Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: Mini-daffs on August 07, 2007, 12:45:24 PM
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;D
We have had daffodils flowering for a while now but it is only recently that I have taken a few photographs and edited them.
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Hello, Graham, how nice to have you back in the new forum!
Glad to see things are growing well at the other side of the world.
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Hi Graham,
Great to have a taste of spring from the southern hemisphere to remind us of a beautiful time of year and a beautiful selection of plants.
Gorgeous daffodils.
Paddy
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Obviously lots of N. cyclamineus in those above. Mine is just out yesterday so spring REALLY must be on the verge.
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Graham,
Great pics. I'm particularly taken by that flat white hoop. All very nice though.
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:)
Thankyou for the welcome back Maggie.
I have been very busy at the farm so I have been a lurker.
Lots of bulbocodiums out. We have had some nice Mondieu out as well but I did not see the point of posting more photos of it.
While I have posted quite few photos of cyclamineus hybrids we have quite a few standard miniatures out a the moment as well. I only posted photos of a some of our top quality seedlings.
The pick of the photos that I am posting tonight include a top quality miniature 1W-Y seedling that has acceptable petal coverage although we will continue to work to get even better petal coverage.
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Graham,
Great pics again!! Given you have a lot of seedlings in that box that have 7 petals, does that mean that the extra petals are stabilising in the seedlings (i.e it is actually increasing chances in teh breeding) or is it environmental factors that are doing it? Are you trying to breed for extra petals in that way?
The N. asturiensis in lovely. I really like those slightly nodding species types. I must keep an eye out for that species in the future as well, as it is a definite "must have".
Great Stuff!!
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Paul
You are correct in assuming that I have seedlings that usually have more than 6 petals and yes we are breeding for pot miniatures with extra petals. The extra petals are genetic and I know exactly who the offending parent is because it often comes with extra petals. The exhibition purist would not like them but that is not whom I am breeding for with our pot miniatures. I have crossed the pot miniatures in question with a nice form of N. fernandesii to see what I get. Hopefully lots of petals and a nice perfume!
The form of N. asturiensis in the photo is not the form we prefer to use for hybrising as it has thin petals and lots of frill.
I forgot to say that the nice round flat form of the romieuxii hybrid is certainly a keeper. It certainly stands out in a box of seedlings.
To confuse everyone completely, the photos are a mix of our wet and dry hybridings programs. The wet program seedlings live permanently in the shade house along with our large collection of N. cyclamineus. As you will see from the photo of the seedling box I don't tend to take a lot of photos of yellow flowered seedlings since there is often nothing particularly special about them from my point of view. I usually take photos of seedlings that are different and interesting. I usually take multiple photos from different angles but I won't any more than one photo.
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Nice to see your daffs, Graham. You might like to know the babies you sent me this year are doing very well, most have flowered and produced seed. :D
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These are a lovely collection. I specially like the pot of seedlings because it clearly shows the relative size of the plants. These tinies are very cute.
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;D
Anne it good to hear that they are thriving. While it means the bulbs have to be "big" and healthy it also requires skill to turn them around. The skill level is higher in relation to miniatures because of the diminuitive size of the bulbs.
Lesley, I have attached a photo of KB-M-6W-Y-8-07 in its pot. It is shorter in height and the flower size fits our description of a micro mini. It is tiny compared to the larger miniatures. It is from our dry program. I am not sure I will have the time to take pot photos when everything is in full swing. As a general propositon our miniatures are around 10cm tall and our micro miniatures are around 1-5cm tall. When we overdo the miniaturisation they flower at ground level. If you look carefully at the photo of KB-M-6W-Y-6-07 you will notice it has a 2cm stem.
The dry program miniatures are extremely hardy. As Paul has mentioned we have had many years of drought now and it has been a while since our last decent fall of rain but our miniatures have still done quite well. Some of the bulbocodiums have thrived in the dry conditions.
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Wow Graham. That littlie is amazing. I do covet so many of your little gems. So nice to see the pics, Thanks for taking the time to post them!!
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It's hard to imagine anything so tiny, and everything in proportion. A perfect little guy for a small trough. Thanks Graham. Maybe there will be a chance to import some of these to NZ sometime? We are allowed to get dormant daffs.
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Hi
Lesley we do export to New Zealand but the flowers you are looking at this years selected seedlings so I wouldn't hold my breath. However, I commend you on your expensive taste in miniature daffodils. Anything that is tiny and perfect and not all yellow is highly sought after by our US customers.
I have attached some more photos. Some of the flowers are breakthroughs. We are doing a lot of work to improve our standard miniatures and the work is starting to be rewarded. The 6Y-Y is almost miniature in size. It has been bred down from a standard.
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Graham,
Beautiful!! Those white/yellow cyclamineus are great, and that first pic has the most wonderful form.... absolutely fantastic to have got it down to miniature size. 8)
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I agree, lovely form - beautiful! :P
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;D
A few photos from last weekend.
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;D
A few more photos.
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All eminently drool-worthy. Great pics!!
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:-\
A few minor hassles with my photo posting.
Here are the last batch of photos for the moment.
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Deeelightful! :D
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;D
Hi
Interest appears to be waning somewhat so I had better lift the bar a little since people have had their fill of our 6W-Y's that fade to a creamy white.
The first instalment is of some reverse bicolor seedlings that are even rarer than our 6W-Y's. A mixture of miniatures and small intermediates. There are a few with the gold rims that give them a little extra class.
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;D
A few more photos of some of the other daffodils flowering at the moment.
N. asturiensis vasculonis is one of my favourite species because of its superb form.
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::)
I will end today's posts with my "freak show".
3 of the W-Y 8 petalled seedlings are siblings so I have to conclude that the 8 petals are clearly genetic and stable. We will use these for breeding garden flowers.
The split cup is also genetic and stable. I suspect its pollen would produce split cup seedlings. Pity it was not out when the first split cup flowered.
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Graham,
Wow!! Some corkers in there, that is for sure. The asturiensis vasculonis as you say is gorgeous, plus particularly of note to me are KB-M-1Y-WWY-2-07 , KB-I-Y-WWY-1-07 inflexing petals , KB-M-6W-Y-22-07 large miniature and that lovely form of cordubensis. I quite like those 8 petal ones as well. All very nice, and wonderful pics. They must look so much better in person too, albeit comparatively smaller than in the pics. :) Hopefully I'll get to see some of your beauties at the daff show next month!!
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:-[
Paul
Many of these miniatures are 2 weeks ahead of schedule. I am sure we will have some nice things for the show but not what you are seeing at the moment. There is still a lot to flower so it should not be a problem.
4 weeks is too long for me to store most miniatures although N. cyclamineus is usually good for 6 weeks.
What is out at the moment is being used for hybridising. I have done some really good crosses. Because I have things out at the same time that have not been out at the same time before I am able to do things I have not been able to do before.
There is one wet program seedling that I am keeping an eye on. Looked to have a tinge of pink to its trumpet.
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:o Graham, you are just trying to make us jealous! How can you possibly choose between such a number of babies? Most of us would be over the moon with just one of those, and you have BOXES of them! :-\
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KB M 1Y WWY is my favourite
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Graham,
I was assuming I must admit that none of these actual flowers would be there at the show next month. Seeing them in boxes like that is just amazing. You must have such a sheer volume of flowers there right now. Mustn't be easy to pick and choose between them, although finding the particular treasures amongst them is then that much more exciting. ;D
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Hi
Paul it is quite a sight but alas the only people who get to see it besides ourselves are the quarantine people when they do their in growth inspection (and they get paid for the privilege). Plant hygiene, our insurers and the building regulations mean that the only way people will see our daffodils is at the Canberra Show or on the internet.
I have attached some photos of what it looks like in our shadehouse at the moment. Next best thing to being there.
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I noticed that eg in your pots of selected white seedlings you seem to have a very small number of bulbs for the size of the pot. I feel that if I did this there would be problems caused by too much wet compost and too few roots. Would you tell us what mix of compost you use?
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Graham I would like to see larger photos posted about 600 pixels wide.
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;D
Anne our climate is hot and very dry during summer. I want to keep our wet program bulbs moist but not wet. So I use larger pots that contain a mixture of soil, sand and pine fines. Our soil is a sandy loam with a red sand layer underneath. The pots these days are 12 inch squat pots. I would prefer 10 inch squat pots but I have been unable to get them in quantity for the last 2 years from our wholesale supplier. The temperature is dropped by having a shadehouse to put them in. I have noticed that it also reduces the wind. I am very happy with our shadehouse. It is working well. Some years ago I almost lost k1/2000 because the mixture retained too much moisture, ie, the mix was wet.
Selection is not that difficult. You just look for something that is not yellow!
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:o
Mark
I will edit for larger pictures in the future.
The size I have been sending is not a problem for me but I have a 22 inch screen. I also have the original 5 megapixel images.
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Graham,
I can understand the quarantine and insurance issues etc. Makes a lot of sense. Great pics to show us what the shadehouse looks like. I could live with the smaller pics but the larger versions certainly give us a lot more details. Always good when it something so worthwhile seeing! ;D
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That's much better!
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Graham (and Helen)
your mini-daffs are superb; I'm so sorry I won't get to Canberra for the Show (not just because I'm allergic to politicians) it's just a bit far to travel and there's so much happening here at this time of the year.
cheers
fermi
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Hi
It appears that a lot of people wanted large images of the shadehouse. Most of what is in the shadehouse is our wet program bulbs and our collection of species daffodils that require year round moisture. The other boxes and pots in there are our dry program bulbs that are being used for hybridising so we continually improve our miniatures. It is easy to take photos of what is in the shadehouse. It is not so easy to take photos of what is not in the shadehouse. What is not in the shadehouse is our dry program bulbs and species that like it hot and dry in summer (eg Narcissus triandus, Narcissus rupicola, Narcissus dubius,Narcissus tenuifolius, N. romieuxii, N. tazetta, N. wilkommi, N. cordubensis, N. fernandesii, N. jonquilla, Narcissus Minor, Narcissus scaberulus, Narcissus calcicola, ....). What is not in the shadehouse is many times what is in the shadehouse.
Fermi you will be missing one of the great daffodil shows in the world because you can see a large number of some of the best and newest miniatures in the world. We will almost certainly be showing some of our best white miniature triandus hybrids that have 4-6 flowers to a stem and a sort of sparkle to them.
Fermi has also alluded to the fact that Keira Bulbs is a partnership and that the other half is Helen :-*. Helen is also the fairly long standing member of the SRGC. Without her involvement it is unlikely that we would have developed miniature reverse bicolors and miniature pinks. Helen liked reverse bicolors and pinks so it was inevitable that we would breed miniatures in these colors. (Without her I am not sure Keira Bulbs would exist at all as she does the majority of the paperwork for the business.) We do whites and white-yellow miniatures because you need them to breed white-pinks and white-reds/oranges.
Of course the other places to see top quality miniatures are the Claremont and Hobart Shows in Tasmania where Rod Barwick of Glenbrook Bulb Farm exhibits.
I have attached the last lot of photos for this week (they are small images because I edited them on Sunday night before the uprising :D). It was damp and overcast on Sunday so it was not a particularly good day for photographs or hybridising. At a pinch I can continue hybridising in our galactic headquarters (ie Shed No 1) even if it is raining. I don't like not utilising good pollen if it is available. All the good pollen from N. asturiensis vasculonis has been used.
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short fat unattractive wet program tiny miniature
Graham! Wash your mouth out with soap and water! Some of us find short and fat VERY attractive... and this flower is a cute little thing!
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yes short, fat and ugly can live with me anyday.
I was with Brian Duncan on Saturday. He strives for perfection yet many of us would stampede there for future rejects
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:)
OK Mark so what did you get from Brian? Hopefully you left the short fat ones for someone from a somewhat colder climate!!
We keep the short fat white ones because they come in handy for breeding Division 2 miniatures.
Kind regards
Graham
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nothing, nathin', zilch, nada ...
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I do lie slightly ::). He isnt selling miniatures yet. I just hope he doesnt compost those with imperfections. I think that daff breeders are going for perfection the same way rose breeders have but their roses have lost scent. All growers of miniature daffs dont care about imperfections. Isnt 'Gipsy Queen' slightly ugly? I have yet to see a perfect one in my garden
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forgot to say what I did get
N. cyclamineous (02/127) ex col. 02/07 - what ever that means
N. bulbocodium ex North Carolina ex? shy flowering
N. bulbocodium 96.198 ex Morocco
N. bulbocodium (ex Morocco) x N. hedraeanthus 01/1-3
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Hi
Mark, your new N. cyclamineus needs to be kept moist all year but I am sure you knew that already. As a general rule your bulbocodiums will need to be kept dry and baked during summer. There is a form of N. b. citrinus that requires moisture all year but it is from France not Morocco.
I have attached some more photos of our seedlings. We are starting to see a bit of colour now. The 6Y-YOR seedling is a large miniature while the 6W-P seedling is not miniature size but will be very useful for breeding miniature white-pinks.
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very nice.
Next year I must spend a day at Brian's place and take photos of all his. I dont know if he is as far on as you
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;D
It has been quite warm during August so our miniatures are ahead of schedule by about 2 weeks. We look to be sliding back into drought which is not a good thing as level 4 restrictions will not be good for gardeners let alone us.
We have some good standard minis coming through now. Some of them are quite tiny.
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Hi
Mark we have been breeding miniatures a lot longer than Brian and are in the position where we do most of our hybridising using our own seedlings. We don't do too much hybridising with the N.cyclamineus any more because we can use our own 6W-Y and reverse bicolor seedlings. We have one other advantage - a Mediterranean climate although it is a bit dry here at the moment. His advantage is that he can go to Spain and Portugal and get good clones to work with. We do have some very good species clones to work with and we try and get seed of species so we have as many variations as possible. We are flowering coloured miniatures now so we are making lots of progress.
We hybridise most forms of miniatures and are working with our own micro miniatures. I need to take a photo of our first apodanthe hybrid to flower for the season.
My last lot of photos for the evening. The last photo is one for Maggie. The only thing that is not wrong with the flower is its neck!
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:o
Hi
Not sure what to make of the fact that the most viewed photo from my last posting is the worst flower of the lot!
Despite it being a less than attractive flower I had another flower with lots of petals that needed some pollen so it got its chance to pollinate another flower.
I will start with some postings of the shadehouse. Plenty of flowers out at the moment. It won't be long and numbers will start decreasing.
The table in the shadehouse is where I do my hybridising with my surgical quality miniature forceps.
The shadehouse photos are big enough for the keenest person I hope!!
There is also a box of very nice Gipsy Queens for Mark.
I am having some problems with some our seedlings that have pink in the trumpets. They are fading to white. I need to stabilise the pink coloration. We have stable 6W-P seedling that should do the trick but it has not flowered yet. I will just have to make do with standard 6W-P pollen at the moment.
Not as many photos today as we went to the rugby in the afternoon.
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Five of us were at Brians place this year and we all chose the same plant we would most like and also chose the same plant we wouldnt want. We were only asked at the end so we couldnt discuss it it front of the flowers. We dont like the idea of split corona miniatures
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:'(
Mark, we do lots of hybridising and split cups is a tiny part of our hybridising program but we have split cup miniatures of standard form and split cup bulbocodiums. We will end up with W-P and W-W split cup miniatures in all likelihood but that does not mean you have to buy them.
Quite a few people like our 8 petalled miniatures but they will never see a daffodil show.
We breed and grow exhibition miniatures because that is what helps pay the bills for a large scale operation.
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that's a cutie!
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Graham can you tell us what happens once you find the perfect miniature? Do you send it away? Do you chip it? Do you wait for nature to take it's course? ....
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Graham,
Please excuse my lack of response to your fabulous postings. I have been dropping in regularly to view each successive batch of extraordinarily beautiful daffodils but have never taken the moment to say a 'Thank You' for showing these. They truly are exceptional and I imagine of great interest to growers of alpine and rock garden plants who are always taken by beauty in miniature.
Continued success in your breeding programme and do please keep us updated.
Paddy
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???
Hi
Mark, if I found the perfect miniature I would take a photo and show it to Helen. However, it usually takes a number of years to evaluate a flower although I have a preference for selecting perfect exhibition blooms. So I expect them to flower faultlessly in year 1. We do have a faultless exhibition flower and that is Good Friend. It is probably the best 6W-Y miniature available (but I may be a bit biased). I have to admit to be pleased in 2006 when I found our first two genuine miniature 6W-P's but then again I am also happy with our white miniature division 5's.
Commercially, the perfect miniature is a replacement for Tete-a-Tete and yes we are working on that as well!
One of the characteristics of the perfect miniature is that it should be hardy. You don't want them to require the skill of a master gardener to grow them. I have a view that most people should grow miniature cyclamineus hybrids because they are a lot hardier than N. cyclamineus. We have hybrids that look just like the species but they don't require moisture all year.
Mark, I am at a bit of loss as to why I would send them away once I find the perfect miniature. The perfect miniature is of course one that divides rapidly and is exceptionally floriferous. Are you suggesting that I am that good a hybridiser that I might know how to breed such flowers? It would not be the case with our wet season miniatures as they are quite slow to multiply because they are too close to N. cyclamineus. However, it may be possible with our dry program miniatures if you are exceptionally skilled or very lucky. But then again I may have the skills of a surgeon and twin scale rather than chip. Yes, I have the scapel and we now have the facilities to do it and I have done it in the past. However, there is another thing that is called "grassing" that can be used to multiply bulbs as well but that requires a lot of knowledge about bulb growth and flowering.
Mark, we grow a lot of miniatures. It may be more than 100,000 so we have quite a few very good miniatures of various kinds simply because the odds are with us. We have also been doing it for a long time now (we started in the late 1980's). I don't happen to think that the perfect miniature is one that can only be multiplied by twin scaling or chipping. And yes we have seedlings that multiply rapidly and are floriferous despite the rapid increase. Wouldn't you get a bit cranky if you paid top dollar for a bulb that never multiplied?
However, we don't have any arrangements with mass marketers so some of our best bulbs may never be available commercially (in the sense of available at your local nursery). A small number of good exhibition bulbs have been named and released by us and we have released some under number. Financially it is some of the species that bring home the bacon in terms of quantity of sales over the years. Our business is essentially driven by our US market. Miniatures are a big thing for those who exhibit in the US. The best thing is that if your customers are good growers and exhibitors then they tend to win using your bulbs and that has been our experience.
Miniatures are not a big thing in the UK although Brian may help change that. In the UK miniatures are more a feature of alpine gardeners and the focus is more on the species.
That is why the Quarantine people visit our farm each year-so we can export to the US and elsewhere. The market that I would like to crack is the Japanese one but I don't know whether they are into miniatures.
Paddy, thanks. I am never sure whether there is any interest in our flowers from these postings.
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Do you know, Graham, I think it may be that it does not appear that some of your photos are being veiwed much, only because they are quiteclear even from the thumbnails, and so people do not have to click to enlarge them to see what they are looking at, and so the "views" are not being counted. I find I can see the thumbnails pretty welland I expect I'm not the only one.
As to the Japanese market: I would have thought that it was the perfect market place for your miniatures: given their love of plants in general, bonsai skills, and capacity to miniaturise so many electronic gadgets, I would have thought that the Japanese would go crazy for mini-daffs! Good luck with your attempts to break into Japan!
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Graham,
Don't worry about the view count. As Maggi said there is no need to expand most of your images as they are close up photographs showing the bloom alone and so are perfectly clear to view as they are. I am delighted with your postings and look forward to each new addition.
Paddy
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Thank you Graham. It is wonderful to be able to see all your miniatures and to see how you breed them. Am learning such a lot. I don't always click on individual photos because I have dial-up and it takes so long, and anyway your photos are very clear. I always read your posts.
Thank you once again, Susan.
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"Very nice two-tone yellow micro mini" extremely nice
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I have a view that most people should grow miniature cyclamineus hybrids because they are a lot hardier than N. cyclamineus. We have hybrids that look just like the species but they don't require moisture all year.
I agree, Graham, straight N. cyclamineus can be too awkward for some gardens and the hardier hybrids are a great choice.
I think, for appeal to the "alpine" growers, that hardier, more robustly healthy, versions, albeit hybrids, but looking very like one of the parents, would go down a treat. I mean of other species, not just cyclamineus.
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Thank you Graham. It is wonderful to be able to see all your miniatures and to see how you breed them. Am learning such a lot. I don't always click on individual photos because I have dial-up and it takes so long, and anyway your photos are very clear. I always read your posts.
Thank you once again, Susan.
All of this applies to me too Graham, except that today, I'm expecting to have Broadband installed, courtesy my employer. :D :D :D
And if we all said "thank you" for every single super post (in this and many other threads) it would be terribly boring for everyone but you do know, that we all really DO thank you, and all the others who post such super pics with really useful and interesting information.
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;D
Hi
It is nice to know that there are people out there viewing my photos for whatever reason. Remember that this is only our early season and that our flowers will run through to early October. That is a lot of photos and a lot of posting. For us the main game at this time of the year is hybridising.
And now for something completely different...
More daffodil photos.
Unfortunately my photo of our stunning apodanthe hybrid failed along with my N. triandus pulchellus photo.
However, there are some very different and in my 'umble opinion, interesting (and need I say very expensive) new hybrids among this lot of photos!! ;D ;D ;D
Mark, I don't think you will see anything quite like this lot at Brian's place.
The other thing about the jonquilla hybrids is that they, like our Div 6 and standard miniatures are fertile. I also suspect that the triandus hybrids in the photos are also fertile. Now all I have to do is produce some sterile off-spring.
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;D
Hi
A few more photos.
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;D
And a few more photos
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Graham, am I missing something? Why do you need the hybrids to be sterile? So the flowers will last longer?
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;D
Maggie
My final lot of photos for the evening. The freak show. Some are actually very nice flowers but some are beyond redemption.
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Graham,
Fantastic pics as always. So very many I could comment on, but I'll save you the novel. SOOOO many of them I want to own! ;D Some VERY nice plants in there.
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Been away for a few days, and came back to such a feast of daffs! I especially like KB-M-6Y-W-1-07 small miniature - fully reversed with gold band.
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;D ;D
Hi
Anne you can join Lesley in the expensive tastes in miniature daffodils class!! ;D ;D
The down side of having a full-time day job. Off to check the daffodils in the dark. :(
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Graham,
All veyr nice, particularly the first and the second last ones in that series. Love the forms of them. Beautiful. 8)
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the one with the gold band looks, to me, to be a superior 'Gipsy Queen'
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Mark
Gipsy Queen might be a reverse bicolor and is probably in the parentage of the cyclamineus hybrid in question (probably two to three generations back otherwise it is difficult to get the degree of reflex) but I would hardly describe a good quality cyclamineus hybrid with nice reflexing petals as similar to Gipsy Queen that has inflexing petals. Texture-wise the cyclamineus hybrid is far superior.
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I could live with a clump of 1y-y in my garden Graham ! ;D
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;D
Hi
Luc, the 1Y-Y in my photos stands a whole 5cm tall so even if you had a clump it may be a bit difficult to see the clump. It would ok in pots or in alpine troughs or even some sort of rock garden but probably not in an ordinary garden.
As you want lots of them you may also join the Lesley and Anne class for expensive tastes in miniature daffodils.
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5 cm ???
Don't make me drool even more Graham - I would easily find a suitable place in a trough or a raised bed....
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;D
Hi
Luc, 5 cm is not an unusual height for our miniatures. Look through the photos I have posted and you will see just how small some of our flowers are. 15cm is a tall miniature for us. 10 cm is the height of a normal miniature. 2-5cm is the height of our micro minis. Occasionally we get it wrong and the flower flowers at ground level (see attached photo). I also find stem heights of 1 cm a little too short. They are very difficult to work with. My forceps are equally tiny and almost as expensive as our flowers.
Nearly all the flowers in the photos I have posted would be less than 4 cm in diameter. The photos are to that extent quite misleading. That is why I have occasionally posted photos of them in their pots or boxes. I thought you had made a mistake about their size when you said you would not mind a clump of them. The largest flowers I have posted photos of are N. pseudonarcissus moschatus and N. eugeniae. They are intermediate sized flowers compared to the modern standard hybrids.
I will try and post a photo of something to truly drool over tomorrow evening.
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;D ;D
Hi
I thought I only had one flower to truly drool over but I don't think that is correct. I will let you judge. ;D ;D
Maggie I have a N. fernandesii lookalike but I messed up because it is white rather than yellow!! :o
;D ;D
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This is a super selection of flowers, Graham. I'm getting quite keen on the pink ones now.
You still haven't explained why you suggested that you preferred sterile hybrids... ??
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::)
Hi
Maggie you don't want to develop tastes that are quite that expensive!! But then again everything in that group is expensive.
Selection is easy when it comes to miniature 6W-Ps. See the photo of the seedling box.
Luc's clumping miniature is also shown in its full glory in its seedling box!!
Too many petals is preferable to too few!!
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;D ;D
Hi
A few more photos.
You will some wet program 6W-P's that are not miniature but bear a strong resemblance to some of our miniatures. They are what can happen with N. cyclamineus as the seed parent. N. cyclamineus is not a dwarfing parent.
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Graham,
you don't stop amazing us all with these unbelievable little beauties.
I don't know what to drool over first... :-\
I wouldn't mind a clump(let) of any of them - these pinkish specimen are superb.
Many thanks for showing them - that gives us the time to consider a bank robbery ;D
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:P :o :P I quite like the twisted petalled ones, and the pinks are (almost) starting to appeal too.
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:o
Hi
Anne, twisted petals are a BIG no no in exhibition flowers. We don't have many seedlings with twisted petals and I work to breed the twisted petals from any progeny. Complex but we can do it fairly easily these days.
Kind regards
Graham
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Maggi, I may be doing Graham a terrible injustice here but I wondered about sterile hybs too, and thought it was perhaps a case of not letting opposition have access to the best things. Can't use them if they're sterile. Understandable if so, and if one is breeding for a living - if you see what I mean ;)
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Hi
Lesley, our competition is Glenbrook Bulb Farm and Rod has the skill and breeding stock to match us if he were so inclined. He has lots of nice stuff as Fermi's postings show. We grow nearly all of his flowers but I only post photos of our flowers. The other thing is that we regard him as our mentor. Some of our best hybrids have his flowers in their parentage. He is a more left field hybridiser than I am (the parentage of Snook is a case in point and we have some of his involved seedlings where the parentage is nothing short of brilliant). I tend to be a methodical and boring hybridiser who does things on a large scale so the odds are with me. The ability to breed miniature pinks is very much an odds game if you know what you are doing.
Hybridisers often share breeding stock that is not publicly available. We have an all apricot standard flower. Not exhibition quality but it is one of the few all pink flowers around. Very valuable but since it is not what we do we sent one to Dr John Reed who, besides being a friend, is one of the major hybridisers in the US.
What may not be readily apparent is that if you have a pink miniature jonquilla and you want to produce more nice pink miniature seedlings the easiest way to do so is to breed sterile hybrids. You cross the fertile pink with N. dubius, N. waterii or N.atlanticus. In our case we could use one of our white miniatures. N. dubius is a good breeder for colour. The hard way to do it is to go down the fertile route. A lot longer process because the odds are much lower.
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Anne, I was also going to post to say that I liked the seedling with the twisted petals. I thought it added interest to the flower, even though I know it's not considered desirable for show daffs. But I copped out. Now I can own up to liking the twisted petals as you came out first! :)
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I think us folk really like what the breeders hate. At Brian Duncans this year he was pointing out problems that an ordinary grower wouldnt see
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The growers are missing out on an opportunity here - sell the redundant ones which have nice little touches of character to we alpine types who like more natural things, then the boring, standard stuff for a lot of money to the daffodil exhibitors! ;D
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I know a plant breeder who composts his rejects
If only Graham was closer we could could organise a trip in 2008
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It's understandable that we who are not plant breeders want the breeders' rejects, as many are lovely things but I imagine the breeders would prefer if what they see as inferior, were not to be spread around. If one is searching for perfection in whatever field, the less than perfect should be dumped. It's all a matter of perception. What is imperfect to the breeder may be delightful and beautiful to a mere gardener who may see the "perfect" plant as overbred or too-man made; further away from the "wild" plant which, in general, is what alpine growers would prefer.
Composting the rejects is a common practice among iris breeders at least. Or burning them so as to prevent pests and diseases speading from one plant to others.
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::)
Hi
We primarily breed exhibition quality miniatures. They have to be good enough to win a mini gold at a Show in the US or be part of a winning Watrous miniature class. With the bulb costs, quarantine fees and turnaround time it is only a keen exhibitor who wants something really good that is going to want to import from Australia. And yes our bulbs have done very well so we must be doing something right. It is also the driving influence in pursuing high quality miniature whites, reverse bicolors and coloured miniatures. Twisted petals have no place in such a program so we breed out twists. Some of the flowers you have seen with twists are first generation miniaturisations of intermediate sized species. Some small trumpet species (such as N. eugeniae and N. perez-chiscanoi) have nice trumpets that I want to incorporate into our miniatures. Those flowers will never leave the farm. In this business reputation is everything and it takes a long time to be recognised as a quality supplier of exhibition bulbs so you are not going to let bad product out. If we did standards the rejects would end up as part of the cut flower trade.
We do have hybridising programs that have nothing to do with exhibition bulbs but I can't say that there are too many with twisted petals.
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That top photo, the 6 y-y seedling is very nice indeed, as is the second to bottom, reverse bicolour.
I used to know a nerine breeder near here who would get very frustrated by visitors to the nursery who didn't swoon over his latest seedlings but went for something older and less perfect from his earlier crosses. He knew what his breeding aims were and was pleased when his results matched his expectations, but of course not all his visitors even knew what the breeder's aims were, let alone had an eye well trained and experienced enough to see what he was seeing, or were simply looking for something else, like a good garden plant rather than an exhibition bloom.
Me, I throw away very little (unless truly ugly or prone to disease) from my snowdrop breeding programme. Largely because I'm not aiming for any particular exhibition-type set of features (as snowdrops are not exhibition bulbs) apart from general size, vigour, disease resistance and (that vague concept) 'beauty'. But also because (unlike daffs) there's almost nothing known yet about the breeding genetics of galanthus, so no-one really knows what might or might not be useful for breeding this or that feature in the future. Also, as I'm breeding for good garden bulbs, something not outstanding in one feature or another might, with time, prove a good garden plant, and it can take some years for a good garden plant to show its true colours - it might look like nothing much as a single flower but, after some years, turn out to be a fast increaser, very healthy, disease resistant and much better looking in a clump. Then it would be valuable for breeding. So I always hesitate, at this early stage in snowdrop breeding, to lob anything at the compost heap.
Only problem is, that doesn't half eat up valuable garden space!
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;D
No frustrations as we don't have very many visitors because of insurance, builiding and quarantine issues. One of our very few visitors was Dr Reed and since he is probably the largest breeder of daffodils in the world (from recollection he has about 40 acres of them) he had a good appreciation of our seedlings. He was a little taken by the quality of what we ignored but for us there is no money in standards and yellow daffodils so they are first to be ignored. We have plenty of room although I am trying to limit my self to about an acre of daffodils now. An acre can hold a lot of miniatures!! More than I can handle easily on my own but I am an habitual breeder.
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More than I can handle easily on my own but I am an habitual breeder.
Are you breeding yourself an army of garden helpers then, Graham?
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I have to admit I'm an habitual breeder too. I've done it with primroses, hellebores, snowdrops and small daffs so far, but have my eye on some nice campanulas too. :o
My trouble is I only have a small fraction of an acre, which is why these days the garden's pretty much been taken over by snowdrops.
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No doubt about it, we have a right bunch of breeders in this Forum and no mistake! ::) :o
Still, they can't touch you for it... yet!
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:-[
Hi
And I thought this was a wholesome site!! ::)
Anne, some offspring but not that keen on hybridising. Daughter who helps at Show time is in the UK at the moment. They all like to drive the tractors!
I have attached some species photos. I need to check up about what is shown as N. wilkommii. It is probably the same as Fermi's but I don't think that is what it is. However, it is going to have more flowers than ever this year. Must be the effects of neglect and drought!
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;D
A few more photos.
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;D
A few more photos.
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'Good Friend' is just lovely, Graham, no wonder it has done so well for you.
I think I never met a triandrus hybrid that I didn't love, I think they are so dainty.
What is the reason behind this intriguing name 'Pilgrim Clay'?
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Again, I think the triandrus hybrid with twisted petals is very nice as a non-exhibition plant - very elegantly twisted, like a cyclamen (in fact much more like a cyclamen than N. cyclamineus).
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There is obviously a huge difference between Narcissus/Daffodill society exhibition expectations and those for the same plants at an SRGC show... we would be looking for health and garden worthiness or pot-quality... twisted petals would scarcely come in to the equation, if at all, since these can readily occur in pure species, too.
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I have just discovered that my calendar tells me that this (September 2nd) is Father's Day in Australia... so a very happy fathers' day to all you Australian breeders, sorry, Dads!
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;D
The giant bulbocodium is to be named after a friend from the US whose name is Clay Higgins.The pilgrim bit relates to his finding his way among bulbocodiums. He is a very good exhibitor. He kindled my interest in doing bulbocodium hybridising. We are focussing on tiny hybrid and giant hybrids that are not miniature because they are more than 2 inches (5cm) in diameter. The giant ones stand out in the seedling boxes I can assure you. We have already named a giant late flowering bulbocodium Clay's Gold.
Naming is a hassle. It is something that I am way behind with. With miniatures it is nice to have names that match the diminuitive nature of the flowers or are a bit cheeky.
Maggie, yes it was father's day yesterday and I received a text message from my daughter who is currently in the UK. I am now waiting to hear how much money she wants!! ::) ::)
Lots of breeding done on father's day--I expect at least 5,000 new daffodil children in a couple of years! ;D ;D
I agree that there is a world of difference between your alpine garden shows and daffodil shows. You don't have rules that perfection of form is an ideal and you are not into colour like daffodil growers. With miniatures there is a bit of an obsession with tiniest is best. Personally, I think that it is going a bit far. We have bred lots of tiny flowers but there are several issues. A judge with poor eyesight cannot judge them because they cannot see whether they have any faults. (Photos often show up just how poor the judging is when the judge has poor eyesight or a lack of knowledge about miniatures because they show the faults clearly because of the magnification.) The other thing relates to what they look like on the show bench. That being said I have picked some really high class tiny apodanthe hybrids for the Canberra Show. We have some truly tiny triandus hybrids. Suspect the other parent is the late flowering form of N. rupicola. It what a hybridiser with lots of NTT and N. rupicola does late in the season.
The Canberra Show is one of the best shows in the world for miniature daffodils (helps if you have a commercial hybridiser in the area). The other shows where there is a lot to see are the Tasmanian shows at Claremont and Hobart.
I hope Lesley has noticed that nature has delivered me the perfect split cup N. cordubensis for breeding split cup miniatures. ;D
Some more miniature jonquilla hybrid photos for you.
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I'm sure Lesley will notice the split cup cordubensis, Graham.. I did! But, as I think Lesley will agrese, there's split... and then there's split! The natural version is so much more appealing, I think because it looks intended and not contrived, because the finish is neater!
I hope your travelling daughter doesn't want too much money or we'll never be able to afford your little yellow babies! ::) :-\
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;D
Hmmm. Contrived??? No more contrived than any other of our miniatures I would suggest. The thing about the N. cordubensis is that it is a very neat split of six. That matches the perianth segments. That is the same as our N. jacetanus seedling.
Some of the split pollen ended up on some nice standard reverse bicolor miniatures.
OK how would your alpine garden shows treat our miniatures with too many petals? It is naturally occurring when you grow large numbers of seedlings. Bit like N. cyclamineus can come with 2 florets occasionally.
Maggie, I don't do much yellow hybridising any more. I like to produce flowers that change colour over time. Makes the RHS colour chart almost impossible to work with. It also makes the colour code for daffodils a bit redundant. I am quite taken with our jonquilla hybrids that have different coloured florets on the same stem. 3 or 4 flowers all differently coloured.
In terms of coloured miniatures, I have achieved my aim of breeding 6W-P, 6Y-P and 7W-P miniatures. We have produced reverse bicolor and white miniatures so that leaves us with high quality Y-R, W-R, W-O and O-O miniatures.
One thing has helped us. When we started out breeding daffodils we produced a lot of intermediate sized seedlings. This was one of the reasons we turned to miniatures--our standard daffodils were just too small.
However, those very seedlings have helped us produce coloured miniatures. We didn't throw them out so we have a large stock of breeding material. These intermediates are more valuable than any exhibition quality standards that we have bred. ;D Some of intermediates have short stems because I used some of our very small hybrids to produce them. Just the right thing for breeding coloured miniatures as it turned out.
Helen liked white-pinks, white and reverse bicolors so we bred them.
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Graham, I meant to mention, but forgot to, that the split-cup N. corbudensis looked very good, very regular. And the jonquil hybrid with different-coloured florets is very interesting. I'm trying to imagine what it might be like taken to extremes through future breeding, with even more contrasting differences in floret colours. I can imagine purists might be quite shocked ;D but I'd bet such a novel development could have considerable commercial appeal. My own tastes in flowers are moving gradually from demure and unostentatious more and more towards the garish and eye-catching as I get older. Not sure what the psychology of that is, but I suspect it's a desire to squeeze more sheer fun into life as it gets shorter ;D
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:o Good grief - even I was (almost) taken with the split cup cordubensis, you can always pretend it's not a daffodil and then it's quite pretty! I'm intrigued about the ones with different coloured florets. Do they stay that colour or cycle round? Are they chimeras? What the heck is happening genetically?
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I did indeed notice Graham and chose not to comment rather than be rude to you. (Note my restraint Maggi.) However, one thing I also noticed and I'd appreciate YOUR comment about it, was in the pic above the split cup, the flower had a nicely indented cup and I wondered whether daffs with that "scalloped" finish to the cup all had the potential to split. It seems almost to be the first step on the way to splitting. In which case, N.b. romieuxii `Joy Bishop' could also go that way at some time, presumably is some other conditions were right. what do you think?
Actually, while I don't like split cups in any daff at all, yours above gives the flower a hose-in-hose appearance which is similar to the artificial daffs being sold around NZ at present (officially on "Daffodil Day), the Cancer Society's big fund-raising event of the year. While I'm happy to donate to this cause, I prefer to wear a small `Gambus' or cyclamineus in my button hole or on my collar.
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;D
Hi
Lesley, it is all a matter of taste. I happen to like them and I don't mind them turning up occasionally among our species collection. I don't like twisted petals and I am not that keen on short fat miniatures that don't have much going for them. I am also not that keen on the standard 1Y-Y exhibition forms that have a certain sameness to them.
I do like nice scalloping and I wish I had more bulbocodiums with this characteristic.
Scalloping does not turn into splits. Splitting is genetic and occurs in a very small number of seedlings. Scalloping is more common, particularly amongst bulbocodiums (except mine). One of the more spectacular splits is the one where parts of the cup are actually missing (Tricollet is the parent of our form of these seedlings). Biggest problem is that if you over achieve you end up with a perianth and no cup!!
I have attached some photos from our photo library in relation to splits and colour. Martin, splits and colour seem to be your thing.
Lesley give the photos a miss if you don't like splits and colour.
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::)
Oops.
Anne, quite a few of our miniatures change colour over time. They can start off a sort off yellow and end up white or white with bands of gold. It is genetic and occurs because of the very complex parentage of the flowers. Lots of involved breeding. Unfortunately this has been an adverse feature of some of pink miniatures. When you want a stable colour you end with something that is pink one moment and white the next!! We do have several stable miniature W-Ps and they will be the key to future stable W-P miniatures. Far more interesting than boring yellow!! You probably have the seedlings that will enable you to do it if you do the right crosses.
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I have been enjoying the pics a lot and since I am into the slightly vulgar in flowers (or how can I put it nicely flowers that stand out) "primadonnas", the last batch of pictures is great and will cause a great wanting in me.
I have been wondering how pink is pink? Now I see that pink IS pink. For the comercial 5 for 5€ it is NEVER the case atleast as what is available in Sweden. At the best they seem to be apricot. Does anyone know of "commercial" white and pinks?
Thanks for posting al the pics they are very enjoyable
Kind regards
Joakim
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What I was trying to ask was whether the different florets retained their differences as they matured.
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Graham, seeing those latest pics, I may have spoken too soon about liking garish! ;D I'm moving a bit more in that direction, but generally speaking the most garishly coloured and wilder split coronas in the large daffs aren't quite my thing just yet.
I do, however, find some of the more regular, shapely split coronas quite appealing, and especially in the miniatures where the effect seems somehow neater and more subdued by the overall size.
For example, I think that split corona N. watieri is the one you showed on the forum last year, and I still think it's very nice indeed. The intermediate 11 W-P also appeals to me in a wedding-cakey sort of way - it looks almost edible! Not so sure about the others though, especilally the ones that look a bit like splatted fried eggs. As I've always said, though, it's all a matter of personal taste and I'm sure there are plenty of other people who love them.
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I'm enjoying the pictures and the conversation but could someone enlighten me as to the numbering structure, eg. 11W-P. Is this a code Graham uses in his hybridisation programmes or a code structure used in the Narcissus showing world? ???
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David it's the classification of Daffodils. Here are photos of each class
http://daffodilusa.org/daffodils/div.html (http://daffodilusa.org/daffodils/div.html)
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Sorry American Daffodil Society I lifted this from your web site
All Daffodils are classified into one of the thirteen divisions described below:
Division 1 - Trumpet
One flower to a stem, corona (trumpet or cup) as long or longer than the perianth segments (petals).
Division 2 - Large Cup
One flower to a stem, corona (cup) more than one third but less than equal to the length of the perianth segments (petals).
Division 3 - Short Cup
One flower to a stem, corona (cup) not more than one third the height of the perianth segments (petals).
Division 4 - Double
Daffodils have a clustered cup, petals or both. There can be one or more flowers per stem.
Division 5 - Triandrus
Usually more than one flower to a stem, head drooping, perianth segments often reflexed and of silky texture.
Division 6 - Cyclamineus
One flower to a stem, perianth significantly reflexed and corona straight and narrow. Some exceptions exist.
Division 7 - Jonquilla
Usually several flower heads to a stem, flowers usually fragrant, stem is round in cross-section and foliage is often rush like.
Division 8 - Tazetta
Usually three to twenty flowers to a stout stem, sweet scented and very short cupped. Perianth segments rounded and often somewhat crinkled.
Division 9 - Poeticus
Usually one flower to a stem. White petals sometimes stained with the corona color at the base, small flat cup edged with red. Fragrant.
Division 10 - Bulbocodium Hybrids
Small flowers resemble a "hoop petticoat" form.
Division 11 - Split Corona
Corona split - usually more than half its length.
a) Collar Daffodils Split-corona daffodils with the corona segments opposite the perianth segments; the corona segments usually in two whorls of three
b) Papillon Daffodils Split-corona daffodils with the corona segments alternate to the perianth segments; the corona segments usually in a single whorl of six
Division 12 - Other Cultivars
Daffodils not falling into any of the previous categories.
Division 13 - Species
All species and reputedly wild forms.
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Thanks Mark, now I understand 8)
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I can live happily with other people having different taste - in everything. Not everyone loves Bach Beethoven and Brahams after all, and they can still be perfectly acceptable people ;D
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;D
Hi
Lots of nice apodanthe hybrids out at the moment together with some very tiny triandus hybrids.
Joakim, there are lots of standard white-pinks available. Dr John Reed has bred white-reds from the American pinks. I am not sure who you can purchase from but I am sure Mark Smyth could tell you who sells Brian Duncan's daffodils these days. If you can import them you can also import from either Mitsch or Oakwood Daffodils in the US. A fellow called Ron Scamp in the UK has some nice split cups. However, don't expect 5 for 5 euros. They sell exhibition daffodils like us so you will paying for the latest and greatest. Although you will be surprised to find out that as a general rule good standards are generally speaking a fraction of the price of good miniature daffodils! The 5 for 5 euros sellers are offering daffodils that were bred many many years ago that are now available in quantity.
The pinks you will see from us are primarily the Australian pink which is different to the cherry pink of the American breeders. Brian Duncan's pink is different again. However, our latest miniature 6W-P is more an American pink. Very odd because I can remember having one flower that early so I must have used pollen from a Show.
Lesley, don't read any further, it may offend! Martin, we have the technical skills to produce almost any colour or form of daffodil now so you can expect to see miniature split cups that are pretty well replicas of the standards in both colour and form in the fulness of time. How about an all pink miniature split cup? You may think I am joking but once you know we have more than one all apricot pink standard seedling you would realise that is in fact very possible.
Our friend at Glenbrook Bulb Farm has an extensive range of miniature doubles already.
David, the terminology that I use is that for daffodils. Mark has lifted the descriptions from the ADS web site but the ruling body for descriptions and naming of daffodils is the RHS. It is the International Daffodil Registrar. Colour codes are as per the [very expensive] RHS colour chart. And "yes" we have our own RHS colour chart so we can register our little darlings (I am running behind but that is life). All the information Mark has provided is available from the RHS website but it harder to find. Most of our splits are the collar form rather than the papillon form. What it does tell is that the RHS and the daffodil societies in the UK live in a separate world to the alpine garden world. Although Mark has ventured to the dark side by visiting Brian Duncan. Brian is breeding miniatures now and has quite an extensive collection of species daffodils to further his hybridising efforts.
Talking about missing things. I managed to flower N. cypri for the first time but did not realise that was what it was. I thought it was N. papyraceous! That will teach me not to check the labels.
Ann, once all florets are mature they are the same colour but by then the first floret may be dying because it is past its prime.
It may come as a surprise but some of the best scalloped bulbocodiums I have ever seen are raised by another hybridiser here in Canberra. He also has a split cup bulbocodium. Unfortunately my photos of his flowers are not good but since I own the copyright I will post them. I am not sure but I think he has lost the scalloped bulbocodium in the drought.
Lesley, nice to hear you can live happily with other people having different taste. If you get a copy of the latest NZ Daffodil Journal you will see I have contributed to that august publication an article about our various hybridising programs. It has some nice photos as well. My maternal grandfather was from Nelson in NZ. His family were pioneers in that part of NZ.
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Graham thanks for the info on the pinks.
The 5 for 5€ looks as pinks as Yours on the package but not in real life. That is a bit misleading and have made quite a few people angry. >:(
I am not implying that You should sell Yours 5 for 5 but just wanted to know what is out in "that world".
The split Yellow almost looks like a yellow pelagonia in the flower. Not my thing but interesting.
Kind regards
Joakim
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::)
Joakim, it is a feature of the mass marketers in Europe that they "touch up" the photos in terms of making pink pinker and red redder in their marketing photos. >:( The other thing they do is invent names for existing cultivars and use of photos of something that is not in the package. >:( Totally illegal in Australia and New Zealand. It is a frequently raised topic on daffnet because it makes a lot of people angry.
You will find that the colour in the catalogues I have mentioned is not a result of skills with Photoshop.I don't edit my photos for colour. What you see is the colour of the flower as it is here. ;D
It is the time to seek out catalogues from Northern hemisphere suppliers now. I can send you a John Reed catalogue if you let me have your e-mail address. The addresses of most of the quality suppliers is on the American Daffodil Society website.
Do you grow your daffodils in Sweden or Portugal. Portugal is the home to N. cyclamineus.
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Graham,
I put off looking at this thread for the last week because I had limited time and KNEW it would take a while. 4 pages in a week, and WHAT PICTURES!!!!!!!!? Wow. I just want so many of them (to put it mildly). Some of the pink cyclamineus in particular caught my eye, but the white fernandesii really appeals to me (I just love those species types, absolutely adore them and the smaller the better!! ;D). 'Good Friend' is fantastic, the split watieri is another "to die for" flower (I cried this year when I found my pot of N. watieri was empty.... one of my very fav daffs and it has gone to the Goddess. >:( ...... and I rather liked the first of the split coronas with the bits missing. I don't mind split daffs generally, but I quite like the "3 point" effect of the missing bits. Something unusual. And the idea of miniature doubles..... swoon!!!!! :o
Yep, you can tell I am enjoying your pics as always. SO looking forward to the show. ;D 8) Thanks for taking the time to share all these pics with us.
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Graham
I am new to Portugal and only this year did I try with some 25 for 5€ to get something below the pots with citrus threes we had in the glassed veranda. The result was not that good since a lot of the bulbs goot eaten and rot away. I had some flowering but will leave the pots outside this year and they seem to be doing much better, both the citrus and the narcissus.
I have not been out and looked at flowers in any good place and hence not seen N. cyclamineus.
In Sweden we have some narcisus and they are nice since they are not eaten by dear (Bambi). With narcissus I am more gardner than collector but I start to realize that quallity is not that bad and quantity might be less good if the space is limmited.
I would much appreciate a catalogue and will send You my email.
In Hungary I have nice N.poeticus (not sure if it is a spices or an old cultivar/hybrid).
The old and good garden narcissus to me are the ones that take care of them selfs so I have been thinking of them as self-relient. That is a different thing compared to show plants that one fuss and take great care of. I need to get my head around narcissus as great show plants and not only great garden plants. You have truly shown the greatness of narcissus and I will be very happy if some of these ones prove to be also nice gardenplants in the future.
Thanks again for taking the time to show and educate us.
Kind regards from warm Portugal
Joakim
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;D
Joakim
There is an issue when it comes to good garden plant versus exhibition quality. In this regard you need to see which daffodil is described as a good garden plant. If you have a small area then intermediates and miniatures are best but if you have a larger area then it is standards. In relation to older varieties great care needs to be taken because of virus (oops an unmentionable) and also the tendency of some old varieties not to flower but just produce foliage. What is often sold as King Alfred is usually not King Alfred but a later variety that is more likely to flower.
I think that the catalogues I have described will have good modern varieties that will do well for you in the garden and develop into good clumps. Mitsch has an excellent range of hardy white pinks including split cups. If you have limited space go for quality rather than quantity. A standard 1Y-Y that has done well for us in the field is Hitch Hiker. It is a Jackson variety and may be still available through Mitsch in the USA (the advantage of Mitsch is that you don't have to turn them around but there may still be quarantine issues-I am not sure as I only know what applies to our bulbs). But if you want to wow your friends you go for some of the white-pinks. Some of the split cup white pinks are simply sensational.
We are primarily breeders and sellers of exhibition miniature daffodils. You have to be a real enthusiast to grow our daffodils (latest and greatest) but our daffodils are no more expensive than the best of Brian Duncan's when he was in business. We put out lists in December/ January because we are in the southern hemisphere. You also have to pay quarantine costs and then turn them around. If you want to win at a show you pay an arm and a leg for Good Friend but if you just want something white and miniature you pay an arm for Second Fiddle (so named because it was not as good a Platinum Legend our first exhibition miniature). Second Fiddle is very floriferous, multiplies well and is fairly hardy (we grow our dry program miniatures outdoors in conditions similar to Spain or parts of California).
What has been eating your daffodils?
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Graham what was eating the daffodils where "mini fly lava" the larva of fruitfles or something similar. That together with to wet conditions made them rot. Otherwise I love that they are not eaten by any mammal.
Graham You are right since space is an issue I have stated thinking drifferently from how I used to think (the bigger the better).
We (Sweden and Portugal) are inside the European union so we have to have quarantine from US but is ok from UK and the rest of EU. It would be fun to really have a pink one. I have seen that the "newer standards" (5 for 5) are not as hardy as some of the "old ones" and hence do not come back :) at least not in Sweden. For Portugal I will wait untill I have land of my own before putting Your excelent bulbs in the ground or in a pot.
The old ones in Sweden are old since they surrvived for a long time in different soils and still managed to flower. They are far from spectacular in flower but in "mass plantings" they are nice.
Kind regards
Joakim
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Hello. Way back in September 2005, in the old forum there were various posts about a Narcissus called 'Yimkin'... Here is the original link to the page, http://www.srgc.org.uk/discus/messages/8/16212.html?1148052405
but , for ease, I repot the comments and some pix here....
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The photos are from Lesley Cox, who was struggling with slug and snail damage at the time, as you can see. Here are Lesley's comments when she posted the pix,
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:02 pm: Lesley Cox
This little baby is called `Yimkin.' It's a seedling bred by the late Carl Teschner of Dunedin, NZ. Carl was an elderly man when I met him back in the early sixties and died I think in the early seventies. He was the first NZer to join the AGS in 1929. I shall always remember him, gnome-like, hopping from rock to rock in his very steep garden. A clever grower, kindly and generous too.
also some from Graham Fleming ( MiniDaffs)...
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 11:03 am: Graham Fleming
I could not find Yimkin in the stud book so it may be an unregistered name unless it has been only registered fairly recently. Yimkin looks like a jonquilla hybrid. They often put up secondary flower stems.
Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 4:02 am: Lesley Cox
I think that you're right Graham and `Yimkin' has never been registered. It is quite distinct from any other I've met so may be worth registering if only as a memorial to Carl Teschner, often known here as the "father" of alpine gardening in NZ. He was a great Iris man too and had many bulbous species and others which certainly aren't around now.
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So... why is she posting this now, I hear you ask?
Simple: I have had an email form Jocelyn and Ian Bell of Kowahi Park Wanganui , New Zealand who have send me this photo of their Narcissus 'Yimkin' along with some info about their source.
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Jocelyn and Ian tell me that "We purchased our "Narcissus "Yimkin"from the late Charlie Challenger more than 15 years ago. The plants in a pot are starting into flower."
They were also good enough to attach a copy of the nursery catalogue of said Mr Challenger. I'm working on that to show you!
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The Bells' bulbs were obtained from the late Mr Clhallenger, who, with his wife Pat, ran the Kereru nursery in Okuti Valley, Little River, Canterbury NZ. The Challengers started the nursery in 1984 and, in 1993, when the catalogue was dated, sent a message to their customers that they were cutting back from their remit as an nursery for Alpines, Bulbs and Rock Garden Plants, to simply be Bulb sellers...they were, as they said " after all, both supposed to be retired". Thus, the alpines would be phased out and they would concentrate on the bulbs.... I do not know how long this continued , or when Charlie died, nor the fate of Pat.. but someone out there will surely know...
In the 1993 bulb catalogue, they listed Narcissus 'Yimkin' ... calling it " an outstanding cyclamineous hybrid, with a quality and form quite suitable for the show bench. Tiny golden flowers, only 4 inches tall. VERY SCARCE and only the second time we've ever had enough to offer. $6.00
Interesting to get another slant on this little narcissus. isn't it? My thanks to Jocelyn and Ian Bell for getting in touch and allowing me to post this.
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Voices from my dark past! As I remember, the last time I met Ian and Jocelyn was up a mountain following the first of the NZAGS study weekends. I wonder, do they lurk here from time to time?
I think Charlie Challenger died a few years ago but to be honest, I'm not sure so I hope someone from the Christchuch area will post something here and clear that up. Charlie was a great grower with many contacts among the bulb and plant collectors of the 40s, 50s, and later so was the original source of many precious things in NZ. He was also a firm believer in keeping records of his plants' lives and I remember Pat saying once that he was so busy making lists he no longer had time to grow the plants, but I think her tongue was firmly in her cheek as she said it.
FYI, Kereru is the native wood pigeon, a beautiful iridescent bird of approximately blue/grey/green colouring but with a rich plum sheen. It also seems to be wearing a snow-white singlet, white chest which extends as "straps" over each shoulder. We have a lot round here though it is endangered in many parts of the country. Apparently it was one of the tastier birds for Maoris but is protected now, though many Maoris want that reversed and a number able to be shot for "cultural" food purposes. I offer no comment on that.
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Kereru is the native wood pigeon
That explains the wood pigeon which is in the logo of this nursery, and shown in the pdf the Bells sent me.
Yup, there is often a clue!
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http://www.raywilsonbirdphotography.co.uk/Galleries/Birds/World/Pigeons/New%20Zealand%20Pigeon.html (http://www.raywilsonbirdphotography.co.uk/Galleries/Birds/World/Pigeons/New%20Zealand%20Pigeon.html)
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Thanks for the pigeon link Mark. That's a really nice website. I've taken numerous photos of the pigeon but never achieved anything better than a blur as it passes. It rests way too high for a good amateur pic, often in the tops of poplars or at its lowest, on the power lines.
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;D
Hi
It has not been a good day for photos or hybrising but since we desparately need some rain I can't complain.
I have taken several photos of our miniature and intermediate W-Ps that are stable. The miniature 6W-P has faded to more of an Australian pink.
It would have been nice if our N. pseudonarcissus moschatus had had pollen.
The large miniature is a bit big for us and does not have the refinement we prefer but it is going to be a strong pink.
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best looking for me in that batch is the Interestingly coloured tiny miniature with 8 petals.jpg
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I also like that one, and no.2 the failed one is lovely and delicate. I obviously have very poor taste!
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::)
Hi
Mark
That is a Maggie type of flower!! :o :o It would attract attention provided the viewer has good eyesight-it is quite tiny.
The small intermediate pink would be a worthy flower for an alpine trough but too expensive and its need for constant moisture may be a bit of a problem.
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;D
Anne, No 2 is only just too big to be miniature and it is almost certainly fertile so that choice puts you well and truly into the expensive tastes category.
The 8 petalled one has no market for us at the moment. No exhibition grower would buy it. In terms of colour and size it would be highly desirable if it had 6 petals.
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Graham,
I too like the 8 petalled one... has character and definitely a great colouration. I really like the moschatus plena as well. Can't say I exactly ahte any of the others either, to be honest!! ;D
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;D ;D ;D
A few photos of what is flowering today.
I hope you enjoy them.
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;D
Hi
A few more photos for you.
Lesley a few photos of N. cordubensis showing various degrees of heavy scalloping.
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I need to stop saying "wow" but Miniature reverse bicolor - side view with ruler.jpg WOW!
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;D ;D ;D
Mark, that little flower has been around a couple of years now. It has won reserve champion at the Australian Daffodil Championship in 2005. I need to lift it and pot it up separately.
It won't make the show bench this year as it has some insect damage on the other side.
It is a really high quality exhibition flower but the ruler was more to show the size of our flowers.
The real breakthrough is the standard miniature 1W-P.
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;D
Hi
A few more photos.
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Reserve Champion, Champion Miniature and Champion Division 6.jpg w.o.w
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::)
Mark, you have managed to be wowed by one of the really high class miniature exhibition daffodils!! What is happening? It is a bit like picking out the most expensive designer clothes from a collection of expensive designer clothes! However, it is a very nice flower and all you have proved is that it has wider appeal than daffodil afficionados.
And now a few photos for Maggie!! What is the Scottish terminology for waif?
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I do love those with a gold edge to the trumpet (sigh...) :P
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Me too Anne, and also the "tiny unusual coloured seedling,' last in that first group from yesterday's (Sunday's) posting. The ruler is a great help in showing the scale of these little gems.
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Supposing one were to buy some of these little cuties from Graham.... how would one go about "turning them around" to life over here in the UK?
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No doubt Anne and Mark and others can give you advice about this Maggi but going in the other direction, there are two options both used here for bulbs from the NH.
1) The bulbs, which arrive in our late winter/earlyspring, can be put in a chiller and left there until it is time to plant them out, i.e. our late summer/early autumn. This means 6 months out of the ground (or more, depending how long they were out in the north, before sending) and in this time they can lose a great amount of their substance, which is gradually used up to keep the bulbs alive. I find that chilled bulbs usually come up too early, they are so desperate to grow on and though most usually come through this time, many are weak and take two or three years to recover fully, assuming they come up the second year, which they don't, always.
2) Same arrival time, but can be planted out (or potted) right away and they will most likely come up out-of-season but at least are getting good nourishment from the beginning. They will most likely flower out-of-season as well and gradually lose the will to grow according to a northern cycle, and take on a southern one. This too has its problems but over all, I find it the better way because the bulbs aren't weakened during the turn around time.
In a large batch, you will lose some which is why I prefer to import at least 3 of any one kind so that the odds of getting something of each through, are higher.
Having said all that, some bulbs turn around easily, other are difficult. I find crocuses difficult, bulbous irises easy (relatively, even junos) and cyclamen easiest of all. Some bulbs are determined to take three seasons to make up for two, others will try to do in one or two, what they'd otherwise do in two or three. Each genus seems to be a little different. I've not imported narcissus from the northern hemisphere. Weldenia candida sent either north or south, just goes on growing until it get to the right flowering time then proceeds to do that.
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Thanks, Lesley! Can you lend me a few quid?
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Oh sure, why not. Can you think of anyone I can ask?
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Graham,
Wow!! The gold rimmed are glorious, that NTT hybrid is stunning, and there are more I could mention specifically but won't. Fantastic pics. Those apodanthe hybrids are quite striking as well, so I'll look for them at the show this weekend as I think you mentioned there'd be some of them there. SOOOOOOOO many nice flowers you're showing us.
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Hi
There should be some good flowers at the Show.
Sounds like a few people are developing expensive tastes in miniature daffodils. Remember it will be quite a while before some of the flowers you have seen will be commercially available so plenty of time to save up!!
An interesting aside. The NTT early exhibition form can come with up to 6 flowers to a stem. The petals are not too long as to be twisted. Overall it is a superb flower that we have selected out. However, in terms of commercial value it is worth a fraction of the little reverse bicolor. The market will pay for the latest and greatest hybrid but not for a winning selected form of a species. Same thing applies to N. cyclamineus.
A few more photos.
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Thanks for the useful information regarding 'turning around' Lesley !
Very helpful ! :-*
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More advice on 'turning around' - as Lesley says, the bulbs arrive in early spring, and I pot them up in a clay pot straight away (I always plant in a layer of sand within the compost) and they are plunged in a shaded greenhouse, and kept just moist. After a few weeks they come into growth and you can stop going out there every day to look at whether the mortgage you took out was worth it. If you are lucky they may come into flower, so take this opportunity to hand pollinate and get some seed, just in case they take umbrage and die on you.
Keep the plunge moist at all times and give a little extra water in hot weather, and they will probably remain in leaf until new foliage is produced at what would be the normal time up here. After that, hopefully, they will behave as northern natives! Start saving now, and forget any notion of buying 2 or 3 of something, unless you have been lucky in the lottery.
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Great advice, Lesley and Anne, thanks. I would certainly be hand polinating any flowers as a back up, anyway, but I'm a bit doubtful about pollination regarding any of Graham's little gems since there has been talk of sterility being a virtue !?? ??? Maybe I need to contact Graham, expressing my interest in sex! :-[
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And I thought this was a wholesome site! All this talk about sex just because we have thousands of [daffodil] children! Anyway Helen says all the good ones are her crosses!! ;)
Maggie, daffodil fertility is very complex and even more so with miniatures. It is all about diploids, triploids and tetraploids, unreduced gametes, a lot of luck (bit like winning the lottery) and money (sex has price as they say in the movies but our prices are very much determined by rarity and demand for exhibition)! We do a nice line in triandus hybrids but nearly all of them are mules because they are inter-sectional crosses between flowers with different gene numbers. I have been caught--our fine W-YYP (watermelon pink) never set seed for us until last year but one of customers has had a field day in terms of seed harvested by doing back crosses. I did an article a long time ago in the Tasmanian Daffodil Journal that talked about our breeding program. A more modern article that I had written for the RHS was never published-they are more into standards although with Brian Duncan now growing miniatures there has been a slight change but their shows don't rate in terms of miniature quality vis-a-vis the big miniature shows in Australia or the US. This years article in the NZ Daffodil Journal is a must for the really keen miniature daffodil enthusiast.
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Brian Duncan is away tomorrow to NZ so some of you may bump in to him. I assume he is off to a daff show
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:)
The Australasian Daffodil Championships are in New Zealand this weekend. Some of our American friends like Bob Spotts and Kirby Fong will be there as well. One of our local standard growers will be judging there. We don't travel much during hybridising time so we will be at the canberra Show.
Maggie, forgot to say that we are most likely to make a few gems available when we need a new computer or some new big boys toys to make farming easier as I age or to build new galactic headquarters!
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I had an email a couple or so weeks ago from Brian Duncan suggesting he and I might meet somewhere at a daff show. I'm not sure of dates and venues and I still have car problems (haven't got one yet, driving an old bomb of Roger's and it needs large input of prayer to be sure of arrival at destination.) But if there's an opportunity, I'll take it.
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:)
Lesley
David Adams or Peter Ramsay would be able to give you details of where Brian will be visiting in NZ.
Kind regards
Graham
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Graham,
Obviously I have a little in the way of strange tastes then..... in a lot of ways I really like the selected forms ot the species. That said, I like so many of your hybrids as well (that reverse bicolour is stunning!!)
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Is it possible for us to get hold of copies of the article you mentioned, Graham?
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Thanks Graham. I know Dave quite well so I'll phone him tonight.
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Hi
Anne, I will do a revised version after the flowering season has ended and see whether the SRGC want to publish it. You and others who are looking at our photos should let me know what you would like to learn about in terms of breeding miniature daffodils. Of course, you do realise a certain degree of eccentricity is a pre-requisite! 8)
I have attached a few more photos for you. Lesley, I think you liked the miniature with the unusual colour on opening. I had not expected what it has changed into - a tiny 7W-YYP!
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;D ;D ;D
A few more photos for you.
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All lovely Graham!! Beautiful!!!!!
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Hi
Paul, you have the advantage of being able to see some of these things on Saturday.
Kind regards
Graham
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You and others who are looking at our photos should let me know what you would like to learn about in terms of breeding miniature daffodils.
Everything!!! ;D
Well, for a start, are there particular characters that are most often passed on through the seed, or pollen, parent? eg shape from seed parent, colour from pollen?
You mentioned back-crossing - is back-crossing to one of the parents a way to get seeds from a sterile hybrid? Will either parent do?
Apart from the shape and size of the flower and length of stem, what other characters would you prefer one of your daffs to have?
If you really wanted to use the pollen from a plant you thought had virus, would it be safe to use it on a healthy seed parent? If it were the other way around, would you expect the seed from a virused seed parent to be virus-free?
Well, you did ask... :P
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That last pic you posted Graham, the purple one, must be a real thrill. A brand new colour break and shape as well. It will be a world beater and in huge demand ;D
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Hi
Paul, you have the advantage of being able to see some of these things on Saturday.
Kind regards
Graham
Graham,
Oh, and don't I know it!! ;D ;D ;D As you can see I am not exactly unhappy about that situation!!!!! ;)
Lesley,
Rather unusual shape for a daff though. I'm doubting the purists would like it!! LOL
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:o :o
Anne, they won't publish an article that long! What are your hybridising goals? Miniature reverse bicolors, miniature white-pinks, miniature white-orange, miniature orange-orange, miniature split cups, miniature doubles, miniature jonquillas, miniature tazettas, miniature triandus...? If it is all of them you will need a property of about an acre and lots of polystyrene boxes and lots of pots.
I will give you a few pieces of wisdom now. N. cyclamineus is not a dwarfing parent but N. asturiensis is, don't use parents with too long a cup, too much frill and do use the best possible parents.
Stood out didn't it Lesley - that purple daffodil. ;D Now there is a goal for Anne. Purple via the pink side. You could start with some of the small lavendar coloured daffodils. And some suppliers just use Photoshop to achieve much the same result in their catalogues!!
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;D ;D
Maggie
The 6W-YYP seedling looks like one of those below the belt flowers. Interesting parentage too. It is almost identical in size and appearance to our 6Y-YYP seedling except for it being a different colour. The pink is much more intense.
The 6Y-P photos is from our photo library.
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;D ;D ;D
A few more photos for you.
The 7Y-O only has one flower. It is difficult to know if it will have 2 or more. It is a largish miniature. It is also what happens when you grow a lot of daffodils. You have things happen that don't usually happen. N. fernandesii usually selfs but in this instance it was parent to a very nice coloured seedling.
The 7W-W is simply stunning. It is also a fernandesii seedling but I am not sure about the parent-probably N. watieri. The odds of getting such a white (and it opens bright white) are very low.
The unusual coloured little trumpet is probably a little reverse bicolor.
The last two are of my favourite miniature tazetta species.
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Hi
A few more photos for you. Lesley go no further-split cups may be among the photos!!![/glow]
No awards for guessing correctly what cross was made in relation to the N watieri.
Anne, if you have virus the best place for it is in the bin unless you have a vast estate and can separate them. If you have old varieties you may be faced with a difficult decision but virus does not improve the appearance of yellow daffodils.
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:)
Anne, backcrossing is a useful breeding tool with miniature daffodils. You are partly correct in what you say about sterility. I am not a scientist but as I understand it the story is a bit like this. A daffodil may be sterile when crossed with daffodils other one of the parents or grandparents. The fertility of the daffodil when backcrossed is because of unreduced gametes. You don't get full fertility but enough to set some seed. Most miniatures including species miniatures are diploids. Most standard hybrids are tetraploids. There are a whole of triploids that are from crossing diploids with tetraploids. Sterility is often a problem with triploids. Not all species are diploids. Some are tetraploids and N. dubius has something like 38. Different genes counts make breeding difficult and intersectional hybridising is also a challenge. The other thing that can cause difficulties is when the species tend to self (like N. fernandesii). There is a scientific name for this and I am sure Maggie has it a the tip of her tongue.
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I am sure Maggie has it at the tip of her tongue.
Nope, sorry!
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I think you might be referring to apomixis - where a plant by-passes sexual reproduction and produces seeds without any fertilisation, which then result in seedlings that are identical clones of the mother plant.
Peter Brandham at Kew tells me this has recently been found to be happening quite a lot in monocots and is a problem for breeders of daffs, who in the past have put the failure of crosses down to accidental self-fertilisation spoiling crosses, when what was actually happening was apomixis. This was previously well-known in dicots but is now known to also be quite common in monocots.
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Anne, there's a very good article about how triploidy affects daff breeding, by Peter Brandham of Kew, in the RHS Daffs, Snowdrops and Tulips Yearbook 2002-2003. Do you have a copy?
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apomixis
Thanks, Martin.... I was floundering with a soundalike that affects rabbits!
This may help: http://www.apomixis.de/back.htm
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something similar happens with Sorbus hibernica. The ovary needs a pollen grain to start to grow towards the ?ovule. It then rushes ahead and forms a seed before the grain arrives in the ovary
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:)
Hi
Anne, my article will tell you how to avoid the problems associated with triploids. You have seen our shadehouse photos. Not a triploid to be seen!! Ours is a diploid world!! But we do some breeding with triploids and tetraploids and that is where the unreduced gametes come in. Our coloured miniatures are from tetraploids in most cases.
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Graham, it sounds like your article on narcissus breeding could be of great interest to me too. I rely heavily on such writings for guidance in my snowdrop breeding as there's almost nothing known yet about the genetics and breeding patterns of snowdrops (apart from the identification of some hybrids as triploids, which poses serious problems - and no tertraploids to speak of, which causes further problems).
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Thanks, everyone. Problems with virus occur when I buy in bulbs of some old varieties, and they do end up in the bin, but I was wondering if you thought seed or pollen could be safely harvested first.
I've noticed selfing when trying to use N. watieri as a seed parent - whether this is apomixis, or a function of the close proximity of the stigma and the stamens in the tube, I'm not sure. This year I split the tube as soon as the bud started to open and before the anthers dehisced to keep the pollen away from the stigma to see if that would work. It's very frustrating to wait 3 or 4 years to find out all the seedlings are watieri!
Yes, Martin, I do have that booklet - I'd better have another look!
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I couldn't cope with trigonometry at school, either :-\
I've read the article in the link above, and would like to ask, where does cleistogamy fit in with this - if at all?
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Anne, some of us had an exchange of info on virus in pollen and seeds over the last couple of days in the 'Tulip Virus' thread under 'Bulbs General'. I think you'll find some of the answers you're looking for there.
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Sorry, Anne - also meant to say that I try to avoid using pollen from virused bulbs on healthy bulbs just in case. But of course you can use virused bulbs as seed parents and the seeds will most likely be virus free and produce virus-free bulbs. As you'll see from the 'Tulip Virus' thread, it used to be thought that seeds don't carry virus, so always produce virus-free plants and bulbs - but now it seems research has shown that, in some conditions some seeds can carry virus. But with most bulbs that I'm aware of, I think you'll generally get at least mostly virus-free seedlings from seed of plants with virus. It's certainly worth trying.
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:)
Lesley, don't think cleistogamy fits in with daffodils at all.
Cleistogamy describes the trait of certain plants to propagate by using non-opening, self-pollinating flowers. Especially in peanuts, peas, and beans...
If your daffodils don't open then you certainly have a problem but it is a different sort of one to getting them to set seed from a different parent.
Anne, pollinating apodanthe requires all the skill of a surgeon. Hence the very fine German forceps that I use. Dr Reed in the US is an emergency doctor and he uses a fancy pair of forceps. He is very adept at pollinating. He harvests about 50,000 seeds a year. We have quite a few triandus where the pistil is way down the tube so surgery is required to hand pollinate them as well.
I can assure you that after your first 100,000 seeds start to flower, whether a particular cross works or not is not all that significant. Our biggest year was when we harvested well over 50,000 seeds. These days I am comfortable with about 15,000. ;D
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It's very frustrating to wait 3 or 4 years to find out all the seedlings are watieri!
If you dont want them I can give them a good home ;)
I have raised and flowered N watieri from seed but I find it difficult to keep. Do you have any specific tips, its likes/dislikes?
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Hi Tony
Best way to keep it alive is to keep it very dry in summer and grow it in a nice sandy mix so it is well drained. Bit like NTT in this regard. Grows well for us outdoors but then it is hot and dry (what is rain?) here most of the time these days.
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I wasn't connecting cleistogamy to daffs but wondered about in general, if it was a similar process to apomixis
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Mmmmmmm daffodils!!!!! Had a lovely fix of miniature narcissus, plus other larger ones and camellias and other plants today. Some of Graham's stuff is absolutely To Die For!! There is the most adorable miniature form of tenuifolius which is the most perfect hoop petticoat daff but less than a cm across. Truly adorable. Then there were the Narcissus triandrus triandrus hybrids, and the apodanthe hybrids, and the...... all so very yum!!
I have serious issus with envy now. I want one of all of them!! ;D
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Hi
A few photos from the Show.
It is a difficult venue to take good photos at so it may not be until after the Show that it is possible to take good photos of some of the flowers exhibited. I need to retake photos of the Grand Champion bulbocodium and the other nice bicolor bulbocodium from the Show. It is the first Show in Canberra where miniatures have prevailed to win the major trophies. :o :o
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Well, it isn't Leslie, so is it Paul? I've always had my suspicions that he hasn't got 4 legs and white fur.
Lovely daffs by the way!
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Hi
It is Paul and no he is not particularly fluffy. ::)
A few more photos for you. Not of miniatures and not necessarily daffodils. The camellias are quite a sight and as someone who grows quite a few of them they are a truly amazing sight. Some of the major camellia exhibitors travel for 5 or 6 hours by car to the Show.
The colour of the Champion large cup has got to be seen to be believed. A very deep and bright red cup and deep yellow perianth with an orange overcast. :o :o
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Graham
Did You put a peonia amongst the camelias? ::)
Elegans splendour looks like a nice peonia. ::) :o.
Nice to see a show down under with the hings here only to come in a while.
Thanks for sharing and lovly narcisus.
Joakim
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So that's Paul. We could do with another now, nice as the current avatar is.
This is the only show I've come across where FIRST is a blue card and SECOND is red. Usually the other way about?
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Lesley,
We've always bad blue and first and red as second. I didn't realise that others did it the opposite way. Fascinating.
As to changing the avatar to a picture of me ..... I'd rather keep your computer screens from cracking, so it will stay a picture of my dog Elfinraer!! ;D She's WAY cuter than me, that is for sure!! :o
Joakim,
That form of Camellia is called anemone-centred or paeony-centred, depending who you're talking to. You're right though, that particular flower is very reminiscent of a Paeony as it is such a nice form. There are a whole range of Elegans sports in a number of different colours, all with the Paeonia form to them. They also have a distinctly serated leaf in most cases, quite distinct from the majority of other Camellias. If I had more space (a common lament for me) I'd have a few of the Elegans varieties. My favourite is Elegans Champagne which is a champagne colour in a form similar to Graham's pic of Elegans Supreme.
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But Paul, I want a pic for my rogues gallery. I have Otto and Tim and Fermi and a few others there. All comers are welcome :D
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I told you Lesley, I don't want your computer monitor shattering. They're too expensive to replace!! ;D
Just add me to the rogues gallery as an honorary shaggy dog!! ;)
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;D ;D ;D
I think Paul should put up a photo of his winning erythronium!! 8)
A visitor to the Canberra Show would have seen quite a display of miniatures. There was the smallest species bulbocodium (N. tenuifolius), NTT with five florets, N. dubius, N. watieri, N. rupicola, N. wilkommi, N. cyclamineus, N. calcicola, N. jonquilla, N. triandus pulchellus, N. cordubensis, tiny reverse bicolors, tiny triandus hybrids, coloured jonquilla hybrids (7W-YYP and 7Y-R), jonquilla hybrids with different coloured florets, coloured cyclamineus hybrids including a miniature 6W-YYP, apodanthe hybrids, tiny tazetta species (N. pachybolbus, N. tazetta ssp. tazetta and N. papyraceus) and superb bulbocodium hybrids. A veritable feast of delights for the miniature daffodil enthusiast. ;D ;D
Joakim, the reticulata hybrid camellias in the photos are the size of dinner plates. We grow a number of reticulata hybrids that produce enormous flowers. We also grow tree peonies and the difference is that a camellia reticulata hybrid does grow into a small tree and it quite sight to see a small tree covered in huge flowers.
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Hi
And a few more photos.
Lesley someone entered one for you. It is the one called Foursome!! Shows that some daffodil exhibitors have a sense of humour. I thought the petal coverage was magnificient. I wonder whether it is stable.
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Graham,
I'm thrilled with the Erythronium myself, but embarrassed to have it shown here. Having see the pics of the alpine shows they have in the UK my plant is a daggy sorry individual, something that they would never in a million years show over there. I'm jealous as anything of how they grow their plants for shows over there. ::) I wish I could do as well. <sigh>
As I said to you over the weekend.... I just love your littlies at the show. So glad to be able to see them in person as, despite teh photos being excellent they just don't show how truly intricate they are. That tiny tenuifolius is just SO small. I do have to admit that the apodanthe hybrids were pretty speccy as well!! But then, so were so many of your other ones!! ;D
And I will have to admit.... I quite like Foursome. I didn't actually notice it on the show bench or I would have had a closer look at it. It has such a different symmetry to it. Then again, I've always liked "different" flowers so it probably appeals to me for that alone!! ;)
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Paul
Don't underrate yourself. The climate is more challenging here.
However, I am also impressed with the pot exhibits that I have seen at alpine garden shows in the UK.
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Graham,
Nice pic of the little Gladiolus uysiae, particularly in that light. It opened another flower after I entered it (Yep, it's another one of mine) on Saturday morning I think, as I only recall two being out when I put it on the table. It has the most wonderful perfume, reminiscent of a cross between Boronia and Violets. It can easily be detected a couple of metres away on a still day. It and G. alatus are favourites of mine for their flower shape and delicacy, but the uysiae perfume is a real bonus!!
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OOh! Scented Glads! I MUST get into Glad seed!
Graham is quite right, Paul, don't sell yourself short, it is great to be able to have the woodsey plants doing so well in your climate... your Ery. is a fine potful.
Wish I could inspect ... and sniff... all those litte daffs.... my nose is twitching in anticipation!
Pity that they couldn't be shown with a darker background high behind them to make them easily seen against the others... I suppose it would be tricky to have such tall shelves to the benches to acheive that and also take up a lot more room... but it would be nice!
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Maggie, you can smell our daffodils from about 50 metres away at the moment. Thousands of triandus and jonquilla hybrids and thousands of species flowering at the moment. Just transporting them can be close to overwhelming. Probably deadly if you suffer from asthma, hayfever or an allergy.
The Show venue is difficult for photos because of the lighting. I took the second set of photos this morning in better light conditions than yesterday afternoon. Tall backgrounds is just too expensive and difficult for the Horticultural Society. They own all the tables and staging and even that represents a lot of money. I had my blue background with me but I would have needed an assistant to help me. Unfortunately my minder (my rather large 15 year old son who was contracted to assist with putting out the daffodils for the show) was not with me.
There appears to be lots of lurkers looking at the postings. I am assuming they are enjoying the photos. I have a new 2G flash card and a lot of batteries so I am able to take quite a few photos.
Joakim, a few photos from our photo archives for you.
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Lurking and enjoying! :D
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;D ;D ;D
I think Paul should put up a photo of his winning erythronium!! 8)
Nice effort for someone who is, after all, a shaggy dog :)
I quite like the Foursome Graham, so long as I can think of it as something other than a daffodil.
You mentioned tiny species. What can you tell me about N. gaditanus v. minutaeflorus, of which I have 2 seedlings, hopefully to flower next year? Certainly the foliage is tiny, less than N. hedraeanthus and prostrate.
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Cripes! gaditanus has tiny flowers to start with!
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Lesley, I have recently received seed of N. gaditanus but I am yet to flower it. N. gaditanus is the smallest of the jonquil species so if you have a minute form it has got to be the smallest of the small. Bit like our N. assoanus ssp. minutus I suspect but even smaller. There are miniature forms of quite a few species. We have miniature forms of some of the tazetta species. We also have a dwarf form of N. nevadensis. There is a bit of controversy over our dwarf floriferous form of N. calcicola but it has far too many flowers to be N. scaberulus and is larger than N. scaberulus. We try and collect as many forms of species as we can. We do it all by seed because of the quarantine restrictions. We have a wish list and N. gaditanus is still on it.
Make sure you pollinate it if it flowers for you as it is almost certainly rare and hard to obtain unless you know the right person. At this point I have to admit that I am green with envy (something about the compulsive collector coming out here). Keep the seed and I will swap you for another rare species!
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When it flowers I shall certainly cross pollinate the two seedlings and if there's any seed, you shall have it. Of course I don't know the original source as it was from NZAGS about 3 years ago. There were only the two seeds so I suppose I'm lucky they both came up.
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A brief diversion. Someone asked about daffodils for the garden. We have a few clumps in our 'umble garden in suburban Canberra so I will show you some. I will also show you a few of our camellias. Some are quite tall and they have lots of huge flowers on them at this time of the year. We are so busy with our daffodils that we don't show our camellias. However, our garden is on the local walking trail at this time of the year.
I am not sure you would want to go out and buy enough bulbs to establish a clump the size of ours. I think I twin scaled some of these a long time ago.
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A few more photos of our garden daffodils for you. Close-ups this time. Lesley do not go any further as this post will contain a photo of a split cup daffodil!
Lovely clumps of these will certainly attract plenty of attention but I don't think it would be a cheap option!!
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Ok enough of the boring photos of our garden. (Had someone indicated that our garden was mildly interesting I might have posted a few more photos but...) So a few more daffodil photos. The triandus hybrid with 5 florets is another hybridising success. So is the 7Y-Y miniature with superb petal coverage.
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Hi
A few more photos.
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Didn't give us too much time to comment on your garden, did you, Graham? :-X
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Maggie, I did say it was a brief diversion!! ;D
I will divert for one more photo but it is not of our garden but of Trillium rivale that is liking the new shade house. Unfortunately the pot has some feral N. cyclamineus in it--I need to get them out of the pot.
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Thanks Graham and Paul for the info about the camelias.
Is camelia of the retic type more frost hardy?
I am impressed with the size of the flowers that is so hard to tell from a picture.
Regarding the size of the camelias they will be big with time my father-in-law has some lovly camelia trees that are really big with very nice flowers but "only 6-9 cm" across.
Graham I had to work yesterday so I could not comment on Your lovely garden picture.
That is really nice tosee them in their "right environment" as I think of them. :) not to say that they do not belong in a show just that it is so great to see them in a garden. Maybe it is too great ::) :o
Just a question about the poeticus "champion" what made it champion? Size of flower slight tint of pink or yellow in the white or what. I can only see these things when shown by a master. I like poeticus and we have a lot in Hungary but I am not traind to see what mkes a good narcissus. :-[
Thanks again for teaching me and all the others as well as showing these hard core pics. 8) ;D
Joakim
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Nice, Graham. I particularly like the obesus clone (just perfect form to it, isn't it?) and the assoanus ssp minutus. I like a number of others, but I'm not going to bore people with the whole list! ;D
OK, decided I must also comment on the triandrus and the two florets to a stem. Very nice!!
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here are the pics of the camelia
They are called "cameleira" in most part of Portugal but some places call them "japoniera" of the latter name.
This pics do not show well how big the trees are. It is four of them but I only show one. They have a mix of pink and withe flowers as well as pink-and-white flowers if You know what I meen.
These are from March so most of the flowers were gone.
Joakim
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Got to run--lots of hybridising to do with pollen from the Show flowers. Got to try and develop some miniature split cups for Lesley!! ::) What I do need to do is work on breeding some tiny Division 2 and 3 hybrids since I am somewhat bereft of these.
I will reply to some of the questions this evening in all probability. Might even post some more garden photo diversions if there is any interest!!
Joakim does that mean you have days off?? No such luxury here. Day job then daffodils! But it is rewarding when you see [lots of] good seedlings flower for the first time.
I have to find where the ducks are nesting so I don't mow any eggs!! Might have some ducklings soon I suspect. Lots of activity with the birds of late but then it is spring!! [Better watch it or this posting will get X rated with all this talk of breeding!!
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Tell me about the giant N. bulbocodium please Graham. I have one which I thought was a seedling from N. b. obesus but surely can't be. It has a very large bright golden cup and grows to 35cms high, almost too big for the rock garden but a great clump, very showy. My "ordinary" obesus has a fatter, wider cup of the same colour but stems of only 3-4 cms on almost prostrate, snaky foliage. The big one flowers right through the winter but obesus is still a couple of weeks away.
And please, don't feel a need to develop split cups on my account. :D
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Joakim, reticulata hybrids appear to survive drought, heat and severe cold better than japonica hybrids but there are some extremely hardy japonica cultivars as well. Reticulatas come from Yunnan province in China where it is pretty cold in winter and pretty hot in summer. some of the modern cultivars of both reticulata hybrids and japonica hybrids are very beautiful. They would all grow well for you in Portugal. The largest japonica hybrids, such as Guilio Nuccio, are about the same size as a very large reticulata hybrid flower. They are about the size of a dinner plate when well grown. But like all plants they come in all shapes and sizes. Not sure but we would have about 40 or 50 in our suburban garden.
In relation to what is or is not a good show flower, I could drive you mad about good form being a flower that has nice overlapping perianth, crystalline white perianth, clear yellow and red cup that is perfectly circular etc. but if you are not going to exhibit buy and grow what looks appealing to you. Women daffodil growers have a preference for white, white-pinks and reverse bicolors while male growers prefer yellows and yellow-reds that are strong and bold.
Our garden has white-pink doubles and other white-pinks because it is a moist garden compared to the farm . Some American and British bred daffodils prefer the conditions on offer in our home garden.
We get a lot of species seed and occasionally you get something good. Only two bulbs survived and one is a giant one at around 5cm in diameter and a stem that is very thick and strong. We have quite a few giant seedlings of our own breeding but getting big stems is an issue. A lot of them would benefit from stronger stems.
There is a lot of variability in the height and size of species daffodils. We have miniature, intermediate and giant forms of N. triandus triandus. There is a giant form of N. b. citrinus. We have seed of it but I don't know how it is going. I need to get some more and put it into the shadehouse as I think it likes it damp. And that is the other thing--if the particular bulb is from a wet area then it may well be a much bigger form than one from a rocky outcrop in the mountains. Are you sure about 35cm? I only ask because that makes it bigger than a lot of our standards. But then again we are not very good at breeding standards. ::) If it flowers over winter then it may just be an early flowering form. Equally it could be a form of bulbocodium conspicuus but it is not usually a giant.
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Your garden looks lovely - is this your responsibility or Helen's?
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Anne, now that is a leading question if ever there was one.
Helen is responsible for ongoing maintenance simply because I am responsible for the farm (since there is only me and I have limited time, we are fairly mechanised these days). There is very little lawn to mow. We did a lot of the work to create it. I moved the soil and laid the path. We had stonemasons do the walls. The plants are a combined choice although Helen sneaks plants in occasionally. There are lots of azaleas, camellias, Japanese maples, tree peonies and alpines. Helen used to have quite a few dwarf rhododendrons but most have died in the drought. The alpines were mostly raised from seed. We used to have lots of pots in the backyard but Helen planted quite a few out in the garden. There are no pots in the backyard now that we have the shade house at the farm. ;D
I do it hard out at the farm as our Galactic Headquarters is a farm shed (Shed No. 1)! We hope to build a new house at the farm soon and move there. It is more inner than our suburban home and is on the road where most of Canberra's larger plant nurseries are located. If I am out of favour I will have Shed No 1 to retreat to with all its creature comforts!! 8) My biggest problem is that the Big Baby (aka Scott, our youngest son) gets into the pantry and refrigerator. >:(
I have attached some photos of the flowers we exhibited at the recent show. Photos were taken in better lighting conditions at Galactic Headquarters.
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Lovely babies, Graham, and liking the garden too. Have to ask, though, terminally nosy... what's your Day job?
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Hi
Maggie the answer is:
Servant of the Crown with an interest in the colour purple and words!
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Aha! So you are Oprah Winfrey's Australian lawyer!! ???
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Hi
Maggie, really!!Government lawyer who drafts laws.
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All gorgeous! A day job, a farm (animals or just daffs?), a garden - that's serious time management!
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The colour purple threw me-I would have suggested a Bishop ;D
Graham, I have enjoyed this thread immensely and I have learned a great deal from it
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The colour purple
... think The Color Purple.... film.... Oprah Winfrey... litigious (spelling??) loads of cash.... I stilll think it might be a job worth applying for, Graham!! ::)
I am really enjoying all these little daffs but I think I am firming up an opinion.... I never met a triandrus type I don't adore! :-* Little sweeties, every one.
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The colour purple
... think The Color Purple.... film.... Oprah Winfrey... litigious (spelling??) loads of cash.... I stilll think it might be a job worth applying for, Graham!! ::)
I am really enjoying all these little daffs but I think I am firming up an opinion.... I never met a triandrus type I don't adore! :-* Little sweeties, every one.
I failed to see the clue. Don't go the cinema much these days as I invariably fall asleep, went to the theatre last Saturday to see 'The History Boys' and slept through a good part of that too. Must be getting old!
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Cinema... visit....good grief, I don't do any of that... however, I am an avid reader of any Film and theatre reviews I can find ;)
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Anne, the serious time management issue for me at the moment is trying to project management the various bits of building work and obtaining the necessary development approvals. A lot less miniatures flowered than normal because we didn't have time to weed them and because of the ongoing drought. The standards are also struggling because of the drought. That said I didn't have time to pollinate any more than I have. We need the house to provide water for the plants out at the farm.
The serious time management for Helen is all the paperwork that has to be done.
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Hi
Maggie the answer is:
Servant of the Crown with an interest in the colour purple and words!
You mean you're the one who makes up all those lies that Howard tells? A spin doctor? (Have to protect my reputation as a sledger here) ;D
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A brief respite from miniature daffodils and the inquisition!! :o
David, the colour for law graduates at the ANU is purple. It may differ at other universities.
David, I hope you have not learnt the art of sledging from this thread!! :o
Lesley, David Adams has queried the utility of micro minis in another forum. He doesn't think anybody other than specialist daffodil growers would be interested in such small flowers and even then it is for their novelty value. I have seen some pretty small alpine plants in pots and troughs so I am far from convinced. I am yet to flower anything as small as our smallest N. tenuifolius in terms of flower size and height.
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David, I hope you have not learnt the art of sledging from this thread!! :o
Graham, no problems, Yorkshiremen can't be taught to sledge, it's bred in them that's what makes us God's gift to cricket ;D BTW you have a magnificant garden.
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Dave is WRONG,WRONG,WRONG. The more micro the minis the better so far as alpine gardeners are concerned. And I'll bet there are more alpine/rock gardeners in the world than there are specialist daffodil growers, so WE WIN. I have nearly 100 troughs in my garden, some very small and I like to have a couple of bulbs in each as well as herbaceous stuff. Your tiny micros would be perfect for the troughs, as well as for pots for pleasure and alpine shows. But we don't have anything as small as yours. Boo Hoo. :'( :'( :'(
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David Adams has queried the utility of micro minis in another forum. He doesn't think anybody other than specialist daffodil growers would be interested in such small flowers and even then it is for their novelty value. I have seen some pretty small alpine plants in pots and troughs so I am far from convinced.
I agree with you, Graham, there must be a vast market for the littlest daffs... why else would we all be so fixated on alpines, which, by and large, are so small? ::) Of course it is not just novelty value... it would be great to have a wider range of minis that might be more amenable to cultivation than the species for the alpine and rock garden community. More strength to your hybridising brush, I say!
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Graham, if you sell mainly to daff growers, maybe you could change your focus and offer mainly to alpine gardeners. You'd have a huge export market and I can think of many Aussies in Vic and Tas who'd love them.
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The exhibiton growers will pay huge money, especially in the USA, though, could we stingy bunch compare with that? Well, no, but we'd buy all the ones Graham doesn't think are worth anything, for something!! ;D
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Lesley you are correct!
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Well of course Mark. As always. ;D I'm a woman.
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;D ;D
Maggie is only partly right as some of our premium miniature bulbs are in the UK and have been for a few years but for exhibition and breeding purposes. The US is the main source of demand for miniatures and it was this demand that got us going in the first place. It is also why we keep on developing new and better varieties. Our customers have to have something new to exhibit. From my own experiences exhibition daffodils can be pricey in the UK. We imported some exhibition bulbs from Clive Postles and Brian Duncan a few years ago and they were about 50 pounds then.
The main problem in relation to what you describe as our rejects is the quarantine charges and the cost of turning them around. That is a problem even in relation to sending them to New Zealand.
David, never thought as myself as a Bishop. Somewhere earlier in the thread I mentioned that my grandfather came to Australia from NZ. He was from an early pioneer family of non-conformists (ie Methodists) and he married a young lady from an involuntary pioneering Sydney family that was also non-conformists. My cousin is a retired Minister and his son is a Minister in Canberra.
A few more photos of things that are out in the garden at the moment. Lots to come out yet.
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I don't want to put pressure on you Graham, and start begging, but it may be worth a mention that daffs into NZ shouldn't be a problem. They are permitted as dormant bulbs with no quarantine, and we would only need to know the approx. breeding (triandrus x bulbocodium, as an example). No problems turning them around either :D. They do need inspecion and phyto before leaving Oz but any costs would be borne by importer anyway. Maybe worth thinking about sometime.
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The end of the season is in sight. Some very nice jonquilla and triandus seedlings in flower at the moment. I forgot to take a photo of the 5W-W with six florets to the stem.
So here are some of todays photos.
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I have been (silently :-[) admiring all your wonderful daffodils, Graham. They are an absolute delight!
Chloë
(in daffodil country)
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Chloe, while we grow lots of daffodils we have not been to neither Spain nor Portugal to see them in the wild. Of course our daffodils would grow well in your country unless you were right by the sea with high humidity.
Our flowering period for cyclamineus hybrids is fairly long these days. The last of them will flower this week.
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That first one is especially nice.
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Anne, photos can be misleading. ;) The description of 6W-P tells the story. The photo is of a flower that changes from 6W-Y to 6W-P. It is a late flowering dwarf 6W-P. It has too much frill so the petals tend to get knicked. It is not therefore an exhibition flower or up to the standard that I would release it. However, it is quite dwarf in height so it comes in handy for breeding 6W-P miniatures. However, I am making breeding harder for myself by using a 6W-P with a long trumpet with too much frill! It would be excellent for alpine gardeners but never likely to be released. More photos in next posting.
Chloe, I suspect that there are more lurkers out there than you. Do you grow daffodils in your garden Chloe?
I am attaching photos of a host of angels for you Chloe!! Some are even crying! ;D Chloe if you are not able to work out my reference to angels I am sure one of the clever lurkers, or failing that Maggie, can explain the play on words.
Lesley only angels with this posting so no split cups. :o
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Hi
A few more angels and a few other photos including a split cup (is it only a bit of scalloping?) for Lesley so she doesn't feel left out!! 8)
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It's 3am Monday. If Edward Longshanks hammered the Scots, it's nothing to what the All Blacks are now about to do.
(Oh, Lord, I hope I don't live to regret that statement). ;D
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Well, the ABs won but they didn't win well and the Scots played with great courage given the AB's reputation. No massacre. I was very disappointed that the ABs were in washy grey and black uniforms instead of their usual all black. On screen it was almost impossible to tell which man was in which team, especially at the times of close play. I hope they get that sorted.
Back to the daffodils :)
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Chloe, I suspect that there are more lurkers out there than you. Do you grow daffodils in your garden Chloe?
I am attaching photos of a host of angels for you Chloe!! Some are even crying! ;D Chloe if you are not able to work out my reference to angels I am sure one of the clever lurkers, or failing that Maggie, can explain the play on words.
Lesley only angels with this posting so no split cups. :o[/color]
I confess that my first reaction was angels => sexless => infertile ... :D
Chloë
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Chloe, the common name for Narcissus triandus triandus is Angel's Tears. Nothing to do with sex at all!! :-[
Lesley can you direct me to the MAF requirements for phytosanitary certificates for imports of narcissus into New Zealand please. Not sure why you are worrying about the AB's at the moment. They only have an off-day in the knock out phase!! ::)
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Ah, Lesley, if only you had been wrong! 40- nil.. yes, that's a hammering, all right. I would say for the Scots that they still played quite well in defence or the score would have been even higher. The All Blacks, or, as was the case last night, "some black and quite a bit of grey", got a bit careless in the second half, though not enough to really help us! Can't believe that anyone thought it was a good idea to let the teams play in such similar strips.....too confusing for my eyes, at least... though it got easier when Ian recommended that I assume that any attacking play was from an All Black!!
At least we can enjoy the wee daffs from OZ.
By the way, I don't mind a bit of scalloping, Graham ::)
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Maggie, I had you down as a lover of big bold brassy splits and a real angel who would care for my rejects!!
BTW we had our in-growth inspection by AQIS today. The inspector liked the angels.
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Well what is NOT to love about those angels? I will gladly give a loving home to any of your fallen angels, Graham! As to the big bold and brassy, that sounds more like me than the daffs I favour!!
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Graham, here are two addresses for you. The first is our Biosecurity Index which lists all the plants we are allowed to import, and - by omission - all the others, which we're not.
www1.maf.govt.nz/cgi-bin/bioindex/bioindex.pl
Note the 1 after the www. I don't know of any other web address that includes a number after the www. When you go to that, you enter the plant you want to find out about, then search. It's much easier just to list the genus name as if you enter species as well, you'll get yes or no for that one species, but if you enter just the genus you'll get a list of every permitted species.
This next address is the standards (conditions) for importing to NZ. You'll notice in the bio index L1 and L2. L1 is import without quarantine (there are other conditions though) and L2, must be quarantined. The document 155-02-06 is a very long PDF doc and takes ages to down load. It's about 360 pages long so will keep you in bedtime reading for weeks to come. Much however, is duplicated so just scroll down to Narcissus and read that.
www.biosecurity.govt.nz/imports/plants/standards/155-02-06.pdf
Hope this helps.
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I don't know why the first address doesn't appear as a click-on link. Did it just the same as the second.
In short, bulbs not to be quarantined must be subject to in growth inspection prior to import (you've just done that), cleaned, dormant bulbs inspected immediately prior to import (export from you) and I think they have to be dipped as well, can't remember right now but it will say. The Phyto has to be endorsed by inspector with various things mainly that they are grown in areas known to free from this, that and the other. The wording has to be EXACTLY as in the standard. And every different bulb has to be listed on the phyto. Marcus forgot a couple last summer so they were destroyed on arrival with our inspector here.
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Time to lift the bar to renew the interest of those visiting this thread.
Bit for everyone in this lot and subsequent postings.
I don't usually post photos of other growers daffodils (and if I do they are usually the seedlings of Rod Barwick - the pre-eminent left field hybridiser). My exception is the most stunning intermediate American cherry pink available - Brooke Ager. My bulb was sent to me by my good friend Dr John Reed. It is admired by me because it likes our Canberra conditions. It flowers when other imported bulbs don't. Luc, they would make a magnificent clump but you will need to win the lottery!!
For Chloe there are more angels.
For Maggie there are waifs and just a little bit of scalloping.
Some exquisite miniatures for Leslie who is to be thanked for her assistance in relation to quarantine matters. However, Leslie be warned there will be some genuine splits even though one is subtle in colour.
Some subtle splits for Joakim and Luc (one of them is used by us for clumping in our home garden). For Joakim there is also a poeticus hybrid.
For Anne, I will post a photo of the dwarf 6W-P as it gradually changes from yellow to pink.
There is a bit of colour for Martin.
And for lovers of bulbocodiums there are some real treats.
And who said the end of the season is boring.
Let the show begin.
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;D ;D ;D
And the show continues.
More crying Angels for Chloe.
And more bulbocodiums.
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A few more photos.
Warning: Lesley there are huge numbers of splits in these photos!!
That is it folks for the daffodil show. I hope you have enjoyed it.
I also have a few garden photos to post.
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Chloe, the common name for Narcissus triandus triandus is Angel's Tears. Nothing to do with sex at all!!
As I recall, the story used to go that when Narcissus triandrus was first discovered, the plant hunters involved were accompanied by a local boy called Angelo who (for some reason I can't recall) burst into tears at some point during or just after the dicovery. So the pet name 'Angelo's Tears' was given to the at that time un-named flowers, and that this later became, as it was passed around verbally, 'Angel's Tears'.
Not sure if that story was ever debunked, but it was commonly referred to by the likes of E.A. Bowles and E.B. Anderson in their writings.
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???
Ok people have been looking. How about just a little bit of feedback. Do you like them or hate them or you couldn't care less?
A few garden photos follow.
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Hi
Chloe, Martin has kindly filled in the story about Narcissus Triandus Triandus for you and all the other readers (I won't be unkind enough to refer to them as "Lurkers").
I am quite excited about flowering our first miniature poeticus. The seed was kindly sent to us by Suzy Wert in the US. It will open the way up for a new range of late flowering miniatures eventually. ;D ;D
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Feedback, eh? Okay, here we go: I cannot understand why the colour of the "pink" daffs is called pink... seems to me to be a rich coral in the best forms...not MY idea of pink, at all!
Why do you use that blue background for your photos, it is not doing too many favours to the colour of the flowers, daffs and others? This has benn mentioned a few times to me in discussion of the pix. It may be a daffodill growing convention but I would think that your little ( or weven large) gems could be shown to much better advantage. In my opinion, there are lots of plus points for a good old 18% grey background... neutral and universally flattering. Black can be striking if going for a more "arty" effect, but, for straight recording and showing flowers to their greatest advantage, I'd go grey!
You're going to say you wish you hadn't asked, now, aren't you? ::)
The thought of miniature poeticus is very exciting, good luck with that project.
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I was also just going to say (when Maggi beat me to it) that the idea of miniature poeticus is very exciting. I'd love a few pots full of those!!
I'd also agree with Maggi that some of the pics might look better with a grey or black background. With some flowers, the blue seems to make the petals look a bit thin and transparent (is that an optical illusion caused by the blue background?), while a grey or a black I would thin k might make them look more substantial.
Apart from that, I've absolutely loved seeing your narcissus season unfolding. Many thanks.
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Graham,
Fantastic photos as always. Absolutely loving the triandrus hybrids, NTT and species pics you're posting. The Frits look great..... they're doing better than many of mine this year. The early warmth in spring last year in my yard affected a lot of things by shifting them to dormancy earlier and therefore not as many flowering. Crocus, Frits and Erythroniums in pots all affected but mostly fine in the garden. Really enjoying all your daff pics as I have mentioned before. Interesting to see the late bulbocodiums..... I have more still coming through at the moment, plus reflowering of some that finished a month ago. Not sure exactly why, but I don't mind in the slightest!! ;D
Keep em coming!! Please show the miniature poeticus when open.
Actually, very much admiring the Scilla vernalis too. Haven't come across that one before, and by the look of it must look out for it in the future. Love that pale colour!
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Paul, this is interesting:
the late bulbocodiums..... I have more still coming through at the moment, plus reflowering of some that finished a month ago. Not sure exactly why, but I don't mind in the slightest!!
No, I wouldn't mind either, but the interesting bit is why are they doing this? Do you think that perhap these "late" flowers are from younger bulbs which have taken that bit longer to get themselves in gear? Might they be from young bulbs. from seedlings rather than veg. increase which are adapting to a later season? Keep an eye on them and see what happens next year... ???
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Maggi,
Nope, they're from the main bulbs, not from satellites or seedlings. I can particularly note this as a couple that are flowering are bulbs given to me by a friend this year, so there can't be secondary bulbs in the pot when I only started with one or two of them, planted so they're obvious as to what is where. The old stems are still there, with a new bud coming up beside them. Even 'Fyno', which is an autumn flowerer has sent up flowers recently which have only just finished. Then there are things like serotinus which haven't even started yet in the first place!!
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This is why bulbs are SO fascinating, isn't it? I nkow similar things happen with other plants, witness rhodos with "extra" out of season blooms and the Tree paeony I saw at my chum's house last week with quite a few flowers on, but with bulbs the question of whether flowers are extra, late or early is just more taxing, somehow! ::) :-\
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Graham,
I'd like a clump of just about anything your showing here !
The lottery tickets have already been ordered ! ;D
I'll keep you informed.
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:o
Hi
Maggie, I am not into grey or black backgrounds. Black is the English way of doing it and I simply don't like it (we did a lot of test photos a few years ago and I went with the colour that I liked the outcome with the most). I won't be changing the way I do things (if you want an article it will have photos with blue backgrounds cause that is how I do things and if you don't want to publish it so be it-need a smilely for a grumpy eccentric hybridiser to go here). I use a background for the miniatures because it helps get the flowers in focus. You would see very few photos if I did not do it the way I do it. Most of the flowers are in the field or in their pots or boxes. Light and focussing are big issues. The light here is much brighter than your summer light let alone your winter light (that may explain your grey-black preferences!! You need a smiley with a tongue poking in and out for these sort of occasions!!) The only flowers that are picked are the Show flowers. I don't happen to like daffodil photos that are taken with a flash nor do I like touching up the colour in any way. On my computer the colour is fairly true. Some people won't see the true colour because they might have a CRT that is on the way out or a machine that is not as good as the one we use but that is outside of my control. The really small ones stretch my camera to the extreme. I am not sure when I will be upgrading as I have a new house to build in the near future. I don't often get a second chance to take photos a second time. I take the photos while I am hybridising. The watieri are now split in two and pollinated. The Brooke Ager has no anthers. The poeticus hybrids have had the pollen removed so I could hybridise them without fear of selfing them. And so on. I don't spend a lot of time taking the photos because it is not the main game for me. The photos have a role to play in relation to our hybridising and as a record of flowering times but the important thing is hybridising. I suspect that those who have made the comments are not aware how much hybridising work is involved vis-a-vis taking photos and posting them here when you have hundreds of thousands of bulbs to work with. Out of interest are any of the people who have spoken to you professional hybridisers, gifted amateur hybridisers or are they people who are more into photography than breeding? When it comes seed harvest time I would like to harvest around 25,000 seeds. Photos don't grow!!
Martin, the transparency is an issue if you use black, grey or blue and is even worse if you use a flash set-up. Some flowers do have fairly transparent petals. This is accentuated when the conditions are hot and dry like they are in Canberra at the moment. It leads to flowers that lack substance and texture. :( In layman's terminology, they won't last long as cut flowers!
In relation to colour, everything is done according to the RHS colour chart. I have flowers that look white but are white-yellow when you use the RHS colour chart. I will spend a lot of time producing flowers that are truly white according to the RHS colour chart! Interestingly, some hybridisers have produced white-red flowers from the pink side rather than from the red side. If you don't understand what I am talking about then it is a case of too much information of a specialist kind that I have not been going into here. In relation to colour, light is very important. A pink here is a different colour to the same flower when it is grown in the UK, the US, Tasmania or New Zealand. One of our friends has registered a flower as being all yellow but here it is yellow petals with an orange trumpet. There is a big issue with some of the UK flowers that are 2Y-R because they burn in the open garden here. They may be sun-fast in the UK but not in our light conditions. The colours you see from my photos will not be the same as photos of daffodils taken in most other places. The closest light conditions to ours will be in Spain or California.
The significance of the miniature poeticus is not only in relation to breeding miniature poeticus but into breeding miniatures with colour. It will allow us to develop miniature division 2 and 3 flowers that carry us into October. I may also be able to use them to increase the range of miniatures that flower earlier by using pollen from earlier in the season on them although poeticus are very powerful genetically for lateness of flowering. Once again probably a case of my giving too much information.
For those intrigued about the mobile pollen I will explain briefly. We exhibit a reasonable quantity of flowers at the Canberra Show. Most of the miniatures are fertile. The flowers are refrigerated both before and after the show. This allows me to do crosses using pollen from flowers that actually flowered up to 6 weeks ago. This enables me to produce flowers that I would not otherwise be able to do.
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::)
Martin, the Americans already have miniature poeticus and have had them for some time. Some are to die for I can assure you. Some of the miniatures were discovered at an old house site (they are known as Weston 1-20 from recollection) but the best have been bred by Leone Lowe. One of her is a 2W-R that has got to be seen to be believed. I don't often get a case of the wants in relation to other peoples daffodils but I do in relation to it. Our quarantine laws make it difficult to bring them in so I have done the next best thing which is to bring in seed that should allow me to breed miniature poeticus. I doubt whether there would be any in the UK. However, my fellow hybridiser Brian Duncan has some miniature wild forms which he is using for hybridising. I might also be growing some miniature wild forms. ;D
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Given the time that my comparatively small scale (just a few hundred or maybe a thousand or so seeds a year) galanthus breeding takes up, I can really appreciate that you find time to take lots of photos too - I never do!
Transparency in petals can be an issue in galanthus too. Often a cultivar will look okay in the garden but when closely examined or photographed will prove to have very thin petals. And of course that means they can go over very quickly. Not a trait you' d want to breed in to future cultivars - yet a surprising number of old established cultivars are decidedly thin petalled. Thick susbtantial petals is something I always look for as breeding potential.
I really do envy you the extensive knowledge about narissus breeding and genetics. I have no idea yet what snowdrops are strong carriers genetically of this or that characteristic. Still fumbling around in the dark here, which I'm sure will lead to a lot of disappointments before I or anyone else starts to get a useful handle on breeding traits.
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;D
Martin, the flowers most likely to have transparency issues are flowers with white petals. The N. watieri don't have a lot of substance at the moment.
We do breed for substance and texture with our various breeding programs. Good Friend has excellent substance and texture for a miniature. I posted a photo of a 5W-W with petal coverage that is unbelievably good. That flower also has excellent substance and texture. We have the ability to breed increased substance and texture into our flowers but it is a long and time consuming process. The minimum time for a generation is 3 years with miniatures. Bit of a bummer if it is one of the miniatures where a generation is 10 years.
My knowledge has increased. Knew very little when I started (I am lawyer/ accountant by training not a scientist). We do have the advantage of numbers because at the end of the day it is a numbers game. If you do enough crosses chances are you will get something good!! While it is not a miniature I am really happy with the jonquilla hybrid with 3 florets to the stem. However, the miniature 5W-W with 6 florets to the stem is a hybridisers delight.
Luc, I don't think you could buy a Brooke Ager even if you wanted to. There is a subterranean trade in some bulbs and that is how you come by them and Brooke Ager one such bulb. It is a hybridisers dream and those that have don't often part with it. We have quite a few intermediates because we are bad standard hybridisers but they come in handy for breeding. I posted a photo of an intermediate 1W-P that is to die for a couple of posts ago. It is a perfect exhibition bloom and flowers a little earlier so it is more useful to an exhibitor. Everything has a price and the very best exhibition bulbs cost around 100-120 UK pounds a bulb (and all you get is a single round if it is really rare). I had a really nice round intermediate 11W-P but I think I have lost it in the drought. :( :(
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You did ASK for feedback, Graham :P
I am sure we all realise just how big a task you have on your hands with hybridising these little jewels; my comment was about photographic results and while my number of million-plus-daff-hybridiser chums is pretty small, I have many fine photographer chums ! Your choice is, of course, just that, YOUR choice, I merely made a comment. :-*
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For Anne, I will post a photo of the dwarf 6W-P
Did I miss this??? ???
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I like that '5W-W with petal coverage' as well :)
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;D ;D
Maggie, your photographic friends probably have plenty of time to compose their photos. They are also probably primarily photographers not large scale hybridisers. Many hybridisers don't even take the photos we do so the only way you see their flowers is by visiting them or going to a show where their flowers are on display. I don't mind comments but I do prefer them to be in their proper considered context (its the lawyer in me). If my main concern was photography you woundn't have any flowers to see because I would not have time to grow the daffodils. I do care about getting reasonable results for my minimal efforts and I keenly read articles on daffodil photography by the guru of daffodil photography and top daffodil exhibitor Kirby Fong (the majority of photos on daffseek are from his collection). He uses far more sophisticated techniques and far better camera equipment but he could not be described as taking field photos of miniatures in strong light conditions. The other big difference is the time taken for the photos. He takes plenty of time over his photos and is rewarded for doing so. I do intend upgrading my equipment but as it is not the main game it is not a high priority at this point in time.
Anne, mea culpa.
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Graham, re. the galanthus breeding, it can be quite embarrassing how little I've learned even after ten years of seed sowing and raising (which is of course actually no time at all in terms of a breeding programme, especially where there's been virtually no previous work to draw on, as with galanthus).
For example (and most worryingly!) I was asked to fill a last-minute gap in next year's RHS Daffodils, Snowdrops and Tulips Yearbook with a 3,000 word article on my snowdrop breeding. The editor seemed not too unhappy with the article, but now of course I'm really worried that what little experience and (so far) quite marginal results I've achieved mean the article is really quite thin on actual achievements and knowledge imparted - more a 'this is what I'm doing and what I might achieve eventually, but haven't so far, fingers crossed, watch this space piece of fluffy puff! :-[
Hey-ho! I suppose if you stick your head above the trench you get what you deserve!
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That was quite a marathon Graham, posting something for everyone and inviting comment! 8) In general, I DO like the lot (except-those-you-know-which) but like the others, I REALLY like the little poeticus. Just imagine if someone were doing this work with frits or tulips!!!
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I dont compose my photos but take maybe 5 or more from various angles. Here are some of my photos showing grey background, natural and the sky. The latter is something copied from Paddy in S. Ireland
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I am amazed to learn that daff exibitors only see new stuff at shows or similar... I cannot believe that the potential for sales, offered by fine photogrpahy of their wares, is not capitalised on by growers/hybridisers .
Graham, I will only say to you that I consider that my comments are/were in a "proper considered context". I will leave the matter there. Of course, I enjoy seeing the range of your flowers.
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Hi
Mark, I like looking at other peoples photos and the digital age means there are a lot more to look at. Your photos of Brian Duncan's flowers are the only way I get to see what he is doing (now that is an ambiguous sentence isn't it). He has a digital camera and I have seen photos of non-daffodil plants but I cannot recall him posting daffodil photos.
Lesley, we used to do a big late show in Bowral but that show got canned due to some internal differences. We built up a stock of late flowering varieties but only use them for breeding now. The other thing is that some varieties flower much later than is apparent when you purchase them. One of a famous breeders daffodil flowers after the poeticus (ie mid-October here)!! From a hybridisers point of view really early varieties and really late varieties are not very valuable as nobody will pay much for them. :(
That is why there is plenty of really nice late flowering daffodils here. And they cover most peoples likes and dislikes. So I said to myself why not finish with a flourish (this weekend will be my second last weekend of serious hybridising and I don't expect to be doing any further posts). I did not expect that my photographic abilities (or lack thereof) had displaced the flowers. However, you live and learn!!
We grow quite a few galanthus and fritillaria. In fact I am having some problems with feral fritillaria in my daffodil pots and boxes. However, I have not tried any hybridising with them.
We have about 4 boxes of miniature poeticus seedlings so we will be doing something with them in the next couple of years.
Martin, I have a few RHS Daffodils, Snowdrops and Tulips Yearbooks but as I pointed out earlier, miniatures are not something that are a big thing in UK daffodil world so it is not something that I have ever considered as a must have. After they got me to write an article and then didn't publish it I have given it a miss entirely. When in doubt I ask my botanist friend who specialises in narcissus! He is particularly knowledgeable in relation to species narcissus. He is not into non-wild hybrids. There are two books for miniature daffodil enthusiasts. The first is John Blanchards book that deals with the species and then there is a book by Murray Wells on Miniature Daffodils. We do have a lot of ADS Daffodil Journals that often have articles relating to miniatures.
Miniatures are about a quarter of all flowers in a US daffodil show.
Maggie, fine photography is an expensive overhead and it is used to a fairly limited degree in catalogues but fine photography of itself won't sell bulbs if the bulbs themselves are not of a high quality. Daffodil exhibitors are a bit more discerning than that. Even in my case, having better photographs will not increase my top end sales. At the low end photos are irrelevant. The other thing is that photos are viewed on a computer at a low resolution. I don't send people 5 megapixel images (I would lose customers if I did) and I don't send multiple angles unless it is a flower at the premium end of the market. At the top end quality and good service are everything.
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Graham, with any luck the RHS Daffs, Snowdrops and Tulips Yearbook may decide not to publish my article either! Embarrassment solved! :)
I'm sure we'll all miss seeing your photos when your hybridising season ends. My comments about the blue backgrounds weren't meant to be a serious criticism and the daffs were great to see whatever the background (I'm sure Maggi and I didn't mean to suggest that the background ruined seeing the flowers for us or was more important than seeing the flowers - just meant as an aside). Hope we'll see that miniature poeticus flower open before you stop posting!
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Ah, Maggi The lawyer will always have the last word! Graham, if you invite opinions you will have to be more specific if you are going to be upset by some. I'm sure nobody meant criticism by what was said, just personal preference, so don't feel hurt by the discussion. We would rather see your daffs on a background of fluorescent polka dots ( 8)) than not at all.
It's sad we will never see most in the flesh - rather like posts of many wild orchids, which we will never have the chance to grow. Worse is seeing the ones we like best being described as being not what you're looking for in your breeding programme! :-\
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"Maggie, fine photography is an expensive overhead"
Graham my new camera bought a few months ago for it's size - to fit in my pocket - and 10 megapixels was well under £200. It has been so good my other digital camera is now now collecting dust on the book case
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author=mark smyth link=topic=700.msg19550#msg19550 date=1190790427]
I dont compose my photos but take maybe 5 or more from various angles. Here are some of my photos showing grey background, natural and the sky. The latter is something copied from Paddy in S. Ireland
Your photos of your Daffodils are superb ,specially those that have the sky as backgroud ,Mark,it almost convinces me to change my S.L.R. Digital to your small one , that fits into your pocket.I found mine rather cumbersome on the 5 day bustour during the conference in may in the Czech Republic-so please let us know the make and other details of your camera.
Narc. 'Mitzi' is just finished flowering in my garden-individual flowers lasted for 3 weeks.
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Canon Ixus 900Ti
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individual flowers lasted for 3 weeks.
This feature is something not always appreciated by new gardeners... often we hear moans ( usually about the larger garden types daffs)about what to do with the daffodill leaves after the flowers are past: some folks tie them up in knots, cut them off etc... all look ghastly and do the bulbs no favours... if these people stopped to consider how long each flower has given them pleasure, you would think they would be a bit patient and let the leaves alone in peace to build up next year's blooms. Narcissus 'Cedric Morris' has the longest lasting flowers of all our narcissus...easily ten or twelve weeks.
Now, I'm sure that none of our Forumists would abuse their narcissus leaves in the ways I have listed, but I am aware that there are many people reading this forum who are new gardeners, and not specialists growingdwarf species , as we mostly are, so I felt I had to make this point about how well these flowers perform for us and how we owe them a little respect in return! Be kind to daffodill leaves!
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Anne
A couple of photos for you. Hot and windy and no rain for a while so our daffodil season is rapidly coming to an early end.
If you are not into blue backgrounds don't bother with this post. :P
The poeticus is a large miniature in size and dwarf in terms of height. There is another yet to open. Some water will assist the one that is yet to open.
I can't imagine miniature poeticus becoming generally available for a very long time and ours will find a ready market in the US when we have built up our stock. However, we have a lot of work to do if we are ever to catch up on Leone Lowe's miniature poeticus.
In the words of Bugg's Bunny: "Tttthat's all folks."
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That 5 w-w seedling (third pic down) is a cracker!
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The first "pink" one is a lovely shape, and I agree with Martin on the third one but I'm voting for the second last... the triandrus with long petals, what an elegant flower.
Trying hard to imagine "Hot and windy and no rain"... it's not easy at the minute, though this afternoon turned nice and bright.
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5W-W for me too I think. So pure white on elegant little flowers. Graham I don't mind the blue background. We've had so many grey days recently that the blue looks very nice.
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Number 3 and 9 for me too, though I'd like to put that poeticus to stud! :o
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3 and 9 are wonderful.... the triandrus are such a nice race ;D.... but I rather like the rupicola and particularly that form of assoanus. Veeery nice!! ;D
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8)
The hot wind knocked the stuffing out of most of our very very late flowering daffodils but the wind has finally gone and there is still a few daffodils flowering.
The end of the season is marked by our Quickstep seedlings, late flowering bulbocodiums, late flowering N jonquilla and our late flowering NTT.
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Graham,
Nice!! I particularly like those late flowering NTT. Beautiful. Tricollet is rather cool (Sorry Lesley), as is Bright Angel. I still have bulbocodiums flowering here plus the very last of the other daffs. Also more buds emerging on 'Galligaskins', which means a third flush for the season spread over a few months. I can check when they first started flowering but this is extremely unusual in my garden. There are 4 buds emerging from only the couple of bulbs I have, so it is quite a significant flush comparatively.
Great pics Graham!!
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Lovely 5W-W too.
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Lovely 5W-W too.
I was about to say that too!
Chloë
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Tricollet is rather cool (Sorry Lesley),
yuck!
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My own N. b. obesus is still a couple of weeks away, though a good potful and for the first time in years, the leaves are fully deep green instead of with unsightly yellow tips. I have my fingers crossed though lest I speak too soon.
N. triandrus ssp triandrus is starting and may be worth a pic in a few days or a week.