Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Plant Identification => Plant Identification Questions and Answers => Topic started by: mark smyth on June 02, 2011, 09:44:30 AM
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Does anyone know this Allium? The colour is darker than the camera shows. The flower stems are flat.
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one more
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one more
Hi Mark it looks like the one I showed last year that McMark identified as A. sikkimense.
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THanks Graham
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Mark, the blue on is A. sikkimense, I agree with Graham. Just look at all those buds, nicely grown :D
I'm totally intrigued by your first purply one, as I believe we are seeing a hybrid of Allium cyathophorum var. farreri. I've grown this species so many times, mostly resulting from misidentified Allium species. While the species is variable, your plant looks distinctive on account of the tightly rolled pendant flat stems. Typically Allium cyathophorum and its variety farreri have the following characteristic as outlined in Flora of China: "scape lateral, 13--15 cm, terete, usually 2-angled".
Your plant looks particularly stout, with those unusual broad and flat nodding arched stems, and wider than normal leaves too. What is the source of your plant? To me it looks like a dead-ringer for A. cyathophorum var. farreri crossed with A. cernuum perhaps. In the third picture with its stem and bud disposition, I'm instantly reminded of budded A. cernuum forms in my garden at this very moment!
Mark, will you please save me some seed, I would very much like to try growing this form, I have a particular interest in Allium hybrids involving A. cernuum, where it seems this American species (A. cernuum), along with it's partner in horticultural promiscuity Allium stellatum, jump at the chance to mate with European and Asian allium species.
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Thanks Mark. The flower stems have now elongated to about half the height of the leaves. The stem is still flat but the main vein is now more obvious
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Thanks Mark. The flower stems have now elongated to about half the height of the leaves. The stem is still flat but the main vein is now more obvious
Mark, can you partly dissect a flower and show us what the central ovary looks like. If indeed this is a hybrid with A. cernuum, it will probably inherit the "crests" that will be at the apex of the ovary.
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The source was an open garden last year. The label Allium aflatuense. The home owner didnt know where she got it
I have seeds in an envelope somewhere. Would you want those or fresh?
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The source was an open garden last year. The label Allium aflatuense <---bwahaha!
The home owner didnt know where she got it
I have seeds in an envelope somewhere. Would you want those or fresh?
Hmmm, if you could earmark some fresh seed from your flowering plant, that would be great :)
Thanks Mark!
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I pulled a flower apart. Inside the petals there are little spikes - maybe 3. Is that what you expected?
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A picture would probably help, Mark, something like this:
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I pulled a flower apart. Inside the petals there are little spikes - maybe 3. Is that what you expected?
Mark, here is a photo of seed capsules on Allium stellatum, both A. stellatum and A. cernuum (and its hybrids) will have these crests or protuberances on the ends of the ovary/capsule. So, I'm not sure what you are referring to when saying "inside the petals there are little spikes", whether referring to toothed stamens (common in Allium) or ovary crests. Do you see anything like in my photo?
Arisaema. what species is shown in your cut-away close-up? I see that it has an appendage or crest on the end of the ovary.
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Arisaema. what species is shown in your cut-away close-up? I see that it has an appendage or crest on the end of the ovary.
Sorry, it's a tiny Polygonatum species from DaxueShan, not an Allium, but I figured that's the kind of picture you needed ;)
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I took some photos and see it's anthers I can see. I'll post a photo soon.
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Are the crests in your lower photo the remains of the anthers/
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Arisaema. what species is shown in your cut-away close-up? I see that it has an appendage or crest on the end of the ovary.
Sorry, it's a tiny Polygonatum species from DaxueShan, not an Allium, but I figured that's the kind of picture you needed ;)
Phew, if it had been an Allium it would have rocked my collective understanding of the genus, because no allium has stamens emerging and adnate to the petals so far down along the length of the petals as seen in your cutaway. Nice little Polygonatum species; aside from the declining aspect of the leaves, it looks something like P. roseum: http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=593.msg9079#msg9079
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Are the crests in your lower photo the remains of the anthers/
Thanks for posting those closeups Mark. Still too hard to tell. No, the crests on Allium cernuum and stellatum are merely tooth-like bumps at the tip of the ovary, typically one such bump or tooth per "locule" (individual chamber of section of the developing ovary/capsule). The bumps or crests become more pronounced and elongated when the capsule fully develops and the floral parts wither away.
On your photo, if you inspect and dissect very closely, my guess is, the anthers that appear to be coming from the ovary are in fact the remains of the inner stamens "invested" or adpressing themselves against the ovary, but if the parts are pulled apart under a magnifying lens, you could see that the stamen and anther are in fact "free" and not attached to the ovary.
I found a closeup photo of A. cyathophorum at late anthesis, in the upper left showing a round ovary/developing capsule (no teeth or crests):
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=87640&flora_id=800
...more photo links here:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027468
Drawing of Allium cyathophorum and A. macranthum, floral detail #7 shows the toothed broadened inner filaments on the stamens of Allium cyathophorum:
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=60225&flora_id=2
Mark, when the flowers have fully faded and leaving behind the developing or mature seed capsules while still "in the green" and not fully dried, show us again what the capsule looks like, to see if there are any crests present.
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Found an image of Allium cernuum that is just at the stage where the ovaries and developing seed capsules are still "in the green" and not fully dried yet, and you can clearly see the pointy crests at the apex of the ovary or developing capsule. At this stage, one can also see the drying remains of the petals "investing" or tightly enclosing the developing capsule, as well as the remains of the style atop the capsules.
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From the seed exchange 2010 I got seeds of this allium under the name Allium callimischon. Now it is flowering and it is certainly not callimischon. Can anyone identify?
Poul
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Poul I think your answer is here already. Your plant looks like mine
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Poul, Mark is correct, the answer is already here... the plant looks like our old friend, Allium cyathophorum var. farreri. If one were to grow 100 different Allium species from the seed exchanges, or even seed from botanic gardens, perhaps 25% would end up being this species.
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Thank you Mark & Mark,
I had to admit that I didn't read the full thread before posting :-[
Poul