Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Janis Ruksans on February 28, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
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Just returned from short trip to Turkey. Returned a week earlier than supposed due horrible weather - endless rains changing to snow in mountains. It was not worth to stay there longer. Here in my home still hard night frosts till minus 20 C, but days are sunny - temperature rises up to minus 2 C only. In greenhouses it reach even + 18 C in afternoons. It is most difficult period. Fortunately my covering with glasswool sheets works marvellously. In night it stops penetrating of frost and in day the same with heat. Under cover temperature at present is only +2 C and development is very very slow. Today I took one pot inside - for pollination. It is Crocus almehensis - relative of chrysanthus but with far wider leaves. I hope for some seed, but it could be very difficult as all my 3 corms are produced by splitting of the initial one. If some of forumists have this species - would be pleased to swap for genetic diversity and seeds. Esp0ecially for form with striped back of petals, more common in wild.
Janis
About trip - a little later, I'm working now on pictures.
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Did you visit this place, Janis? ;D
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Just returned from Turkey where I again went to mountains E of Antalya for beautiful Crocus pictured 2 years ago by Dave. Last year I was there too late and failed in search, but now - just in time although I suppose that I found it on another spot than Dave. Weather was extremely bad - rains and rains, but our Lord (or Allah) was with us - just on place rain stopped for half an hour. So we could collected few corms for collection and a pair of plants for herbarium. It certainly is new species even (not subspecies of biflorus). There are several features separating it from such crocuses as crewei, isauricus and nubigena. My attempts to find it previous spring failed, but this spring I got offer from Turkish friend to make common trip. I agreed, because he can ask local people about this crocus by photographs made by Dave, but we found it without help from local villagers.
Weather was very bad and dark, so flowers were closed. Really it was great wonder that we found it. My friend spotted leaves of Castanea sativus in roadside ditch. Chesnut trees were reported growing side by side with this crocus. How I spotted those 2 water washed ad-pressed to soil flowers some meters higher on slope, I can't understand even now. It was something blue what twinkled in my eyes sliding by slope. Turning back I long looked what it was and where before I saw it again. Climbing up muddy and slippery slope I reached this one and opened to check anthers - Yes! They were entirely black. As you can see - closed flowers are quite insignificant. In total at this population I counted 76 specimens. Population is very small - some 200 meters long between two living houses and some 30 meters up by slope. Crocuses were only below chestnut trees as all land around were ploughed. Returning of heavy rain stopped our attempts to search for other populations of this beauty.
I made long trip searching for some crocuses. Weather was so dull and wet that in only few spots I succeed to picture half open flowers.
Janis
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This is a beauty, Janis! never seen anything like that before!
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Wow Janis, what a stunning beauty !! :o :o
Thanks very much for showing !
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I think this may be the Crocus Dave found which Janis was seeking on this trip.....
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3261.msg82977#msg82977 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3261.msg82977#msg82977)
Now named as Crocus roseoviolcaeus
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Did you visit this place, Janis? ;D
Phantastic view, but out of my interests, sorry.
Janis
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Outstanding! Might just be my new favorite crocus--despite the fact that it may not show up in gardens for some years (if ever...only 76 individuals so far...). Gives us all something to look forward to....
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The black anthers on rich blue is very lovely, a new colour combo, for me at least. I'd barely got used to C. ch. 'Sunspot.' 8)
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After leaving alone in Antalya I rented car. Stupid Janis - I checked everything but not resin on wheels... It was almost nude. OK, still driveable on dry roads, but not for snow and ice. My next target again was following Daves road. I visited Avlan Golu, where Crocus baytopiorum is growing on quite unusual location - unstable stone slips. After short searching I found this marvellous species just at start of blooming. Not very variable, but some variation you can see on attached pictures.
Just on roadside was another crocus - very close to C. biflorus crewei, but with yellow anthers. Only one specimen seen had black anthers. On place I noted as black connective, but now, checking my photo I understand that not only connective, but anthers were black. Again just start of flowering and very few specimens were seen. Only half an hour with some sun between deep clouds was sufficient for some opening of flowers.
Janis
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Of course, I collected few corms for myself, but really very few - so it will take some years before I will have seed raised plants. There are many important features separating it from other "biflorus", few were found by my Turkish friends after returning to University and laboratory checking of collected material.
I wanted to visit locus classicus of my Crocus flavus subsp. sarichinarensis just described in my new book. It was quite late, but as locality is not very far from Antalya, I hoped to reach locality before total darkness. But road was not as good as in previous years, plus there was for some time closed road due huge transport in front of me. So I reached locality in total darkness. Well knowing where this crocus grow, I switched on minor light from my mobile telephone and - succeed to find it! So I got 5 corms for Botanical gardens collection and further laboratory research. Just now got mail that laboratory test confirmed that it really is new subspecies of crocuses.
Most interesting was explaining of crocus name - I named it by mountain ridge where it grows - Sarichinar Dag. I didn't know it before, but sari-chinar in Turkish mean - yellow platanus. Where you think is locus classicus of this taxon? JUST SIDE BY SIDE WITH HUGE PLATANUS TREE. So I couldn't give it better name.
Of course no possibilities to make pictures, so I'm attaching 2 pictures made in my collection and 3 from wild (pictured few years ago) showing some variability. You can see it in my book, too.
Janis
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Janis
it sounds a good trip although difficult due to the conditions. I am surprised you found the C. baytopiorum in flower so early as I thought it would be still under snow? Were the other crocuses flowering quite low down?
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Just somewhere disappear from screen long report about next day of my trip and I can't to find it more. Will try to repeat, but it never with me is easy.
So following day I went for Crocus biflorus atrospermus. I was in this locality in 2007 at mid of March. It was very cold morning, all was stiffed by frost and I found only few last flowers which by color looked as atrospermus, but really confirmation of name I got only 2 years later when ripened the first seeds. They really were black. The name atrospermus means - black (atro-) seeded (-spermus). So the plants were correctly identified. Now I was there much earlier, and... something too early. Only after long search I found few buds just coming out of ground at something lower altitude but still in limits of atrospermus. On attached pictures you can see this beautiful subspecies.
On opposite side of dirty road winding in mountains I spotted another crocus, at first look named "atrospermus light form" with very light blue flowers (still named so on pictures). Only next morning when I dissected few flowers on windowsill of my hotels room, I noted that it looks far different from typical atrospermus - note the small deep purple zone deep in throat. This one looks quite far from my concept how must to look atrospermus. But two biflorus subspecies in same spot? Seems incredible but later I remembered that Erich Pasche and Helmut Kerndorf in some article mention two other subspecies growing in mixed population. Question still remain - what is this one? In same morning I found that on same spot, between deep blue plants I got one C. antalyensis corm, but flower was damaged for picture. There were two other crocuses - at slightly higher altitude grow C. fleischeri, but between atrospermus - autumn blooming C. cancellatus, too.
Janis
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Further I turned in direction of Denizli where Ibrahim give me coordinates of some C. biflorus crewei population, where he collected the form, later named by him 'Hot Chocolate' and admired by forumists. But I couldn't withstand and stopped where huge meadow was covered by thousands of Cyclamen trockopteranthon flowers with fantastic sweet aroma. So I reached Crocus crewei locality when it was quite dark for good pictures. I was surprised by variability of this subspecies. Never before saw flowers with dotted back of flowers segments, and of course now I saw 'Hot Chocolate' in nature, too. Unfortunately it was far too dark for good pictures, but some I made.
Janis
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Next morning I accidentally stopped on roadside quite close to Denizli and was nicely rewarded by several beautiful plants, although morning was very rainy. The first plants seen were Crocus chrysanthus, but between them the most beautiful color ever seen - creamy white with deep yellow throat. Unfortunately all flowers were tightly closed.
Side by side grew a lot of biflorus crewei and again, as in yesterdays locality - variability was very great, and between them many with 'Hot Chocolate' color type, too. To show you real colors and variability, I dissected several flowers and pictured them from outside and inside. Note the one of "chocolate" type.
Janis
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There was one crocus species which I saw everywhere by the road as bright white buds on low-grass meadows, in clearings of pinewoods. I more than 10 times was in Turkey, but it was the first trip when I saw so much of fleischeri and some very nice - with quite dark back (with wide purple stripe) of outer flower segments and one with very rounded petals. Now I want understand why I didn't collect those special forms, but I was too excited in searching of biflorus group representatives, that give little attention to other species.
Janis
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There were two days when I didn't found something for what I was going. One very cloudy day with almost endless rain or, as we name it in Latvia - "Chinese fog" when small drops of water fills the air and very soon you are throughout wet I passed N of Milosh not far from Labranda where Crocus nerimaniae is growing and where our forumist (not long seen) Rik accidentally between C. nerimaniae collected one corm of Crocus caricus (photo you can see in my book). I went there early spring hoping to find more. From the same locality someone (not remember just who) in Crocus group newsletter reported beautifully form of Crocus pallasii. Now I saw there horrible view - wild boars "ploughed" up all underground where earlier were plenty of crocuses. I used half a day there walking long distances and everywhere was only same view - broken up forest underground with few muscari/ornithogalum bulbs on surface (seems of not so good taste as crocus corms). I saw may be some 5 Crocus nerimaniae, 3 Crocus pallasii plants (hiding between large stones) and some 3-5 Crocuses in flowers - but... not caricus at all, may be nubigena, but I'm not certain about name, the flowers were too damaged by rain, so no pictures I can show.
Next day I had something better weather and that I used in search of Crocus biflorus caeruleus in surroundings of Uschak. I crisscrossed all mountain roads at appropriate altitude, where all companion plants of this subsp. grew. Many times I stopped my car seeing something light bluish, but all that were only Colchicums. Sometimes I just-just drive through mud and then I swore to myself - never more travel alone! Everywhere in full bloom was Crocus chrysanthus. Uschak is the district from where famous cv. 'Uschak Orange' comes and there grows C. chrysanthus form with highest chromosome number 2n=20. It is quite uniform here and at first I supposed that single difference will be in color of stigma - yellow or orange, but later I found some specimens with brown flushed back of flower segments.
The last picture is of the last plant seen - it was C. chrysanthus with unusual for wild grown specimen number of flowers. After picking it out I saw that two more flowers were ready to come up but still waiting underground. When later in hotel room's warm opened largest bud it turned that this one is double flower with 12 petals, 6 anthers and 6-branched stigma - due proliferation two flowers grow together as siamic twins.
Janis
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Janis wonderfull pictures nothings to edd :) It seems you had a very good trip!
At first your C. chrysanthus from Denizli is C. flavus dissectus! also the white one!
And second one the C. biflorus atrospermus seems correct to me. My samples are also from same point plus I have seen my best C. antalyensis in same point just a little right side!
I did not checked for violet point in the throath but it was not wisible from out! and this subsp. seems exactly same as subsp. ionopharynx in color and size! just the color of anther is different!
In one crewei location of mines the flowers were smaller and the other location they were big like standart biflorus size!
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Janis the first two pics from Uşak are also C. flvus dissectus it is very common in that area. C. chrysanthus has always red style! Just in one corner I have find some with yellow style.
I also passed from there this week :)
I think that I was luckyer than you for C. b. caelestis :)
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Janis wonderfull pictures nothings to edd :) It seems you had a very good trip!
At first your C. chrysanthus from Denizli is C. flavus dissectus! also the white one!
And second one the C. biflorus atrospermus seems correct to me. My samples are also from same point plus I have seen my best C. antalyensis in same point just a little right side!
I did not checked for violet point in the throat but it was not visible from out! and this subsp. seems exactly same as subsp. ionopharynx in color and size! just the color of anther is different!
In one crewei location of mines the flowers were smaller and the other location they were big like standart biflorus size!
Sorry Ibrahim, but Crocus flavus dissectus hasn't annulate tunic as my plant from near Denizli, so it is chrysanthus.
About atrospermus I have no doubt, I got it from there in 2007 and seeds really are black. I agree that light plants looks close to subsp. ionopharynx - that was just my opinion, only anther color and locality puts this name under very very great question. Ionopharynx is closer to caricus and grow on other mountain system.
Janis
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Janis the first two pics from Uşak are also C. flvus dissectus it is very common in that area. C. chrysanthus has always red style! Just in one corner I have find some with yellow style.
I also passed from there this week :)
I think that I was luckyer than you for C. b. caelestis :)
I agree that on first two pictures most likely (on the first certainly) is flavus dissectus. I didn't collect there something, so I didn't see corms and covering sheets and flowers were mostly closed. I didn't checked style as I was very short in time, looking just only for caelestis. Greetings with finding of caelestis! Few pictures were made when I liked some plant. But there are plenty of chrysanthus with yellow style - I have such just from Uschak collected earlier.
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I mean this one fr. near Denizli.
So many leaves and long flowers like pulled up! This is a dissectus for me!
I have lots of dissectus pics from Denizli region!
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Janis, I believe that the C. chrysanthus should splite to many subsp. like biflorus grup!
There are great differences by locations! I had chace to see some chrysanthus location there are unbelieveable differences between.
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I mean this one fr. near Denizli.
So many leaves and long flowers like pulled up! This is a dissectus for me!
I have lots of dissectus pics from Denizli region!
That one I didn't checked, although by leaf number it can be chrysanthus, too. The white and this yellow grew only few meters one from another, so seeing that white is chrysanthus I automatically labeled this picture as chrysanthus, but I agree with you that by bud shape it looks quite slim, but weather was very cold and wet at this spot.
Here attached pictures of flavus dissectus from near Kutahya where I went to search for olivieri balansae, reported from surroundings. But I'm afraid that I was there too early, as only flavus were in flowers. On point given to me as exact locality - no one crocus still came up.
Janis
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Now starts "Yellow Fewer" of crocuses. Those pictures of Crocus chrysanthus are from Tavanli district - note nice black basal lobes of anthers - characteristic for just this population.
Janis
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Janis as it seen on your these chrysanthus pics they all have red style!
But the trade forms always mixing heads in wild everythings are very clear!
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Here attached pictures of flavus dissectus from near Kutahya where I went to search for olivieri balansae, reported from surroundings. But I'm afraid that I was there too early, as only flavus were in flowers. On point given to me as exact locality - no one crocus still came up.
Janis
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Maybe this is the plants that you are looking for! because the leaves are alittle wide for dissectus!
I dont have any information about balansae from Kütahya!! Is this a new info?
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Maybe this is the plants that you are looking for! because the leaves are alittle wide for dissectus!
I dont have any information about balansae from Kütahya!! Is this a new info?
Count the number of style branches! It is not balansae, pity.
Janis
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The last pictures for today. Side by side with chrysanthus grew Crocus olivieri subsp. olivieri - another member of "Yellow Fewer". In morning was heavy rain, you can see small water-drops on plants, but only few minutes of sun, and flowers opened. Shortly later started snowing. On same spot were other bulbs, too - 2 species of Colchicum and one Gagea.
Janis
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Janis your C. burtii is not correct :-\ It looks to me as a Merendera attica or Colchicum atticum.
C. burtii is samething like C. triphyllum but the corms is not membranous!
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Janis your C. burtii is not correct :-\ It looks to me as a Merendera attica or Colchicum atticum.
C. burtii is samething like C. triphyllum but the corms is not membranous!
Thanks for correction, Ibrahim. I'm not so keen in Colchicums and in this case I wrote the names given to me by others, who informed me this spot where 2 Colchicums and 2 Crocuses grow side by side.
Now the last entry from this short trip. Although there was some sunny break in clouds just when I was at Crocus olivieri-chrysanthus spot, all around was covered by black clouds. Going up to mountain pass started rain, then snowing and on other side of ridge all was covered with 10 cm of snow and road became icy. Regardless of speed only 20 km/h I felt as "duck on ice" and finally was trappen in lower spot of road between two higher points. Resin on rented car's wheels were almost nude - didn't feel it on dry or only wet road, but on ice it was not driveable. Fortunately one truck seeing me on roadside stopped. His wheels were equipped with chains so he took me on rope and helped to leave mountains. It was the last drop... Never more will travel alone. So I took road back to Antalya by main roads, hoping to change flight tickets to home. Weather broadcast offered same weather - rain, snow, low temperature. But by the road I maid few stops at quite unusual for Crocuses spots. I had information about very large flowering form of Crocus antalyensis growing in this district, and for greatest surprise for me I found it regardless of minor rain not stopping almost all the day. Here C. antalyensis was growing in deep grass, under few large oaks. A lot of flowers were damaged by slugs - you can see that on one picture.
I drove back by large main roads which were generally cleaned for snow and very late in night (or very early in morning) I was back in Antalya. Fortunately there still were places on first plain to Istanbul and further to Riga. So for great (and pleasant, I hope) surprise to my wife I returned a week earlier. I hardly noted - in future to check resin on rented car and never to go in mountains alone!
Janis
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Just found that I didn't show you picture of Crocus antalyensis growing side by side with Crocus biflorus atrospermus. Note the different pattern of flower outside color. That now is really last entry about this one week long trip.
Janis
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After so beatifull pictures of Janis I can start to show mine also here. We have been visited nearly same area in a little differenet temperature and in a few different days. I will start with Colchicum burtii This is very close to C. triphyllum but the corm is very distinguish.
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Here is my second colchicum from this trip.
I think it might be 'Colchicum figlalii' but I am not sure the stamens are white and short. It might be something else! I have to read all descriptons of sipring colchicums with so hard words for me.
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Here is the one that the Janis missed, from described area. Last year I also spend one day there and I couldn't see but this week I was luckyer than last year. Everywhere covered by yellow and sky blue color.
In the same location there are C. chrysanthus, C. danfordiae yellow, C. danfordia white and C. flavus dissectus.
But my ayes were on this new described C. biflorus subsp. caelestis.
They were between subsp. punctatus and pulchricolor. In color more looks punctatus but in size they were quite big like pulchricolor. Throat was also very interesting exactly lemony. On the biflorus key board says for this white rarely yellowish throat. I would not really agree for this point mine were all with lemony!
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The another crocus which was in my target for last week ('biflorus Belpınar Dirk' on first picture) I spend lots of time that area there I could find only C. biflorus punctatus and only one yellow C. danfordiae
I believe this is C. biflorus subsp. punctatus (It does not looks like Dirk's one :-\)
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Then I have seen another after Elmalı Dam. I think Janis also visited same location. He has seen baytopiorum and crewei. But I couldn't see baytopiorum. Dave has said these were isauricus! Now I am with Dave I will prefer say also isauricus. There were also lightly striped forms but everywhere was cowered with a few cm. snow so could see only these two dark samples more showy to made pics.
And this selected form looks like the Dirk's crocus 'Biflorus Belpınar'
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Then I have seen another after Elmalı Dam. I think Janis also visited same location. He has seen baytopiorum and crewei. But I couldn't see baytopiorum. Dave has said these were isauricus! Now I am with Dave I will prefer say also isauricus. There were also lightly striped forms but everywhere was cowered with a few cm. snow so could see only these two dark samples more showy to made pics.
And this selected form looks like the Dirk's crocus 'Biflorus Belpınar'
Judging by dry flowers of my herbarium now I tend to same opinion as Ibrahim - that this is isauricus, only corm tunics seem less hard. I saw only very first flowers, I suppose Ibrahim was there few days later, as well as in caelestis locality.
Janis
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Here is my another very interesting one. But his location was realy very bat and I think its life was in danger by lots of goats in area. It seems imposible to incerase in that location. After looking two hours I could see only two plants there was not the thirt one anywhere for check the variations of his family! and this two plants were in deep bushes where the goats can't reach them :(
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Here is my C. chrysantus from South East of Ushak.
I have seen thousands of these but they were all same.
-dark flower tubes
-village egg's yellow (not bright)
-red style (no one has yellow in two hours walking)
-no one has black lobes
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The another crocus which was in my target for last week ('biflorus Belpınar Dirk' on first picture) I spend lots of time that area there I could find only C. biflorus punctatus and only one yellow C. danfordiae
I believe this is C. biflorus subsp. punctatus (It does not looks like Dirk's one :-\)
Very interest Ibrahim. The seed from this Crocus ssp. Belpinar comes from the Crocus Group. Have you also a idea for this Crocus from Göktepe?
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Here some picures from this weekend,
Cr.dalmaticus
veluchensis x cvijicii 'Rainbow Gold'
cvijicii
aerius in two forms from Soganli
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The another crocus which was in my target for last week ('biflorus Belpınar Dirk' on first picture) I spend lots of time that area there I could find only C. biflorus punctatus and only one yellow C. danfordiae
I believe this is C. biflorus subsp. punctatus (It does not looks like Dirk's one :-\)
Very interest Ibrahim. The seed from this Crocus ssp. Belpinar comes from the Crocus Group. Have you also a idea for this Crocus from Göktepe?
Dirk, if your 'biflorus Belpınar' is raised from seed, can not be isauricus nor punctatus! Yes mine isauricus looks like yours but it is blue selection not a sttandart form of its own location!
The second one need to be something new subsp. close to crewei and caricus. I don't believe that it is not a crewei nor nubigena nor caricus! I have seen this plant last year in Göktebe and this year in another different location but very rich in variations :)
I will post them lather...
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The another crocus which was in my target for last week ('biflorus Belpınar Dirk' on first picture) I spend lots of time that area there I could find only C. biflorus punctatus and only one yellow C. danfordiae
I believe this is C. biflorus subsp. punctatus (It does not looks like Dirk's one :-\)
Very interest Ibrahim. The seed from this Crocus ssp. Belpinar comes from the Crocus Group. Have you also a idea for this Crocus from Göktepe?
Dirk, if your 'biflorus Belpınar' is raised from seed, can not be isauricus nor punctatus! Yes mine isauricus looks like yours but it is blue selection not a sttandart form of its own location!
The second one need to be something new subsp. close to crewei and cacicus. I don't believe that it is not a crewei nor nubigena nor caricus! I have seen this plant last year in Göktebe and this year in another different location but very rich in variations :)
I will post them lather...
Ibrahim,many thanks. I'm strained.
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Here is my C. chrysantus from South East of Ushak.
I have seen thousands of these but they were all same.
-dark flower tubes
-village egg's yellow (not bright)
-red style (no one has yellow in two hours walking)
-no one has black lobes
I saw only one specimen with dark tube near Uschak, but I was exploring hills North of city.
Janis
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Janis, just north and north west part of city, yes there is with red and pale style quite lots! also with black lobes! But just near city not far away!.
If you remenber I have post some pictures from that part last year.
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Here are a few pics of C. chrysantus,
From same habitation of C. biflorus caelestis. They were living very happy together and I have seen only one hybrid in so many crocuses.
But this time again this chrysantus very different then the other chrysantus location.
-biger and globular shape
-bright yellow flowers
-allways yellow flowers tubes
-always red style
-no one has black lobes
-only one hybrid seen
On my ayes this was a bigger and vigorous one
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Marvelous images from everybody. :o
I'm enjoying every picture lot! ;D
The family of crocus hides so many secrets - it will still make us busy for a long time!
A pity I can't be out there in the fields to explore the unknown :'(
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Thank you very much Armin,
Here are my most interesting two C. chrysanthus. If we accept these as a same sub. species. What is the mather to split the biflorus in so many subspecies!
C. chrysanthus AA
-brigh yellow flowers
-long red style divide near top of anther (I couldn't check all in wild just on my samples are like that)
-never has black lobes
-black spot in throat (while this is main feature for some subsp.)
-tepals are rounted
C. chrysanthus BB
-brown, speckled, striped, rarely yellow,
-style always creamy white - yellow but never red
-anthers always black connective, never yellow
-tepals are slender not so rounted like the other one
Here are a few pics that you will see these detail.
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Hi Ibrahim,
simply fascinating :P
You raised good questions!
If you would have asked me if your samples are two different (sub)species my amateurished answered certainly would be, "yes they are different"!
But who knows? ??? Maybe it is just part of the natural variation within a species.
Conclusion? We need more studies! :D
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Friends, I have renamed this fascinating thread to include Spring months and not only February!
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This time I had chance to see two locations of C. biflorus caricus.
The first location was very abundant but there were not various samples and they were nort part of mountain. It was dark so I could make only few pictures and they were not very clear.
Just two frame!
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And here are some a few frame more from another location in another mount. In this location there were very good samples; striped or speckled on creamy or yellow background. But on both locations I have seen just a few with dark throat most of them were more yellowish.
For me the most eviden distinction was thiny, long and upright leaves.