Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => General Forum => Topic started by: Maggi Young on January 31, 2011, 11:40:35 AM
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Opening this thread for any questions about growing fruit and vegetables, huge perennials... all that sort of thing...... :D
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Ah, Maggi, how good of you to think of me. I'm one of those alpine gardeners who is presently appreciating his parsnips, turnips (swedes, to you) and leeks while watching admiringly his purple sprouting brocolli coming along nicely; onions and garlic are progressing nicely; potatoes are presently being chitted and broad beans were sown yesterday.
These are all lovely alpines and just perfect for the SRGC member to grow.
Paddy
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As I think you know, Paddy, my own interest in fruit and veg is more towards eating the stuff rather than growing it but I know there are a lot of more rounded (pardon the pun) gardeners out there than I who might appreciate a place to discuss such plants........ :D
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Are you seeking alternatives to all those wee white things, Maggi? ;D
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Oh, Maggi, I am a comfortably rounded man, one who certainly likes eating the fruits of my labour. It is the drawback of snowdrops that they are not edible.
Paddy
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No, Cliff, not really! There are ample threads for that sort of thing already, I believe.
I was responding to a query from a forumist who says he has "several questions that I dare not put on the forum because they are very technical or not about alpines or bulbs (roses, fruit, veg.....) How much is allowed to stay "polite"?I know many alpines enthusiasts that grow also those plants.May be an idea for a new section? "
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It is the drawback of snowdrops that they are not edible.
Paddy
It certainly is Stanley :D
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But, we would never consider eating them, Brian.
Paddy
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I often consider eating them, they remind me of little dumplings.
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But, we would never consider eating them, Brian.
Paddy
No I am quite large enough already ;D
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I think a veg. topic would be a good idea ~ I like growing alpines, love growing fruit & veg. Veg. growing forums elsewhere on the net tend to be a bit low-level, but many very accomplished gardeners seem to post on SRGC... would be good to hear from them & about their experiences.
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First requirement of growing fruits, vegetables and especially large periennials, is a VERY STRONG BACK!
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First requirement of growing fruits, vegetables and especially large periennials, is a VERY STRONG BACK!
with a steel hinge.
Paddy
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I don't agree Lesley
What you need most is a strong mind.I have a very bad back and yet I grow fruit and veg.Yes it is painful and no I am not a masochist but no pain no gain.You just have to adapt(no digging method for instance).Where there is a will there is a way.Well most of the time.........And the peelings make a excellent weed free compost.!!!
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What you really need is an O.H. who likes growing the Vegetables and is far far better at it than you ever were.
I did mention growing Veg in an AGS article once. I was accused of heresy!
I know one is not supposed to mention other sites, but Allotments4All is probably the best food growing site for British members and it is not low level either.
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I know one is not supposed to mention other sites,
No worries about that herre at all... we are perfectly happy to list other sites which may be of interest to members. There are literally thousands of such mentions and links throughout the Forum. We are very much dedicated to sharing our experience, expertise and information.
It is useful to have a recommendation for http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/ from you, thanks!
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In general I'd agree with you John, but being a short female of advanced years with a VERY bad back, I find the lifting and dividing of large perennials more than I can cope with nowadays. Vegetables in a loose compost and fruit from the trees I can manage OK.
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fragaria X rosea Roselyne.Is there somebody who grows this canadian variety in Britain?As it is a double purpose variety may be I'll not be accused of heresy like poor Palustris.
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There's a few different pink flowered strawberries out here in Aus now, which is what I assume you're meaning by a double purpose? Some beautifully deep pink flowers, and good fruit quality too. I wonder if the 'Roselyne' has been given another name for it's sale here in Aus?
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Maggi, what a splendid idea.
Welcome to my allotments, five in all of different sizes. As I have little time, they are designed with labour saving in mind: underground trickle hose to save water, ground cover to limit evaporation and cut down on weeding. I use crop rotation and green manure. Saves on digging.
Here is just a glimpse:
Design of my first plot. The greenhouse is used for my Cymbidium collection, gas bottle heating in the winter.
Orchard 6 years ago and last year.
A raised bed of veg.
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Paul , there are several pink cultivars here too like Pink Panda or the red Lipstick but they are only ornemental.Roselyne is said to be a good cropper.
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As someone initially attracted to the SRGC and other alpine gardening clubs largely due to all the wonderful "vegetables" offered through the Seedexes ;), I am of course happy for this thread, but I'd just like to point out that there are many delicious edible alpines (edialpines - a new word for Google to pick up I think;)) as I began to relate on my Edible Alpine thread some time ago...
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As someone initially attracted to the SRGC and other alpine gardening clubs largely due to all the wonderful "vegetables" offered through the Seedexes ;), I am of course happy for this thread, but I'd just like to point out that there are many delicious edible alpines (edialpines - a new word for Google to pick up I think;)) as I began to relate on my Edible Alpine thread some time ago...
Quite so, Stephen, but for those not quite so enthusiatically omniverous as yourself, some info about more "regular" crops might be handy, huh? ;)
See Stephen's thread here : http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3085.0
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Paul , there are several pink cultivars here too like Pink Panda or the red Lipstick but they are only ornemental.Roselyne is said to be a good cropper.
I've grown Pink Panda and it was sterile, although the flowers are nice in summer salads..
I found this pink one with fruit in a garden in England last autumn - the owner thought it was Pink Panda. I've sown some seed, so we'll see. Here's a picture of it:
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I can't find any reference so far to 'Roselyne' in UK listings. :-X
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Quite so, Stephen, but for those not quite so enthusiatically omniverous as yourself, some info about more "regular" crops might be handy, huh? ;)
Yes, of course and I love Maren's veg. plots and in particular the Witloof Chicory, one of my favourites, although mine is in the cellar and will soon be moved to a warmer place for forcing..
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I can't find any reference so far to 'Roselyne' in UK listings. :-X
I think it's the same as Rosalyn (spelling), but I don't know if it is available yet in the UK (not listed in the Plant Finder).
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I have (or have had) about 50 strawberry cultivars but haven't come across Roselyne. Have Rosana and Camara which have pretty pink flowers.
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I grow a couple which I bought in flower but un-named at a local plant market. Mainly for the flowers as they have few fruit and what they DO have, though sweet and very edible, don't really taste like true strawberries to my mind. Not that sweet/slightly sour/jaw aching taste of the first of the season. ::)
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I love alpine strawberries, I only have red ones at this stage.
They fruit from spring till killing frost, yummy.
Don't have any pics though :(
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Stephen Your plant could well be Lipstick(too red to be Pink Panda).The rounded fruits look very much like the few I had on my plant.
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Thanks for that, John!
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John,
The ones I am thinking of are fruiting varieties, not ornamental. Well at least they're sold as fruiting varieties, and some of the pots have fruit forming on them. I've been tempted to buy some to try them. I do already have one, but I'd need to go and check it's name. It has mid pink flowers, but the ones we have at work are much darker flowers.
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Fragaria moschata (the Hautbois Strawberry) was an early introduction to gardens here in Norway in the 17th century. Today it's quite commonly found in old gardens but generally only male or female plants survive. This is the case in my own garden. I've been trying to get hold of a mate for it without success for some years and then a couple of years ago I was given a couple of supposedly self-fertile forms, one nameless, the other Capron Framboise. The former flowered and fruited in my garden last summer. The fruits were a good size, but the Fieldfares got there before me, so I still haven't sampled this one (they are supposed to be sweet and aromatic). Anyone else have experience with these?
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Does anyone have any experience with a strawberry called Mara des Bois which reportedly has an amazing and different taste? Love to get my grubby little hands on a bit of that...
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Does anyone have any experience with a strawberry called Mara des Bois which reportedly has an amazing and different taste? Love to get my grubby little hands on a bit of that...
PM me your address Stephen....
My absolute favourite for flavour is the French cultivar Anablanca which has a wonderful rich aroma - you smell rather than see when it is ripe. (I've got Capron Framboise but most of the musk varieties are difficult to come by)
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Wow, that was quick - will send you a PM!
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Does anyone have any experience with a strawberry called Mara des Bois which reportedly has an amazing and different taste? Love to get my grubby little hands on a bit of that...
Yes, Stephen. 'Mara des bois' is famous here in France, and planted and sold on the markets more widely every year.
It does taste like wild strawberries, and is pretty prolific. One of my absolute favs, with 'Garriguette'!
Zeph
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Interesting! Is Garriguette a Fragaria x ananassa cultivar?
This is a tasty long-fruited form of Fragaria vesca I found in the woods here and moved into my garden:
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No idea, Stephen, sorry!
Both 'Garriguette' (very early, very tasty, but limited production season in spring) and 'Mara des Bois' (very tasty, wild-strawberry taste, very long production, welll into autumn)were obtained by the French INRA (National Institute for Agronomic Research) during the 1970s.
I don't know a lot about their origin. They are often sold as Fragraria vesca 'Garriguette' or 'Mara des Bois', but I don't even know if this name is botanically valid!
Zeph
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I have tried 'Mara des Bois' but didn't find the flavour very sweet. I think it needs a warm spell when ripening to bring out the flavour.
I grow Fragaria 'Red Ruby' which I think is a sport of or is bred from 'Pink Panda'. The berries are small and round and taste good but the birds usually spot them before I do. A pink flowered plant appeared among the red ones. It is taller and the berries are bigger and longer. They are quite tasty but I don't often find a ripe one. I'm not sure if this strawberry is a reversion to 'Pink Panda' or is a cross with a culinary strawberry, possibly 'Aromel'. The red one spreads over a wide area and the pink one is well mixed through it so I don't know if it is all one clone or a similar one has arisen more than once. I keep meaning to 'capture' a few runners and grow them protected from birds to see if it is worth growing for its fruit.
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I think it needs a warm spell when ripening to bring out the flavour.
I think you might be right on that point!
Unless growing it under a polytunnel, mabe? Was yours in the open garden?
Zeph
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Zeph,
It was growing in the open garden. I did get a few fully ripe berries which tasted good but decided it was not a good variety for my conditions.
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Perhaps my almost 24 hour sun in summer will help!
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caution!!!!!!There are a lot of "false" Mara des bois on the market.The true one doesn't make any runners so you have to divide them.
Gariguette is indeed very early and popular in France but far too acid for me.I like a sweet strawberry.
Ciflorette is a new one said to be like a sweet Gariguette.I'll have to try it.
Charlotte(yes like the spuds) is tasty and sweet as is Cirafine both cropping twice or more .
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Gail Can you give some more information about Ana blanca please.Is the fruit pinkish or was it just not ripe?Does it crop once or twice?Is it a good cropper?
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The fruit is ripe when it is that pinkish colour - it doesn't go red. I think it just crops once (but relying on memory is not definite) and I wouldn't say it is a very good cropper but well worth growing for the perfume. My plants came from the French nursery Plantes et Jardins http://www.plantes-et-jardins.com/catalogue/catalogue3.asp?id_sections=57&w1=1236
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Thank you Gail and where did you find F.moschata please.I'd like to try it.Do you have the sp or a cv.There is also a italian cv :Profuma di Tortona(may be bad spelling)Do you have it?
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How's your German? The best supplier of moschata cultivars is apparently Manfred Hans http://www.manfredhans.de/index.html
He sometimes lists on the German ebay site. I tried to place an order once but was having communication problems....
I think I've had Profumata di Tortona from seed (though whether it comes true from seed is debatable) - I'll have a hunt at the weekend for you.
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Hello Gail Not good I am afraid.Only fluent French and Dutch.I guess you will have to taste the fruits of all your seedlings ,select the best and divide those later.Not an unpleasant job!
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hello Stephen,
As you are a allium enthousiast may be you can help with this:
Is there a more recent book about alliums than that of dr.Davies or is it still the "bible".
I am looking for a dwarf form of A.schoenoprasum.Do you grow it?If I remember well it was found on a swedish island.
Do you grow many Phyteuma :other edible alpines.How do they taste? I grew some but they were too beautiful to eat!!
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hello Stephen,
As you are a allium enthousiast may be you can help with this:
Is there a more recent book about alliums than that of dr.Davies or is it still the "bible".
I am looking for a dwarf form of A.schoenoprasum.Do you grow it?If I remember well it was found on a swedish island.
Do you grow many Phyteuma :other edible alpines.How do they taste? I grew some but they were too beautiful to eat!!
Hello John, the Dilys Davies book Alliums, the Ornamental Onions is the one and only general garden book on the genus Allium, I wouldn't characterize it as the "bible" on the subject, although it's an okay primer. You can glean more about the genus elsewhere, such as here on the SRGC pages and in Janis Ruksan's catalog and book Buried Treasure, and a variety of resources, such as the Taxonomic Allium Reference Collection at Gatersleben, Germany: http://pgrc-35.ipk-gatersleben.de/pls/htmldb_pgrc/f?p=265:1:3461246519605790
The dwarf form of Allium schoenoprasum found on limestone "alvars" or flat tablelands on the island of Öland, off the coast of Sweden, it is named A. schoenoprasum var. alvarense. Years ago I had both a nice purple form of this, and a pure white form, from Else Als of Denmark... but over the years the various forms of A. schoenoprasum interbreed that I can't say I have the original plants anymore.
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Hi John
I was just writing a reply saying that a certain OnionMan would be here soon as he can smell a forum onion from several thousand km away and what do you know he beat me to it....!
I have many Allium schoenoprasums but the only one which I'd describe as dwarf (first picture - sorry, doesn't give you much of an impression) is white flowered and I'm not sure of its origin (possibly a variety called Lav which means low in Norwegian). I also have one which purports to be alvarense (from Sweden, second picture) is low, but I wouldn't call it dwarf (I've seen white flowered chives on the alvar on one of the Baltic islands many years ago and they were small but then they were growing out of limestone pavement). The picture shows it on the left with a cultivar "Pink" from the UK and one I received as White Alpine Chives (Allium schoenoprasum v. alpinum album). I can send any of these in the spring if you are interested.
Re- Phyteumas, yes I've had spicatum, orbiculare and nigrum (sometimes given as P. spicatum nigrum), but not enough plants to sacrifice – until recently I’d only seen references to the roots of spicatum, orbiculare and japonicum (never seen this one) being used, but recently I found a reference to the spring leaves being cooked in Northern Italy, so I will try that in the spring. I’ve also sowed more seed of spicatum this winter and plan to grow several plants of this and Balloon Flower (Platycodon grandiflorus), used in Asia, so that I can have a proper taste of the roots. :)
The first picture shows spicatum and Allium rosenbachianum album (I think) and my Kiwi at the back.
The second shows nigrum as it was. Last winter my old plants died and the self-seeded plants were much ligher coloured (crossed with spicatum?)
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John, I can recommend you to read through the Allium pages in this Forum... you will find a great many excellent photographs, descriptions and links to help
any onion lover to discover all sorts of allium facts and identities. 8)
Alliums are very popular plants in the Forum. :D
Some links to start with!
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2017.0 2008
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3028.0 2009
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.0 2010
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=955.0
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1033.0
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4737.0
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I bought my Gariguette and Mara des Bois strawberries from Ken Muir http://www.kenmuir.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=80_117. I find they both need a lot of organic matter in their compost, like decayed leaf compost etc.
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Thank you all.
Stephen I send you a PM.
I grow a cv of chives that is larger in all his parts than the standard one.I found it in a local garden.The colour of the flowers is blue violet as the common one.Sorry no digital picture.
Any idea of what it may be ? A cv or hybrid? The only other onion common in gardens here is Allium fistulosum.
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Allium schoenoprasum varies wildly in size, flower colour etc. There's one variety of Giant Chives which goes under the name "Major". Here in Norway, we have Allium schoenoprasum ssp sibiricum (Siberian Chives) which is much bigger than ordinary chives, given as 30-60 cm in my flora; it grows wild on the far northern lowlands of Norway.
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I have heard that new cultivars of blackcurrent have been bred that need less cold for flower inducing(in New Zealand I think)and tested at a research station in Scotland.Is there any information available?
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John, the Scottish Crop Research Institute (SCRI) is a major institution for Blackcurrant breeding.
http://www.fruitbreeding.co.uk/BlackberryVarieties.asp
I haven't been able to find any info about an New Zealand bred variety as yet.
Rex Brennan, who was awarded the Scottish Horticultural Medal from the Caledonian Horticultural Society in 2007 for his work on thius fruit is a world expert.
The citation for his award read:
"As leader of the soft fruit programme at the Scottish Crops Research Institute, Rex Brennan has overall responsibility for the improvement of blackcurrants, blackberries, raspberries, gooseberries and, more recently, blueberries.
His contributions, especially to the productivity and quality of blackcurrants and to the building and sustaining of close links with the soft fruit industry, are recognised widely as outstanding. Arising directly from this industry partnership, not only has blackcurrant production in Scotland increased by around 60% in recent years but SCRI cultivars now account for 90% of all UK blackcurrants and about 50% of total world production. The health benefits resulting from the higher vitamin C content of the new cultivars and their improved resistance to pests and diseases, have substantially aided the sustainability of the Scottish soft fruit industry.
In the wider field of soft fruit development, his team has just released Glen Doll - the first new raspberry variety from Scotland for 10 years and, in his constant search for new ways to employ his skill, Rex has begun work on neglected crops such as gooseberry. Holder of the University of Minnesota Landscape Arboretum Endowed Chair for Research in 1998-2000 and recipient of the Jones-Bateman Cup for Fruit Breeding of the Royal Horticultural Society in 2003, his reputation furth of Scotland is amply confirmed. With an enviable record of delivery to the industry and the admiration and respect of his colleagues, Rex Brennan is a very worthy candidate for a Scottish Horticultural Medal."
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Here is some info on varieties from the Blackcurrant Foundation:
Varieties:
Variety breeding and selection in the British Isles is all run from the Scottish Crop Research Institute at Invergowrie near Dundee.
“We now routinely select varieties with increased levels of anthocyanins, especially delphinidins, which give the blackcurrant fruit and juice its rich purple colour. Some older varieties are relatively low in anthocyanins, but more recent varieties such as ‘Ben Alder’ are particularly high in these compounds, which are thought to confer major health benefits to the consumer. Future varieties will extend this attribute even further, since high anthocyanin content is one of the core characteristics sought by the blackcurrant industry, for both natural colour and health reasons. By combining high levels of desirable anthocyanins with good colour stability in the juice, the currently available varieties offer consumers and producers the ideal berry for healthy products.”
Dr Rex Brennan, Fruit Breeding Group Director.
The mainstay of the blackcurrant industry for many years was the variety `Baldwin’. Of unknown origin, `Baldwin’ is thought to be over 150 years old, and whilst generally outclassed now in terms of agronomic performance, it is still grown on a reduced scale today. `Baldwin’ has a mild flavour, and reasonable levels of vitamin C, but it is very susceptible to many foliar diseases, including mildew, and the flowers are extremely sensitive to damage by spring frosts. There are several other very old varieties that can still be found in small quantities today, including `Lee’s Prolific’ (from 1860), `Boskoop Giant’ (1880) and `Wellington XXX’ (1913).
The first of the `Ben’ varieties bred at the Scottish Crop Research Institute was `Ben Lomond’, released in 1975. This variety still occupies a significant proportion of the UK acreage, and was released as a high-yielding type with delayed flowering to avoid damaging spring frosts at flowering time. This was achieved by the introduction of plant material from Northern Scandinavia into the SCRI programme, thereby combining high yield potential and consistency. The introduction of `Ben Lomond’ into commercial blackcurrant growing was a pivotal event in the development of modern blackcurrant varieties, and for many years `Ben Lomond’ was the leading UK variety in both acreage and performance. `Ben Lomond’ has a high winter chilling requirement, and its performance in southern parts of England may be affected after mild winters. Although resistant to mildew when released, `Ben Lomond’ is now highly susceptible to this disease.
Released in 1989, Ben Alder offers very high levels of anthocyanins, together with a typical blackcurrant flavour. From a cross between `Ben More’ and `Ben Lomond’, this variety also has a more upright habit that is more amenable to mechanical harvesting. It has fairly small berries, held close to the stems, and again has later flowering, like `Ben Lomond’.
The late flowering character is most obvious in the variety `Ben Tirran’, released in 1990. From a complex cross involving the old variety `Seabrooks Black’, `Ben Lomond’ and SCRI hybrids with some redcurrant ancestry, `Ben Tirran’ is the latest of all the `Ben’ varieties in both flowering and ripening. It is fairly high in vitamin C, and its later ripening provides a means of extending the harvest. Yields of `Ben Tirran’ are consistently high throughout the UK.
`Ben Hope’ was released in 1998, because of its high yields, good flavour profile and especially because of its reduced susceptibility to gall mite (`big bud’). Estimates made in field trials at East Malling Research have shown `Ben Hope’ to be up to 30 times more resistant to gall mite than other commonly-available varieties, making `Ben Hope’ a valuable asset at a time when control measures for gall mite are increasingly limited. The variety derives from a complex cross, including `Westra’ (a form of the old variety `Westwick Choice’, but with a very upright habit that is passed on to `Ben Hope’) and a hybrid with some gooseberry ancestry (from whence the relative resistance to gall mite is obtained). There are several hybrids from SCRI with complete resistance to gall mite currently in trials, but at the present time the combination of positive characteristics mean that `Ben Hope’ is the most widely-grown variety in the UK and throughout Europe, for both large-scale commercial growing and gardens.
`Ben Gairn’, also released in 1998, is the only current UK variety with resistance to reversion virus, a disease which renders the plant sterile and therefore non-fruiting. The resistance is derived from a Russian variety, `Golubka’, which was crossed at SCRI with `Ben Alder’ to produce `Ben Gairn’, and should enable the life expectancy of plants and plantations to be extended. This variety is very early in both flowering and ripening.
`Ben Avon’ and `Ben Dorain’ are sister seedlings from a cross between `Ben Alder’ and `Ben Lomond’, giving high yields, upright growth habit and very good fruit/juice quality. Released in 2003, these varieties show differences in their local adaptation, so that `Ben Dorain’ performed best in trials in the West Midlands and Scotland, whilst `Ben Avon’ was better in East Anglia. The higher vitamin C content of these varieties makes them useful alternatives to `Ben Alder’ and `Ben Tirran’.
In addition to varieties bred for the commercial juicing market, there are several varieties bred at SCRI for the PYO and amateur markets. For these markets, growth habit and juice quality is not as crucial as for processing, and there is a preference for large berries with sweeter flavour. The main varieties are `Ben Sarek’, `Ben Connan’ and the as yet-unreleased `Big Ben’; the latter is currently in trials within Europe including at the Royal Horticultural Society, and has the largest and sweetest berries compared to other types. `Ben Sarek’ and `Ben Connan’ both have reasonable habit and high yields.
At the moment, the most widely grown and popular variety for home growing is 'Ben Hope'.
All this refers to Scots bred types, it seems. :-X
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From what I can find on the net, the varieities grown in NZ seem to be Ben Ard, Ben Rua, Magnus , Murchison and Kimberly. These last two being grown in the smallest amount and thus, I expect, the newest.
All the press releases seem to conectrate on breeding for frost resistence, I haven't found any mention of those that need less cold to induce flowering . :-\
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Thank you very much Maggi!You never stop! even on sundays!
Even if you had two severe winters in Scotland, it becomes a bit of a problem here.We had no more than -6c.Most varieties need more frost than we usually have here to give a good crop.Some years ago I imported several very tasty varieties from Estonia(where they have a large collection) but they give only a good crop after a cold winter.
May be members from down under can help?
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Well, I'm not down under, more like up and over. Perhaps one of the Dutch varieties such as Boskoop Giant might work for you?
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John85 was asking me off forum for the identity of the chives in my "Bunch of Chives" picture which I posted in 2009:
(http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3028.0;attach=150645;image)
From right to left in the first picture (below, these pictures were taken just before the bunch picture above): Allium schoenoprasum v. alvarense; Allium schoenoprasum v. alpinum album; My oldest chives (from another gardene here before I realised there was more to chives than meets the eye); alpinum; Dwarf White; Major?; Sibiricum; Wallington's White, Pink Flowered and Allium forrestii (received as)
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Stephen
Is it not from left to right?
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No, it was right to left as I thought, but forrestii was at the wrong end of my list. Seems to make sense now...
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My information about blackcurrant (and raspberry) vars being bred in NZ is sketchy, mainly from the fruit vendors at my market but here we consider currants and raspberries to be cold climate crops and there is some breeding locally (in the North Island mostly) for vars that will flower and fruit in warmer climates such as around Auckland and coastal North Island where the cold that triggers flowering just doesn't happen to any great extent. I don't think that any cold in NZ would outdo the cold of France or Britain in a half way decent winter so cold isn't a problem for us, except late frosts on the stone fruit crops.
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Lesley
Do you know the cultivars of blackcurrant that are grown in the Auckland area?If they got enough cold there to produce flowers they will do the same here.
With raspberries there is not such a problem.
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You could try sending an email to Ron Beatson at Hortresearch in NZ:
http://www.hortresearch.co.nz/index/page/85 (http://www.hortresearch.co.nz/index/page/85)
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John, Stephen's suggestion is the best one. I can't tell you myself, Auckland being a foreign land to me. ;D
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What is the best cultivar of blackberry?All the thornless cv that I tried (the last one was Hull) were disappointing .The taste of the related Boysenberry was not better.Can you suggest a very tasty one please ?
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I'm surprised about the boysenberry John. Here they are truly SCRUMPTIOUS and made into delicious pies, jams, preserves, desserts etc but never better than eaten raw. They do need to be fully ripe though.
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Hello Lesley
May be I don't have the right plant.Nurserymen also make mistakes!The plant I have is thornless ;is a good grower,produces a lot of fruit but not of the best quality.
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We have an 'Oregon Thornless', not as tasty as wild brambles, but makes decent jam etc ;)
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The commercial vars we have here (it isn't a wild plant, being a hybrid) are viciously thorny. but the fruit is divine and very large, up to 5cms in length and 2 across.
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Lesley,
Can you name a few varieties please,may be I can find some of those in Europe?
With fruits that size the picking'll be easy too!
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What is the best cultivar of blackberry?All the thornless cv that I tried (the last one was Hull) were disappointing .The taste of the related Boysenberry was not better.Can you suggest a very tasty one please ?
I grow 'Loch Ness', a thornless variety with relatively short canes which I fan-train on a fence. The fruits are delicious and prolific. I believe there is a double pink-flowered sport of it called, I think, Loch Maree, which sounds pretty.
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Lesley,
Can you name a few varieties please,may be I can find some of those in Europe?
With fruits that size the picking'll be easy too!
I can't today but I'll ask on Saturday at my market. There are 3 boysenberry growers there. Season finished now of course though we can still get frozen ones. I usually do half a dozen preseving jars, for specieal treats through the winter.
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The best hybrid blackberry is "Cascade". It is also the earliest. It has the same wonderful
flavour as our wild creeping blackberry, Rubus ursinus.
I have pulled out boysenberry and loganberry. Well, I should say I continue to
pull them out every year, and have done so for about 30 years without success.
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Peppers require a long time to grow before they can be put out
in the garden, so I usually start them in February or March.
I read an article in a magazine in which the author had tried speeding
up the germination of pepper seeds, and found that putting them in
a plastic bag and rolling them with a rolling pin before sowing them in
a warm place was helpful. That was an easy thing to do, so I took
the magazine back to the library and got started on my pepper seeds.
I found that rolling was detrimental and was prepared to send my results
to the author, but can't find that magazine. Ah well. I'll report a few of
the results here.
I treated 60 Anaheim seeds three different ways plus a control group.
Within four days I had these results:
rubbed on a pumice: 5/15 had germinated
control group - nothing done: 3/15 had germinated
rolled with rolling pin: 2/15 had germinated
nipped with nail clippers: 1/15 had germinated.
Anaheim was the only one I treated four ways as two of the treatments
were time-consuming.
Others I just rolled or did nothing. Here is a typical result:
Early Cal Wonder after four days:
control group - nothing done: 21/30 had germinated
rolled with rolling pin: 2/30 had germinated
Germination in the examples above meant that the seed had
a noticeable radicle, not that the cotyledons had emerged.
Now, almost two weeks after sowing, there are little green
seedlings but the difference continues, so it is not just that
rolling delays growth, it seems to halt it completely.
Now, where is that magazine?
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Hello Lesley,
Have you been to the market,any boysenberry grower there?
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Not a lot of joy John. It seems the two most grown commercially are Tasman and Mapua which I think are both raised here but not absolutely certain. Tasman is thornless and Mapua nearly so.
I had one in my previous garden trained on a wooden fence. It was vicious but worth it for the fruit. I'll keep asking. Two of the three growers were away on Saturday.
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I hadn't heard of Boysenberry until I came to NZ. It is an American hybrid with raspberry, blackberry and loganberry (also an American hybrid) in it. Interestingly, Wilkin's of Tiptree, Essex grow most fruits on their farms but always bought their rasps from Scotland. My favourite was "Little Scarlet" strawberry jam. A jar (8oz?)of Wilkin's mulberry,another of my favourites and which they grow right by the jam factory, is NZ$25 here in Auckland! :o
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In general for small soft fruits of the Rosaceae, the colder the climate, the better the plants and the fruit which would be why the Essex place bought in raspberries from Scotland. We can buy vars now bred for the warmer N.I climates but though they have a longer shelf life and tolerate warmer conditions, they don't have the flavour of the older vars. Ain't it always the same, whether tomatoes, strawberries, whatever. As soon as the shelf life is extended, the flavour is lost.
I have a small black mulberry tree, Morus nigra, but too small to fruit yet. The fruit appears at the market from Central Otago but I'm pretty sure those are M. alba. Jam can be bought in small quantities, 500gm jar for $6-8. Haven't seen any yet this year.
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About another hybrid berry.I have been trying to buy the thornless form of the tayberry:Buckingham.I ordered it three times from three different places and three times i got the normal spiny one that I already had.Therefore may I ask if there is a member who has one and would be willing to root me a layer.
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I have one, and can layer you a bit to send you next autumn.
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Thank you Anne ,that is very kind!!The tips root very easily.
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This forum should be named: Ask and ye shall receive.
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What is the sweetest tomato variety?Not only the cherry type but also the big ones please.
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Yesterday a friend showed me this nice sight which I want to share with other forumists
Apricots in the Stubaital/Tyrol
- called 'Marillen' in Austria
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What a beautiful way to grow the apricot, and conveniently to hand too. :D
I'm thrilled to see my new little cherry tree is packed with buds. It's a variety called Lapin and I eat lots from the market in season so it will be great to have some at home. I suppose I'll have to throw a cloth of some kind over it to keep birds off.
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Yesterday a friend showed me this nice sight which I want to share with other forumists
Apricots in the Stubaital/Tyrol
- called 'Marillen' in Austria
I must show this photo to Ian... he will be full of envy, he loves apricots.
What a practical way to grow the tree, as well as looking very good there is all the warmth from the house wall to help the fruits.... and there are plenty fruits! very nice
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What is the sweetest tomato variety?Not only the cherry type but also the big ones please.
John, I have asked everyone I can think of what they think is the sweetest and none of them can agree! Usually they spend a lot of time saying that the varieites one sees most often for sale as plants are no good, only good for yield. Or that the "new" types are tasteless... there's lots of that sort of talk but no-one is committing to telling me what a real sweet favourite is!
I haven't grown any myself in a very long time, so I'm no help!
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John, I can't help with the question either but in the summer I have a vendor at my Farmers' Market who sells old or "heritage" tomatoes which are hugely popular. He can't grow enough to satisfy the demand. If you like I could buy a few and send you the seeds. I know that 'Black Krim' is very popular but others as well.
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As Palustris suggested,I went to A4A and most gardeners seem to agree that Sungold is very sweet.Unfortunately it is a hybrid and the seeds are very expensive but a non hybrid form is for sale in Canada.I hope it 'll find his way to Europe soon.
For "normal sized" sweet varieties I have got some suggested but they are not for sale on this side of the pound.
Maggi even if your friends don't agree can you tell us what they suggested please.
Lesley, thank you for your offer.That is very very kind.But I feel a little guilty .So much trouble for you!!!
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No trouble John, I buy them anyway. Just a matter of eating them and spitting out a few seeds. (I'll wash them before sending. ;D)
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For some reason I haven't previously posted about my favorite perennial vegetable/ edimental (edible ornamental), a woodlander from the Caucasus which was introduced to Europe and cultivated as an ornamental in the 19th century, was quite popular for some years and some people even discovered it was a good spring edible. It died out of fashion in the early 20th century, but individual plants have actually survived from that time in Scandinavia and we have collected material from some 10 locations in Norway, Sweden, Estonia and Finland, now preserved in the Nordic Seed Bank. It was resurrected from anonymity by Swedish author Lena Israelsson around 10 or so years ago. She sent me some seed and I was so impressed by its vigour, taste, productivity and edimentality that I wrote about it a few years ago, for the first time in English as an edible plant:
http://permaculturenursery.com/Stephen_Hablitzia_Article.pdf (http://permaculturenursery.com/Stephen_Hablitzia_Article.pdf)
Since that article, it has been pleasing to see its fame spreading around the world and it is now being offered by at least one nursery in the UK and a couple in the US, but not as yet in the RHS Plant Finder. I have personally sent seed to some 200 people around the world as I've been the only source of seed it seems... Sergey Banketov from the Caucasus has kindly collected wild seed for me on a couple of occasions and the wild plants were distinct from the Scandinavian material. Summer 2010, BBCs Alys Fowler visited me and my old growth Hablitzia (wow!) for 3 days researching her latest book that was published in the autumn (Thrifty Forager) and in that she profiles this plant in a chapter from my garden entitled ”The Modern Monk” (that's me apparently ;))
Well, what prompted this is that up here in the frozen wastelands, Hablitzia, the Caucasian Spinach, is one of the few plants that can be foraged in mid-winter and I added a few tasty shoots to a salad at the weekend. Here is the root mound of my now 10-year old plant with some 200 shoots. Incidentally, it has never been fertilised and continues to grow in vigour, despite the fact that I pick it (cut and come again) from early April to mid-May. It then quickly climbs to some 4m during the early summer... It is the sole species of its genus and belongs to the Amaranthaceae (was Chenopodiaceae).
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John, I'll jump off the fence and say that the sweetest tomato by far is 'Sungold'. Available from my good friends at T&M. :P :P
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There is no need to be subjective about which tomato is sweetest.
Some fruit growers, particularly grape growers, use some sort of
gizmo to measure the sweetness of the fruit.
Of course, sweetness alone won't make a good-tasting tomato. I
was disappointed in so many tropical fruits that were only sweet,
with no counterbalancing acid or other flavours.
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Great post Diane. ;).
The question was the sweetest and if T&M are willing to give you your money back if you find its not, then I'll bet the legal tests have been done, and it is. ::) ::).
I don't believe its the best variety by far however, and we stopped growing it two years ago for the very reasons you mention :) :)
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Lesley, I think you'll find they are Morus niger as the fruit of Morus alba is very insipid and not worth growing. We fruited M.niger for the first time last year, ( we planted the tree 6 years ago ) and thought the fruit was worth the wait :), but compared to other fast growing fruits, berries etc., probably money can be spent better elsewhere. In Taiwan we had Morus growing in the neighbours garden, probably decades old trees. Never went short of fruit pies!! :-[ :-[ :-[.
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Stephen,
I enjoyed your article. I'm surprised at the seed crop failures mentioned
in it, because your photo shows a plant that must have enough seeds for
an entire allotment garden.
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You are probably right Ron, about the species of mulberry fruit at the market. I had some the other day and they were delicious, and large. Isn't M albus the one grown to feed silkworms?
I have some seed of old tomato vars for John85 but as yet he hasn't sent me an address I can send them.
Incidentally, the seed from the mulberries won't germinate. Why is that? I was told it wouldn't but decided it would for me. But it won't. ???
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I'm pretty sure that the Bombyx mori, the Mulberry Silkworm will take both species of Mulberry Lesley, but I think ( ::)) the white is the quickest grower and therefore was the plant of choice for the silk farms. I stand to be corrected however. If you had large fruit it is almost certainly M.nigra. They taste lovely don't they, like nothing else, but unless you are in the tropics the yield is not too good.
I have a large amount of lit on the subject and will get back to you on the seed issue, although I think it is an issue of vegetative propagation leading to sterilisation. I will confirm ( or not!)
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Stephen,
I enjoyed your article. I'm surprised at the seed crop failures mentioned
in it, because your photo shows a plant that must have enough seeds for
an entire allotment garden.
It seemed to be self-incompatible...I now have several plants in a different part of the garden and there are masses of seeds and they self-seed en-masse
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Lesley, apparently seed can be germinated but both nigra and alba are always grafted onto seedling rootstock. As far as I can ascertain from the silk guys! 8) Hope this helps.
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http://permaculturenursery.com/Stephen_Hablitzia_Article.pdf (http://permaculturenursery.com/Stephen_Hablitzia_Article.pdf)
... my old growth Hablitzia (wow!) for 3 days researching her latest book that was published in the autumn (Thrifty Forager) and in that she profiles this plant in a chapter from my garden entitled ”The Modern Monk” (that's me apparently ;))
That sounds an interesting spinach.
will post pic of Basella alba when I get a chance!
cheers
fermi
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Ron
You don't need to live in the tropics to have a good crop of fruit from Morus nigra.I know a old tree in a garden close to Brussels that produces a lot of fruit.May be there are different clones.But even without fruit it is a beautiful tree that doesn't need a lot of space.
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Agreed John. We have one in our garden. Beautiful foliage colours. We cropped for the first time last year, ;D ;D
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Ron
You don't need to live in the tropics to have a good crop of fruit from Morus nigra.I know a old tree in a garden close to Brussels that produces a lot of fruit.May be there are different clones.But even without fruit it is a beautiful tree that doesn't need a lot of space.
I've tasted mulberries (both nigra and alba) grown in Norway. Although it is some years ago I remember the berries as tasty.
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This is the Basella alba "Malabar Spinach" which we got as "Climbing Spinach" from a local nursery.
The glutinous nature of the uncooked leaf makes it less attractive for raw salads but I still like it as a substitute for cooked spinach.
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
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Fermi: Re-Basella - Is it perennial with you? I hadn't realised it was perennial before last year and I have two plants growing in pots I'm trying to overwinter. One is dead.
I have to grow mine indoors here, and they produce a useful amount of leaf pot-grown..
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Morus alba is hardy up here. I have two plants which are about 10 years old from seed, so maybe they will start producing in the next couple of years.... Morus alba tatarica is often said to be the most hardy, but it didn't make it here.
Below are a few pictures, including some more unusual ones:
1. Morus australis (Korean Mulberry) Lund Botanical Garden, Southern Sweden
2. Morus cathayensis, Hilliers Arboretum, UK
3. Morus alba nigrobacca (Black White Mulberry) Copenhagen
4. Morus yeddoensis (Leiden, Belgium) - can't find this species anywhere
5. Morus nigra Copenhagen
6. Morus alba with single fruit just north of here Frosta, Norway
And look at these wonderful Shahtoot Mulberries (shame they aren't very hardy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK8deXc4N0s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLanp63HWWE
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Morus alba is hardy up here. I have two plants which are about 10 years old from seed, so maybe they will start producing in the next couple of years.... Morus alba tatarica is often said to be the most hardy, but it didn't make it here.
Stephen, once I thought of planting Morus in my garden - however, I decided they get too big so I planted Sequioa and Sequoiadendron instead ;D
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;D ;D ;D
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I have a small (60cms) Morus nigra but I'll be lucky to have fruit in my lifetime I suppose. The main complaint of the people I know who grow it is that the birds, having gorged on the fruit, then fly over the clothesline dropping what birds drop and staining the washing.
Here are the ones I've been eating from the market. When I took the picture they looked totally black but my camera is playing up and it was also a very bright day on Saturday.
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Here are a few other things I bought on Saturday
The Louisa plum is my favourite. It has a wonderful sweet flavour, very juicy and is sweet right to the free stone. Many other plums are very sour at their centres.
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That is some seriously good looking produce Lesley. ;D ;D ;D. And very healthy with it! ;)
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I'm thinking the plums are probably best as they are, but this sounds good too. ;D ;D ;D.
http://sourdough.com/forum/plum-tart-alsacienne (http://sourdough.com/forum/plum-tart-alsacienne)
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It does indeed Ron. I'm Manager of Otago Farmers' Market www.otagofarmersmarket.org.nz and have been there for the whole of its 9 year life (we'll be 9 next Saturday). I started as a plant vendor then in the winter when many of my little plants, dwarf bulbs, primulas and others were underground and I had a break for a couple of months, the Manager's job came up and I figured I could do it as well as anyone since I knew the market intimately. 22 applicants and they picked me. :D It is owned/run by a charitable trust and is generally accfepted as being the best in New Zealand and one of the best in the world. We have many visitors from all over the world who say they've never been to a better market. Last Saturday we had the American TV Co CBS filming for a cooking programme to be shown in the USA. We have a mobile kitchen on site with a resident chef (she trained with Jamie Oliver) and she uses market produce of course.
Now I buy all my fruit, vegs, meat, eggs there (except bananas and oranges which we don't have - only Otago crops - and kumeras, sweet potatoes to you) cheese except hard, cheddar types and much of my bread as well.
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Fermi: Re-Basella - Is it perennial with you? I hadn't realised it was perennial before last year and I have two plants growing in pots I'm trying to overwinter. One is dead.
I have to grow mine indoors here, and they produce a useful amount of leaf pot-grown..
Hi Stephen,
We only got this in spring, so it hasn't seen a winter yet! It seems to be setting lots of juicy black "berries" so it might come up from seed!
[attachthumb=1]
cheers
fermi
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Now that's what I call a Farmers Market, Lesley, :o 8) 8). Beats the things we have around here into a 'cocked hat'. Shows what can be done and I will be using your example to push a few people believe me.
Nora and I are totally 'self sufficient' in fruit, veg and eggs, and often have a surplus. With no 'sensible' Farmers Markets nearby, we have tried to give our surplus to 'needy' organisations. We always get told that the have to buy from X ( usually a chain supplier) as that is specified by the rules and regulations. So even though our produce is free and super fresh each day, it ends up on the compost a lot of the time! >:( :( :(. If I thought it would be used in care for homeless, or elderly, or such, then I'd bend my back even more and grow even more to give. I can buy 500 cabbage seeds ( for example ) for 50p. Each could produce a cabbage but doesn't. We only eat 20 per year! Rest is waste. :( :( :(. Sorry for my rant, but seeing your wonderful market, reignited what our ( Nora and I ) lifestyle was meant to be about. Thanks Lesley ;)
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I don't think our growers are bound by such restraints, amateur gardeners I mean, though there is a lot of regulation around the supply of commercial produce, and more coming very soon with a new Food Bill before Parliament at present. But many home gardeners and smallholder farmers give their surplace to the food banks (it offends me that there should have to BE food banks in NZ when our whole ethos since early settlement has been around the production of food for ourselves and the world) and to organizations such as the Women's Refuges. I know one couple who take 5 dozen free range eggs to the local women's refuge every week and they're very gratefully received, underfunded as such places always are.
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Hi Stephen,
We only got this in spring, so it hasn't seen a winter yet! It seems to be setting lots of juicy black "berries" so it might come up from seed!
cheers
fermi
Those seed are ready! I have propagated by seed in the past, but it would be nice if I could overwinter it!
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It does indeed Ron. I'm Manager of Otago Farmers' Market www.otagofarmersmarket.org.nz and have been there for the whole of its 9 year life (we'll be 9 next Saturday).
Yes, amazing market! Are there any Maori vegetables/stalls? I once visited the Otara Maori market in Auckland to witness how important the cosmopolitan weed Sonchus olearceus is to the Maori, and right enough pretty much all the vegetable stalls had this plant for sale. Do you also see it down there? This is based on an earlier tradition of using perennial native Sonchus kirkii - love to get my hands of seed of that one one day, but it's a protected plant I believe...Here it is in the Threatened Garden of the Auckland Botanics:
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Lesley, what would you say was the reason for your market being so successful? So many are bland and quickly succumb to invasion by large bulk producers, selling mediocre product. How do you select who can 'have a pitch' so to speak?
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Stephen, we have no Maori stallholders as such. No special reason for that, it's just worked out that way. We do have Asian vegetables in quantity sold by the local Chinese market gardeners who have been in the area as long as or longer, in some cases than the European settlers. As you can imagine the Asian vegetables are hugely popular with our large Asian student population. Many NZers have some proportion of Maori blood and one of these has a stall where she sells "hangi" meat and vegetables. Hangi is a method of cooking in the ground. A pit is dug and lined with hot stones and green stuff. The food, mainly meats and the chunkier vegs like pumpkin, potatoes, carrots etc, is put in wire baskets then placed in the pit and covered with hot stones, greenery and soil. All this is lifted out after some hours and is beautifully cooked and tender. This method of cooking is still used extensively by Maori especially for parties or any kind of celebration, funerals etc. The Maori is tremendously hospitable and feeds not only his family but maybe 100s of people at such gatherings. Seafood, especially shellfish, is cooked the same way.
I haven't been to the Otara market but it is a hugely successful affair with every kind of fruit and vegetable as well as clothing, crafts etc, so is not like our farmers' market.
Ron the success of our market is something we often wonder about and there are several reasons I think. It was the right idea at the right time so far as Dunedin was concerned. There were a couple other farmers' markets in NZ at the time but somehow, the Dunedin population, about 110,000 just took to it like a duck to water and it has never looked back. On one memorable day when we did a gate count, we had 10,000 people on site through the morning. As a normal thing we have about 8,000 regardless of weather. That is one reason for the success. We are predictable in that we have the market every Saturday (except if Christmas Day falls on a Saturday) regardless of weather, rain, hail, snow or whatever, we'll be there (me at 6am!). Then we have always been very strict about the produce being local (Otago) and sold by the people who grow or raise it - or make, bake, brew whatever. It is ONLY a food market, no crafts or other stuff.
Another great advantage we have over any other in the country is that we have around 25,000 university and polytech students all living within walking distance of the market. In the early days they came to get a bacon buttie or a crepe for breakfast but now they come for meat and vegetables and everything else, to feed their flats.
Some people who don't shop at the market say they don't because it is too expensive and it is true there are luxury items (cherry and pinot noir sauce!) but the bulk of vegetables are a bit cheaper than the supermarkets and meat and fruit are cheaper, often a lot cheaper. Apples in the supermarket are around $3.50 to $3.99 a kilo, and less than $2 at the market. The current stone fruit is all at least a dollar a kilo cheaper and it was picked off the trees yesterday, not as much as a week ago. Red and silver beet last for two weeks if we want them to whereas what comes from the supermarket is wilted by tomorrow. I could go on for ages.
The process for becoming a vendor is reasonably strict. Someone wanting stall space makes an application to the Otago Farmers' Market Trust who consider it and give the decision. The product must be food, must be local, the person selling it must be the person (or family) who grows it. The Trust looks for vendors who will be permanent, year-round vendors and nowadays when we have no spare space, the product must be something either new, or that we haven't enough of. A balance is kept. Two stalls sell free range eggs. We have half a dozen meat vendors, about 15 who sell fruit and or vegetables exclusively. There are a maximum of 7 plant vendors. Some are seasonal of course. Small season for blueberries, the mulberries above, figs, asparagus and a number of other things. Cherries last about 6 weeks while apricots are for 3 months, depending on variety.
We encourage organic produce but don't insist on it. Basically, if it's legal, it's OK. Products fall into three categories, fresh produce (fruit, vegs, meat, local fish, eggs, honey, milk, nuts of various kinds, garlic, herbs), prepared products, from local sources so far as possible (bread and bakery, cheeses, yoghurt, jams, sauces, pickles, relishes etc, beer, wine, pies, pasta (our pasta maker also supplies Air New Zealand and Quantas Airlines), and "eat-on-the-spot" items, such as the bacon butties, crepes, lamb kebabs, vegetarian dishes from a specifically vegetarian stall holder and we have two coffee stalls, both importing and roasting their own beans since these obviously are not an Otago crop. Other things as well including the plant and flower stalls. We have a total of 95 vendors registered to sell, depending on their season and we have between 60 and 70 on any given day, even through the winter. Our stallholders include a Muslim woman, a Jewish couple, a Russian, two Frenchemen (coffee and the crepes), Chinese, Thai, Dutch, Germans, English and others from time to time so there's a good mix of nationalities (all NZers) as well as produce. The market has become over the years a great social place. People come to shop yes, but also to meet their friends and families and have coffee and something to eat and a chat.
We have visitors from every part of the world and it's one of the main tourist attractions in Dunedin now, a little different from the albatrosses and penguins. We have been filmed for Japanese, American, UK, USA, and German TV shows and it's rare that there's no film crew from somewhere, on site on a Saturday morning. Local TV too of course. We have visitors from among the rich and famous who have heard about us - including, if you are an opera fan, the great Dame Kiri Te Kanawa, NZ TV personalities and the like, the sports people and when the Rugby World Cup was on, a huge collection of people from all those countries, all in celebratory mood. We also get politicians near election time and it's my job among other things to tell them not to campaign on our site. We have a single (free) stall available each week for local groups and charities to raise funds so have people like the fire service, Red Cross, Foundation for the Blind. schools, sports groups etc on site every week. They raise large amounts of money from donations, and buskers too do well.
I guess this is more than the 3 line answer you expected to your post Ron. ;D I tend to get a bit carried away sometimes. One thing I love about the market is the large numbers of small children there each week with their families. I love to hear a little boy of 5, saying "No Mum, I don't like that cabbage. I want THAT one." I think we're doing a good job when children are learning that fresh wholesome food is a good thing and to be appreciated. These little kids will be the market shoppers in years to come.
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Stephen, I don't know Sonchus kirkii and haven't seen it around here. Does it have a common name do you know? If it's a tender plant it wouldn't be grown in this area. If it could be grown here and if we could get some plants or seed I've no doubt someone would have a go. :D
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A word of praise for the Dunedin Market run by Lesley.... my sister and her family shop there... they go every week, speak very highly of it 8)
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Thank you Lesley, ;D, fascinating, informative and inspirational stuff. And with passion like yours managing it I can understand why the market is so special. I asked not knowing what reply to expect, but I'm very happy with the one I got thank you! Would you mind if I read your reply out to a group of local producers that meet on a monthly basis. We are trying to set up something along the same lines but have differing views of what should constitute 'the market'. I am almost exactly in line with your thinking ( well... all in line!), and think if I may use your example and your words it might just swing it! :) I don't suppose I'll ever get there, but if you'd keep us updated via this forum, I for one will be most grateful. 8)
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Thank you Maggi, a kindly word. I haven't seen Ann and Bill for a while but with so many there I miss people frequently.
Ron, by all means use what I wrote above. Pleased to be an inspiration. I have to admit that sometimes my employers and I don't see eye to eye about certain things, usually on site matter where my day by day experience beats (in my opinion, not theirs) their more "stand back" stance. But overall, I still love my job and enjoy the social exchanges with both vendors and public, as the rest of my week is mostly on my own, Roger frequently going elsewhere in pursuit of the internal combustion engine.
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Stephen, the answer you gave to my query re Sonchus hasn't come up here but is in my Inbox. Not sure what's happened. Anyway, what we know as puha, is the Maori word for sow or milk thistle and yes, boy do we have that here. I didn't recognize it from your picture above but the one in the nursery may be different. It looks very robust. Puha is usually boiled especially with pork and would probably by OK in a salad raw, though bitter. I'll find out from the Oratia nursery whether it is different from regular milk thistle and if so, will get a plant and I've no doubt it will seed.
There's a very irreverant song from some years ago, sung as I remember by a well known Maori quartet called the Howard Morrison Quartet. It is called "Puha and Pakeha" the latter being white or foreign people and frequently used in a pejorative sense, and the song refers to the cannabalistic tendencies of (some) Maoris when confronted for the first time with white settlers. I believe some of James Cook's people met with such an end.
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It does indeed Ron. I'm Manager of Otago Farmers' Market www.otagofarmersmarket.org.nz and have been there for the whole of its 9 year life (we'll be 9 next Saturday).
Yes, amazing market! Are there any Maori vegetables/stalls? I once visited the Otara Maori market in Auckland to witness how important the cosmopolitan weed Sonchus olearceus is to the Maori, and right enough pretty much all the vegetable stalls had this plant for sale. Do you also see it down there? This is based on an earlier tradition of using perennial native Sonchus kirkii - love to get my hands of seed of that one one day, but it's a protected plant I believe...Here it is in the Threatened Garden of the Auckland Botanics:
I have plenty of Sonchus oleraceus in my garden as well as Sonchus asper. All the domestic livestock love it. We pull it out and feed it to the hens and sheep. It is reputed to be high in antioxidants. It has antioxidant activity comparable to that of blueberries http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21928279 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21928279) My daughter had some pet guinea pigs which were feed almost exclusively on puha. They lived for about 10 years which is a remarkable age for a rodent. Non-maori tend not to eat puha - I believe it is prepared for eating by bruising and boiling, nothing elaborate.
Sonchus kirkii has been recorded from coastal sites on the Otago Peninsula but I have not seen it
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Stephen, the answer you gave to my query re Sonchus hasn't come up here but is in my Inbox. Not sure what's happened. Anyway, what we know as puha, is the Maori word for sow or milk thistle and yes, boy do we have that here. I didn't recognize it from your picture above but the one in the nursery may be different. It looks very robust. Puha is usually boiled especially with pork and would probably by OK in a salad raw, though bitter. I'll find out from the Oratia nursery whether it is different from regular milk thistle and if so, will get a plant and I've no doubt it will seed.
There's a very irreverant song from some years ago, sung as I remember by a well known Maori quartet called the Howard Morrison Quartet. It is called "Puha and Pakeha" the latter being white or foreign people and frequently used in a pejorative sense, and the song refers to the cannabalistic tendencies of (some) Maoris when confronted for the first time with white settlers. I believe some of James Cook's people met with such an end.
That's where it went! I looked all over for it, but it had vanished. Little did I know it was in NZ :) Anyway, that's very kind of you, but I can easily check myself by email with the nursery and order over the net and send to you and I'd like to send you another plant of your choice from the nursery for your troubles in growing out a potential weed for me ;)
I bought some Puha on the Otari market and cooked some up that evening in the apartment we'd rented. It was not at all bitter. I've since introduced Sonchus oleraceus to my garden and encourage it to crop on the edge of my vegetable plots (this involves what is essentially weeding a weed). I talked to a Maori guy and he explained that this is how they cultivated it. Managing weeds for food even has a name and is practiced in traditional cultures worldwide – cryptocropping! I now use it regularly in mixed summer salads, stir-fries etc and again I don’t find it bitter, although others do note that it can be bitter (perhaps in winter?).
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I have plenty of Sonchus oleraceus in my garden as well as Sonchus asper. All the domestic livestock love it. We pull it out and feed it to the hens and sheep. It is reputed to be high in antioxidants. It has antioxidant activity comparable to that of blueberries http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21928279 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21928279) My daughter had some pet guinea pigs which were feed almost exclusively on puha. They lived for about 10 years which is a remarkable age for a rodent. Non-maori tend not to eat puha - I believe it is prepared for eating by bruising and boiling, nothing elaborate.
Sonchus kirkii has been recorded from coastal sites on the Otago Peninsula but I have not seen it
The potential health benefits of a Puha-rich diet was something I mentioned in my missing mail yesterday. I read a paper a few years ago which put forward the hypothesis that the regular use of Puha in the diet of the Maori was a likely reason for the low incidence of bowel and intestinal cancers amongst the Maoris compared to the Europeans... This plant is also an important component of the traditional Meditteranean diet, for example on Crete, and many other local diets worldwide as this weed is found more or less everywhere!
So even more reason to eat your weeds!
I understand that Sonchus kirkii is a perennial (oleraceus is annual).
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Thank you Lesley. I will certainly use your post and show your website, as an example of 'best practise'. ;D
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Hybrids of Vitis amurensis
Do you grow some?
What varieties?
How do you rate them?
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This year my Purple Cape cauliflowers have a very strong taste, quite unlike
how they usually taste.
Two of the plants were sown in August 2008, and the other one is only two
years old. I'm not sure whether both sets taste bad. Unfortunately, I generously
bestowed heads on all the gardeners who were at the allotments at the time.
I offered seeds as well, but they won't be wanting any if theirs tasted the same
as mine.
Any ideas about what could cause the change in taste?
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Maximilian sunflower,Helianthus maximilianii
Does somebody grow that big perennial?
Mine doesn't look like the pictures on the net.Only one flower on the top like a Jerusalem artichoke(H.tuberosus)
How does yours look like?
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Mine is'nt quite in flower yet John, when it is I'll post a picture, but there are definitely more than one flowers to the stem.
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You may be able to tell from this? You can see four or five buds on this stem.
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If I remember correctly, the first flower to bloom on a stalk is at the top, but there is always many, many more. I grew this in my pre-digital photography days, and here in Minnesota (USA), it doesn't begin blooming until the end of September. The foliage is not at all like Jerusalem artichoke, and is pretty distinctive among large helianthus spp. Here it is in the wild (late June):
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=455.0;attach=35930;image (http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=455.0;attach=35930;image)
Posted in this thread:
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=455.msg18805#msg18805 (http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=455.msg18805#msg18805)
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Hello Brian,
Are the flowers opening close to the main stalk?
How tall are your plants,mine are more than 8' in rather poor soil .
Rick,
The foliage is that of maximilianii,only the plants produce very few flowers and the flowers are not close to the main stalk like shown on the web
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Rick, Thank you for the link to the NARGS thread -I had missed the updates from this year and so this was a special treat for me. :)
John, are you sure you are not growing a Triffid ? ;) ;D 8 foot already seems a monster- don't stand too close- it may eat you! ;D
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Hello John,
The plants are about 6' in full sun, very poor soil and, as far as I remember the flowers are on quite short side stems, but I will take a photo when it is in flower for you.
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Maggi
8' are the short ones,the tallest is 10',but I am in no danger:I am not edible,just skin and bones!
Thank you Brian,I am waiting for your photo.
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Seeing the Pine Sawfly on a different thread made me want to relate our experiences this year.
Every year we have suffered from attacks of various sawfly on our Gooseberry, Black, Red and White currants, and various Raspberry Cv.s. As we do not use any chemicals, control has been by hand picking, and putting them elsewhere to feed birds etc. This is effective if done at least twice a day, but with the number of bushes we have it is not only time consuming, but back breaking work.
Sawfly larva will drop off the foodplant at the first shake or sharp tap usually. Armed with this knowledge we decided to let the tall 'weeds' grow amongst our fruit bushes, in the hope that the constant movement of brushing weed stems against fruit branches, would put the sawfly off. I must mention that up until this year we had kept the fruit growing area totally weed free.
;D ;D ;D Not a sawfly this year anywhere on our soft fruit. The bushes are buried beneath thistles, nettles, tall grasses etc. and picking is not as easy as in the past, but yields are great, and not a sawfly in sight 8) 8). Now the fruit is picked we'll weed to enable pruning in winter, and see what next year brings with the same regime. ;D ;D
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Seeing the Pine Sawfly on a different thread made me want to relate our experiences this year.
Every year we have suffered from attacks of various sawfly on our Gooseberry, Black, Red and White currants, and various Raspberry Cv.s. As we do not use any chemicals, control has been by hand picking, and putting them elsewhere to feed birds etc. This is effective if done at least twice a day, but with the number of bushes we have it is not only time consuming, but back breaking work.
Sawfly larva will drop off the foodplant at the first shake or sharp tap usually. Armed with this knowledge we decided to let the tall 'weeds' grow amongst our fruit bushes, in the hope that the constant movement of brushing weed stems against fruit branches, would put the sawfly off. I must mention that up until this year we had kept the fruit growing area totally weed free.
;D ;D ;D Not a sawfly this year anywhere on our soft fruit. The bushes are buried beneath thistles, nettles, tall grasses etc. and picking is not as easy as in the past, but yields are great, and not a sawfly in sight 8) 8). Now the fruit is picked we'll weed to enable pruning in winter, and see what next year brings with the same regime. ;D ;D
Sounds a promising development, Ron. One that needs a pretty large area to accommodate the plan though, it would be rather claustrophic in a small garden, I think.
I am interested in your previous tactic of collecting the various sawfly grubs and "putting them elsewhere to feed birds"- my experience is only with the Pine Sawfly and Solomon's Seal Sawfly and I can state with certainty that no birds here will touch either of those types. I can imagine the Pine Sawfly taste pretty awful, because of the resinous sap they're chomping but it was a surprise to discover that the Solomon's Seal variety are equally distasteful. Or are "my" birds just fussy eaters?
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Very interesting Maggi. It is reported that many bird species find sawfly larvae distasteful, but equally reported that they don't. I'm not keyed up enough on this group to make a definitive statement, other than to say that we have for years put them on the bird feeding stations, and seen them carried away by. I would say to feed young birds given the way they are taken. My picture of 'Kitten on Pot' shows one of the clay pots, partly filled with sand, screwed through the drainage hole to a wooden post, that we use to feed the sawfly larvae to the birds.
So I guess ' the Jury is out' unless anyone knows better than I. ;D
Yes, would be very difficult to reproduce in a small environment, but maybe the theory is sound?? If so a rigging up of string or Cds or some contraption may help those with smaller plots??
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Hmm..... if they tend to drop quickly when "rattled", might giving the plants a good shaking in passing not be enough to get them off the fruit bushes/ plants and on the ground where they can be preyed upon..... am I right in thinking they don't climb very well or would they just shin up the nearest stem? Trouble with the pine sawfly is that they get together in large, sticky groups and are not easily dislodged at all..... :-X
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They drop quickly and climb back pretty well we think. Ground beetles and probably many other Coleoptera feed on them definitely, but our wondering is if the adults will lay on 'submerged' 'brushed' leaves etc. As I said its a theory that MAY have been borne out this year. Of course there may be other unobserved factors. BUT if you are always plagued by these insects, and do not want to spray or spend hours picking , give it a go and post your results here. ;D ;D ;D
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We also seem to have every sawfly known to science (at least it feels that way) - gooseberry, geranium, solomon's seal, aquilegia etc etc.
This is a new one, maybe not a sawfly at all, but the same MO. What's eating my mint?
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Hello Anne
What kind of geranium(s) is(are) eaten by unknown caterpillars?
You are frightening me!The only damage I ever had on geraniums were young plants of the cinereum group eaten by slugs and snails or roots eaten by voles.
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Sorry Anne, :( I just can't get enough information from this picture. I've tried blowing it up but it just blurs on my computer.
Is this as big as they get? Is this a current picture? Do they produce any silk? If they are there still, any chance of a closer and/or sharper pic?
I hope someone else can interpret it for you better than I. :)
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Ron could they be Pyrausta aurata larva on Annes mint.Thank you Anne for the Galanthus i didn't think you would recognise my account on Ebay ;D
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The Mint Moth. First thing I considered but I'm not even sure they are Lepidopteran from this pic. Body and legs don't look right. Not sure that that moth even feeds in this way. But could be Davey. Can't tell. Anne may be able to clarify somewhat.
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The Mint Moth. First thing I considered but I'm not even sure they are Lepidopteran from this pic. Body and legs don't look right. Not sure that that moth even feeds in this way. But could be Davey. Can't tell. Anne may be able to clarify somewhat.
Ron i have no idea i just googled mint beetle but found that,its quite a handsome moth.
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;D ;D ;D I think the adult is a beautiful moth, ;D ;D. But is it our culprit, ??? ??? I seriously have my doubts. ::) But.......???
The Mint flea beetle and blue mint beetle larvae usually feed on roots and stems I think. But I am a little out of my comfort zone with this one :-[ :-[
Hopefully the cavalry will arrive... ;D ;D
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Here's a close up of the beastie - I had to go and raid the bin to find them ::) - I didn't dare leave them in situ. However I'll put them on some mint in a jar and see how big they get. At present they are about 6mm long. They curl up when disturbed.
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The geranium sawflies, by the way, make lace out of several of my garden geraniums. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if there's been any damage this year.
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Definitely Lepidoptera, - three pairs thoracic legs, four pairs ventral prolegs, one pair anal proleg. 8) " Curl up when disturbed" - Noctuids. Looking very 'Angle Shades', Phlogophora meticulosa, or one of the Yellow Underwings, Noctua sp. but didn't think the young larvae fed in that way, ??? so probably not ::)
We will get this species Anne. ;D
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I've already got it..... :-\
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I've already got it..... :-\
Oh yes, I'd forgotten that, ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
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The latin name of the geranium sawfly is protoemphytus carpini.
Does that mean that the usual host plant is the hornbeam?
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Still not in flower John, but at least 7 foot tall and you can see the buds growing away from the main stem.
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The latin name of the geranium sawfly is protoemphytus carpini.
Does that mean that the usual host plant is the hornbeam?
That's what I would think on seeing that name John... we need one of the "bug guys" to tell us.....
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It has been a strange year in the vegetable garden (nothing different there then!) with huge crops of runner and French beans but poor shallots and some other early planted crops. In the greenhouse I have probably the best crop of peppers I have ever had, around 100, and given the price of them in the supermarket makes a £2 packet of seeds very profitable. Also had a good crop of tomatoes but many round here seem to have suffered with blight outdoors. This is part of the pepper crop (Gypsy).
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Merciful heavens David, a huge crop - are you trying to feed the whole village? :o
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Have you grown them as cordons?
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I'll leave David to answer the queries about peppers! You will see that we are way behind you John, but of course you are far more southerly. The Helianthus maximiliani is just coming into flower (two out) so here are a couple of photos which I hope will answer your query. It is now about 7-8' tall and I took the photos of the flowers by holding my camera above my head at arms length.
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Merciful heavens David, a huge crop - are you trying to feed the whole village? :o
No, just us! But they do last for a whole year sliced up and frozen then added to recipes when needed. This year with so many we will be able to have some grilled too. Yummy! Just waiting for some to ripen so we have green, red and orange (they face the ones in photos so cannot be seen).
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Have you grown them as cordons?
Each plant is in an individual pot. I think there are 17. They are lined up in the greenhouse in front of the tomato plants. I know 17 seems excessive but I find if I do a few I have a poor season and not enough to last a year. This year is probably the best I have had although I have slightly changed my growing this year by watering each plant every day with a small amount and feeding twice a week after the first fruit has set. Seems to have worked!
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Your kidding, aren't you ???? ;D
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Thank you Brian.You have more flowers.I guess my soil in too rich in N.I'll add some K next year.
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Brian: Does your maximiliani form tubers? They were apparently eaten by the Sioux native american people, but smaller yielding than the Jerusalem Artichoke. I've tried a couple of times but there are no sign of tuber formation, which makes me wonder if I have the correct species.
http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Helianthus+maximilianii (http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Helianthus+maximilianii)
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I grow runner beans mainly for the flowers though I enjoy the beans too. I was a bit late in sowing them this year and even later in planting them out. They are growing well now but the weather and the ravages of the local wildlife may mean the flowers are the only thing I will enjoy this year.
The varieties I am growing are
Desiree
Lady Di
Sunset
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I chose runners that were supposed to be heavy bearers. St George, Moonlight, Polestar, Wisley Magic. Maybe the measurement was done by weight as they produce big pods, but too fibrous - Most have ended up in the compost.
I will have to go to the allotment more frequently so I can pick the pods while they are still small and tender.
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Brian: Does your maximiliani form tubers?
I grew H. maximiliani for about 8 years before I removed it. Just not in the right place and too floppy at 3m. (Wild ones here are around 2m when doing well.) I didn't know about the tubers, but I am sure I would have noticed when I dug it up. And I didn't notice any.
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Sorry not to have answered before Stephen, but to be honest I haven't had a look. We've been away all week so just seen your post. I shall have to investigate.
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Starting to get frosts now so it's unlikely I'll get any runner beans this year. The local deer population have been enjoying the flowers and leaves. One got hit on the road last week but her mum will still be around.
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I think I may have to give up growing autumn fruiting raspberries. If I'd got round to picking off the ripe and over ripe berries it might have helped.
Can anyone identify the ladybird? I've not seen this one before.
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Smart white spotted ladybird Roma. Never seen one of those here.
http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/ladybirds.html (http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/ladybirds.html)
Orange ladybird
4.5 – 6mm (similar size to small harlequin)
Orange
12 or 16 white spots Halyzia sedecimguttata
Cream-spot ladybird
4 – 5mm (smaller than harlequin)
Maroon-brown with exactly 14 cream spots Calvia quattuordecimguttata
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I was checking the ladybird survey site www.ladybird-survey.org (http://www.ladybird-survey.org) and found the orange ladybird, the cream spotted and the 18 spot all very similar. Down the page a bit were three forms of the 10 spotted and one looked quite close to the one I saw. When I tried to photograph it it kept going round to the other side of the plant and I had to go to the end of the row to get round. I got it on my hand but I did not have my specs with me and it was moving rather fast so I couldn't count the spots or study it in detail.
A closer view.
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Well, if that's half the ladybird, it's a ten-spot!
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Well, if that's half the ladybird, it's a ten-spot!
Crikey- Roma's perhaps discovered a new species! :o ;)
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Identifying less common ladybirds seems quite difficult if you are not an expert. Lots of them vary in colour and number of spots. The two sites I have looked at do not say much about distribution so I'm not sure which species are found in this area. I am inclined to go with the 10 spot.
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This is definitely not an alpine! A purple flowered Cardoon/Globe Artichoke - the offspring of a cardoon and a green artichoke which was supposed to be purple (so probably a seedling)
cheers
fermi
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Looking good all year is Coronilla valentina subsp glauca 'Citrina'
scented flowers, evergreen, flowers for 10 months, small shrub, no maintenance.
the perfect shrub for any garden.
Question is can ANYONE find anything bad to say about this shrub?
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It's a tad reserved at parties! :D
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It dies!
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It dies!
That's what I've heard, too. And not like all of us, after a long life - (after all, we will all die in the end, none of us get out of this alive) but here this plant tends to die after hard weather and, even in "prime" conditions it tends to be rather short -lived.
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I was checking the ladybird survey site www.ladybird-survey.org (http://www.ladybird-survey.org) and found the orange ladybird, the cream spotted and the 18 spot all very similar. Down the page a bit were three forms of the 10 spotted and one looked quite close to the one I saw. When I tried to photograph it it kept going round to the other side of the plant and I had to go to the end of the row to get round. I got it on my hand but I did not have my specs with me and it was moving rather fast so I couldn't count the spots or study it in detail.
A closer view.
I would say cream-spot ladybird based of the pattern of spots.
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Silvanberry
Somebody growing it?
Is it worth a place in the fruitcage?
What about the flavour?
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Silvanberry
Somebody growing it?
Is it worth a place in the fruitcage?
What about the flavour?
So embarrassing- I haven't heard of it!
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Roses
After the cold and wet spring nature had to cope with,I 'd like to know which roses are still looking fine with a foliage without fungal diseases.
Here some rugosa hybrids are still fine but not " Agnes"
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We've just had our first strawberries of the year, and our biggest one yet. Guess where Scale Bear (10cm high sitting) has just been on her holidays. More of that later.
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As someone says, "There's often a clue". No narcissus (wild) there.
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I may get drummed out of the SRGC for even suggesting this, but I would quite like to see a whole Subject/Section on non-alpines rather than just a single thread. Any chance of that, Moderators?
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I may get drummed out of the SRGC for even suggesting this, but I would quite like to see a whole Subject/Section on non-alpines rather than just a single thread. Any chance of that, Moderators?
No chance of you being drummed out, Alan - the SRGC is " for people who love plants "
The problem with making a new "non-alpine" section is one of potential cross-overs. We already find this with, for instance; bulbs/flowering now. People get confused about where they should be posting. Throughout the history of this forum there have been posts and threads about all sorts of plants - many of them a long way from alpine - I hope that forumists will see the huge variety of subjects covered and feel free to begin new threads on whatever plants they wish to highlight.
There are already many non-alpines featured throughout a vast number of threads so it would be impossible to transfer those to a special section and I don't think it would be too easy to isolate even more directly non-alpine threads to a new section.
So, perhaps not a new section at the moment, but for sure any new threads are more than welcome!
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Two weeks ago I asked for your suggestions for very healthy roses.Not a single answer so I wonder:
Are you growing no roses at all?
Or are you spraying that much that no fungi make a chance
Or are all your roses so full of diseases that none is healthy?
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I cannot be of much help to you John. We only grow three different roses - one is a Rosa sericea, from seed collected by Alistair McKelvie, one is a climber of an old type - looks a bit like 'Seagull' but is actually the "Countess something" - our friend who we got the cutting material from cannot remember and we've never found it out.... and the third is a pink dog rose/ moyesii type that I cannot recall the name of either!
The sericea and the unknown single pink are both very healthy, no problems at all. The old climber gets black spot but we don't treat it.
I tolfd you I wouldn't be any help!
I have , however, remembered that I had promised to send hips of the sericea to Peter T. in a previous year ----- must remember this year! :-[
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I'm not much help either. I only have two roses. 'Nevada' usually gets black spot. (I don't know why I keep it) This year it has two shoots which are not too badly affected and are flowering well. Rosa moyesii 'Geranium' is disease free and is flowering well this year.
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Small streams make big rivers:already 3 cvs/sp that are healthy.
Some more please:may be you have an experience with the new rosa rugosa hybrids.
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Having worked for years amongst one and a half million roses almost every day I am proud to announce that I don't have as much as one rose in the garden. ;D ;D ;D
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Having worked for years amongst one and a half million roses almost every day I am proud to announce that I don't have as much as one rose in the garden. ;D ;D ;D
Hear! hear! ;)
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Having decided to get rid of every one of the 200 or so roses in this new garden (they are old, badly maintained and diseased, thin growth coming from massive stumps) I'm well on the way to doing just that BUT have bought 8 new ones. What was I thinking of? :-[
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What the hokey cokey in TC's thread, will it be ring a ring a roses here?
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I am in favor of a fruit and veggie forum. It probably will be quite popular
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Yes, Chuck, I thought myself that a Fruit and Veg. section of the forum might suit, being more specific and on a topic not covered much elsewhere. I was going to suggest that in response to Maggi but my internet connection started misbehaving.
On the other hand, it does not look as if a Roses section would prove universally popular!
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Opening this thread for any questions about growing fruit and vegetables, huge perennials... all that sort of thing...... :D
Above is my first post for this thread..... ::)
There have been threads on roses in previous years and, for instance, Arykana has posted many photos of her beautiful roses and other perennials- these can be found via the search facility and we felt that if it were only to be the "odd" thread then a special section was overkill for plants that are not our main focus. If we are proved wrong by masses of vegetable discussions, well, that might change things!
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Two weeks ago I asked for your suggestions for very healthy roses
Don't grow many roses but of the ones that I do, 'Blanche Double de Coubert' never seems to have a blemish on the leaves, trouble free and a good scent.
Alan b and Chuck - over to you to kick start the vegetable discussions - I'd be interested :)!
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Small streams make big rivers:already 3 cvs/sp that are healthy.
My husband, Stuart, grows tender roses in our greenhouse... needless to say, conditions outdoors here are nothing like conditions there, but perhaps conditions in the humid greenhouse may be relevant to UK climate?? (Wildly guessing...)
Anyway, on the off-chance that this is of any use to note at all... he selects for disease resistance and fragrance (and shortly turfs out any that don't live up to expectations... there is also some turnover of cultivars, just to be able to try something different, since there's only so much room in the greenhouse). The current line-up of have been disease-free and very good performers (re. heavy blooming): 'Full Sail', 'Sheila's Perfume', 'Dolly Parton', 'Rock'n'Roll', 'Double Delight' (despite the reputation of older cultivars to decrease in quality with propagation, this one remains good). You can see some photos on the NARGS forum in this thread: https://www.nargs.org/forum/what-do-you-see-your-garden-walks-2013?page=40#comment-23097 (https://www.nargs.org/forum/what-do-you-see-your-garden-walks-2013?page=40#comment-23097)
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John85 where do you live as that would determine greatly what roses you can grow?
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Alan b and Chuck - over to you to kick start the vegetable discussions - I'd be interested :)!
I only grow vegetables sporadically in pots but as for fruit:
I have two small honeyberry bushes - I got my first berry a few days ago. I also have two apple trees with interstem grafts ordered to arrive this autumn. Has anyone else any experience with either honeyberries or interstem grafts?
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You can find some very healthy roses (maybe too healthy) in reply # 28 here: http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10558.15 (http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10558.15)
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Two weeks ago I asked for your suggestions for very healthy roses.Not a single answer so I wonder:
Are you growing no roses at all?
Or are you spraying that much that no fungi make a chance
Or are all your roses so full of diseases that none is healthy?
Rugosas are bomb-proof! Lots of choice of cultivar; see Peter Beales' website. Scots Briars too. Interesting article at http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/growing-scented-roses-for-summer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/growing-scented-roses-for-summer)
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Has anyone else any experience with either honeyberries or interstem grafts?
I've been tempted to try honeyberries but have yet to succumb. Seems to be one of the latest 'superfoods' but I suspect blueberries are more productive and worthwhile? Interested to hear how you get on with them, Alan. The gushing prose and perfect photos in the gardening catalogues (yes, I'm talking about you T&M!) are hard to resist sometimes but there's rarely any mention of a plant's negative points. A few years ago it was goji berries...whatever happened to those? I picked up a couple of plants because they were cheap in Aldi and have thus far been completely underwhelmed.
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We have Lonicera caerulea - "honeyberry" - and I'm sort of surprised that the berries are thought to be desirable to eat! Granted, we just have the plain species, not cultivars that I suppose have been selected for fruit, but I have tasted that fruit also... meh, seemed the same as from our shrubs. To me, they have an odd soapy, somewhat bitter flavour - hard to describe.
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The one honeyberry I managed to taste was quite bitter but I'm not sure if it was fuly ripe; it's my first taste. I bought them after seeing bushes growing at RHS Hyde Hall and learning they are drought-tolerant - very important in my garden. They also produce fruit quite early in the season.
The first ones I bought were so-called 'jumbo plugs' from Thompson and Moran and these were dreadful things, tiny twigs not as long as my little finger. The following year they put on about another 2 cm of growth then shot up to 15 cm early this season. It will be many more years before they amount to anything. I despaired then managed to find a nursery that sold the plants in decent-sized pots, offering vastly better value for money than T&M.
The thinking behind my interstem-grafted apples is also to achieve superior drought tolerance.
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In my garden - about 7 varieties of "honeyberry» - in our country, it is a popular and well-known berry. Et varieties with berries - kegs, there is a spindle, as is olive .
The taste is different - some old varieties a little taste bitter, but mostly sweet, the taste is reminiscent of blueberries .
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I've been growing honeyberries for 13 years, from the time that little was known about them here in the USA. One thing that has been learned since then is that there are early and late blooming provenances, and one needs to be sure that flowering will overlap. (They are not self fertile.) Size of berry, taste, tartness, bitterness, flavor - all hugely variable. Tastes can vary from season to season where I live, also. I would recommend getting select cultivars, rather than the species, if you want the fruit. To me, taste is best described as a blueberry with overpowering grapefruit, and some tannins. But again, it varies widely with the cultivar. In my experience, at least with the older cultivars, berries need to be left on the bush, almost to the point of dropping off, to sweeten to their full potential. Just because they are blue doesn't mean they are ripe. Berries from the same bush may even taste discernibly different from year to year.
In Minnesota, the species can be invasive (by seed). As a non-native, it has escaped into the wild in the northern half of our state, so please be cognizant of that possibility. My bushes are always netted as fruit is ripening. Birds love love them here, and being such an extremely early crop, birds would strip the shrubs and leave me nothing. And then they would spread all the seeds everywhere, too!
Plants are very vigorous here in zone 4, and periodically, I need to severely cut them back to keep the size manageable. I am really surprise at the minimal growth you get in the UK. They are very drought tolerant.
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Thank you Rick and Natalia, very interesting perspectives from different parts of the globe. The minimal growth just applied to the first season of the tiny plug plants I bought from Thompson & Morgan. I'll certainly net the bushes once I start to get fruit in significant quantities. I wonder if my failure to get much fruit this year is down to my failure to net the bushes once the fruit started to develop; I had had quite a few flowers.
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For Pat:
I live in Z8b(Z9a the good years ),so no major problems with the winter but summers can be dry.
For Ralf:
Most Rugosa are indeed healthy but not all:Agnes for instance isn't and it is a pity as it is one of the few yellows
I was told that some gallicas are also strong.Any experience with it?
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John as we don't use that zonal system in Australia I am not very familiar with it.
We have a hot dry summer with occasional rain but not much and usually a 20" rainfall in autumn winter and spring and most of my roses are found roses and also own root roses.
Some gallicas such as 'Charles de Mills' do well but need a winter chill to flower well and they never get to the plant size of European examples.
Tea rose, china roses, Hybrid Perpetuals and damasks should do well. Of course in some groups some do better than others plus the rootstock has a great influence on its survivability. Multiflora rootstocks end up dying after a few years. Indica Major or Dr Huey if you must have rootstocks. But you might have others over there that would do well. If there is a particular wild rose that might be the best to use as a rootstock - but if you are in the US you do have great sources for own-root roses.
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I wonder if my failure to get much fruit this year is down to my failure to net the bushes once the fruit started to develop; I had had quite a few flowers.
Alan - I wonder if our long, cold Spring could have affected fruit set? Although I see they grow well in Russia and Minnesota, neither noted for mild weather early in the year!
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Steve, they are still only small plants. The most I could have hoped for was a cup-full and I went away on holiday just when I should have been covering them with some netting. I'm happy to give them a few more years to get going.
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I've been growing honeyberries for 13 years...Plants are very vigorous here in zone 4, and periodically, I need to severely cut them back to keep the size manageable.
Yes, they get monstrous here too... when they first became available 10-15 years ago, they were claimed to be 3'x3' - ha! The one we removed to install the tufa beds was 15' across and 9' high.
Re. the comment about spring weather, this species is the first woody plant to leaf out in our yard, which gives them some interest here.
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This rose has been growing here for nearly 30 years in what was my parents' garden and now my brother's. It used to be tied to a large Norway spruce tree but my brother had it cut down a few years ago in case it blew down in a gale and hit his workshop (or his neighbour's house). It is a climber but is growing as a shrub here. It gets no care whatsoever but flowers beautifully every year.
Rosa 'Maigold'
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Roma
what about blackspot?
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I didn't look closely, John but I do see some spots on the leaves in the closeup. It can't get badly affected or I would have noticed.
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Roma that is a beautiful rose and allowing it to form a mound is a good idea. A good happy yellow.
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It seems from some of the comments that some Forumists don't like roses. Fair enough, I don't like the thorns; but the sight of Rosa 'Paul's Himalayan Musk' romping up an old Damson tree takes some beating!
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It seems from some of the comments that some Forumists don't like roses. Fair enough, I don't like the thorns; but the sight of Rosa 'Paul's Himalayan Musk' romping up an old Damson tree takes some beating!
;D ;D ....yes, I think the "fashion" for gardens with a square of grass surrounded by an edging of hybrid tea roses or floribundas has put a lot of us that kind of rose garden and those roses by extension!
Big shrub roses or showy climbers are another thing entirely in my book.
I've grown Maigold here and, until an extension was built next door, our previous neighbour had a huge old Maigold that was at least forty years old to my knowledge - a magnificent plant, rambling along boundary and giving good cut flowers as well as being a picture in the garden.
( I have a fondness for yellow roses- had them in my wedding bouquet! Which reminds me that I do know of a very good type called 'Glenfiddich' - strong growing and healthy).
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( I have a fondness for yellow roses- had them in my wedding bouquet! Which reminds me that I do know of a very good hybrid tea type called 'Glenfiddich' - strong growing and healthy).
'Arthur Bell' is another good yellow, whilst we are on a whisky theme.
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Ralph
For a nice rambler without thorns you can try "Lykkefund"
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( I have a fondness for yellow roses- had them in my wedding bouquet! Which reminds me that I do know of a very good type called 'Glenfiddich' - strong growing and healthy).
Here are some good yellows (and near-yellows)
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DO NOT PLANT THESE ROSES! unless you have masses of room. I seem to spend a disproportionate amount of time pruning these as compared to their all to brief flowering period. Beautiful thugs.
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I'd like some thugs that can cope with heavy competition and some shade.I intend to grow them in a wild hedge to make it more impenetrable,specially to deer.Some briars are already growing in it and several" American Pillar".I'd like something even more rambling and if possible cvs very easy from cuttings(A.P. is).
Space is not a problem but I don't intend to prune them.
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I grew 'Wickwar' from a hardwood cutting. I had to cut it back very hard when it threatened to engulf the house.
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When the rain stops or when the ground has thawed enough in the daytime, I've been out trying to dismantle the rose garden left by the previous owners. The plants have small, thin and spindly growth from enormous thick stumps and even if I wanted them there, they are really rubbish, poorly grown and maintained over many years and in most cases rubbish varieties anyway. So the intention is to remake and shape the large bed into an iris garden, ready for NZIS Convention in and around Dunedin in 2015. Yesterday I was almost torn to pieces as I chopped down plant after plant to try and measure and mark a new design for the area.
I have a lot of tall bearded irises potted and ready to plant out probably just after they flower in Oct-Dec but I have also bought - what's wrong with me? - a dozen new roses!! They should grow well with the irises and their colours will be complimentary. I didn't want a rose garden so why am I making this refurbished garden into a ....... rose garden? ::) :-[
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Lesley you have raised a smile here ;D ;D
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Be extra careful Lesley about planting roses where roses have grown before as the new roses will not like it as far as I know.
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Be extra careful Lesley about planting roses where roses have grown before as the new roses will not like it as far as I know.
You could always try the wine boxes Lesley!
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Have to get through the contents first Brian. :) Thanks for that note Pat, I have heard that ground has a sort of rose "sickness" after old plants are lifted and that new ones shouldn't be planted in the same place. Does anyone know what causes this problem or in fact what the actual problem is anyway? I don't plan to have many roses among the TBs, ratio of maybe 3 to about 12 or 14 if my measuring on graph paper is more or less accurate.
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Lesley, you have to let go whoa whoa whoa whoa ...
Lynn Anderson -- Rose Garden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4wcNVbYOQ#)
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Our winter crop of "Black Kale" has an unusual companion planting - Coriander (Coriandrum sativum) has come up from self-sown seeds from an earlier crop.
Not sure how they'd go together in a stir-fry though!
cheers
fermi
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I have one plant of 'Black Kale' planted late summer last year and showing no sign of flowering. I think it looks like a sculpture.
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My beans are doing very well this year (with some rabbit protection). I grow the runners mainly for the flowers. Beans are an added bonus. They are not setting very well. I noticed the keels seemed deformed and found them to be infested with pollen beetles.
Dwarf bean 'Purple Tepee' is setting well so I should have plenty French beans (which I prefer anyway). The warm weather and rain is certainly suiting them.
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Black kale is a very popular plant at Otago Farmers' Market. A few years ago someone brought some rather tentatively and answered lots of questions about it but now it's the first to sell out among the several vendors who bring it. There's never enough. Try it with the coriander Fermi and report back. Roger is planting some this year.
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I've only just discovered this thread, and my apologies to all the contributors but I haven't read it all through so my comments on this year's vegetable gardening in this part of Scotland may well have already been made.
After last year's worst summer in the 40 years I've gardened here just west of Edinburgh, this year is just about making up for it. My wife and I are about to go on strike deep-freezing all the things that have ripened and cropped in large large quantities - we are furiously giving away courgettes, cabbages, beans, lettuces, handfuls of rocket and so on. Nothing must go to waste !
And my two hives have produced 120lbs of honey. Woo- ya !
After last summer, plans have been put in place to install a 20' by 12' polytunnel - am I going to need it I ask myself ?
Garden plants have been a bit mixed with a number suffering from the lack of water. Curiously the sweet peas haven't done particularly well.
Rob
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I also have one Black Kale in the US. It had a big aphid problem in the summer but they are all gone now. Quite a tasty plant
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Black kale is a very popular plant at Otago Farmers' Market.... Try it with the coriander Fermi and report back.
Hi Lesley,
Will cooked it up with coriander for a chicken stir-fry and it worked quite well. :D
Years ago (over 40!) my dad was given some Chard from some Dutch friends - it was a bit different to Silverbeet (AKA Swiss Chard) and we always just called it Dutch Chard. A couple of years ago we finally "lost" it as no seedlings came up in our garden or dad's. Last spring we got a couple of tiny seedlings of something called "Perpetual Spinach" and guess what? It was our old friend, Dutch Chard! I won't post a pic of it as the top leaves have been frosted so it looks shocking but hopefully with spring it will recover. With luck we'll be able to keep it going from seed this time.
It's smaller growing than Silverbeet and the stems are green and don't get tough like Silverbeet stems do, so you can use the whole leaf in cooking.
cheers
fermi
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After about 60 years of growing purple vegetables that turned green when cooked,
I have at last learned the secret to keeping them purple.
A member of a vegetable growers' forum explained that the purple colour is water
soluble. I should have had an Aha! moment every time I removed the cooked
green vegetables from the purple cooking water, but I was always too busy getting
everything onto the table to pay attention.
So this summer I have been serving purple beans, purple snap peas, purple cauliflower,
by doing one of two things: stir fry in oil or microwave the bare vegetables.
Meals are so much more colourful now.
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That's interesting, Diane!
I'll have to try it when we get around to planting the purple beans this year!
cheers
fermi
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Planted out all my water chestnuts today.Quite easy using an old bathtub.