Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Specific Families and Genera => Pleione and Orchidaceae => Topic started by: YT on February 10, 2011, 04:10:53 PM
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A Cymbidium goeringii from Yunnan, China has started to bloom here. It’s the earliest flower among my (almost) hardy cymbidiums this season.
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What a super colour.... (though I like the greener types too) the markings are lovely Tatsuo.
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Maggi, yes indeed :) I got it at an internet auction site in my country sevaral years ago. The seller said that he bought the original plant from a Chinese orchid enthusiast group at Dall city, Yunnan.
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Thanks very much for the photo. I purchased a very small one of these in the Sunday afternoon sell-off at Peterborough Orchid Show in 2009. No flowers last year but lots of new growths. For the last few weeks I have been watching what I thought was a flower developing. Your pictures confirm that I was right, the stripey sheath is identical. Now I just have to wait for it to open.
As for hardiness it has been in a supposedly frost free greenhouse for the past two winters but the temperature has definitely dipped below zero quite often, certainly my heating system simply couldn't cope with -14 last December.
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Do you grow them in the inorganic mixtures they traditionally use in Japan Tatsuo? The mixtures with kiryu and akadama?.
And what potting compost have you been growing it in Steve?
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I´d like to get more clones in stock, but they are difficult to get here....
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Knowing nothing about the Japanese use of inorganic mixtures I questioned the trader and some friends who told me to treat my cymbidium like a calanthe, so I popped it in a bark, moss, gravel and perlite mix. It seems to like it, but I'm not saying that it's what anyone else should use, after all my experience is one plant for two years. The plant overwinters in a frost-freeish greenhouse, then spends the summer outside in dappled shade
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Steve,
The unusual thing about Cymbidum goeringii is that no one seems to agree on a good cultivation method. People who try to grow them in pure Kiryu like they often do in Japan usually fail in Europe. Too much organic content however also seems to be ineffective and let's them rot so mixing in soil seems to be a nogo. Even regarding the cold-hardiness it seems it really depends on the provenance of the clones, only very few from specific locations in Japan seem to be able to take some frost. So the more I ask, the more the opinions seem to disagree. I have them in a mix of medium orchid bark with Akadama and Kiryu, a sort of intermediate solution but it is too early to tell if they like it or not as I only have them for a short while.
Pascal
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Whilst I've grown dactylorhizas for years it's only in the past five years that I've branched out into cypripediums, ophrys and all the other wonderful "hardies" and the one thing I'm certain of is that the more you read and the more people you talk to, then the more confused you become.
But in the end I guess it comes down to the suck it and see approach. It's expensive when you lose plants but the only way to really know what will grow in your conditions is to grow them yourself.
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Do you grow them in the inorganic mixtures they traditionally use in Japan Tatsuo? The mixtures with kiryu and akadama?.
Hi Pascal, yes I use inorganic mixture, mainly KANUMA (hard type, we call NIKKO) with some baked AKADAMA and pumice, little charcoal chips and obsidian perlite. I don't think pure KIRYU is good for Cymbidum goeringii even in Japan.
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Do you grow them in the inorganic mixtures they traditionally use in Japan Tatsuo? The mixtures with kiryu and akadama?.
Hi Pascal, yes I use inorganic mixture, mainly KANUMA (hard type, we call NIKKO) with some baked AKADAMA and pumice, little charcoal chips and obsidian perlite. I don't think pure KIRYU is good for Cymbidum goeringii even in Japan.
Really? Kanuma? Isn't that too acidic? The bag of Kiryu I have has a picture of C. goeringii on it so I am a bit surprised.
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Really? Kanuma? Isn't that too acidic? The bag of Kiryu I have has a picture of C. goeringii on it so I am a bit surprised.
Why my C. goeringii plants look good on too acidic formula? ;D ;D ;D
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A very nice variety of C.lianpan, Chinese name means HEART TO HEART.
Happy Valentine's Day！
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Really? Kanuma? Isn't that too acidic? The bag of Kiryu I have has a picture of C. goeringii on it so I am a bit surprised.
Why my C. goeringii plants look good on too acidic formula? ;D ;D ;D
If it works, it works.... ;) It is just the first time I heard of using Kanuma with C. goeringii. All Japanese growers I have spoken to use different mixtures from pure Kiryu to very exotic mixtures (but all have different recipes, none use the same). Just shows experimenting is worth it, too bad the more unusual forms are expensive over here. Roughly what % of each do you use?
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If it works, it works.... ;) It is just the first time I heard of using Kanuma with C. goeringii. All Japanese growers I have spoken to use different mixtures from pure Kiryu to very exotic mixtures (but all have different recipes, none use the same). Just shows experimenting is worth it, too bad the more unusual forms are expensive over here. Roughly what % of each do you use?
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Hello, let me show some situ pictures for explain what kind of soil of goeringii's in the wild.
These picture were taken in Anhui pro. of China, Dabieshan mountain. altitude about 500-600meters, climate is similar to Shanghai city, but a little cooler because forest and higher. Climate record of Shanghai can be found on line easily....
Goeringii like acid soil because it grow with Camellia sinensis，I attached one picture of Asarum dabieshanense to show situ soil---loam + gravel, low orgnic, I test the pH is 5.2
Though the soil is acid, Cym goeringii can tolerate pH near to 7.0.
I heard some European purchased Japanese colorful goeringii, but die soon. it is same in China too, maybe these plants from greenhouse and sensitive to ordinary garden climate. they need 1 or 2 year to accept their new home.
My compost is made of [Akadama or Kanuma or other inorgnic clay(sera mit?) :perlite or pumice:bark=2:2:1, too much inorgnic clay maybe storage too much water for roots. This compost fit to most of terrestrial Cymbidium, except Cymbidium qiubeiense， this species from lime stone area, need raise pumice to 60% in compost.
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A very nice variety of C.lianpan, Chinese name means HEART TO HEART.
Happy Valentine's Day！
yijiawang, how nice to share us your lovely flowers in good timing! I got an exactly same variety C. lianpan '心心相印' this winter and am looking forward to bloom it :) And thank you very much for your intelligible explanation. Happy Valentine's Day to you, too ;)
It is just the first time I heard of using Kanuma with C. goeringii. All Japanese growers I have spoken to use different mixtures from pure Kiryu to very exotic mixtures (but all have different recipes, none use the same). Just shows experimenting is worth it, too bad the more unusual forms are expensive over here. Roughly what % of each do you use?
Pascal, this is my soil formula. If you think anything about this, C. goeringii and C. lianpan look good with this soil here, that's all. Perhaps it should be better to ask your Japanese friends again. Sorry to my poor English ability.
40% NIKKO (hard type KANUMA) 日光砂
15% KANUMA 鹿沼土
15% hard type AKADAMA 硬質赤玉
15% natural pumice 天然軽石
10% obsidian perlite 黒曜石パーライト
a bit charcoal chips 炭
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A mixture that will produce good results in one place cannot be relied upon to do the same in other climatic or cultural conditions. That is why Ian always says (e.g. in the Bulb Log)that a recipe is a recipe for our conditions.
It is useful to hear what other growers use but in the end we must each experiment to see what works best for our conditions., where there may be more or less humidity, extremes of temperature etc.
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Thank you Maggi, that is just what I would like to say ;)
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Thank you Maggi, that is just what I would like to say ;)
Thanks Tatsuo.
You do a good job of expressing yourself in English, I must say....and Yijia, too..... better than we Brits might manage in Japanese or Chinese, for sure! English is such a crazy language.
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Tatsuo & Yijia, thanx for the info, very helpful! I have never heard of the hard form of Kanuma being available here in Europe but am going to look for it.
And yes Maggi, I am experimenting to see what works in my situation, hence my question what others grow them in. But I regret I have fallen for the charm of this Cymbidium section with species with only a few flowers, I should have stuck to the Asarum and Arisaema...... :-\
I was told they were quite easy (with goeringii being the best to start with) but only later on I heard that none seemed to agree on how to grow them. And it also apparantly depends on where the plants of goeringii come from how it responds, Sikkim, China, Korea, Japan or any of the selections....sigh...So growing one clone well doesn't automatically mean another clone responds the same way if treated the same. The same for the supposed hardiness of this species, some clones are reasonably hardy, some don't depending on their origin.
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I know the problems, Pascal... they exist in so many other plants... Clanthe for exam ple... hte origin can have a great impact on the hardiness. Ah well, it keeps us busy, I suppose, trying so hard to please our plants!
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I heard some European purchased Japanese colorful goeringii, but die soon. it is same in China too, maybe these plants from greenhouse and sensitive to ordinary garden climate. they need 1 or 2 year to accept their new home.
Much also depends on the condition the plants are in once you receive them!
I will not go into too much details but lets say that from a selection of colourful Cym. goeringii purchased many, many years ago I still only have 1 real plant (which attempted to flower for the first time last winter) and 3 wannabe plants... all the rest have perished!
About 2 years ago I laid my hands on, again, selected clones sourced from Japan and these where in much better condition . First plants from that purchase are in flower now.
My compost is made of [Akadama or Kanuma or other inorgnic clay(sera mit?) :perlite or pumice:bark=2:2:1, too much inorgnic clay maybe storage too much water for roots. This compost fit to most of terrestrial Cymbidium, except Cymbidium qiubeiense， this species from lime stone area, need raise pumice to 60% in compost.
Everyone has their favourite compost of course. I just use our 3-mix (bark + sphagnum moss + charcoal), the same mixture we use for our other orchids.
The secret also lies in the pots :-) tall, slender pots are a prerequisite!
Interesting to read that Cym. qiubeiense grows more on limestone, it just receives the same treatment as the others.
Cym. qiubeiense does in general grow a bit warmer than Cym. goeringii, no?
Kenneth
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Tatsuo & Yijia, thanx for the info, very helpful! I have never heard of the hard form of Kanuma being available here in Europe but am going to look for it.
And yes Maggi, I am experimenting to see what works in my situation, hence my question what others grow them in. But I regret I have fallen for the charm of this Cymbidium section with species with only a few flowers, I should have stuck to the Asarum and Arisaema...... :-\
I was told they were quite easy (with goeringii being the best to start with) but only later on I heard that none seemed to agree on how to grow them. And it also apparantly depends on where the plants of goeringii come from how it responds, Sikkim, China, Korea, Japan or any of the selections....sigh...So growing one clone well doesn't automatically mean another clone responds the same way if treated the same. The same for the supposed hardiness of this species, some clones are reasonably hardy, some don't depending on their origin.
Hello Pascal,
Tell you an interesting thing. Beijing botanic garden collected some Cymbidium faberi from Henan Pro in 35 years ago, grow them in open garden , no problem for cold hardy. It is very cold in winter of Beijing city, and botanic garden located on countryside, temperature will down to -20C at the night, so it should survival even in most European countries .
Some north Chinese botanic garden collected Cym goeringii from Henan, Anhui and Zhejiang pro. no problem in cold winter if temperature down to -15C in short term. but Yunnan Cym.goeringii and lianpan can not tolerate -5C .
Gene is so variable!
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Interesting to read that Cym. qiubeiense grows more on limestone, it just receives the same treatment as the others.
Cym. qiubeiense does in general grow a bit warmer than Cym. goeringii, no?
Kenneth
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I forget my plants in flower now if without your question...lol
Cym.qiubeiense is from W.Guangxi and E.Yunnan, lime stone mountain, very nice draining soil. I like this species very much because special leaves and nice shape flower, I collected albino of it as picture showed, long flower term... these flowers keep in shape over 2 months already...
Easy to grow but slow growing because thick roots(like finger) and leaves, it is display that they are from dry situ. So epiphytic orchid compost will be better. Altitude is higher than goeringii, about 1500-2000meters, so European climate will be very nice for it----not easy to be found in Chinese nursery because they can not grow well in warm climate.
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I'll add some more Cymbidiums to the thread.
Here is a peloric Cymbidium goeringii that I picked out from a batch of seedlings this weekend:
(http://akerne-orchids.com/kbx/DSC_3164_[800x600].jpg)
kind regards,
Kenneth.
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Wow :o
Angie :)
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Kenneth, you've got a very nice one! :o ;D
A yellow flowered Cymbidium goeringii from Gùizhōu, China.
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Another wow from me 8) I have never seen this type of Cymbidium, really lovely flower.
Angie :)
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Kenneth,
that peloric Cymb goeringii is a stunner, if you can breed true from it, you will be on to a winner. Congratulations. :)
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Angie, thanks :)
Cymbidium goeringii 'Shu-getsu' from China.
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Japanese goeringii 女雛
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yijiawang, that's beautiful. Thank you for showing. The colours and shape are extraordinary. :)
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yes, Maren, I can not refuse it's charm , though very expensive, lol
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Does it have a cultivar name?
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I do not know how to pronounce Japanese name, but you can check the link http://siroutonoran.sakura.ne.jp/keiran/syunrann.html , the last one . Name in Chinese 女雛， in Chinese means LITTLE GIRL , not sure correct means in Japanese.
Another Cymbidium in flower now in my nursery, Cymbidium lianpan cv.Da Xue Su, means major snow albino. This cultivar is from 1000years ago, a imperial palace of Dali(I think you must know it, Dali is a city of Yunnan now)
I just showed this picture to a friend of mine, who is astonished: cool, this flower is so Benz!
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Thank you for the link. What wonderful treasures. We never see the Japanese type cymbidiums in the West. It is such a pity.
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yijiawang, what a beautiful photo of what's clearly a highly covetable and valuable plant. I'm a bit relieved we don't get these in GB (do we??) or it might be another chance for wallet emptying. Supremely lovely.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/neil4768/smileys/love.gif) I'm in love with them, thanks for sharing them yijiawang
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A small (compared to the standard hybrids) Cymbidium I bought recently opened it's flowers. It came with a tag "Cymbidium spec.".
The plant is about 25 cm with narrow leaves and small pseudobulbs. Any ideas which species this could be?
Regards Thomas
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A small (compared to the standard hybrids) Cymbidium I bought recently opened it's flowers. It came with a tag "Cymbidium spec.".
The plant is about 25 cm with narrow leaves and small pseudobulbs. Any ideas which species this could be?
Regards Thomas
Hello, I think it maybe from big flower hybrid and C.goeringii cross, I saw this form hybrid in Japan, very very nice, small plants with several big flowers.
The yellow one named 月の光,means moon light. the green albino named 春一番，means the best orchid in spring.
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Cymbidium lianpan cv Tai Bai Su(in Chinese 太白素) in flower now, name means white orchid from Tai Zi mountain. Very beatiful small variety of C.lianpan,plants is much smaller than Cym.lianpan cv. Da Xue Su(大雪素)， Easy to grow and fast growing in cool climate. Only need protect in winter avoid frozen.
PS: very fragrant!