Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: ashley on March 13, 2011, 04:17:32 PM
-
Trillium chloropetalum from exchange seed
Trillium kurabayashii seedlings beginning to show foliage variation in their second year
-
hello,
today in flower trillium ?
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/yuccajoe/garten%201/lki007.jpg?t=1302017558)
cheers
chris
-
With me the first to flower (in greenhouse) is Trillium ovatum. This plant travelled very long way from New Zealand, from nursery of Mr. S. Preston specialized in Trillium as cut flower, exporting them to USA and famous for large collection of Trilliums and Alliums. I got them in 2008 and now they accomodated to season change. Mr. Preston kindly sent me a lot of seeds, inclusive hybrids (started to germinate this spring) and very good rootstocks.
Janis
-
Trillium chloropetalum from exchange seed
Trillium kurabayashii seedlings beginning to show foliage variation in their second year
your seedlings are fantastic Ashley
-
However can trilliums be used as cut flowers? I would think it would kill the plant.
-
Very nice Ashley,Janis ,Chris.
However can trilliums be used as cut flowers? I would think it would kill the plant.
Hello Anne
The details of Stewart Preston's successful trillium cut flower experience is recorded on the Trillium L archives ,(sorry can't give you the link as my computer can't find the server to access the info).
If memory serves me correctly not all the flowering stems on each plant were cut.....
Cheers Dave
-
Thanks, Dave. It would be a while until mine were big enough for that treatment!
-
However can trilliums be used as cut flowers? I would think it would kill the plant.
This is a common myth based on a misinterpretation of observations..
Trilliums are extremely adapted to deciduous woodland conditions. If you cut back a "normal" perennial it will grow back the same year. This does not make sense for a Trillium. A second growth would be a complete loss because the trees at that time will rob it of light and water. For that reason there is a mechanism that prevents buds from starting unless it has been subject to a cool period. Thus: If you cut a Trillium for flower it will not appear until next spring - maybe weakened but alive. This also works for seedlings. First year there will only be a cotyledon. Some other woodlanders like woodland Corydalis behave in a similar way.
Cheers
Göte
-
Stewart was harvesting from plants with dozens of stems in flower Anne. I don't think it's happening now as the 9/11 thing in the States killed the cut flower trade with flights cancelled and everything from your suitcase to your handkerchief being examined for bombs and anthrax.
There was also resistence from the Trillium growers in the USA who were outraged that THEIR plants were being traded in such a way, Trillium being, apparently, sacred to a small group of dedicated growers. Stewart's flowers were superb, treated in such a way as to be long lasting, well packed and if not for the terrorist attacks, would have been a successful venture. Such is life.
-
The old Trillium-L list on Surfnet was closed on January 1, 2011. Try here for the new list:
http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/trillium-l
My Trillium nivale bloomed about a month ago, and therefore somewhat later than normal. I did not check the last couple of days, but no new Trillium flowers were open before then. The first to come up were Trillium sessile, native to southern Indiana but transplanted to my garden here in central Indiana. A few T. cuneatum are up, but not all of them. Most came from North Carolina outside the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
I think it's time I checked up on the Trillium beds again.
Jim
-
Here now in flower Trillium kurabayashii
Roland
-
The old Trillium-L list on Surfnet was closed on January 1, 2011. Try here for the new list:
http://mailman.science.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/trillium-
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Cheers Dave.
-
The first trillium to bloom here is always this little gem, Trillium ovatum hibbersonii. I had it in a trough for about five years, in a very peaty soil. There it seeded quite well, and the patch became very dense. Last year I "dismantled" that trough and set the hibbersonii "free" in various places in the garden, and some in pots. They now all seem to be on their way back up, includding the ones in pots. It will be interesting to see if they seed as freely in their new positions.
The last picture is of one of the first generation seedlings I got from the original plant; interestingly it had sets of four leaves rather than the usual three. I discussed this with Ian Young a few years back, and he said it was not an uncommon occurance for T. o. hibbersonii. One winter this one, and most of its large siblings in the trough disappeared, luckily the younger ones made it through.
Knud
-
I think Michael said he had lost many Trilliums over the winter. Count me in also. My pure white T. rivale are down to three, hibbersonii are down to two, Purple Heart is two, grandiflorum only 3, Snow Buntings are a no show, ovatum Roy ?... all dead and a pot of very fine rivale ex Michael all dead.
Shouldnt they be hardier than this? Do vine weevils attack Trilliums?
On a positive note a couple of flowers from a group that grow in full sun on the rockery
-
As far as I know, they are certainly very cold hardy, Mark. Maybe a wet and long autumn followed by a cold winter is not to their liking? Here I think most of my 6-8 species have survived this winter. Our cool summers and long wet autumns tend to keep many trilliums green quite late into the autumn, certainly a lot later than what I have seen in Ontario woods, where they grow naturally, and where they are probably "shut down" by hot and dry summers well before onset of their very cold winters. Then again, I have never lost any trilliums in the ground, - yet, so my speculation is not entirely well founded.
Knud
-
Many of my early flowering Trillium has flower or bud. I have not lost any of my Trillium. I've Trillium rivale on several places in my garden and they have all buds. There are several who have problems with growing Trillium rivale outside here in Denmark and therefore they grow them in pots and lose them. I do not think they grow very well in pots, maybe they have it too wet and too cold. I grow my rivale outside in both sun and shade and in a well-drained peat with plenty of humus (old leaves) Many of my Trillium apetalon has flower and there is a great variety in colour and leaves size. I bought my white form as Trillium smallii alba, but there is not described a white form of smallii and therefore I think it's Trillium apetalon alba. Several Trillium sow them self in my garden e.g. I have two plants of a plant as I got as Trillium chloropetalum giganteum and for three years ago the came over 100 seedling around them, none have flowered yet but I hope they will do it next year.
-
Mark and Karl, I took "account" of the trilliums yesterday, and the only ones that have not shown yet are T. grandiflorum and T. sulcatum. They are normally quite late, so hopefully they will turn up eventually.
My experience with T hibbersonii is that it is was very happy in the small but deep trough it was in for several years, and now spare plants from last years division that ended up in nothing but a shallow (4 cm) tray, really, are now up and blooming. I do not have experience with larger trilliums in pots, are they possibly less happy "contained". It could be, of course, that hibbersonii is the exception and just feels at home in our mild and wet west-coast climate, wherever we put it.
By the way, Karl, our hibbersonii hails from Denmark, we bought it from Sven Aage Askjaer at his Hvidbjerg Planteskole, - a very nice garden and nursery.
Knud
-
Mark, Were your Trilliums in pots? I found last year those I had in boxes outside all were very badly damaged or killed. In the ground they are totally hardy. This year I learned from my mistakes and brought the boxes inside and covered them with insulation, all were fine this year.
Susan
-
I have tried T rivale about three times in the open. It always died the first winter.
Apetalon is also diffcult to keep alive as is catesbaei.
Both die back in cold winters.
Also I am unable to grow sessile Trilliums from the American south. Even if they survive the winter cold I loose them in a year or two. I think my climate is wrong.
Of course Denmark is three.four zones warmer than my place.
I saw the first staring today. Angustipetalon.
Cheers
Göte
-
I am late with taking pictures. But here is one of my kurabayashii.
Cheers,
-
we bought it from Sven Aage Askjaer at his Hvidbjerg Planteskole, - a very nice garden and nursery.Knud
Knud - I thought Svend-Aage had retired but I see his website is still up and running. He had one of the most delectable list of goodies anywhere so glad to see he's still active.
www.kalmiopsis.dk (http://www.kalmiopsis.dk)
Some really hard to find plants there.
johnw
-
Susan they were in a mixture of pots troughs and raised beds. I think the problem in the troughs is after a big freeze. As the troughs defrost the centre stays frozen and the outside in thawed but no way out for the water
-
John, we visited Svend Aage's nursery eight years ago, more or less by chance and somewhat late in his season. He still he had quite a selection, though, and we came away with some treasures, one of which was Northern Labrador Tea (Rhododendron tomentosum v. subarcticum). We enjoyed a nice walk around his garden, and received kind and generous advice on many plants.
Knud
-
Out in my patch of woods, the Trillium cuneatum (from North Carolina) and T. sessile (from Southern Indiana) are in bloom. Some of the TT. erectum album and simile (Tennessee and North Carolina) are up and showing buds, too. I don't see any of the T. erectum from Canada so far. The local native T. recurvatum are up, but the buds are still cloaked in green sepals. Most T. grandiflorum are not up yet, but one precocious little clump is up and in bloom.
Jim
-
Out in my patch of woods, the Trillium cuneatum (from North Carolina) and T. sessile (from Southern Indiana) are in bloom. Some of the TT. erectum album and simile (Tennessee and North Carolina) are up and showing buds, too. I don't see any of the T. erectum from Canada so far. The local native T. recurvatum are up, but the buds are still cloaked in green sepals. Most T. grandiflorum are not up yet, but one precocious little clump is up and in bloom.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Any chance of uploading some pictures of these Tennessee and NC erectum album and simile later on? I would love to see what these 'original' plants from the Great Smokey Mountains look like. The garden specimens are often hybrids.
My Canadian erectums are up and almost flowering. Big plants with big flowers. They were a gift from Kristl Walek.
Best,
-
Hi John and all,
My Canadian erectum came from Kristl as well. Today, they are up just a bit, and they look somewhat stunted. They seem not to be completely comfortable down here in Indiana. We'll see how they look next week.
I have pictures of T. erectum album and T. simile from Great Smoky Mountains National Park, taken in situ. I'll hunt some out and post them here. The specimens transplanted into my garden (under a National Park Service research permit) do not grow as large as they did in the Park, at least not so far, after one to three years in my beds. I am concerned about the effects of our climate on them. If you move the T. erectum album from the pass at 6000 ft down to near Gatlinburg at 1600 ft, they seem to die. Based on amounts of DNA in the cell nuclei, simile seem to be different from erectum album; but Richard Vagner and I think that what you see between Gatlinburg and the Pass (Newfound Gap) is a cline made up of a hybrid swarm connecting the two species. We do not yet have the kind of data that I think would unequivocally support that hypothesis, since we still lack DNA sequence data.
By the way, Trillium, like Paris, have huge amounts of DNA per cell nucleus: 110 to 130 picograms per nucleus. Ben Zonneveld did the DNA measurements on our specimens, and formal publication will depend on when Ben feels comfortable with the data. I tend to always want more data.....
Jim
-
Hi John and all,
.....but Richard Vagner and I think that what you see between Gatlinburg and the Pass (Newfound Gap) is a cline made up of a hybrid swarm connecting the two species. We do not yet have the kind of data that I think would unequivocally support that hypothesis, since we still lack DNA sequence data...
Hello Jim,
So there isn't an elevation 'mark' where you can find both species together in the same spot? If they where two distinct species this might be possible or not? Is it just the National Park population of erectum album that is altitude sensitive or does that count for erectum album in general? And what about simile? Does it linger or die when you move them up to higher altitudes?
Interesting stuff. I am curious about Ben's findings.
Cheers,
-
In the field, Richard and I judged "simile" vs. "erectum album" on the ratio of petal width to petal length. I spent a day on my hands and knees in the rain and snow one April a couple years ago, measuring petals with a millimeter ruler. Narrower petals = erectum album; broader petals = simile. There was no place where there were two distinct types and no intermediates; everywhere had a continuous spectrum of ratios. The sites with the widest petals were at the lowest altitude (ca 1200 ft in Gatlinburg). We judged that at ca 2500 ft elevation, there were the last of the "simile" but there was still a continuum of ratios. That is why we consider the populations in the national park to form a cline joining the two species. We visited the type locality for simile in North Carolina, and my impression was that they were all simile there (by petal width). However, it was full of people -- it's a local park --and we couldn't do too much with the plants.
I think the nuclear DNA amounts may not strictly follow the ratios of petal width to length, as I recall. I haven't done all the data correlation yet. We did not take samples for DNA for all the petals we measured, as that would have been impractical. It would also have greatly exceeded our permit limits. We don't consider the project completed yet by any means, and my ultimate goal is still to see DNA sequence data for all these plants. We are all three retired, and this is 100% un-funded, so it may not get finished the way I'd like to see it. I still do not have any lab lined up to do sequencing for these plants.
It is fortunate, too, that the Trillium seem to bloom before the bears come out of hibernation! Two old guys with bad knees (Richard) and bad feet (me) gimping along the roadsides, looking at flowers! At least Ben got to sit in his nice lab in the Netherlands for his part of it. Richard and I even had a couple cars of park rangers worried that we were going to fall over at their feet on one occasion, on a back road at high elevation. We were a little out of breath, but we managed to stay upright.
Jim
-
Hi There - My name is Larry Neel and this is my first post. I have no idea if I've set things up correctly but here goes - I live at 3500' in the woods in Siskiyou County, Northern Ca USA and have been gardening at this location since 1985. I'm particularly fond of Anemone, Corydalis, Erythronium, Hepatica and Trillium.The last 3 years I've been chasing around CA and OR in spring and summer looking for various forms of these species. For this post I'm attaching pics of 7 forms of wild T. kurabayshii taken in the last few weeks in Humboult Conty, CA. Enjoy.
-
Welcome to the forum Larry, some lovely Trilliums there, fortunate to be able to find them in the wild. Enjoy the forum, keep the pictures coming ;D.
-
Welcome here Larry
Fantastic collection Kurabayashii's
I just have 3 different ones
Red , Dark red and almost black
never seen a yellow , white or a bi-coloured one
Roland
-
Welcome to the forum Larry, a week ago I planted several pots with seedlings of Trillium albidum and kurabayashii out into my garden, I hope they will be just as beautiful as yours Larry :)
Knud; Svend Aage has still a fantastic nurserie and garden.
Several Trillium got flowers and I must look at them every day. One of them I got as Trillium kojima and I've tried to find out what it is: it is a Trillium coming from the Japanese island Kojima and it is described as Trillium amabile var. atropurpureocarpum and the name amabile is a synonym for smallii, so it must be Trillium smallii var. atropurpureocarpum.
For the first time I have flowers in the rare Trillium x miyabeanum, it is sterile so no seeds.
Trillium pusillum giving me trouble, just the variety ozarkanum grows very well for me. Last year I got the variety monticulum and I am very pleased that it already bloom this year.
-
......It is fortunate, too, that the Trillium seem to bloom before the bears come out of hibernation! Two old guys with bad knees (Richard) and bad feet (me) gimping along the roadsides, looking at flowers! At least Ben got to sit in his nice lab in the Netherlands for his part of it. Richard and I even had a couple cars of park rangers worried that we were going to fall over at their feet on one occasion, on a back road at high elevation. We were a little out of breath, but we managed to stay upright........
Maybe the bears did see you, but out of pity they didn't bother you... ;D ;D ;D
-
........We are all three retired, and this is 100% un-funded, so it may not get finished the way I'd like to see it.........
Jim,
Here is one that would like to join in the research. Work has prevented me from taking time to go to the States and see the gems in the wild. There is a chance that next year I will be able to go so maybe it is time to join in as you have mentioned before.
Best,
-
......For this post I'm attaching pics of 7 forms of wild T. kurabayshii taken in the last few weeks in Humboult Conty, CA. Enjoy.....
Welcome Larry and thank you for sharing these pictures of beautiful wild specimens of my favourite Trillium.
Cheers,
-
Variations of albidum in my garden. All of them bought as albidum but, when I look at their ovaries (not visible in the pictures) the first two are most probably hybrids.
-
Group planting of albidum and kurabayashii
-
A few garden impressions with my Trilliums
1. cuneatum
2. cuneatum
3. ovatum
4. albidum and anemone nemorosa
5. albidum and Helleborus
-
Variations of albidum in my garden. All of them bought as albidum but, when I look at their ovaries (not visible in the pictures) the first two are most probably hybrids.
John,
The more time I spend in the woods the less sure I am about species ID. The plant I called a white form of T. kurabayashii is visually identical to T. albidum. T. albidum however usually colonizes in suitable locations and when it does grow near T. kurabayashii or T. chloropetalum there can be hybrids. I've attached a picture of such a plant from the only location I know where T. albidum and T. kurabayashii overlap, taken in 2009. Unfortunately when I revisited the site to try and collect seeds, elk had trampled the area and I couldn't find the hybrids in 2010.
The white and yellow forms of T. kurabayashii occur at about 1 plant per 200 of the standard Burgundy and pop up here and there, never as a group. Additionally all the wild T. albidum I've observed have a sweet apple like fragrance. The white Kura's have a rotten fetid smell which attracts a predatory type pollinator who ignore all the other blooming plants which probably accounts for the fact there are no intermediate colors between these two in the wild. I hope to change this with my paintbrush. Attached is a picture of the pollinator mentioned above.
Last but not least there are differences in similar plants growing in the same general area as shown in the last two attached pictures. One plant has what I will call conventional stamens and anthers for T. kurabayashii while the other plant has yellow stamens and anthers.
My suspicion is that the people responsible for giving us the keys for the western species were primarily "Road Hunters" and never got back to their rigs after an hour or two in the brush, muddy, bloody, with more ticks on their bodies than when they left the road and in a couple of days were in trouble because some of that vegetation used to pull yourself up those steep unwalkable slopes; well that was poison oak.
Irregardless of what they are it's nice to see and grow them.
-
........We are all three retired, and this is 100% un-funded, so it may not get finished the way I'd like to see it.........
Jim,
Here is one that would like to join in the research. Work has prevented me from taking time to go to the States and see the gems in the wild. There is a chance that next year I will be able to go so maybe it is time to join in as you have mentioned before.
Best,
John,
The invitation still stands. We are not going into the field this year, but we hope to collect T. erectum next year from just north of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park northward on into Pennsylvania. We want to see how the nuclear DNA amounts there, far from any T. simile, compare to those inside the National Park. If we do make the trip, it will most likely be in the latter half of April. I need to check with local Trillium folks for localities and bloom dates. Anybody care to suggest best bloom dates and possible collection sites? We collect three live specimens per colony, usually. We may take more herbarium specimens, but usually without the rhizome and roots.
If you can get over here for 10 days or so when we go, we can start out showing you the Trillium species as they grow inside the National Park, then head north to collect the other specimens.
Jim
-
...... Additionally all the wild T. albidum I've observed have a sweet apple like fragrance. The white Kura's have a rotten fetid smell which attracts a predatory type pollinator who ignore all the other blooming plants which probably accounts for the fact there are no intermediate colors between these two in the wild. I hope to change this with my paintbrush. Attached is a picture of the pollinator mentioned above.....
.........
Hi Larry,
And what about the ovaries. Is there no difference in the colour between albidum and kurabayashii. I believe kurabayashii has a dark purple one and albidum has whitish to whitish pink? Or is this too a garden observation?
Since you hunt for these gems off the beaten track, besides the ticks aren't you scared for mountain lions or bears?
Another question about leaf pattern. Russ Graham showed me a kurabayashii from the Brookings area once with superb leaf colours and leaf mottling. Is this typical for 'northern' types or do you find them lets say in Humboldt county or Klamath area too?
Cheers,
John
-
.....The invitation still stands.....
OK Jim,
If the opportunity will really come for me next year, than count me in.
Cheers,
-
Hi John,
The burgundy form of grayish is purple. The yellow or white forms can be purple, light pink, or green. Jepson says album is usually light but purple forms exist. Russ Graham called out PBS last week over some new pictures they posted as . Some very responsible people went back out in the field with four books to help key things out, visited two different populations and concluded there was too much variation for a positive ID as album or .
Range cattle are worse. I've been chased by bulls a couple of times. Our local black bears are as scared of us as we are of them. With the exception of young animals driven close to humans because of range conflicts, lions are basically invisible. Their senses are so keen that they see you but you never see them. I've seen their tracks and stumbled on a half dozen of their kills but after thousands of hours in the woods and mountains, the only ones I've seen are driving mountain roads at night. It amazes me that an animal that large could be so elusive.
Grayish by my observation is the most consistent of the western sessiles when it comes to mottling. As I'm sure you're aware, the mottling fades with age. T. album is the least consistent. I've attached some pictures from a wonderfull place called Big Meadows in Siskiyou County CA which has a cream colored albibum that grows as high as 7000'. Also attached are a picture of a plain leafed but bright white flowered form from Salmon River CA and a pic of a mottled form from Bald Hills, in Humboldt County CA. I'll post some pics of grayish from my garden when the flowers open. (Spring still hasn't sprung here.)
Regards,
Larry
-
Somehow the word kurabayashii got changed to grayish on my post and I didn't get your qoutes right. Sorry, I'll learn.
Larry
-
Hello Larry, welcome to the Forum.... sorry it took me so long to say "hi" but I'm just back from the Alpines 2011 conference .
...great photos you are all showing here.... happily, the dual Foreest and Farrer Medal for the most meritorius plant in the Confercen Show was won by a magnificent pot of Trillium grandiflorum, over 20 years old, always pot grown, byt Chris Lilley... see Cliff Booker's photos of this great plant here :
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2751.msg197562#msg197562 :o :o 8)
-
unbelievable pot Maggie
Thanks for the link
Roland
-
Two Trilliums blooming in my greenhouse today:
Trillium angustitepalum I got long way from New Zealand
and
Trillium rivale
Janis
-
Good colours Janis
Roland
-
A rather nice Trillium grandiflorum taken at Logan Gardens on Sunday
-
......Grayish by my observation is the most consistent of the western sessiles when it comes to mottling. As I'm sure you're aware, the mottling fades with age. T. album is the least consistent. I've attached some pictures from a wonderfull place called Big Meadows in Siskiyou County CA which has a cream colored albibum that grows as high as 7000'. Also attached are a picture of a plain leafed but bright white flowered form from Salmon River CA and a pic of a mottled form from Bald Hills, in Humboldt County CA. I'll post some pics of grayish from my garden when the flowers open. (Spring still hasn't sprung here.)....
Thanks for sharing Larry. The Big Meadows albidum photo shows that albdium is not a typical woodland Trillium and grows in full sun as well. I believe the higher altitude prevents the plants from being baked or not? Are they present in the redwoods as well? I have planted many of my albidum also in full sun in my garden and it is doing very well. Getting bigger and bigger each year.
I look forward to see your garden kurabayashii photos.
Best,
-
Larry I was really surprised to see the Trillium albidum flowering out in the field. I thought all trilliums of this type at least, were woodland plants. We learn every day. Well I do, anyway.
-
Larry I was really surprised to see the Trillium albidum flowering out in the field. I thought all trilliums of this type at least, were woodland plants. We learn every day. Well I do, anyway.
Maybe this is another example of my two hobby horses:
#1: Woodlanders sometimes grow very well on alpine meadows because there is more moisture and lower temperature than in the lowlands.
#2: A plant does not necessarily grow best in the "natural" situation - it may be that the competition is not so well off there.
Happy easter everyone
Göte
-
I agree completely with you
We have a slope here
where they cut many years ago a forest
There are abundant bluebells growing
and flowering in a full sun spot
Roland
-
Lesley & John
The Big Meadows photo was taken on June 15, 2009. You'll notice there are groups of Veratrum californicum emerging. They grow 6 to 8 feet tall and in a week had shaded the Trillium's. I went back to collect seeds in August and trashed around for 20 minutes trying to find the Trillium's.
The same is true of trillium's growing in the oaks. Sunny when they bloom, then shaded.
John asked about Trillium's and Redwoods. T. ovatum which seems to like more shade than other western species grows well in the Redwoods. The other species grow along the edges or in open areas between groves.
A great place to spot Trillium's is a recently burned area. The briar's grow back in a couple years and access is restricted.
Great looking plants and garden John. We're forcast to have temps in the low 20's tomorrow morning which is going to burn leaf edges on some of my plants. Some years you win, some you don't.
Larry
-
Trillium recurvatum is native here in Indiana. This one came from someone's backyard woodlot about 10 miles from here. Most are not yet in bloom here, but a couple are. In this picture you can see the sepals hanging straight down.
Jim
-
Here is Trillium sessile, also native to Indiana. These were collected in Southern Indiana by Mike Broz and he shared them with me. They have been in bloom here for a couple of weeks now. Note the sepals do not hang down vertically from the petals.
T. sessile is a little smaller than my recurvatum, and much smaller than the cuneatum from North Carolina in my garden.
Jim
-
A lovely Trillium hybrid that has just started flowering. I think someone must have give it to me, anybody here?
Susan
-
You give it to me ?
-
A lovely Trillium hybrid that has just started flowering. I think someone must have give it to me, anybody here?
Susan
Susan,
looks suspiciously like a flexipes hybrid I have from Göte! Maybe? I believe it is flexipes x erectum.
Jamie
-
Another from Don Armstrong.
johnw
-
Very nice leaf pattern on your trillium, John, and I enjoyed the crocus pictures you posted in the crocus thread. Your crocuses are about a month behind our garden, but your trilliums seem to be at the same stage as most of ours. Is your spring relatively short and intense, after a long and cold winter?
About ten years ago we were given a potful of trillium seedlings that friends had found in their garden, among a stand of Trillium erectum, I think. The first started blooming three-four years ago, and each year new ones start. I have not been able to identify this trillium (suggestions welcome), but assume it is a hybrid, most likely with erectum as seed parent. The entire plant, apart from the flower, has a very nice dark olive-green colour. The flower petals are slightly pink on the outside, but white inside. This year I noticed that one of the plants had four leaves, four petals, and eight stamens, see picture two.
Knud
-
Has the look of Trillium pusillum Knud
Cheers Dave.
-
Very nice leaf pattern on your trillium, John, and I enjoyed the crocus pictures you posted in the crocus thread. Your crocuses are about a month behind our garden, but your trilliums seem to be at the same stage as most of ours. Is your spring relatively short and intense, after a long and cold winter?
Knud
Knud - Your Trillium is simply spectacular. I have never seen such dark foliage.
The Crocus have lasted a very long time as they came out about the first day of Spring and despite a bit of wind damage may last another week. Very strange the Trillium is at the same stage as yours, it's cuneatum. T. albidum sometimes peeks up in the autumn and yet comes through the winter unscathed, only a couple of those are up at this point. Because of the North Atlantic Current our Springs are very cool and slow, as long as a freak snow doesn't flatten things bloom lasts a very long time provided March rains take the frost out of the ground quickly. Sometimes the ground can stay frozen into April though as highs are usually in the single digits until May And then the fog (close to 120 days/year) helps things last, Narcissus leaves last well into July. The Hellebores are slow this year, as you can see they are just opening fully now, a few weeks later than usual and the same for V. 'Dawn'.
johnw
-
Knud, a really super trillium.... T. pusillum of some sort.... VERY nice!
-
Some Trilliums flowering here during the last week:
Trillium erectum
Trillium luteum
Trillium sulcatum
-
Susan I send the beautiful white/red Trillium to you for 3 years ago. It is a eretum hybrid and it came from a garden here in Denmark, it is a strong and well growing plant and I have several of them in my garden.
-
Hi Karl, I Knew that someone would recognise it, it is so distinctive. Thanks very much, as you can see it is doing really well. It did flower last year also and now I hope it is going to bulk up. Has it been named? Thanks again.
Susan
-
today in bloom, trillium sulcatum and trillium luteum....
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/yuccajoe/garten%201/yasy010.jpg?t=1303671516)
(http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/yuccajoe/garten%201/yasy013.jpg?t=1303671536)
cheers
chris
-
I want to post a couple pictures of Trillium simile in habitat somewhere in the Smoky Mountains. These were taken on our field trip on April 17, 2010.
Jim
-
jim, fantastic pictures from the habitat...
cheers
chris
-
Thank you, Dave and Maggi, for help in identifying the trillium. They are nice plants, and all appear to be identical or at least very similar. It is, however, a very dense stand and I have to split them, - is the best time to do this just as they wilt and go dormant?
John, by the sound of it your spring is not very different from ours, which I like as it keeps things blooming for a long time. We only get about 12 days of fog per year, but we compensate by what feels like at least 108 days of rain. We too had a late start to spring, but a warm April has more than caught up the slow start. All our trilliums have now appeared, grandiflorum, last as usual, is about 1 cm out of the ground today.
Knud
-
Susan is a self sown seedling and it has no name. It grows easily and quickly becomes to a clump. I have divided it several times and it takes no damage of it. This year I have flowers in a chloropetalum? who is self sown seedling in my garden it is also two-colored. Many of my Trillium sown them self in my garden e.g. grandiflorum, erectum, chropetalum, kurabayashii and around a no-named, maybe angustipetalum there are several hundred seedlings. I grow Trillium in a mixture of mould, peat and humus (old leaves)
Last year I got a Trillium sp. do not get flowers but leaves. It is also the first time I have flowers in Trillium chloropetalum 'Volcano' which I got from New Zealand several years ago. It is also the first time I see flowers in Trillium albidum Cherry Base as I got in Scotland last summer.
-
Thank you, Dave and Maggi, for help in identifying the trillium. They are nice plants, and all appear to be identical or at least very similar. It is, however, a very dense stand and I have to split them, - is the best time to do this just as they wilt and go dormant?
Knud
Knud
The accepted time is to divide late summer /early autumn, however in my experience i have divided clumps and potted up offshoots as late as May here without losses.Some individuals sulk for a season,(put up a leaf 4/5 months later but no bloom) ,while others 'don't turn a hair ' and flower as normal.
The following link shows an example of a division of the double white --T. grandiflorum forma flore pleno made a week ago .
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.15
Nice Trillium pics Karl and others.
Interestingly today i found a seed pot of T.chloro 'Volcano' ( NZTG seedex sown july 2010), just germinating.
I understand from postings on Trillium L the seedlings may not come true and that there will probably be a number of colour variations....some of them quite yummy.....
Cheers Dave.
-
Thank you, Dave, for advice, and for a useful example of trillium division. I will return to it in August/September, when it will be time to divide. I have included a picture of the patch of T. pusillum taken a few days ago. The leaves have paled a little to a more green olive, but are still quite dark.
Knud
-
I wonder who accepted that time? Is it based on experience on Trilliums o??
Best results for transplanting and dividing trillium is when the flowers start to fade.
The new roots start to emerge then and it is more important not to disturb the new roots than to preserve the greeen parts at that time.
I have learnt this the hard way; dividing T grandiflorum at various stages and it seems to work the same for all species that I have tried.
The sulking seems to be connected with the disturbance of the young roots. I have killed several by dividing too late in the year.
Several members of the Trillium list say the same as I do.
By the way. The same holds true for Lilium martagon and its allies.
Of course a potted plant can be put into the garden any time if it is done with care.
Have a nice weekend
Göte
-
Hello Gote
I used to divide Trillium's in January / February with success ,( i know a number of NZrs take this action then as well),,however the last few years most weekends at that time I've been in the 'wild' field tripping, so i divide clumps of various sps when i can in late March ,April and late May.
In that respect plants survive ,to put up a healthy leaf in the spring --some are non flowering but not all.
It may well not be the 'best' ?? time, but works for me.
It is interesting you and some others have a different experience to mine.
Why that is i don't know --climate ?--after care? ........
When do you think your late divisions died ?--prior to emergence in spring or over summer ? .
Cheers Dave.
Ps I have dug up and moved established clumps at peak flowering ,including T.grandiflorum and as well planted out at any time of the year ,again with success.
-
I lost a number of offsets. They were severed from the main rhizome in the fall. The reason for the losses was most probably that they did not establish any roots that season. Thus they did not send up any leaves in the following spring and were subsequently so weakened that they died.
The same operation performed at the time of flower starting to fade is generally a sucess. Practically all offsets emerge next spring. I have never found any important setback if the green parts were severed just after the time of flowering.
Trillium buds do not develop if they have not been subject to a cold period. Thus if planted in the spring nothing happens above ground that year.
They will also not emerge above ground unless they have sufficient amount of roots. Root development starts approximately when the flowers begin to fade. The roots generally last three years and in some instances one set or roots is not sufficient. This is the reason why some bought rhizomes do not emerge until after the second summer season.
It is possible to replant nearly anything at anytime if sufficient amounts of TLC are employed. However, if it is a question of dividing and severing rhizomes, the fall is definitely not as good as mid-summer.
As I wrote, this has been discussed on the Trillium list and several members have reported the same experience as I have done.
Cheers
Göte
-
A trillium I bought last year in flower here, Trillium tiwanense BSWJ 3411, it opend white and has faded pink. Also a nice form of Trillium luteum (I have another form of it -or hybred with mud coloured flowers)
-
Trillium luteum
-
peter that taiwanense looks like it needs splitting!!!!!
it will do it good. :) ;) :D
-
Sorry Shaun, its only got one nose yet, maybe next year ;)
-
Thanks Gote
Might try a few divisions later on this year at the time you recommend. :)
In the meantime thought you might like to see a few pics i took yesterday of divisions i took 'late' in 2010.
Trillium chloro divided late April 2010----shows new roots growing--with a close up of previous seasons roots --some damaged but others with an active root tip.
[attachthumb=1]
[attachthumb=2]
Trillium luteum divided late March 2010 showing active roots.
[attachthumb=3]
While i can confirm they leafed up this last spring unfortunately i cannot remember if they flowered.Duh !
(I could show you a number of other successful sps divisions --at a guess ,about 200 taken late ), of the now 400 plants i have potted up....... ::) ;D
Not withstanding the above i note your comments regarding losses and as i lurk on Trillium L ,the matters recorded there ,so it may be more applicable for Knud to divide when you suggest.
Cheers Dave
-
... Also a nice form of Trillium luteum (I have another form of it -or hybred with mud coloured flowers)
Peter, I've seen brown-ish flowered T. luteum growing in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, far from the nearest T. cuneatum or any other brown or red sessile trillium. A friend collected a piece of that clump, but I did not get any of it for DNA testing. It seems to be a color form that occurs in populations of wild luteum, but at a very low rate. DNA testing would confirm this, I suspect. T. cuneatum and T. luteum have strikingly different DNA amounts.
Jim
-
Some trilliums in flower in the garden today:
T grandiflorum
T erectum ssp albiflorum
T luteum
-
... Also a nice form of Trillium luteum (I have another form of it -or hybred with mud coloured flowers)
Peter, I've seen brown-ish flowered T. luteum growing in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, far from the nearest T. cuneatum or any other brown or red sessile trillium. A friend collected a piece of that clump, but I did not get any of it for DNA testing. It seems to be a color form that occurs in populations of wild luteum, but at a very low rate. DNA testing would confirm this, I suspect. T. cuneatum and T. luteum have strikingly different DNA amounts.
Jim
Thanks Jim
-
Thank you, Dave and Gřte, for an enlightening discussion. Hearing different experiences forces me to reflect on my practice, not only with trilliums, and I learn all the more, thank you for sharing your experiences. I cannot help thinking that climate plays a role, or at least that there must be conditions conducive to development or reestabliment of new roots after division. We normally have a mild autumn and winter (not this last one, though), with many trilliums staying green quite late into September. We often get 6 to 8 weeks of (cool and slow) growing conditions after August, so that a division even in early September would get several weeks potential growth before winter. I guess this is where some TLC is called for; not to damage already developed new roots during splitting and replanting.
Well, I will probably opt for an earlier division, if that means I will have more robust plants to work with on my first division of trilliums. And here, gardening in summer is infinitely more pleasant than in autumn.
I have included a picture of a group of trilliums that has changed since it was planted. I bought and planted a T. cernuum and a T. vaseyi 5-6 years ago, those are the white and maroon flowers in the picture. This year I noticed new blooms, which must be hybrids between the two. They have nice uniform colour inside the petals, but are speckled on the outside. The white one I suspect is a T. rugelii from what I can judge from pictures I have seen. By the way, I had to lift its "head" as it normally hides it completely below the leaves.
Knud
-
Thanks Gote
Trillium chloro divided late April 2010----shows new roots growing--with a close up of previous seasons roots --some damaged but others with an active root tip.
Cheers Dave
I think your picture proves my point. These "new" roots emerged from the rhizome many months ago. They clearly show the wrincles from contracting and probably started at the time I suggest transplanting takes place. What I advocate is to divide offsets just before the new roots emerge. This will minimize damage to them. A smallish offset may lack roots altogether or nearly so and if transplanted at the wrong time it will lie in the ground doing nothing and this increases the risk of failure.
Of course climate will influence the timing and Trilium species growing wild in areas where the difference between the seasons is less pronounced are likely to be less sensitive.
On a more general level. Plants do better if transplanted at a time when they naturally develop roots. Some plants will start developing new roots any time of the year some will not. Lilium martagon is a typical case. If transplanted in the fall it will "sulk" the full next year because just like Trilliums it develops its roots to support it next year in the summer but unlike Trilliums it does not have a mechanism to stop it from trying to flower so the spike will start and then fade because there are not enough roots. Terrestial orchids are sometimes the same and since they tend to have roots that do not branch they are even more sensitive. I wish books would tell us when roots develop. It is also helpful when we take cuttings.
Göte
-
I have always tried to replant, divide, and propagate Trillium while in flower, which negates the possibility of seed in most cases, but increases the chance of flowering the next spring simply because Trillium are making new roots while in flower at the apex of the rhizome. These new roots branch over the summer, but no new roots are made at the apex after the new bud (rhizome growth) has finished. Dividing after that usually leads to sulking in the garden the next year and possibly another year of recovery.
Aaron
-
I was very busy last weeks - trip to Greek Islands, visit of famous top gardeners to my nursery last weekend, reception at President of Latvia, so I didn't follow Forum for some time, Only today can show you few Trilliums (haven't time to work on pictures)
Trillium decumbens
Trillium grandiflorus Flore Plena - both from New Zealand
and
Trillium luteum - from Vaclav Jot, Czech Republic
Janis
-
Trillium in my garden, 2011
-
I have two Trilliums behaving oddly
1 is Trillium erectum 'Beige' which I got from Paul Christian a number of years ago. I thought it had died as I had not seen it for a few years but it is flowering this year.
2 is or was Trillium erectum white form when I bought it from John Lawson but has produced pink tipped flowers for a few years now. This year part of the plant has white flowers and part pink tipped. I hope to dig it up soon and check whether it is two separate plants and split the two colour forms
3 is Trillium erectum --it was bought from PC as the white form but has always been this colour
-
A friend asked me to identify this Trillium which she received from a nursery in a 5 pack with no names. I know nothing about Trilliums. Can anyone please identify it from these poor shots?
johnw - raining yet again.
-
Good morning, John,
I'm a member of the KNAT-club as well, so you have to take this for what it is worth. The trillium in your pictures look very much like one I bougth a few years ago as Trillium sulcatum. I have included a few pictures.
Plenty rain here to recently, but maybe dry today, just now the sun is shining.
Knud
-
John;
The plant in your pics look a lot like the yellow form of T. erectum, and should smell like wet dog.
Knud;
I'm sure someone will correctly if I'm wrong, but I'm almost positive that's a T. flexipes.
-
John,
I had the same question as your friend for the Trillium I grow. Mine are red but very similar to the one in your posting, only the color. I posted the photos on May 11. I tried to identify the 2 red Trilliums by looking through the Triullium book by F. Case and thought them to be either eretum or sulcatum. I cannot differentiate them from one to the other, though. The only think I could think was the place they grow. T. sulcatum seems to grow in southern area like Tennessee than Michigan where I live.
Well, I found a pot of Trillium with a pale yellow flower last Saturday at the farmer's market and bought it. It looks very much like the one you posted photos. The Trillium I bought was labeled as "Purple-beige Trillium, Trillium erectum". I want to post the photo but will have to wait until I go to work on Monday. I need to resize the photo to post but the resizing tool is with the PC at work.
Knud,
Is T. flexipes a type of T. erectum or they are different types within the Pedicellate Trilliums?
I love these nodding Trilliums regardless of their formal names but very much interested in finding out who they are as well.
Koko
-
arisaema,
Sorry, my question to Knud in my earlier post should have been directed to you.
Koko
-
Koko;
Your Trillium are planted, right? "trillium red-2" looks like a typical T. sulcatum; with wide petals overlapping at the base. I'd probably label "red-1" with the same name, but a side view of it would be helpful - and there are other members here that are far more qualified to identify them. A couple of bad pictures coming up!
T. flexipes is a different species to T. erectum, although they can and do hybridize in nature.
-
Arisaema,
Thank you for your comment.
Yes, they are planted in the ground.
I thought the two red nodding trilliums were slightly different but could not tell exactly how.
So, you think they are sulcatum? I will try to take side-view photos.
Koko
-
Sorry, I ment planted as opposed to wild, if you've bought them they were most likely wild collected in the Appalachians.
Please ignore the quality of some of these pictures, my camera doesn't like shade.
The first two show a small-flowered T. sulcatum, note the three-dimensional profile.
#3 and #4 are T. erectum from New York, much earlier and much larger-flowered than those in the south.
#5 is an Appalachian T. erectum.
#6 and #7 are T. simile (hybrids) from Gatlinburg, TN.
#8 is presumably T. erectum f. album with a dark ovary.
#9 is T. flexipes.
#10 is a lovely erectum-hybrid from Susan/Pitcairn Alpines named 'Kinfauns Hybrid'
-
Knud;
I'm sure someone will correctly if I'm wrong, but I'm almost positive that's a T. flexipes.
Thank you, Arisaema, I think you are right, and that it is most likely a T. flexipes. I looked them up in Case & Case's book on Trilliums, and if my Trillium is a flexipes, then it is most likely a southern form. There are a number of eastern Trillium species that are similar and very difficult to tell apart, - and then they hybridise. What convinced me that mine more likely is a flexipes than a sulcatum was the shape and colour of the ovary: strongly ridged/angled and white flushed pink.
I also checked the plant label for more detail. Below the name (Trillium sulcatum) it also has the flower colour. Red it said, probably OK for a sulcatum, but not for my cream coloured flexipes. I guess one should be a little sceptical to labels, this plant came from a large commercial, but good nursery. I have a few of these "difficult easterners", and I am less certain about what they are now than when I got them. I agree with you Koko, they are wonderful plants, and while it would be nice to know which they are, I am content to know that they belong to the Erectum subgroup.
Knud
-
Thank you Arisaema and John for your information.
There are so much to learn!
It bothers me a bit if Trilliums I have acquired could have been wild collected and marketed, as Arisaema pointed out. I must confess that I might not have been diligent enough to find out the sources but most of them were explained to be as nursery propagated or rescued from area to be developed. It is illegal to wild collect Trilliums in Michigan.
I will study your photos, my plants and the Case book and try to figure out.
Koko
-
That trilliums may be wild collected is not necessarily something wrong. There are land owners in the US who regularly collect trillium plants for sale just as they collect pines and other trees for sale. Furthermore many trilliums are collected where forests are turned into suburbs.
I have given up to try to discriminate between simile, erectum, flexipes, sulcatum and whatnotium. The names of those I have acquired did not fit the descriptions in the literature anyway. They seem to be a hybrid swarm. There are places where there is a seamless change over from one species in one area to another in another area. Some of them do not come true from seed either. Picture one and two below which I think is close to the description of one of the flexipes types is the seed parent of picture 3 and 4. The first year the seedlings had the stalk bending more than 90° below the leaves. Today the stalk is held above the leaves. The ovaries have all kinds of colour between dark red and white.
There also is a variation depending upon the age of the flower and plant. Pictures 5, 6 and 7 are all of a plant acquired as simile and shows varying width and substance of petals and varying degree of flatness.
Cheers
Göte
-
I have given up to try to discriminate between simile, erectum, flexipes, sulcatum and whatnotium. The names of those I have acquired did not fit the descriptions in the literature anyway.
I know what you mean..... if the plants cannot decide what they are, how are we to cope?! I am content to let the taxonomists occupy their time on such matters and for my part just enjoy the plants. :D
-
I like the idea of leaving the work of Trillium variety determination to taxonomists.
I will just enjoy them and hope they will come back year after year.
Koko
-
I've posted a number of recent Trillium pics on the NARGS forum.
To save 'cross' posting the link is below.
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.msg10698#msg10698
Cheers Dave
-
I've posted a number of recent Trillium pics on the NARGS forum.
To save 'cross' posting the link is below.
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.msg10698#msg10698
Cheers Dave
Dave looking at your pics,i am blown away with your seed germination,i get if lucky one or two a year.
-
Dave looking at your pics,i am blown away with your seed germination,i get if lucky one or two a year.
Davey
The pic shows only about a quarter of the seed pots that have germinated in the last couple of years --there are just as many pots again on the opposite side of the shade house that are awaiting signs of movement...... ::)
Back in May of this thread i inadvertently suggested to Knud that he divide his T. pusillum in late summer early autumn based on my experiences in dividing 'late' over a number of years.(In fact i was dividing up until the shortest day this winter ).
Gote commented that he and others had lost T.s when taking action at that time.
We then went on to discuss root growth,the effect of disturbing clumps and the differences in climate zones............
Without wanting to open this train of thought again ;D ;D i thought some of you might be interested in the results of divisions i took specifically in response to the postings made in May.
I divided 3 sps and potted up 6 rhizomes each of T.pusillium, T.chloro type white and double T.grandiflorum.
All 6 divisions of T.pusillum are currently flowering.
As well as 2 of T. chloro type--the 4 left are in leaf.
The 'parent' clumps in the garden haven't turned a 'hair' and are in bloom.
Not all has been successful however as only one of the T.grandiflorums is going to flower ---3 are in nearly in full leaf --2 rotted. This isn't unusual as i have experienced this before with this sps.The 'parent' clump in it's trough has flowers yet to open on all its growths.
When dividing i selected strong noses and was careful to try and not damage the yellow tip on each root.
Cheers Dave.
-
Dave looking at your pics,i am blown away with your seed germination,i get if lucky one or two a year.
Davey, Dave lives right at the bottom of the South Island, just 3kms north of the south pole and in a climate of perpetual mist and drizzle. This is perfect for Trillium germination and growth. I believe the temperature went up to -3C yesterday, when we had 23C here. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Dave lives right at the bottom of the South Island, just 3kms north of the south pole and in a climate of perpetual mist and drizzle. This is perfect for Trillium germination and growth. I believe the temperature went up to -3C yesterday, when we had 23C here. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You'll keep sunshine ::) !.Yes indeed you'll keep......... ;) ;D
Cheers Dave.
-
You'll have plenty chances this weekend Dave. I'm trembling in my boots. ;D :-*
Hopefully we'll have some Trillium pics to post here too.
-
Back in May of this thread i inadvertently suggested to Knud that he divide his T. pusillum in late summer early autumn based on my experiences in dividing 'late' over a number of years.(In fact i was dividing up until the shortest day this winter ).
Hello Dave,
I saw your interesting post (and many beautiful Trillium pictures in the link) as I returned from vacation recently, and thought I would give a brief update on my T. pusillum division.
Back in May late summer was still far away, and given the discussion that followed your "late summer early autumn" advice, I read some of your other postings in which you stated (late) January as when you normally divided Trilliums. So I opted for our "January", and divided in the latter half of July. The flowers were long gone, and the leaves came off quite easily when I handled the clump. I was a bit disheartened as I felt it was difficult to break the clump up without injuring some of the tiny shoots on the surface (I now wonder if they were root shoots). It was a big and congested clump, so I got many plants, most of which I planted in pots, some in the garden, and four I left in moist vermiculite in a tin. I was encouraged when I "rediscovered" the ones left in vermiculite 3-4 weeks later, and saw that they had developed nice tangles of new roots. Before I left for vacation I planted out about half of the potted ones, and they all had nice roots and a prominent growing tip.
Now I have to wait for spring to see what comes up, and in the meantime enjoy all the wonderful images of spring that emerges from your half of the world. Thanks again for your advice, Dave
Knud
-
A few more easterners posted here.
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=631.60
Best of luck Knud.
Cheers Dave.