to use it for.
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If you can get the stuff made by Keith Singleton in Cockermouth I can recommend it. Only stockists I know of are in Cumbria and North Lancs.
The Bowers stuff I've seen the last few years is definitely very poor.
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The Bowers stuff I've seen the last few years is definitely very poor.
I've used J Arthur Bowers John Innes for years & I can't say I've noticed much change in quality. Perhaps it varies in different parts of the country, though this seems unlikely. Perhaps I'm just unobservant. Mixed with equal parts of grit & perlite most bulbs grow well in it. This year I'm thinking of trying Homebase &/or Westland since they seem easier to get. I see from their website that Bowers is the only JI stocked by the local 'Fargro' who supply the horticultural trade.
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What I've especially noticed is that, as I now try to repot only every two years, the Bowers stuff looks exhausted after one season (dusty and with little organic content remaining). The Singleton I used last year has still looked good this year in the pots I've knocked out to send spare bulbs to forumists.
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The Bowers stuff I've seen the last few years is definitely very poor.
I've used J Arthur Bowers John Innes for years & I can't say I've noticed much change in quality. Perhaps it varies in different parts of the country, though this seems unlikely. Perhaps I'm just unobservant. Mixed with equal parts of grit & perlite most bulbs grow well in it. This year I'm thinking of trying Homebase &/or Westland since they seem easier to get. I see from their website that Bowers is the only JI stocked by the local 'Fargro' who supply the horticultural trade.
Gerry
You would have to be blind not to see the change in quality. Approx 20% of the compost is hard lumps of peat, and these still show up after mixing with grit and perlite. I will not buy it unless I run out and need compost urgently - my local garden centre only stocks it, and the alternatives involve a considerable drive.
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Arthur - true, I am short sighted, but your description is not true of the stuff I bought last year. Maybe there are considerable batch variations*. I haven't seen any this year.
*A second thought. I seem to remember some time ago that David N posted a picture of his sample of Bowers & thinking it looked quite different to the stuff I had.
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I'm contemplating ordering from this Surrey-based supplier ('free' delivery to Kent & Sussex).
http://www.gardenclever.com/john-innes-no-3-compost-in-lined-bulk-bag-includes-delivery-1255-p.asp
A bulk bag works out at £2-60 per 25 litres. They do smaller deliveries of 20 bags (of 25 litres),
but it works out at the same price as garden centres. If it turns out to be no good, I guess I can use it up
somewhere in the garden.
I did get some of that wonderful Somerset JI No3 last year, but sadly they don't deliver even in bulk.
Malcolm.
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...........*A second thought. I seem to remember some time ago that David N posted a picture of his sample of Bowers & thinking it looked quite different to the stuff I had.
Yes I did Gerry, it was a picture comparison of Green Ore and J Arthur Bowers, here they are again
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By the way I did Email the manufacturers of the J Arthur Bowers range, William Sinclair Horticulture Ltd and have been asked to provide them with a sample of the compost I complained about-they are providing a bag and postal costs.
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Mine was like that - the big lumps and fibrous masses I sieved out comprised 25% of the volume.
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This information on the composition of J Arthur Bowers JI 3 is from the Sinclair website:
"COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Chemical characterisation of active components: Loam, peat, composted green material,
limestone, grit and nutrients Including potassium nitrate, sulphate of ammonia, mono ammonium phosphate and trace elements."
The presence of "composted green material" might raise a few eyebrows.
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:o
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Mmmm! Notice it doesn't say how much loam, I suspect very little and far less than the original JI recipes specify. Just to compare I forced myself to buy a bag of Westland JI No 2 yesterday. Much finer than JA Bowers but didn't feel to me that it had much loam content and I think they threw the grit in from a distance and missed!
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David - I suspect that few, if any, of the widely available JI composts conform to the original formula (7:3:2). I wonder on what basis they can use the name? I've just bought some Levington JI3 & while it is fairly even in texture - no big lumps or rubbish - I think the loam content is minimal.
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Gerry, you may find this of interest.
http://www.johninnes.info/index.htm
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Thanks for the link David. I've emailed these people to ask how they justify using the 'John Innes' name. I'll post their reply - if any - here.
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Copy below of an Email I have sent to the John Innes Manufacturers' Association. Like Gerry, I will post any reply here as I will also post any reply I receive from the manufacturer of the J Arthur Bowers range.
I would urge any Forumist who is concerned about the quality of their JI Compost to complain similarly. The Web Site for the JI Manufacturers' Association is given in reply 28.
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Dear Sirs,
I am currently in correspondence with the manufacturers of the above range
regarding the quality of their product. I have complained that I needed to
sieve the product in order to remove large pieces of wood and other
non-composted materials to render it fine enough to use as a potting
compost. I am content at the moment to let the manufacturer respond to my
complaint.
With my complaint I have submitted two digital images, one showing the JAB
compost and the other a JI compost produced by FA Smith Ltd of Green Ore
near Wells Somerset. The two are as different as chalk and cheese. The FA
Smith sample is fine but shows an excellent loam, sand and grit content
exactly as I would expect from a John Innes compost. The JAB compost, in my
view, has a minimal loam and grit content and, in my view should not be sold
as a John Innes compost.
Today I purchased a bag of Westland JI No 2 to compare. It is a nice fine
friable mix but certainly does not feel to have much of a loam content not
is any grit discernible.
It is my view that all manufacturers should be obliged to disclose the
percentage content by volume of loam, sand, grit and peat (or peat
substitute) in their products and thus allowing consumers to make properly
informed choices. It seems to me that manufacturers are free to avoid the
quality issue.
I would welcome your comments.
David Nicholson
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David - older gardening books gave a procedure for assessing the quality of JI. Place a quantity in a screw-top jar, part-fill with water & give a good shake. Allow to settle. The ingredients will form distinct layers - grit-sand on the bottom & peat on the top - which allow one to estimate the relative quantities of the components. It seems that in the old days manufacturers skimped on the peat, nowadays it seems to be the loam (or what passes for loam) which is in short supply.
The JI Manufacturers Association website seems to suggest that anything which is made by one of their members is entitled to the name irrespective of the constituents.
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Gerry I tried the old test on JAB and Westland, result: little discernable loam. Perhaps not the most scientific of tests but it gives a very good idea!
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Extract from a letter received from William Sinclair Horticulture Ltd, the manufacturer of the J Arthur Bowers brand after I had provided a sample (of the compost Mr Booker in case you read this ;D ) and the product code from the bag in question
"............. The compost was made in September last year when we had a problem with a broken screen. Although we were extra careful with checking compost which was being produced it appears that some of the peat had not been broken down in the production process. This had then found its way through the screen and into the compost mixes. Obviously this should not have happened and I would like to apologise for you getting some compost which was sub-standard. During October 2010 we closed the factory for maintenance and repaired the broken screen. We do not like our customers to be unhappy or to receive substandard compost and therefore I am enclosing £15 vouchers for you to use against future purchases of our products of your choice."............
A stock response I'm sure since this is not the first poor bag of this product I have bought. I shall use the vouchers to buy more and if necessary will complain again.
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William Sinclair Horticulture Ltd/J Arthur Bowers seem to have trouble with screens. A few days ago I bought bags of 'Sharp Sand' & 'Grit Sand'; whereas the former contained substantial amounts of grit, the latter contained almost no grit at all.
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Complain Gerry, I don't see why we should let them off the hook for inferior products.
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The Sale of Goods Act 1979 covers you. See here http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advice/treating-customers-fairly/sogahome/;jsessionid=36BB8855A0339D3D2D6A596A1A3A9165
Most reputable companies will try and sort it out, as if a person is not satisfied there will tell at least 10 others about there poor experience of that company. But if there get a better than expected response from them they will tell 20 people. So it is in their interest to go the extra mile and keep you on their side.
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This information on the composition of J Arthur Bowers JI 3 is from the Sinclair website:
"COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Chemical characterisation of active components: Loam, peat, composted green material,
limestone, grit and nutrients Including potassium nitrate, sulphate of ammonia, mono ammonium phosphate and trace elements."
The presence of "composted green material" might raise a few eyebrows.
The following is the reply I received from the John Innes Manufacturers Association with whom I raised this issue:
"I can confirm that I have been in touch with Sinclairs’ representative on the John Innes Manufacturers Association about their product, J Arthur Bowers John Innes. He immediately checked their website and was as surprised as you to discover the reference to ‘composted green material’. This was an error and I can assure you that the website is being carefully proof read as a result!
I will bring your concerns to the attention of JIMA to ensure that our standards are maintained.
Kind regards
Innes"
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..... so, there is no "composted green material" in it? And I'm The Duke of York!!!!! ;D
I haven't had a reply yet from JI Manufacturers Association.
Today I used the vouchers William Sinclair Horticulture Ltd sent me following my complaint about the quality of J Arhur Bowers JI No 2. I obtained 2 bags of No 2 and two bags of No 3 and if it is of the same quality as that I complained about I shall complain again.
It takes little time to fire off an Email and if we don't complain we shall continue to get very poor value for money. If you are are a JI user and you're not satisfied with the product you're using do please complain.
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I bought some Homebase own brand JI No. 2 the other day ready to start repotting and it was pretty good. No big lumps, good loam content.
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I wonder who makes the Homebase JI? Is it a rebranded version of one of the mainstream products?
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I know we are not able to use peat based composts any more, but these manufacturers knew this ten years ago, so they've had ample time to sort out what they are going to sell us, and uncomposted chunks like those David showed have been in my composts this year too. I don't believe it has anything to do with a broken sieve as the same stuff I bought up here at various times this year have been roughly the same. I reckon they are just having a laugh myself because they know the vast majority of customers won't bother to complain. Good going David to get a bit of money out of them, especially when they are now charging so much more for a bag of compost. Now, have I got the strength to start writing complaint letters, hmmm. A friend uses compost from B&Q that they say is much better, but that store is about 25 miles from here. Has anyone used any of the Levington products this year yet? If so, what do you think of them?
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Chris - I'm currently repotting using Levington JI. Although I haven't got around to assessing the loam content, it doesn't look too bad - only a few lumps of hard peat & a small amount of unidentifiable fibrous stuff - & seems identical to the Levington JI I had last year. As regards B&Q, my local branch only stocks Westland JI - one of the 'mass-market' brands. I regularly use Levington Multi Purpose but only for digging into the soil before planting herbaceous material, so I have no idea how it behaves in pots.
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Thanks Gerry. I only use my multi purpose to mix with sand, grit, perlite etc for various plants. Rarely would I use it 'neat'. Maybe I'll try a bag then. The compost at B&Q was their own brand, so its anybody's guess what it really is...
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According to the JI Manufacturers Association Web Site the supplier of JI to B&Q is Bord Na Ma Horticulture Ltd, Main Street, Newbridge, Co. Kildare, Ireland-Web Site www.bnm.ie/horticulture
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Well researched David. What a snoop you are..... :o