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Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: olegKon on May 11, 2011, 10:48:40 AM

Title: Aroids 2011
Post by: olegKon on May 11, 2011, 10:48:40 AM
I did't know where to place this. The first flowering of Amorphophallus henrii (if the name is right) for me. It is not fully developed yet, but I was afraid of missing the moment.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: manicbotanic on May 11, 2011, 05:41:34 PM
amazing if not a tad sinister...
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 11, 2011, 08:04:17 PM
Oleg,

It is very hard to miss the smell when it is in full bloom.... ;) But it is indeed Amorphopahllus henryi, it can have a purple or a light brownish appendix and is actually reasonably hardy. Most Amorphophallus have at least 2-3 days of being in full bloom so you have plenty of time to photograph it when the spathe fully unfolds.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: olegKon on May 12, 2011, 07:33:36 AM
Thank you. guys. Hope to show it in full bloom. Unfortunately for Moscow no Amorphophallus can be hardy.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: olegKon on May 16, 2011, 11:44:43 AM
It's already fading but still impressive. I read somewhere that it needs a rest after flowering. Should I keep it dry or moist now. I would be obliged for any cultivation tips
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Ezeiza on May 16, 2011, 03:52:18 PM
Actually, after flowering is when the growth season begins.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 17, 2011, 07:50:19 AM
Oleg, Amorphophallus henryi might skip an entire year but generally sends up a leaf after a couple of weeks, just keep it the soil moist but not wet. It is not one of the species that needs a resting period like some of the more tropical species, it only occasionally does.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: WimB on May 18, 2011, 08:58:39 AM
In flower since last week in my garden:

Amorphophallus konjac and
Arum dioscoridis subsp. dioscoridis
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: olegKon on May 18, 2011, 03:36:11 PM
Thanks for advice. It's highly appreciated.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: ThomasB on June 06, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
A real dwarf amongst other giants within the genus Amorphophallus is A. ongsakulii. A 2 euro cent coin for comparison.  ;)
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 06, 2011, 07:39:48 PM
Thomas, I've tweaked the photo a little... loses the coin but shows the plant....
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Ezeiza on June 06, 2011, 08:45:44 PM
Thomas, one would pull it out as a weed!!!
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 06, 2011, 09:04:47 PM
Thomas, one would pull it out as a weed!!!

Funny you mention it because it produces lots of grain sized small pups....and becomes a weed......, a very welcome weed! Unfortunately the offsets have the same color as the soil so are a nightmare to find if your repot them being only 2-3 mm.... I have seen it grow in the greenhouse of the person that discovered it (Alan Galloway) and he had a tapestry of them, a great sight to see. Before it was described as ongsakulii is was grown under the nickname of Amorphopallus "fernii"  because it resembles a small fern out of flower.

Thomas, if the tuber was ~ 1cm it can already flower, it flowers with the leaves:
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 06, 2011, 09:08:19 PM
What a cute little chap..... I think he's lovely.

Quote
if the tuber was ~ 1cm it can already flower, it flowers with the leaves:

Amazing if such a tiny tuber can flower  :o
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Ezeiza on June 07, 2011, 12:01:34 AM
Thanks, Pascal, for the explanation. Sounds like a great plant.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Carlo on June 07, 2011, 12:18:13 AM
Wow! Fantastic! Weed? No. If anyone has one (or apparently a benchful) in Canada, let me know!!!
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: ThomasB on June 07, 2011, 09:21:36 AM
Thomas, I've tweaked the photo a little... loses the coin but shows the plant....

Thank you Maggi!  :D
I was a bit in a hurry yesterday evening and the light was rather poor.


The tiny tubers I got were under 1 cm, the largest about 0.5 cm. Hope I'll get them to flower, at least the smell can't be too bad with this size.  :P
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 07, 2011, 01:06:36 PM
Another cute little aroid, the very rare little brother of Sauromatum venosum: Sauromatum brevipes from the Himalayas. Always a joy to see the inside of these little critters with the frilly anther like structures but the smell is......ehrm......like a public lavatory... Plant is in a 9 x 9 pot
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 08, 2011, 11:03:56 AM
The bigger brother, Sauromatum venosum. This is a form from S India, especially in leaf it is quite different with a more compact habit, broader leaflets and velvety texture compared to the N Indian/Nepalese forms in cultivation
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 18, 2011, 11:45:35 AM
And the third Sauromatum, S. diversifolium. Still some discussion going on about its taxonomic status, this is a high altitude form from Nepal. Pretty and smelly.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Paul T on June 18, 2011, 12:05:09 PM
Pascal,

Great pics.  Interesting to see the other Sauromatums, or are these Typhoniums again now (or back out to Sauromatum again?).  I can't keep track of it.  ::)

The Amorph. ongsakulii is amazing.  And so tiny.  Do you know whether it is in Australia yet (or ever likely to be)?  Being a collector of assorted things, and particularly loving the miniatures, this one appeals to me greatly.  I grow a few different Amorphs, but I didn't realise there were any so small. 

Thanks for showing us your treasures. 8)
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 18, 2011, 12:40:08 PM
Paul,

There have been 2 recent phylogenetic treatments of Typhonium/Sauromatum:

- Cusimano N., Barrett M., Hetterscheid W.L.A. and Renner S.S. (2010): A phylogeny of the Areae (Araceae) implies that Typhonium, Sauromatum and the Australian species of Typhonium are distinct clades. Taxon 59: 439 – 447.

- Ohi-Toma, T., S. Wu, S.R. Yadav, H. Murata & J. Murata: Molecular Phylogeny of Typhonium sensu lato and Its Allied Genera in the Tribe Areae of the Subfamily Aroideae (Araceae) Based on Sequences of Six Chloroplast Regions. Systematic Botany (2010), 35(2): pp. 244-251.

The first phylogenetic treatment concluded that Sauromatum should be resurrected and should include some species previously in Typhonium: S. brevipes, S. brevipilosum, S. diversifolium, S. gaoligongense, S. giganteum, S. hirsutum, S. horsfieldii, S. tentaculatum, S. venosum. It also concluded the Australian Typhonium are not related enough to Sauromatum or Typhonium to be included in either and will most likely all be included in the genus Lazarum.

The second article hit several unresolved "knots" in the pylogeny and split Typhonium into 5 genera: Typhonium, Sauromatum, Pedatyphonium, Hirsutiarum & Diversiarum.

Based on the lower sample density of the second publication (that did not include the Australian "Typhonium"), the unresolved phylogeny and the resulting solution it is highly unlikely the second research will find any scientific recognition. The first research has a very high sample density of most known species (DNA of the above S. brevipes I collected in Nepal was used for that research), has a completely resolved tree and a good correlation between the phylogeny and morphology. The Cusimano treatment is also followed in the new Flora of China and will be the new (and most likely definitive) classification of Typhonium and Sauromatum. At the moment I have S. horsefieldii planted out in the garden and it is completely hardy, I will probably make some pictures this week when the flower opens (although it is plain green, the pedate leaves are its main attraction).

The reason I say there is still some debate going on for T. diversifolium is because this plant is stoloniferous (in contrast to the diversifolium already in cultivation, mainly from China) and I have great difficulty with the concept of a species having 2 completely different types of leaves at the same location (which gave rise to its name), I still have the feeling the holotype sheets of S. diversifolium contain 2 separate taxa. Wilbert Hetterscheid and I are still sorting it out and DNA of the above plant will be send to Natalie Cusimano to be sampled.

As for the small Amorphophallus, I am not sure ongsakulii is in Australia. It is only in cultivation for perhaps 7 years and is slowly spreading in cultivation and was offered for the first time on E-bay this year. Most of the mini-Amorphophallus come from Laos, Cambodja and Vietnam and seem to belong to 2 sections. Another one will be published shortly but it is mainly thanks to the fieldwork of Alan Galloway that we got to know all these little ones.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Paul T on June 18, 2011, 01:05:26 PM
Pascal,

Thanks for that extensive response.  Brilliant!!  8)  I recall now reading something about that on Aroid-L, as I remember having seen something about the Aussie ones being shifted off into their own genus.

Interesting to know that there are more small species of Amorph.  As I said, I didn't even realise there was one mini species.  ;D  If they're only 7 years discovered it will probably be a while before they make it to Australia, unless someone gets them evaluated to be added to the quarantine index.  Only then can they come into the country! <sigh>  Our quarantine can be frustrating, but it is well worth it as there are many pests and diseases we don't have here because of it.

Thanks again for the info.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Boyed on June 30, 2011, 11:14:13 PM
We collected this arum species last year during our trip to Nagorni Karabakh. At that time it was almost finishing vegetation. Few days ago when I visited the country house it was in full bloom and I was highly impressed by its beauty and vigour. It turned out a highly decorative species, reaching in height to 150 cm, not speaking about its elegant dark beautifully shaped blooms. Unfortunately, I'm not yet sure about species name.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Ezeiza on July 01, 2011, 12:21:46 AM
Zihair, it is fantastic. Is it in flower right now? If so, can you take several close ups of the open spathe base to see the actual flowers? That would help our aroid expert Pascal get closer in a diagnosis.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Paul T on July 01, 2011, 01:17:31 AM
Zhirair,

That is impressive!!  I've never heard of an Arum species to 1.5m tall before.  It really is amazing.

Thanks for showing us.  Good luck with getting an ID. 8)
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 01, 2011, 09:19:32 AM
Looks like a form of Arum detrunctatum Zhirair. You can send a personal message to fellow forum member (and author of the Arum revision) Peter B to confirm.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Paul T on July 01, 2011, 10:37:05 AM
Pascal,

I've never even heard of that species before.  Cool! 8)
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Boyed on July 01, 2011, 12:33:55 PM
Unfortunately, it is not in flower now.
2 weeks ago I photographed it when it was about to bloom. later when I came back to the country house a week later, the flowers were already not in a good and fresh condition. So I even couldn't take a photo of it in a fresh bloomong condition.

In Janis boook "Buried Treasures", plate 278 I see something similar to this arum species - Arum conophalloides var. caudatum.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 01, 2011, 02:07:06 PM
Paul, fellow forum member Kees Jan Zwienen has photographed detruncatum in the wild: http://keesjan.smugmug.com/Floraselectionbyfamilyfromgeog/Monocots/Araceae/15627005_2t4up#874507389_FbZGo

I on the other hand am not really familiar with conophalloides to be honest, one of the isotypes was identified by Peter Boyce as Arum rupicola and I think he still synonymises it with that species. Rupicola as I am familiar with looks different to the pix of Zhirair. But I do not know enough about Arum to be a reliable source of info, I will notify Peter about this posting, I am sure he can be more definitive than me.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Tony Willis on July 04, 2011, 02:46:27 AM
I am away at the moment and do not have access to my photographs but I posted a picture of Arum conophalloides var virescens on NARGS on 27 April item 102.It was over a metre tall as rupicola often is. There is also a picture of rupicola there.

http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=204.90
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Peter B on July 06, 2011, 09:10:44 AM
Edit by maggi: Peter's post refers to the query in  http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7262.msg206614#msg206614



This is Arum rupicola Boiss. sensu lat.  

My treatment of this for the book was based on my fieldwork in Turkey, Cyprus, and Lesbos, but otherwise solely on herbarium material, albeit a great DEAL of material. Throughout this range the plant in the field is the conophalloides morph. I searched for the slender spadix morph (rupicola) in Syria but without success, since in those days (mid 80s) access to the mountainous parts of Syria along the Lebanese and Syrian borders was very difficult.

Ultimately I made my decision to merge all into one taxon, under the earliest name, rupicola and comprising a complex containing the well-known names conophalloides and detruncatum, and a few obscure names such as quellekense and giganteum. In its sensu lat.  manifestation rupicola occurs from Lesbos to NW Iran, N into Armenia, and south as far as the Lebanese Bekaa Valley, and on Cyprus.

What needs to happen is for someone to tackle the species throughout its entire range and take into question the morphologically very similar A. korolkowii and A. jacquemontii that comprise the Rupicola Complex. Based on what I now much better understand than I did 25 years ago the taxa rupicola complex may well be each far too broadly defined
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 12, 2011, 12:29:34 PM
Side by side comparison of 2 forms of Pinellia cordata, the one on the right is the usual form with the unicolor flowers and beetroot red undersides of the leaves, the one on the left is a recently introduced form with green leaves and a reddish spathe. Apart from the colors they are morphologically identical.
Title: Re: Aroids 2011
Post by: Gerhard Raschun on July 12, 2011, 10:26:26 PM
At the moment the season is finished with the flowering Typhonium giganteum. Here are some picts from my Araceae collection all taken in 2011. The first pict shows my first triple Arisaema hybrid  :D
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