Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: Paul T on August 10, 2011, 03:35:00 AM
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Howdy All,
Are any of us on the forum being affected by the riots in London the last few days? It is the first item on our news broadcasts at present, particularly after last night was apparently particularly nasty. :'( And it is spreading out of London as well now? How accurate ARE our reports on the news, or are they exaggerating it for the sake of a story?
Either way, all the best to anyone of our members or readers who are being affected by this. Some of the pics look awful. Here's hoping something sorts out soon and peace returns. :-\
All the best.
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Well we're seeing pictures of terrible fires so I don't think the news stories are exaggerated much. Last night's news made me think of the London Blitz. It beggars belief that young people would do such stupid things while all they're achieving is the derstruction of their own communities. With electonic media now able to bring in so many outsiders at a moment's notice as well, the MOB truly takes over and rules, while common sence goes out the window. I feel for the general population who live in these areas and just want the violence to stop and to be able to get on with their lives again.
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Howdy All,
Are any of us on the forum being affected by the riots in London the last few days? It is the first item on our news broadcasts at present, particularly after last night was apparently particularly nasty. :'( And it is spreading out of London as well now? How accurate ARE our reports on the news, or are they exaggerating it for the sake of a story?
Either way, all the best to anyone of our members or readers who are being affected by this. Some of the pics look awful. Here's hoping something sorts out soon and peace returns. :-\
All the best.
No Paul I don't think they are exaggerating. Its really terrible. I think we are all embarrassed how some people in our country are acting. I can only say that I am angry and to think three people have been killed trying to keep their property safe. I am not going to say anymore as it makes me angry. I am going away to my greenhouse where I am in my own little world.
Hope everyone is well.
Angie
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Sadly the problems seem to be spreading to other cities as well in England. On the news last night it was said there was trouble in Wolverhampton..... but I'm pretty sure Diane C. wasn't out looting for new trainers.... ;)
Truly ghastly happenings... how someone hasn't been trapped in a flat above some of the burning shops I really don't know.
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Maggi,
On tonight's news they were talking about Wolverhampton and about 3 major places north or west of there as well. Also how this is affecting perception of the leadup to the Olympics. It all looks dreadful. :o
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This is worth reading, written by an intelligent and thoughtful journalist blogger: http://pennyred.blogspot.com/
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If this was the USA all the looters would be shot on the spot - I think. All the cops do is stand and watch
Why is the government not willing to bring in water canons with UV water or use rubber bullets
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If this was the USA all the looters would be shot on the spot - I think. All the cops do is stand and watch
Why is the government not willing to bring in water canons with UV water or use rubber bullets
They are . Just heard on the news whilst having lunch they are going to do just that. They showed a clip of this young guy that had being beaten up and folks seemly trying to help him, but no someone was robbing him not helping him. What kind of low life would do that.
Angie :)
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But the qualification is they must have 24 hours notice to bring in the water, not sure about the plastic bullets though. It doesn't take this mob 24 hours to decide to go somewhere else to create havoc so that is a waste of time by the sound of it. Something big needs to be done. Time to get really tough on these vandals and thieves.
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UK definition of poverty... not having the latest 32+ inch LCD TV.
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Meanwhile the banks, which created the crash which has contributed to the bad feeling, are making more money than ever by charging interest at inflated rates to countries that have had to borrow funds to keep functioning! >:(
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The UK riots and their possible effects on the Olympic Games, puts into proper perspective the anger felt here about the price for an All Black rugby jersey ($220 when it can be bought for half that online) and the damaging effect it will have on the Rugby World Cup and its sponsor Rebel Sports. Their management is arguing that they support rugby with a lot of money which they have to recoup through their rugby products. In other words, they expect the public to do the sponsoring, not the firm itself, at all. Creeps! Apparently Rebel Sports also caused an Online source to delete from their list of countries which can order the jersies, the New Zealand entry. I have sympathy with the 2000 people who have so far bought from one North Island source, and have blacked out the Adidas logo from their jersies.
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UK definition of poverty... not having the latest 32+ inch LCD TV.
Good Grief!
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My daughter who works in Manchester said that some mothers were pelting the police while their children were looting.
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My daughter who works in Manchester said that some mothers were pelting the police while their children were looting.
Good grief... again! That makes Fagin sound like a social worker. :-X
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The seed of the current troubles was sown many years ago when the government went soft on youths.
They took the Discipline out of the schools and replaced it with counselling. They stopped parents disciplining their children. Then topped it off by taking the power from the Police to give a youth a clip up the ear.
The current political answer is we are giving the police all the resources needed. Which translates to stop them but do it nicely.
What hope is there!
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This morning on the news was a report where a young man was beaten up by a group of eleven year olds and while he was still dazed knocked down and robbed by another group of youths, and they are planning to raise the age of criminality!
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It's my right to a new colour telly and someone else's to provide it!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/8693000/London-and-UK-riots-50-powerful-images.html?image=44
Forget debates about capital punishment, bring back corporal punishment...
E-petitions urge MPs to debate return of death penalty
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14400246
Last night, the BBC showed film of police beating looters on the back of the legs with batons.
I don't know if they were trying to air an item on police brutality, but my first thoughts were 'good, serves them right'.
Fortunately, (Royal) Tunbridge Wells has been pretty peaceful!!
Malcolm.
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I am too am deeply distressed by this bad behaviour - mob culture -but I am also annoyed on all the blame being leveled at the inequality that is sadly part of our society.
I am a socialist and am offended on behalf of all the genuinely poor hard working, law abiding people in our country the majority of whom would never behave in this way.
Those going through the courts show that they are not deprived just greedy jumping on the bandwaggon of free goods. Obviously criminals and gang culture are involved.
Sadly those of in our society who are genuinely in need of help will now see further cuts as all the costs of the riots have now been added to the debt we have to pay.
Meanwhile the banks, which created the crash which has contributed to the bad feeling, are making more money than ever by charging interest at inflated rates to countries that have had to borrow funds to keep functioning!
Do not be diverted by this common assumption that it is all the fault of the banks - yes they were irresponsible in the extreme and our government has had to put money in to shore them and our economy up but in time and if the government handle it well that money should come back.
The real problem is that our governments have for the last 15 or 20 years being spending well beyond their means - that is why the worst offenders are having to pay inflated interest rates. Even during the days of maximum economic growth and massive oil revenues coming into the tax system they still over spent. Many household have done the same and built up massive debts on credit cards which is one of the next big problems along with pensions we all have to face.
Spending beyond your means is fine as long as there is economic growth and you know that next year you will take in more money to pay the ever growing debt.Then came the banks crisis, caused by people spending beyond their means (I accept many were manipulated into this situation by devious salesmen) which caused our economies to go into decline and reduced the income to the government.
Sadly you cannot borrow your way out of debt and that is what many governments seem to be doing.
I don't know when or how it will all end - it is too depressing to think but I do know the real value in this life is not money but friends like we have in this forum and our club.
Like Angie I am off to the garden - the rain has stopped and it will take my mind off of these problems.
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An interesting read with a Clydeside perspective...
Rioters without a cause
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/08/10/rioters-without-a-cause/
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I am too am deeply distressed by this bad behaviour - mob culture -but I am also annoyed on all the blame being leveled at the inequality that is sadly part of our society.
I am a socialist and am offended on behalf of all the genuinely poor hard working, law abiding people in our country the majority of whom would never behave in this way.
Those going through the courts show that they are not deprived just greedy jumping on the bandwaggon of free goods. Obviously criminals and gang culture are involved.
Sadly those of in our society who are genuinely in need of help will now see further cuts as all the costs of the riots have now been added to the debt we have to pay.
nicely put Ian. :)
It is too easy to tar everyone with the same brush and lay blame on one group within a society, when in reality the blame should be placed upon the individuals committing the crime.
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I think, despite the many complexities of this situation, that it's still worth bearing in mind that there is a long established correlation between the level of inequality within a society and the likelihood of this kind of behaviour occurring. Many studies across a wide range of countries have shown that the greater the inequalities within a society between the haves and the have-nots, the more of this kind of incident you're likely to see, and to me that looks like a problem that needs addressing quite apart from the particular detail and flavour of any one incident. The gap in the UK between the most well-off and the least well-off has been widening for decades now, under both left and right wing governments, and that is bound to increase resentments in a general way, whatever the particular circumstances of an individual event. In the long run the studies indicate that the only sure way to reduce the incidence of this kind of thing generally is to narrow the inequality gap.
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Interestingly, social studies also indicate that in countries where the inequality gap is less wide, generally speaking everyone ends up feeling a bit happier with their lot, not just the poorest. Presumably because many of the more well-off feel less uncomfortable about how much more they have if they know that the gap between them and the poorest is not obscenely large. And possibly because they also have to worry less about this sort of situation arising. Or maybe many of them just feel it's fairer. Whatever the reasons, that's what the studies indicate.
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The gap in the UK between the most well-off and the least well-off has been widening for decades now, under both left and right wing governments, and that is bound to increase resentments in a general way, whatever the particular circumstances of an individual event. In the long run the studies indicate that the only sure way to reduce the incidence of this kind of thing generally is to narrow the inequality gap.
Martin,
Not just in the UK. I think this is generally happening world-wide. The US in particular I think at the moment is struggling with this. High levels of unemployment, few job opportunities, economy under threat..... that all applies to have the western world at present I think. ::)
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I agree Martin.
I presume one of the social studies you refer to is that by Richard Wilkinson & Kate Pickett - The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better. This should be compulsory reading for all politicians.
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No wonder these kids think stealing trainers is OK. Everyone makes excuses for them
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100161/no-wonder-these-kids-think-stealing-trainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/
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I haven't noticed anyone making excuses for them. We need to get beyond Daily Telegraph-style expressions of outrage.
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I seem to remember, in another age, similar grumblings leading to riots, supposedly caused by a lack of understanding by those that have of those that don't ("let them eat cake").
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I haven't noticed anyone making excuses for them. We need to get beyond Daily Telegraph-style expressions of outrage.
Not making excuses for them? Let's start with the terminology. "Rioters". Rioters? These are arsonists, thieves, conspirators, thugs, murderers. Call it as it is.
The BBC did an interview with two girls who were involved in this disorder......and retained their anonymity. They should have named and shamed them.
Unemployed, poor. So what? There are thousands of unemployed and poor people all over the world. They don't all behave like this.
Inequality between poor and rich. Am I entitled to have a gripe and employ anarchy as my tool of choice because I drive a Ford and my neighbor drives a Bentley?
The UK has been making excuses for these cretins for as long as I can remember. No discipline at home, no discipline in the school systems. Spare the rod and spoil the child. 11 year olds on the streets during these events. Believe me, if I had an 11 year old, they wouldn't have been on the streets at that time of the night anyway, let alone when all this was going down.
I am sure many forumists will disagree with my viewpoint but don't tell me that we are not making excuses for them. And even worse, any young person who wears a hoodie, baggy pants or a pair of new trainers is going to be cast as "one of them" by the other cretins who tar everyone with the same brush.
This has nothing to do with the economy, unemployment or hard times. These are opportunistic troublemakers, devoid of morals....and the uneducated sheep who want to follow them on to the bandwagon.
Forget capital punishment....find another penal colony somewhere and pack them all off without their iPhones and see how they like that.
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I never have supported and don't and never will support the death penalty, in any circumstance as I believe it makes those who apply it as barbaric as those to whom it may be applied but there's good reason to give many young people a thorough kick up the end as a salutory lesson and to discourage further offending.
The death penalty is one reason why I never sign petitons on matters of crime and punishment (saving the local penguin colony, sure) and the binding petition on any criminal or political matter is truly an abomination as it ensures the mob rules, or, to be more restrained in terminology, those whose ideology is extreme, fanatical and (almost always) ultra right wing, will win the day and ensure that dangerous and sometimes downright evil intentions are bound into law.
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I agree with all your comments Alan. But the remarks about hoodies, tracksuit and trainers made me smile: When I was in the bus queue last night a young lad wearing exactly that 'uniform' joined us carrying a new dartboard. One of the pensioners asked him here he had looted it from....
I confess it made me laugh at the time (dry, robust, northern humour at it's sharpest) but my feelings on it are quite mixed really.
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I'd like to make clear that I'm not in any way defending the actions of the looters. I was just trying to say that at some point there has to be a discussion about how this kind of incident can be prevented in the future, and the studies indicate that (whatever anyone might feel about it) there is a higher incidence of this kind of disturbance in societies where there are very large inequality gaps than in societies where the inequality gap is narrower. Logic suggests that this needs to be part of the answer (perhaps not the whole answer, but at least part of it) and that politicians allowing the inequality gap to continually widen is likely to make things worse, not better.
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Apologies for sounding a bit like Spock pontificating on the bridge of the USS Enterprise.
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I agree with you. Public spending is being reduced because there is less money, probably because it is now heading into the private sector who are making more money than ever. The people with less depend on public services which are now being cut. It always annoys me when the politicians tell us that reducing the spending will not reduce services, such as education. They then spend more than the average salary sending 'Horatia' to some private school, not for the education, but to keep them away from the "riff-raff".
Live long and prosper Martin.
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Tai nasha no karosha, Martin.
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It seems in a way that the brilliant piece in "Life of Brian" - 'I am not an individual!' sums a lot up. You are either part of a crowd or you think for your self. The latter is hard. It can only come with good education and a level of tolerance for others. This sort of terrible behaviour will always be around - the trick is trying to stop it being expressed. But I would hate to be one of the people trying to control things when they go wrong. I would agree that the great disparities in wealth that can build up in society underlie a lot of this, plus a lack of respect and understanding of others, something that must be a consequence of family breakdown. Wealth and initiative makes society develop but also leads to envy and greed. Values tend to become more obvious when times are hard, individually or collectively, though sadly probably not to the people who need them most!
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Lack of respect and consideration for other people is certainly part of this problem and I think a major problem in society at large these days - people of all kinds seeming to think that they only need to take into consideration what they want without ever considering how what they do and how they behave can impact on others around them. Rudeness and barefaced self-centredness seem to be on the increase generally.
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I normally avoid political, social and religious posts, but following on the heels of some of Martin's comments---
As a member of the "poor and disenfranchised" I was a 17 year old living with my single mom and sister in the downtown ghetto when Detroit burned for 5 days in 1967. Although publicly branded as a "race riot," the five days of madness, fire and looting were sparked by a single event (as they usually are)---and were certainly not limited to race. The "trigger" is almost always a psychological "last straw" to a life of poverty in a society marked by inequality (socio-economic and otherwise).
After the fact, the Kerner Commission reported the "causes of the riot" as: housing, unemployment, quality of public education, access to medical services, policing, spatial segregation within the city, mistreatment by merchants, shortage of recreational facilities and “the way the war on poverty operated in Detroit.”
To this day, I know that the color of my skin was *the only thing* that ultimately saved me from the fate that many of my then-neighbours succumbed to, both during the riots and in the years after, as we worked to claw our way out of what felt like insurmountable obstacles in a society of haves and have nots.
Because I am an ultimate "success story" considering my socio-economic roots; does not mean that we are all equal and able to achieve success "if we just try". The variables are infinitely more complex than that although they seem easy to analyze when on the outside looking in.
I "escaped" from the economic disparity of life in the USA as quickly as I could upon becoming an adult, away from the underlying current of constant unrest and fear.
Life in Canada, from the beginning, felt full of possibility and hope. What was different? This was a country not yet poisoned by inequality and it is here where I was able to fully become who I am and realize my human potential.
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Many socail injustices here too that have to be addressed but as in the Vancouver riot of a few months ago I bet when the scoundrels are lined up before the judge you will find quite a few affluent young people.
johnw
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This sums it all up!
People born before 1946 were called The Silent generation..
- People born between 1946 and 1959 are called The Baby Boomers
- People born between 1960 and 1979 are called Generation X
- And people born between 1980 and 2010 are called Generation Y
Why do we call the last group Generation Y?
Y should I get a job?
Y should I leave home and find my own place?
Y should I get a car when I can borrow yours?
Y should I clean my room?
Y should I wash and iron my own clothes?
Y should I buy any food?
But a cartoonist has explained it very eloquently...
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I just went front of a mirror and didn´t see the Y. Then I turned around, bent and saw the X or should I say * :D
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;D
The riots have reached Edinburgh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE&sns=f
[This link appears to have been stopped. Imagine an empty street apart from a chap standing next to a couple of wheely bins. Suddenly his hand slowly moves up and tips the empty wheely bin over.]
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I am sure there is deprivation in Scotland and Wales, yet looting and arson did not occur.
Rioting in Northern Ireland is almost, if not entirely, 'politically' motivated.
Why do the English riot, loot and set fire to their community >:( :( ???
Why do they attack ordinary shopkeepers - hairdressers, greengrocers etc. Looting the jewellery store, the Carphone Warehouse and the electrical stores is understandable if greed was the only reason.
Salford has been the centre for huge community efforts over the last several years, yet it was the scene of some of the worst riots.
I don't know the answers, but I certainly hope they are found.
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Kristl and Martin thank you for posting your points of view.
Empathy seems to be lacking in much of society.
If people could walk in the other's shoes our society might be a whole lot more tolerant of others.
The riots, boat people, and wind farms seem to be dividing people locally.
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Perhaps our poor and disenfranchised are more timid than those in some other countries because in many cases there is genuine reason for those people to kick up a hell of a fuss yet in the main, they do nothing, just take it. I read in yesterday's Otago Daily times of rioters who stormed a prominent food store in Dunedin's main street. I knew it wasn't recent because that store has been gone for many years. The article came from 1932, during the great depression and police were used to quell the rioters. The store owners were determined to stay secure, though there was a note that parcels would be made up and distributed from a welfare centre.
This morning on a TV programme called "Q and A" I heard our Prime Minister tell a blatant lie. He said the govt. had run large deficits in recent years (his 3 in office) in order to support the vulnerable within the community. This is so not true. The govt has run large deficits in order to support low taxes for the rich and super rich.
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The gap between rich and poor, and the rate at which it widens, is responsible for just about all of modern society's ills I think. 50 and 60 years ago, NZ was a well off country, town populations were supported by country and everyone was aware that our economic health was dependant on our ability to grow and export high quality food, which we did and still do better than most others. Townies were proud to have family relatives on a farm and joyed in visiting those places. There was genuine equality among all NZers and the "class" society was unimaginable. Many in the world saw New Zealanders as boring and our country as a boring place to visit, preferably to be avoided. Perhaps that was true, but we lived simply and decently and cared for each other as we don't, to a large extent, today.
But gradually there has grown a culture of envy, as mentioned in a post above and town sees relatively rich country as the enemy rather than as friend. Many children have never seen a cow or a sheep and believe all food originates in the supermarket, or, God help us, a foodbank.
Now, we have a prison population second, per capita, only to that of the USA. Murders, which were a once a year and deeply shocking occurrance, are literally now a daily event. There is little respect for the elderly or ill or disabled from many of the young population and it is not uncommon to read of 10 and 12 year-olds beating up and leaving for dead, a man of 80, for the sake of the few dollars in his pocket.
I can't presume to name causes for all of this change but without any doubt, prison is NOT the right answer to the majority of small and petty crimes in the community. I think that by now, the amount of money which is needed to put into rehab programmes to be effective in making real change, would be too big to contemplate and the whole problem seems just too hard to tackle.
In a speech to be given today our PM will outline steps to get young people off benefits and into work. Great. I hope they work but as just about everywhere else, the cart is put before the horse. You can't get a job if there is no job to be done. This applies whether you're 17 or 65. Some young people here have been given benefits because, ostensibly, their home situation is so bad they can't live with parents. This benefit has been available from the age of 16. Now it is to be supervised by a parent or other adult and while that sounds a good idea, I can see a situation where a lad told he can't have his money to go out drinking or hooning around in a car, could lead to further violence and alienation. How can it all end? I feel depressed by the whole issue.
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Going by Anthony's definition of the generations, I don't conform to type. I was born in 1943. :D
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Poor and disenfranchised? These riots have transcended race and class. Most thought they could do so with impunity.
What motivated the millionaire's daughter Laura Johnson to be part of it? Hardly poor!
What motivated the university graduate, Natasha Reid, to steal a £300 TV when she already owned one? Hardly uneducated!
What motivated the sportswomen and Olympic ambassdor, Chelsea Ives, who's met Lord Coe, the Mayor of London and been to the House of Commons? Hardly disenfranchised!
And as for the law student, Marouane Rouhi, didn't he know right from wrong?
My empathy is with fathers who've lost sons and that Malaysian student robbed whilst nursing a broken jaw.
Malcolm.
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Individually, each of these people have intelligence and reasoning. Put them together and you have a mindless entity.
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Who knows how things are connected? Here was I quietly weeding in the front garden when suddenly a cavalcade of motorcycles drove past - maybe a thousand or more! 'Supporting British Forces' - an honourable endeavour, but why all of a sudden? Actually they were all pretty good fun and there were some marvellous old bikes (and riders) amongst them. Even the traffic stuck on the M2 seemed quite happy. But it must be a sign of a level of insecurity that the riots have made more visible. Hopefully our society can collectively let of steam in such ways, as it always has.
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Those were the exceptions, Malcolm. The vast majority involved were quite obviously not drawn from the more privileged strata of society, although of course the exceptions will inevitably be held up as a way of "proving" that the whole thing had nothing to do with the ever-widening inequality gap.
I've never said that the widening inequality gap is the only factor involved, just that it is a factor that helps to ensure this won't be the last disturbance of this kind that we see and that preventing future problems like this must involve looking at and tackling the inequality gap that breeds envy and resentment. Surely that's in everyone's best interests in the long run. Having said that, I think most people accept that there are also other factors involved, to do with attitudes, how kids are raised and educated, consumerism, policing, etc etc.
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Unfortunately there are perceived ways in taxes hit the poor greater than the rich such as increasing VAT instead of raising the higher levels of income tax and closing the tax loopholes. I remember the pole tax being forced on Scotland. No wonder Mrs T is such a hated figure north of the border. I remember my brother off to university on his meagre grant. My dad was a college lecturer so my brother's student grant (remember them) was minimal. His then girlfriend's father was a millionaire farmer with an accountant that ensured she received a full grant.
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I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?
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I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?
Or Newcastle upon tyne and from working there and having family there,there are some very poor areas but from what i gather no riots there.
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Conversely, why Gloucester???
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I suppose it is naughty of me to suggest that Scots hooligans are adept enough at shoplifting not to need to exert themselves to riot and looting........? ::) :-X
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:o 8) :o
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Arthur, all I can suggest is that there was an element of chance involved in where the riots broke out.
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Rioting in Northern Ireland is almost, if not entirely, 'politically' motivated.
I dont think so but will ask some hoodie 'friends' :o Yes I know some people who might be classed undesirable. The cause havoc for any reason and are usually bored
Like London the areas our rioters come from are lower class, low wage earners/unemployed/dont want to work in back to back street houses. They are what used to be called spides which is short for spider men. They have the same dress sense as those in London - track suits but can somehow afford top of the range trainers, baseball caps, I wear one, tilted to 45o above eye level, run in gangs. Any excuse for a riot.
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Conversely, why Gloucester???
Complete and utter boredom I suspect ;D
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Arthur, been thinking about your questions about why riots in England but not Scotland or Wales, and only in certain cities and towns and not others.
It may be at least partly due to the way news and organisation of the riots spread amongst those who took part.
London was first, then there were 'copycat' riots elsewhere. So I imagine these kinds of things tend to spread out from the epicentre, with people closer feeling more linked to it than people farther away, even in other countries like Wales and Scotland, who feel it's less to do with them.
More importantly, it seems that people were messaging out to groups of friends to urge rioting and looting on social networks like facebook and Blackberry messaging, so the news and plans would spread through those messaging friendship groups. People in London would be most likely to have friends in other not too distant English towns and cities, and much less likely to have friends in their social networking groups in Scotland and Wales.
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Sorry, may not have made my point very clearly. What I mean is that initially groups of messaging friends would be mainly confined to London with just a few friends in any group being elsewhere. But as those friends elsewhere got news and encouragement to join in, they would message out to their own groups of friends, who would again be mainly local to their city or town, and if enough happen to get something started there then it kicks off. Probably just chance where enough concentrations of willing participants built up - but as you move away from the South East of England, the less likely it is that many people would be getting messages from friends in the South East.
Hope that makes sense.
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Martin
I am sure that social networks played a large part in spreading the violence and looting, but it still leaves unanswered why not Scotland and Wales, and why Gloucester - boredom is not an answer David.
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Martin
I am sure that social networks played a large part in spreading the violence and looting, but it still leaves unanswered why not Scotland and Wales, and why Gloucester - boredom is not an answer David.
Arthur, I once worked and lodged in Gloucester for a short while and believe me it could bore for England
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I don't tweet, and am not a member of Facebook - although so many unknown people want to be my friend.
And I can exist without a mobile phone. :)
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According to the police that's what was going on - young people using mainly the Blackberry messaging service which is impossible to trace and listen in to, to encourage and organise friends. There was a big piece about it on the latest BBC Click techno programme explaining it all and how that's what made it so difficult for the police to tell where the trouble was going to occur, because Blackberry messaging is very secure (encrypted in fact!)
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Sorry, Arthur. I mis-read your comment as "I am NOT sure that social networks played a large part". Sorry.
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Martin
Although Blackberry messages are secure at time of transmission, I note that the network will give the police info to track down the instigators of the problems.
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Yes, the Blackberry people are supposed to be talking to the police to help as much as they can within the law and the data protection act, but only after the fact. At the time of the trouble, there was no way the police or anyone else could listen in on the messaging that was going on. All kinds of civil liberties issues involved in this of course.
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I suppose it would be incorrect of me to wonder how such 'poor' folks can afford computers to be on facebook and Blackberry devices, which, the last time I saw an advert, were far from my price range?
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Two friends say rioting in Belfast, Londonderry ... is for something to do and the excitement.
I remember years ago a pre teen or just in to teens kid was hit by a rubber bullet. The parent said something like "wee Johnny wouldnt be out rioting"
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This whole issue seems to have been a very divisive one here in the UK and I've personally seen people in the local pubs getting very heated and nearly coming to blows over it, which seems like a real shame. I'd like to say that I'm glad we've been able to discuss it in this thread in a reasonably civilised way without going for one another's throats and without tempers being lost. Sorry if that sounds patronising to anyone, but it has been quite saddening to see friends falling out over this. Enough damage has been done without that.
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People in London would be most likely to have friends in other not too distant English towns and cities, and much less likely to have friends in their social networking groups in Scotland and Wales.
Because the Scots and the Welsh speak unspeakable languages and the English wouldn't know how to communicate with them. ;D ;D ;D (Do, please, note the laughing smileys here.)
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I suppose it would be incorrect of me to wonder how such 'poor' folks can afford computers to be on facebook and Blackberry devices, which, the last time I saw an advert, were far from my price range?
I wonder such things too Maggi. In social welfare reforms announced yesterday, all aimed at the young and/or unemployed, some comentators were amazed that families couldn't cope on their benefits when "they don't drink or smoke and they don't gamble." Maybe not but someone was having to pay of the 4WD Jeep at the gate and the 52" flat scrreen LED TV! not to mention the loan sharks they'd borrowed from to purchase these things in the first place.
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I know someone who doesnt work who has already been to Cancun this year and is going to Barbados in the autumn. How can that happen?
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I know someone who doesnt work who has already been to Cancun this year and is going to Barbados in the autumn. How can that happen?
Drug dealing?
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I know someone who doesnt work who has already been to Cancun this year and is going to Barbados in the autumn. How can that happen?
Selling snowdrops on ebay?
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Won a lottery?
Good swimmer?
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I know someone who doesnt work who has already been to Cancun this year and is going to Barbados in the autumn. How can that happen?
An MP?
johnw
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I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?
The weather... it was raining (heavily). [Besides, there's Celtic v. Rangers matches four times a year if you want a bit of a kick about.]
After the Scotland football fans got over their rampaging behaviour (remember the Tartan Army's Wembley pitch invasion),
Scots fans, abroad, took a perverse pleasure in being seen as party animals in orange wigs whilst English supporters took part in the pitch battles.
Malcolm.
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I believe that here in Australia MPs get a pension for the rest of their lives after they retire. I also thought, but I may be wrong, that they can go out and get another job after leaving their government jobs. Does that mean that they forfeit the pension or do they receive both? I am really bothered about how these pensions are going to increase with each MP that retires and that means that yearly we end up with more on the pension and more taxes being needed to pay for them.
IF the MPs decided to lessen their pay or pensions by at least 10% as a show of good faith it might go a long way to lessening the feeling of inequality. Plus fly economy class and stay at less than the top hotels etc.
While this concerns Australia it might be relevant in the UK too.
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It is relevant in the UK, Pat.... we have had a couple of Scottish politicians who were forced to resign as ministers because of scandals and they get to keep their pension even though they were disgraced.
One of then had only been in post for a matter of weeks and he's got a pension of £36K a year (from memory)... he continues in politics and is free to take directorships....... :o
It beggars belief.
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I know someone who doesnt work who has already been to Cancun this year and is going to Barbados in the autumn. How can that happen?
An MP?
johnw
A footballer's wife?
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I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?
The weather... it was raining (heavily).
Malcolm.
Malcolm may well have hit the nail on the head if it was raining heavily (as it always seems to be this "Summer") in Wales and Scotland at the time of the rioting and looting. According to a story in my paper this morning comparing this event with the French youth riots in 05, what finally brought the French rioting to a stop were heavy rain and the start of the new school and college terms. Interestingly, the social scientist quoted in the story said the reason there was little looting during the French riots was because the low-income people involved tend in France to live in high-rise estates on the very outskirts of the cities where there are few shops. What was rife was people setting fire to cars in local streets, mainly newer and more expensive cars in what looked very much like arson motivated largely by envy and resentment.
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My son (aged 14) came up with some interesting "facts" this morning: Bill Gates could pay off the American debt in 10 years; if he dropped a $100 note, by the time it hits the ground 1 second later had has earned nearly two and a half times that amount! :o
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Sounds like a little Bill Gates in the making Anthony. You'll have a great retirement.
Pat and Maggi, the same system reigns here too. MsP who retire, in whatever (sometimes sleazy) circumstances are pensioned off to a high amount. Not only that, there is indignation that the wife of a long dead MP also gets this pension and like all MsP after retirement gets 90% of first class international as well as national air travel, accomodation etc, paid by the taxpayer. The system stinks badly.
I hate MsP on principle but having said that, they are reasonably paid here, compared with the corporate sector. Most get between $150K and $200K per annum whereas the CEO of Telecom (remembering what I pay for phone and mobile) gets something around $8million. Others get similar pay packages while someone on an unemployment benefit gets maybe $7K per annum, more if children are involved. A loaf of bread costs the same no matter who buys it.
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I'm pleased that football rioting is just that and doesn't, as far as I know, extend to rugby fans. Although there will be tight security for the soon to be played here Rugby World Cup, I don't believe any stadium or venue will have wire fencing around the playing field. Some may call the game "Thugby" but by and large those who follow and enjoy it are more civilized than those who follow the so-called "Beautiful Game."
I see the Australian coach wants the NZ haka banned because it is intimidating. I'll adapt a culinary saying and answer that with "if you can't stand the haka, get off the playing field."
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My son (aged 14) came up with some interesting "facts" this morning: Bill Gates could pay off the American debt in 10 years; if he dropped a $100 note, by the time it hits the ground 1 second later had has earned nearly two and a half times that amount! :o
Anthony - On the news last week something to the effect that Apple had $6 Billion more than the USA Federal Government. I assume before the ceiling was lifted later that week. ;)
johnw
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I'm pleased that football rioting is just that and doesn't, as far as I know, extend to rugby fans. Although there will be tight security for the soon to be played here Rugby World Cup, I don't believe any stadium or venue will have wire fencing around the playing field. Some may call the game "Thugby" but by and large those who follow and enjoy it are more civilized than those who follow the so-called "Beautiful Game."
I see the Australian coach wants the NZ haka banned because it is intimidating. I'll adapt a culinary saying and answer that with "if you can't stand the haka, get off the playing field."
It is interesting to note that in cricket and rugby fans are fully integrated and can buy and drink alcohol. In football, fans are segregated and alcohol is banned because opposing fans would rip each others' heads off! ??? In 1975 I went to see Scotland vs Wales at Murrayfield in the last non-ticket match. 120,000 fans and no trouble whatsoever!