Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Amaryllidaceae => Topic started by: jshields on July 11, 2011, 03:22:52 PM
-
We have several types of Hymenocallis here. At the moment, H. eucharidifolia is getting ready to bloom. Several species have already bloomed, including the Mexican types guerreroensis and durangoensis. I sent a few seeds of guerreroensis to the Pacific Bulb Society BX, and there are a few seeds of durangoensis which are too few to distribute.
There are two species that are hardy here -- H. occidentalis (a.k.a. caroliniana) which blooms in August or September in my area, and liriosme. H. liriosme is not really hardy here. One accession has survived outdoors, and only in one spot, at the south end of one greenhouse. Here is a picture of liriosme in bloom at that spot in early June this year:
-
Very nice Jim. A beautiful species. Very surprising it isn't more popular in the hobby.
Rob
-
Hymenocallis liriosme is still said to be common in nature, mainly in Louisiana and Texas. It occurs in and along rivers, streams, and swamps. Its close relative, H. occidentalis, occurs in drier uplands in and at the edges of woods. H. occidentalis is rapidly disappearing in the wild. I wish both were easier to grow here in Indiana.
Jim
-
Hymenocallis glauca is one of my favorite Mexican species. The leaves are wide and a dusty blue-green color (glaucous in name and in fact). I'm told the bulbs can get almost as big a crinum bulbs, but mine have not. Maybe because they are kept in only 2-gallon (22 cm x 22 cm) pots. They are kept completely dry in winter, under the benches in one of the greenhouses. I sent a few seeds to the PBS BX this week. The photo was taken in mid-June.
Jim
-
Jim,
Gorgeous plants! I haven't too many Hymenocallis sp., they're quite beautiful. I have a hard time distinguishing between species.
There is a sp. growing in a family members back yard in S. Indiana, they have a lot of wooded property and it's tucked in the woods, it's beautiful! I told them they must not disturb it considering these plants are lacking in this area.
Josh
-
Very likely the ones in Southern Indiana are Hymenocallis occidentalis, a close relative of H. liriosme but native to drier uplands and wooded areas. H. occidentalis has always been very rare in Indiana and is becoming rare throughout it native range of Texas and Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky, and southern-most Missouri, Illinois, and Indiana.
If seeds don't set naturally, you can hand-pollinate them. The bulbs I have came from Tennessee and Arkansas by way of Southern Indiana. I usually try to hand pollinate them when mine bloom.
Jim
-
Jim, do you know when they usually bloom around here? I can have someone hand pollinate them and hopefully get seed to share via PBS or whatnot!
-
Hymenocallis occidentalis normally blooms in Indiana in late July to early September, depending on weather and various imponderables. I think it is best to cross-pollinate, i.e., transfer pollen from a flower on one plant to a flower on a separate plant. You may have to instruct in floral anatomy as well!
Jim
-
Jim, your images of Hymenocallises are very useful. Specially those of the foliage. From your previous one, I have just confirmed my H. glaucas ID.
Please upload more photos of yours.
-
Hymenocallis occidentalis normally blooms in Indiana in late July to early September, depending on weather and various imponderables. I think it is best to cross-pollinate, i.e., transfer pollen from a flower on one plant to a flower on a separate plant. You may have to instruct in floral anatomy as well!
Jim
Jim,
I'm sure I will need to instruct them, they're just a tad clueless. I'll have them keep an eye out, thanks ;)
-
Hymenocallis eucharidifolia is in bloom.
Jim
-
Jim,
Very nice! Mine wont seem to wake up this year, the bulb is firm and such, any ideas?
-
Josh, they probably need to be warm -- outdoors rather than in the air conditioning. They probably need to be kept warm in winter too. I've been losing eucharidifolia in the cool greenhouse in winter.
Jim
-
Jim,
It's been outside since late may or so, hopefully it starts soon!
-
I'm drying some pollen from eucharidifolia. I didn't get much, and there is not much on thee anthers. It might give enough for a couple pollinations. The only Hymenocallis left still to bloom with be occidentalis, if any of mine bloom this year.
-
Jim, the leaf doesn't look too "eucharidfolia". Which petiolated leaved species are ithere in Mexico, do you remember?
-
I can only recall three species with petiolate leaves and of medium to small stature: woelfleana, which everyone I know who tried to grow has killed every time (including me); glauca, with pronouncedly glaucous foliage, and fairly easy to grow; and what we are today calling eucharidifolia, which is a forest understory plant from rainforests of southern Mexico.
30-35 years ago (more or less) there was a fourth species circulating that had very broad leaves on a decidedly dwarf plant. I don't think Thad had found it in southern Mexico, but I'm not positive on that point. It was later decided by Thad Howard or Jim Bauml that that dwarf was not eucharidifolia, and then it disappeared from cultivation. That is to say, neither Thad nor I had it any longer, and I don't think Jim Bauml had it. I don't know if anyone else ever did have it. If you feel like a trip to Mexico, I'm sure there are still some interesting Hymenocallis species waiting to be found in some of those back country valleys, Alberto.
I never went into Mexico myself; I was already too old for such adventures when I first got acquainted with Thad Howard. I still admire those brave souls who did venture out into the hinterlands with Thad on plant hunting expeditions.
I was probably born too old to go on the kinds of trips Thad took.
Jim
-
Awhile back I was wondering how long it took for seeds of Hymenocallis liriosme to germinate. On July 9th I planted some fresh seeds from my outdoor clumps of H. liriosme in a large pot. I see today there are a few green leaf shoots already showing above the surface of the potting mix. I was uncertain because liriosme's close cousin occidentalis, which blooms about now in most years, does not germinate its seeds until late winter. So it takes liriosme seeds about 3 weeks or less to germinate, while it takes occidentalis seeds 3 or 4 months or longer to germinate. Just in case anyone was curious.
Jim
-
Hymenocallis 'Tropical Giant' is blooming. It had a rough winter in the greenhouse; I must have stored it in a different spot this time. Anyway, it is finally showing a flower!
Jim
-
Nice showy Crinum like foliage.
-
Tropical Giant has foliage reminiscent of Hymenocallis latifolia, but the flower is somewhat different. The foliage tends to be more erect than that of most of the Crinum types I grow here. The leaves actually remind me more of H. imperialis foliage.
This Tropical Giant is supposed to occasionally produce a seed or two, and they are fertile, according to Al Sisk from whom I got these. I don't think anyone really knows what Tropical Giant actually is. Not all that I've seen seemed to look exactly alike.
Jim
-
Another Hymenocalllis is blooming here in Indiana: Hymenocallis occidentalis (a.k.a. caroliniana) is the only species of Hymenocallis native to the State of Indiana, and then only in the farthest southwestern corner of the state, along the Ohio and Wabash rivers. The plant shown actually came from Arkansas to Indiana about 100 years ago. The buds are opening one at a time, so we caught it today half-way through its bloom showing.
This species looks very much like Hymenocallis liriosme (a.k.a., galvestonensis), and their ranges overlap in Texas and nearby states. Their flowers look virtually identical to me; you have to tell them apart by their bloom season and by their foliage: occidentalis has glaucous grey-green foliage while liriosme has bright, glossy, rich green leaves. Liriosme blooms in spring or early summer, while occidentalis blooms later, e.g., right now in Indiana.
Jim
-
Very Nice Jim!!!!
OH, btw my H. eucharidifolia has finally leafed out, such a beautiful plant, thanks for the advice!
-
Josh,
Your eucharidifolia should stay green for quite awhile now that it has leafed out.
Jim
-
I might mention that my hardy clump of Hymenocallis liriosme (#1261), which bloomed in June, has sent up one lone rebloom scape! I am taking the opportunity to directly pollinate the liriosme with fresh occidentalis pollen.
I'm also stashing away some liriosme and some occidentalis pollen for next season. First the stamens are collected, and the filaments are removed from the anthers. Then the anthers go into plastic microcentrifuge tubes (1.5 mL capacity, with attached caps) and are dried in a closed container with drying agent (I use Dierite(R), but Blue Crystals of silica gel would also work). When dried, probably tomorrow, the caps will be closed on the tubes and they will be stored in the freezer until needed. The pollen should remain viable for up to one year in the freezer, based on past experience.
Jim
-
Here's a proper look at Hymenocallis occidentalis in bloom. This clump just opened up yesterday and last night. Because of our dry summer, all the leaves are already gone from this bunch. Others that received supplemental watering during the dry spell still have their leaves, green and healthy.
Jim
-
it looks to be a lovely thing Jim, any idea why they have not got into general cultivation?
-
I'm not sure, Peter. From my own experience, I'd say that they are difficult to transplant until the bulbs reach full blooming size. When I start seeds in large pots and carry the seedlings in the same pots for at least 2 years, I still lose at least 50% on first transplanting. I do not understand why this one is so touchy.
Jim
-
Jim, how long would you expect my eucharidifolia to continue to grow?
Sadly I think the plant had to become accustomed to its new pot before it would leaf out, it seems to resent being moved!
Josh
-
Josh,
Your plant may continue growing well into winter. Give it plenty of light as long as the leaves are green and healthy, but you don't have to keep watering it that long.
Jim
-
Thanks Jim,
there seem to be a lot of lovely plants whch should be hardy and garden worthy if one could work out how to start them
-
Peter, Hymenocallises are very slow to reach maturity from seed. And, while some offset resonably well, a lot more remain as single bulbs year after year. They must be grown in large pots. In cold climates, most species must be grown in a frost free greenhouse, and so on.
-
one of my fathers prize posesions was a bristle cone pine planted in the rock of a small cliff in our garden. My grandmother was nearly 80 when she saw the first flower on a camelia she had bought 32 years earlier, knowing it would not flower for years.
so i shall wait for the slower bulbs and enjoy the faster ones.
-
one of my fathers prize posesions was a bristle cone pine planted in the rock of a small cliff in our garden. My grandmother was nearly 80 when she saw the first flower on a camelia she had bought 32 years earlier, knowing it would not flower for years.
so i shall wait for the slower bulbs and enjoy the faster ones.
Makes me feel better about the thirty odd years I waited for my Rhododendron auriculatum to flower.... it has finally done so this month!!
-
congratulations Maggie, I take it R giganteum, falconneri, rex, and sinograndes etc flowerd a bit younger for you? :P
funny thing was when members of the rock garden club visited and I was only 5, I took these things for granted!
-
We have two thirds of an acre, total ground, includingthe house, Peter, so I don't grow much in the way of the "big-leaves" ... anyway, they are not so happy here on the east coast so even if I had the space I'd be pushing it to grow those well.
-
:-\ we had 3 acres and could have used 30 Maggie. Pruning and bonfires included Cunninghamias, Telopeas, Redwoods, Fitzroyia, oaks, Stewartia and so on, just to keep the thousands of plants from overwhelming each other!
-
Do you see, Arda, the incomparable sense of accomplishment when such things finally flower?
-
Here's a bit of a mystery: It came to me 10 years ago labeled Hymenocallis from Nayarit. I assumed it was H. nayaritiana, now properly known as H. jaliscensis, I'm told. It is just now blooming for the first time -- which does not say much for my husbandry. I don't have any plants of jaliscensis of known provenance, but comparing it to plants I do have, it seems to be between H. glauca and H. phalangides. I'd like to see an authentic specimen of jaliscensis as well, but for now I think it is closer to phalangides.
Jim
-
Jim
Very nice
but for me difficult to identify several the species, being like giving a name to the ants :-\
-
I do agree with Alessandro, they're so difficult... I know it sounds horrible but to me most of them look the same :-X :-X :-X
-
They are tricky, and the species of the Mexican Alliance, like my species "cf. nayaritiana," are all fairly closely related to each other. Jim Bauml made a graduate thesis out of identifying the members of the Mexican group, in fact. It's too bad that his thesis never seems to have gotten published anywhere, and I have again lost track of where Jim is.
It's easy enough to say, "This is in the glauca group" for instance, but it still does not tell you which valley it came out of. Each species is found in a discrete geographic area, sometimes in a single valley in the mountains. This is part of what makes them so interesting.
The species of the Southeastern USA are another group that are fairly closely related, and may be hard to tell apart unless you are growing enough of the various species to be able to make eyeball comparisons. I have better luck growing most of the Mexican species than I do with the Southeastern species, especially those from Florida. When folks send me plants to identify, if they are from Florida I'll probably not be able to keep them alive long enough to ID them. So Hymenocallis can be rather frustrating.
The late Thad Howard's book, "Bulbs for Warm Climates" is a good place to start, but he messed up the Hymenocallis occidentalis/liriosme group. Better is "Flora of North America," volume 26, the chapter on Hymenocallis by Gerry Smith. The best thing would be to have Gerry Smith and Jim Bauml sitting at your elbow while you try to sort things out.
-
Jim, I have a copy of Jim Bauml's monograph along with several of Thad's catalogues but can not find them. This I mention to encourage readers to keep literature in good order and tidy.
-
Over the years I've asked Jim more than once for a copy of his thesis. Treasure the copy you have; I still haven't gotten a copy myself.
Jim
-
I have just been given some "green" hymenocallis bulbils(???).
Would someone please tell me what I do with them now?
Thanks Folks
-
I have just been given some "green" hymenocallis bulbils(???).
Would someone please tell me what I do with them now?
Thanks Folks
Hi folks,
They are probably actually seeds. I've never seen a true Hymenocallis bulbil. Plant them on the surface of the potting mix and keep them in the light (they're green) and watered. Next I might ask, what species did they come from? Local in Kentucky? In that case they are occidentalis and won't sprout until late winter or spring.
Let us know what happens.
Jim
-
lucky you, if no one better informed answers, my suggestion would be to get them rooted before winter and keep them frost free
-
Thanks Jim and Peter. As you probably guessed, I am far from a knowledgeable bulb person and thank goodness for this wonderful forum and its forumists. I shall follow your instructions and hope for the best.
I'm not sure of the species, a local lady just called round this morning and said here are some spider lily bulbs for you, so I am assuming they are Hymenocallis. To be honest, one bulb looks pretty much like another to me. Maybe it's time I started to rest from alpines, cactus and native wildflowers to study the bulbous plants.
Thanks again for all your advice,
Cheers
Alan
-
I have just been informed that this plant is growing in the woods owned by the lady who gave me the seeds, so in that case I guess it is H.occidentalis. According to USDA, occidentalis is a synonym in KY for H.caroliniana.
-
I have just been informed that this plant is growing in the woods owned by the lady who gave me the seeds, so in that case I guess it is H.occidentalis. According to USDA, occidentalis is a synonym in KY for H.caroliniana.
Right, and according to Gerry Smith in Flora of North America, caroliniana is invalid and the name reverts to occidentalis. Since it is occidentalis, plant the seeds in your garden and let Nature take its course.
By the way, I would kill for some of those seeds! I never got authentic Kentucky specimens of occidentalis. I would love to send the lady some bulbs for a few of those seeds.
Jim
I have or had occidentalis from Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Louisiana. I'm still looking for seeds from Illinois and Kentucky.
-
This is not my photograph but it IS the particular plant in question.
Don't kill anyone yet Jim. I'll see what I can do for you.
Alan