Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: Pascal B on January 23, 2011, 08:51:10 PM

Title: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 23, 2011, 08:51:10 PM
It might sound odd for some to start a new thread for Arisaema already but Arisaema section Clavata contains members that are all early flowering, they usually start rooting in the autumn. This section includes ilanense, heterocephalum, hunanense and clavatum itself but in my view also includes Arisaema negishii. They generally grow at low to medium altitudes in the wild. They are temperate species but usually do not experience frost in their native habitat. When most spring flowering species come into flower the members of section Clavate are usually already dormant.

Arisaema ilanense is a Taiwanese endemic and, although locally abundant, has a very limited distribution range that is not more than perhaps 5 km2. It grows on shady slopes, usually in a humus rich slate. In the wild the flowering period is from end January to end March. The plant on the picture I forgot to move to the frostfree glasshouse so it is a bit earlier. By some this species is regarded one of the more naughty members of the genus given the shape and size of the spadix appendix.

I hope to post pictures of more members of this section when they start flowering.

Arisaema ilanense Jan 2011.jpg
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 26, 2011, 07:49:09 PM
Perhaps someone will identify this species for me, given to me last season as a dormant tuber, named A. flavum but obviously not. I have another not yet out just as Arisaema ?species, which appears to be the same. Remember that this is mid summer in New Zealand but I took the photos today on a dark, wet day, the only day I've ever used my 5 year old camera and the flash has gone off of its own volition, so dark as mid winter! Because of the flash, the spathes appear rather more shiny than they really are. I like it very much and the two leaves are very fine too. It is potted and in my tunnel house so protected from the hot days and strong winds we've had and looking very elegant I think.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on January 26, 2011, 08:00:09 PM
Perhaps someone will identify this species for me, given to me last season as a dormant tuber, named A. flavum but obviously not.

Lesley, I think it might be A fargesii but maybe Pascal will confirm
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 26, 2011, 08:42:17 PM
I'd be very happy with that, not one I've ever had or expected to have.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on January 26, 2011, 08:53:14 PM
I'd be very happy with that, not one I've ever had or expected to have.   Thanks. 

Here's mine for comparison, which I think is A fargesii although it is possibly A franchetianum.  The leaves are distinctive and very large
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: TheOnionMan on January 26, 2011, 08:55:34 PM
I have one that I got some years ago, it never ever flowers, just makes one big leaf that looks just like the one pictured, it is either A. franchetianum or fargesii, but as we have a meter of snow on the ground, can't check labels.  I wish it would produce some of those beautifully striped flowers.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 26, 2011, 09:30:49 PM
Although I think the current treatment of both species is not great and needs more study (particularly fieldwork), by current standards the plant of Lesley is fargesii, the plant of Diane is franchetianum.

The original diagnosis for franchetianum is pretty clear, the one for fargesii is not so at the moment everything not franchetianum "must be" fargesii but what fargesii exactly should look like I still am not sure of and none of the current treatments can convince me, neither Gusman or the FoC. The original Vilmorin plants that formed a large part of the basis of the name fargesii only were clear for the male plants and the female plants seem to differ the most within this group. I actually think there are more taxa than just these 2.

These plants already fall into 2 groups with one having more rounded and soft leaves and the other with more leathery leaves and pointed tips. Within both groups several spathe shapes occur and some of these plants have such unique characters that by normal standards that would qualify them as a distinct taxon. Problem is that very few plants in cultivation have known provenance, most are descendants of recent Chinese imports and we do not know enough about the variation in the field to judge how unique these characters are. I have 6 very distinct "forms" in my collection and I discussed them with Peter Boyce who seriously doubted they would all fit in either franchetianum or fargesii. But the plants of Diane and Lesley are the more regular forms in cultivation and by current standards are franchetianum (Diane) and fargesii (Lesley)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 26, 2011, 09:41:59 PM
To show what I mean, Arisaema "purpureogaleatum" is synonimised by Gusman and the Flora of China with franchetianum. However, the highly inflated spathe, the long spathe tip and portruding appendix (in need of Viagra....) make it very distinct and conform the description & drawing by Engler. In my view Arisaema purpureogaletum therefore is a valid species and the synonimisation is incorrect. And that is just one distinct form.

Arisaema purpureogaleatum.jpg
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 26, 2011, 10:12:31 PM
Thankyou everyone. For now I'll relabel my plant as A. fargesii. I also have from the same donor, A. franchetianum but it is not flowering this year so I can't make a comparison. The foliage and stems look the same though. ???
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on January 26, 2011, 10:24:42 PM
Although I think the current treatment of both species is not great and needs more study (particularly fieldwork), by current standards the plant of Lesley is fargesii, the plant of Diane is franchetianum.
Pascal, I am really grateful to you for this explanation.  My plant had actually been identified a couple of years ago by Gusman as franchetianum but I was never really convinced as to why it wasn't fargesii.  Are you looking at the leaf structure/shape as the picture of mine does not give much information?  I have several pots of this group all with very large leaves and similar but slightly different flowers and I have never really been happy about the identification of them all. 
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 26, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
Diane,

If you read my posts on Arisaema taxonomy you might think I doubt the treatment of all species.... Although not true, it is not far from it. Almost every species I have studied in the wild revealed new data that doubted the treatment of that species and was showing there is still so much to learn. The fact of the matter is that 60% of the known Arisaema are highly variable and there is still a lot of work, particularly fieldwork, to be done.

Although any publication is a representation of current knowledge, the definitive nature of some of these publications I feel is unjustified as it is clear by most researchers doing work on Arisaema that there is still so much to learn and stating "it is" would be premature and a bit arrogant. Often authors present their views in such a way only to gain credibility but that gives false security.

Your franchetianum I am very familiar with as I grow that "weed" myself, I multiplies like mad and comes in a purple and a purple-red form, it is pretty much conform what franchetianum is according to the original publication. The spathe blade is broad and strongly recurved with an appendix that hardly portrudes the spathe mouth, the spathe tip is usually nearly touching the spathe tube. Attached a picture of a similar plant in my collection that is more reddish purple and has a slightly shorter spathe tip. But other than that pretty much the same. The fargesii-type is considered to have a much less recurved and more "open" flower with more auriculate spathe mouth and a spathe tip that gradually narrows whereas the spathe tip of franchetianum narrows abruptly. But there are intermediate forms......ahum....

The challenge is to find out which flower characters are varying and to what extend and for that we can not base conclusions on samples in cultivation, instead we need population studies in the wild. It also involves taking phytogeography into consideration for example as well as the naughty bits inside the spathe and comparing that data with the original descriptions, holotypes and revelant publications. With ~160 species that is a lot of work and unfortunately very few doing it and even less researchers coorperating.... :-[
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: manicbotanic on January 26, 2011, 10:59:59 PM
this opened on christmas
 day ..kept in an unheated room..in a very cold house.
arisaema rhizomatum i believe?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 26, 2011, 11:28:40 PM
Yep, rhizomatum is one of the nicest species introduced from China with those beautifully spotted flowers. Not the easiest to grow though...., it should be grown as you did, cold but frostfree.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Hoy on January 28, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
Anybody who has a clue to this one?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on February 02, 2011, 04:02:37 PM
Anybody who has a clue to this one?


Do you have close-ups of the flower? It looks like a member of the asperatum/wilsonii alliance, a plant Chen Yi used to ship under A-10.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on February 02, 2011, 04:14:37 PM
Arisaema heterocephalum, the second member of section Clavata I have in flower. Looks superficially like a small form of serratum, plant is hardly 30 cm tall.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Hoy on February 05, 2011, 03:07:50 PM
Anybody who has a clue to this one?


Do you have close-ups of the flower? It looks like a member of the asperatum/wilsonii alliance, a plant Chen Yi used to ship under A-10.

Sorry, no useful closeups for the moment. However they can be Chen Yi plants or seedlings from Chris Chadwell. I'll try to get closeups this summer.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: WimB on April 17, 2011, 06:29:29 PM
Two Arisaema's flowering here now:

Arisaema griffithii and
Arisaema ovale amurense (With thanks to Pascal for providing me with the correct name)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 17, 2011, 08:47:22 PM
Wim,

Although amurense and ovale are closely related I think your plant is more likely amurense, ovale has a narrower spathe where the veins are ridgelike and a thinner appendix. Attached a picture of ovale which shows it a bit. Amurense also usually has the broad, fluffy, salad like leaves (like on your picture) whereas ovale has narrower and more elegant leaves.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Graham Catlow on April 19, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
I have lost several Arisaema's this winter but some have survives such as this A. griffithii. Hopefully more to come later.

Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Michael J Campbell on April 20, 2011, 06:24:27 PM
I found this little chap this morning hiding under a Camellia.

   Arisaema sikokianum
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 20, 2011, 06:51:00 PM
Some of the early species: limbatum and the prolific thunbergii ssp. thunbergii. Third is probably one of the most unique in the genus, A. cordatum from S China.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: manicbotanic on April 20, 2011, 10:27:24 PM
pascal
love the cordatum :)
just wish i could get hold of it...
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 20, 2011, 10:38:46 PM
pascal
love the cordatum :)
just wish i could get hold of it...

I have plans to put it in tissue culture for ex situ conservation purposes but it is not the easiest to grow. And certainly not hardy so it is more a niche plant rather than a future hit on the showbenches. It is a cousin of Arisaema thunbergii and kiushianum but slower to propagate.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: jshields on April 21, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
Arisaema sazensoo.  This plant came from the U.C. Berkeley Botanic Garden last summer.  The only thing I did was unpack it and plant it in the garden last summer sometime.  Of the three rather large tubers I received, only two seem to have come up this spring.

A. ringens is just starting to poke up out of the ground.  A. fargesii barely survives here, putting up one moderate size leaf each year, never getting any bigger, never flowering.  A. heterophyllum is quite hardy here and seems to bloom every year.  These plants grow in or at the edge of my woodland garden.  My garden is USDA cold zone 5.  We have A. triphyllum native here, of course.

Jim
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 21, 2011, 09:02:17 PM
Hi Jim,

Your plant is not Arisaema sazensoo but Arisaema engleri (or if we believe Murata and Li Heng in the new flora of China: A. bockii). Sazensoo has a single leaf without a pseudostem and a fat appendix hidden under the spathe (see: http://www.aroid.org/genera/speciespage.php?genus=arisaema&species=sazensoo). It comes from Japan whereas Arisaema engleri is a China native.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: alpinelover on April 21, 2011, 09:26:01 PM
Arisaema sikokianum, a very handsome guy.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: jshields on April 21, 2011, 09:54:30 PM

Your plant is not Arisaema sazensoo but Arisaema engleri (or if we believe Murata and Li Heng in the new flora of China: A. bockii). Sazensoo has a single leaf without a pseudostem and a fat appendix hidden under the spathe (see: http://www.aroid.org/genera/speciespage.php?genus=arisaema&species=sazensoo). It comes from Japan whereas Arisaema engleri is a China native.

Thanks Pascal, I appreciate the heads-up.  I'm just as happy having engleri as I would be with sazensoo, as long as it is hardy here.  I'll mention this to Paul Licht at the UC Berkeley B.G.

Jim
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Robin Callens on April 25, 2011, 10:15:46 PM
Some pictures of reliable Arisaemas in the garden:

Arisaema wattii
Arisaema nepenthoides 'Black Panda'
Arisaema serratum x kishidae
Arisaema lobatum
Arisaema taiwanense
Arisaema species ex griffithii-utile-propinquum complex
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on April 25, 2011, 10:25:00 PM
How ghostly is that wattii!   :o

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: PeterT on April 26, 2011, 10:12:09 PM
How ghostly is that wattii!   :o

johnw
I like It, What are it's nearest relatives and it's  requirements?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 26, 2011, 11:22:29 PM
How ghostly is that wattii!   :o

johnw
I like It, What are it's nearest relatives and it's  requirements?

It closest relative is Arisaema nepenthoides but morphologically also has some characteristics shared with Arisaema lobatum.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: PeterT on April 27, 2011, 05:02:05 AM
Thanks Pascal
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 27, 2011, 07:29:00 AM
I think trying to get hold of it is more of a challenge than growing it. Every time I order it I end up with something else.... >:(
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Robin Callens on April 27, 2011, 10:09:47 AM
Arisaema wattii probably requires similar growing conditions as the more common Arisaemas we grow such as A. nepenthoides, griffithii-utile-propinquum, intermedium and so on. I grow these species in the most cool, damp spots of my garden in a very fertile, humusrich soil in part shade to even full shade.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on April 28, 2011, 09:49:42 PM
Some species in flower at the moment:

A. sikokianum
A. kishidae
A. griffithii aff. group in the garden
A. (serratum) mayebarae, probably the darkest flower in the genus
A. thunbergii ssp. urashima pale form

Of A. thunbergii ssp. urashima there are actually about 8 different "green forms" of which I grow 3, this one has a white spathe tube. Of the coloured forms there are many variations, from red-brown to dark purple. The green forms usually are earlier than the coloured forms, I hope to post some of colored variations later.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on April 29, 2011, 03:48:24 AM
Arisaema ehimense
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 04, 2011, 09:23:11 PM
Arisaema engleri and one of the dark forms of A. thunbergii ssp. urashima
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Robin Callens on May 12, 2011, 10:12:58 PM
A few Arisaema species from my favourite section, section Arisaema, now flowering in the garden.

Arisaema griffithii
Arisaema griffithii
Arisaema wilsonii
Arisaema asperatum
Arisaema propinquum 1
Arisaema propinquum 2

Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 12, 2011, 10:32:31 PM
A. galeatum
A. maximowiczii purple form
A. taiwanense (silver leaved forms generally have pale spathe tubes)
A. lobatum var.
A. ringens purple
A. ghaticum (one of the smallest flowering species in the genus)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 12, 2011, 10:45:26 PM
Robin, do check the shape of the appendix tip of your asperatum, if the appendix is tapering and pointed it is not asperatum. Asperatum has a rounded ("obtuse") appendix tip as clearly stated in the original description. Here is a picture of the holotype (Henry3776). Although the appendix tip seems missing, the imprint is visible which shows the correct shape of the appendix tip. A picture of asperatum can be found in the Gusman book as rhombiforme. Most likely your plant falls within the wilsonii group.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Robin Callens on May 12, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Pascal,

My plants labeled as Arisaema asperatum have indeed a pointed spadix appendage, so according to your description they can't be asperatum. Thanks for noticing. Although I haven't yet seen species as Arisaema wilsonii, asperatum and dilatatum in the wild, I did read in Gusman's book that some consider A. wilsonii, dilatatum and asperatum as one variable species. Have you ever seen these species growing together in the wild?

Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 13, 2011, 07:41:22 AM
Robin,

I think that assumption is correct and the situation can be compared with the griffithii-group where the species (as we know them under their names) are nodes in the variation with a specific set of character combinations instead of stable individual characters. The characters are very variable throughout that group and have lead to numerous intermediates that show the "look" of the "species"  to some extent. You are correct that if 2 species grow side by side in mixed populations it would be an argument to see them as separate but all fieldreports I have seen and all pictures I have seen from wild populations suggest a highly polymorphic complex and the species as part of a variational cline influenced by bio-geographic factors.
I would even go as far as to say that the griffithii-group and the wilsonii-group are connected through Arisaema elephas, more particularly in N Sikkim and the neigbouring areas of Tibet.
See below the purple variant of the plant you have as A. asperatum (sorry for the poor picture, it's a scan of a slide). The name asperatum actually refers to the rough suface of the flowering and leaf stalks but that is a variable character in itself so was a badly chosen name from the beginning. Just like Arisaema "verrucosum" was.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Knud on May 16, 2011, 10:40:09 PM
Two Arisaema triphyllum illustrating what I gather is normal colour variation of the species. Grown from seed picked near Kingston, Ontario in Canada.

Knud
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: yijiawang on May 17, 2011, 03:59:12 AM
Arisaema dahaiense
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on May 30, 2011, 09:41:43 PM
A couple more now flowering for me.

1. Arisaema flavum, these are doing really well for me, very easy
2. Arisaema flavum
3. Arisaema flavum
4. Arisaema candidissimum, my second season with this, now 4 tubers  ;D
5. Arisaema candidissimum
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on May 30, 2011, 11:01:08 PM
Arisaema flavum 1 looks like an outraged Ostrich! Wonderful!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: jshields on May 30, 2011, 11:52:49 PM
It does indeed!  Marvelous!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on May 31, 2011, 12:48:38 AM
Is it my imagination or is the tip of the spathe very long.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: DavMac on May 31, 2011, 09:02:30 AM
Fred,
Do you know what the origin of your Arisaema candidissimum was? To my eye, it looks like it might actually be a hybrid of Arisaema candidissimum with either Arisaema fargesii or Arisaema lichiangense. Both these species are in the same section as Arisaema candidissimum. It might also be a variety of Arisaema lichiangense if the names of some of the photos online are to be believed.

Whether it is a hybrid or not, it is still a beautiful flower.

David McConachie
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on May 31, 2011, 04:45:25 PM
David,

Unfortunately I don't have the origin of my A. candidissimum recorded.
I did think the tip of the spathe was long but most photos of the plant are face on which doesn't help.
How strong is the scent supposed to be?
I can detect a violet scent but MrsG can't smell anything at all (probably due to living with me for many many years)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 31, 2011, 06:21:52 PM
I don't think the long spathe tip is that unusual and could very well fall within the variation of this species. Our ideas of candidissimum are largely based on the early Forrest clones but the recent new imports show it is more variable. The great pictures of Oron from this species in the wild in another thread show this variation very well and the first picture of candidissimum he shows also has a long spathe tip: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=pnrs0fg2gt2bgijbmdlv36fsu0&topic=5673.0

Hybrids between candidissimum and lichiangense generally retain the purple base of the spathe tube which I don't see in this flower. Hybrids between candidissimum and franchetianum/fargesii are generally darker colored and not only have a long spathe tip but the spathe blade in general is much bigger. All hybrids I know of within this section show hybrid vigour, tubers can reach 10 cm+ across within 4 years.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Hoy on May 31, 2011, 09:57:29 PM
Arisaema flavum 1 looks like an outraged Ostrich! Wonderful!
How do you know? When did you see one? ;)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Hoy on May 31, 2011, 10:04:12 PM
My Arisaemas are very late this year.
Till now only a few have shown themselves.
Here's is one of them emerging now (unnamed):
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on May 31, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
Arisaema sazensoo
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on May 31, 2011, 10:39:37 PM
Arisaema flavum 1 looks like an outraged Ostrich! Wonderful!
How do you know? When did you see one? ;)
In the wild, not for many years.... but they are farmed about five miles from here!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: PeterT on May 31, 2011, 10:43:04 PM
Arisaema flavum 1 looks like an outraged Ostrich! Wonderful!
How do you know? When did you see one? ;)
In the wild, not for many years.... but they are farmed about five miles from here!
Touche Maggie  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 02, 2011, 01:45:05 AM
The pink which may be a hybrid is very beautiful, such pretty colouring.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on June 02, 2011, 07:56:36 PM
I don't think the long spathe tip is that unusual and could very well fall within the variation of this species.

Apparently it's ok by the RHS too  ;D

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=164
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 03, 2011, 03:43:44 PM
2 examples of candidissimum variants, a great species to photograph with light coming from the back. Third is an example of the candidissimum x lichiangense hybrid, this cross usually produces somewhat "in-between-but-not-very-attractive flowers"  like this one. Question remains if these 2 names should be kept separate or merged under the same species..... :-\
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 03, 2011, 03:45:43 PM
Arisaema costatum and true Arisaema erubescens from Nepal
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on June 03, 2011, 09:23:43 PM
I have this plant as Arisaema kiusianum, there are photos under this spelling in the Aroid Society pages.
However, they have it under the spelling Arisaema kiushianum in the species list.


Sorry I couldn't resist holding up the spathe tip  :-[

Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 03, 2011, 10:09:11 PM
Fred, taxonomists can make it confusing but the proper name is kiushianum...

Arisaema kiushianum is named after Kyushu-island, the third biggest island of Japan. One would be tempted to say because the island has the extra "h" the species also got the "h". However....., another well known species from Japan, Arisaema sikokianum, was named after Shikoku-island......but isn't called A. shikokianum but sikokianum. I often wondered why that was and thought it maybe had something to do with the fact that kiushianum was described by a Japanese botanist (Makino) whereas sikokianum was named by a French botanist (Franchet). But no......, it seems the "latinisation" of the island name is at the discretion of the author of the species so there is no rule for that.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on June 04, 2011, 04:30:25 PM
Arisaema tortuosum (Wall.) Schott
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on June 04, 2011, 09:01:15 PM
Arisaema taiwanense from cw seed in Taiwan by Philip MacD.  I'm as intrigued with the leaf formation as the rather sinister flower.

Hopefully now that PMcD is back from sw Turkey he will post more photos now that we've recovered from the Epigaea gaultherioides shot.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 04, 2011, 09:55:24 PM
Arisaema taiwanense from cw seed in Taiwan by Philip MacD.  I'm as intrigued with the leaf formation as the rather sinister flower.

Hopefully now that PMcD is back from sw Turkey he will post more photos now that we've recovered from the Epigaea gaultherioides shot.

johnw
I agree, I can spend ages just admiring the way arisaemas unfurl... magical plants.

By the way, YOU may have recovered from the Epigaea shock... I'm still hyperventilating and have counselling booked for next week to calm my nerves. ::) :D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 04, 2011, 11:20:14 PM
now that we've recovered from the Epigaea gaultherioides shot.

johnw

WHERE, WHERE?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on June 05, 2011, 01:10:42 AM
now that we've recovered from the Epigaea gaultherioides shot.

johnw

WHERE, WHERE?

Maggi  - Obviously we han't accounted for the possibility that Lesley was still in a lowndesii-induced stupor when Philip posted the avalanche of Epigaea.

Try this Lesley   -   http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7343.0 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7343.0)  Travel thread under Eastern Turkey. Careful.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Brian Ellis on June 05, 2011, 09:20:06 AM
Lovely to see these, and I am reassured by a visit to the Old Vicarage at East Ruston, where their Arisaema are just beginning to poke out of the ground.  Hopefully mine will soon do the same!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 06, 2011, 06:45:09 PM
A red and another white form of candidissimum
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on June 06, 2011, 07:13:45 PM
This is unfair.
I'll be looking for the different forms of  A. candidissimum now.
Anyone ever seen multi-story greenhouses for sale?  ::)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 06, 2011, 07:34:17 PM
Sort of, Fred.. there was a high-rise version at Chelsea...... ;)
The B&Q Garden http://www.rhs.org.uk/Shows-Events/RHS-Chelsea-Flower-Show/2011/Gardens/A-to-Z/The-B-Q-Garden
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Robin Callens on June 06, 2011, 10:29:35 PM
Arisaema dahaiense (easy from seed and makes tuberlets as well)                                                 
Arisaema dahaiense
Arisaema concinnum (stoloniferous)
Arisaema concinnum
Arisaema exappendiculatum (stoloniferous)
Arisaema intermedium
Arisaema erubescens (stoloniferous)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Johan Nilson on June 07, 2011, 06:25:33 PM
Great pictures everyone!

Very interesting to see all the beautiful candidissimum variants. I am growing a white form of it but it will be a couple of weeks before it will flower here.

Some of the Arisaema species that has been flowering here during the last weeks;

A. engleri
A. yamatense var. sugimotoi
A. speciosum var. mirabile
A. griffithii
A. serratum_
A. thunbergii ssp. urashima
A. thunbergii ssp. urashima-leaf
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ranunculus on June 10, 2011, 10:51:06 PM
An arisaema in flower today ... an identification please?
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 10, 2011, 10:55:49 PM
Cliff i think it's Arisaema triphyllum but i might be wrong.While on the subject i recieved see of Arisaema triphyllum ssp. stewardsonii could somebody tell me anything about it please.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 13, 2011, 06:10:47 PM
Another color form of candidissimum and saxatile (or if you follow the Arisaema treatment in the new Flora of China: Arisaema mairei)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Johan Nilson on June 15, 2011, 08:32:31 PM
Arisaema asperatum
Arisaema intermedium
Arisaema lichiangense
Arisaema maximowiczii

Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on June 15, 2011, 11:40:06 PM
Cliff i think it's Arisaema triphyllum but i might be wrong.While on the subject i recieved see of Arisaema triphyllum ssp. stewardsonii could somebody tell me anything about it please.

Davey - My books are still inaccessible but I think this ssp. is red with white stripes rather than green but not dramatically so in the ones I've seen.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: daveyp1970 on June 16, 2011, 09:38:54 AM
Cliff i think it's Arisaema triphyllum but i might be wrong.While on the subject i recieved see of Arisaema triphyllum ssp. stewardsonii could somebody tell me anything about it please.

Davey - My books are still inaccessible but I think this ssp. is red with white stripes rather than green but not dramatically so in the ones I've seen.

johnw
Cheers John thank you.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: fredg on June 23, 2011, 07:44:32 PM
Another one flowering  ;D


Arisaema tortuosum
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 23, 2011, 10:57:43 PM
Arisaema quinatum
Arisaema bottae
Arisaema kiushianum (they love eachothers company)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 23, 2011, 11:33:12 PM
I love these plants.... all different and all fascinating. I know some folks find them rather sinister but who could fail to be charmed by that cute group of kiushianum with those marvelous markings?
And as for the delightful green of the quinatum.... could it be any more green and not be called Kermit?  :)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 23, 2011, 11:53:57 PM
A dark form of exappendiculatum and specially for Maggi a sinister species that does credit to its name... ;)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 23, 2011, 11:57:58 PM
Superb!
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ThomasB on June 27, 2011, 09:18:16 PM
Arisaema fargesii is giving quite a show within a large pot on my balcony. I like how the flowers look like they're whispering about something.  ;)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 27, 2011, 10:46:55 PM
They do, don't they. My single must have been talking to himself! Probably learnt to do that, from me. ;D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on June 27, 2011, 10:59:14 PM
Mine are gossiping behind my back..... ;D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on June 27, 2011, 11:01:08 PM
Quote
I like how the flowers look like they're whispering about something.  
Yes, I agree.... I thought that Pascal's group of kiushianum a couple of posts ago had a chatty , conspiritorial look about them.... probably planning a party...... ;)

You sure your singleton doesn't have a mobile phone, Lesley? He could be calling a friend..... :)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on June 28, 2011, 01:45:18 AM
Well that's possible Maggi, after all I did lose one a while back. Fell out of my pocket when I was weeding. And every NZer seems to have about 3. Even a little kid in a pushchair I saw the other day. ??? ???
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: WimB on June 28, 2011, 12:56:17 PM
Some Arisaema's flowering here now:

A. candidissimum (two different forms)
A. fargesii
A. speciosum
and A. tortuosa
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on July 04, 2011, 02:49:24 AM
I wonder if anyone would identify this Arisaema species for me?  It was grown as A. species ex China RBE#1519, 12-14" green; AGCBC#97-909, sown 25 January 1998.  I suspect yet another ciliatum v. liubaense of which I seem to have too many.

The photo is by talented neighbor as my camera is kaput.

My Wim that is one superb green tortuosum!  Now that's got to be Kermit.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on July 04, 2011, 05:23:51 AM
My guess would be A. ciliatum, maybe the var liubiense which I don't know how to distinguish from the type. But it is just that, a guess. It looks more like a delicate and beautiful painting than a photograph.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ranunculus on July 04, 2011, 07:34:24 AM
It looks more like a delicate and beautiful painting than a photograph.

I agree totally Lesley ... this would make a lovely full-size wall-hanging in a Chinese restaurant. (and, for once, I am trying to be serious)!  :-\
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 04, 2011, 10:00:42 AM
My guess would be A. ciliatum, maybe the var liubiense which I don't know how to distinguish from the type.

Basically a single character, the presence or absence of little hairs around the spathe mouth: ciliae. These hairs was what gave Arisaema ciliatum its name. Due to the fact it had all characters in common except the ciliae, the original collection that caused the creation of this variety (CT369) was named after the locality it was found so var. liubaense is the "naked" form of Arisaema ciliatum. Later fieldreports all show that the hairs are part of a varietal range and that one can find plants with clearly distinguishable hairs upto plants with smooth spathe mouths in single populations. In my view correctly var. liubaense has been sunk into ciliatum in the new Flora of China.

Only too bad that the species itself was named as such because now we have a plants belonging to this species that do not show the main character it was named after... ::).

One thing is for sure, the stolons make it very prolific and it is probably one of the most widespread Arisaema in cultivation right now, I can fully understand what John is saying, I myself certainly don't let it loose in the garden. It is also far more widespread in the wild than just Liuba, one of the reasons the Botanical Code advises not to name plants after locations unless there is reasonable certainty it has a very limited distribution range. As the variety was named after an introduction in cultivation there was no reason to think that.

Apart from that, the variation in section Sinarisaema, especially in China, is so huge that there is a real need for extensive fieldwork combined with DNA research in order to create any clearity in the apparant chaos, I don't even try to name plants of this section from China above the level of "aff."......  :(
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: greenspan on July 04, 2011, 12:21:26 PM
... I myself certainly don't let it loose in the garden.

...and what about this ciliatum mutant pascal? wouldn't you be happy if hundreds of them would appear in the garden? ;D ;)

i fully agree to what you say about the species status of the ciliatum variety var. liubaense. some of my ciliatum show these hairs, the other not. so in my opinion too it's better to say ciliatum.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 04, 2011, 01:49:36 PM
Ha, yes, I am familiar with this phenomenon. It just shows that a spathe blade is nothing more than a modified leaf and that the reverse can sometimes happen. Still not sure I would like to grow it though.... :-\

As for the liubaense stuff, as far as I am aware very few actually grow the Carla Teune collection. A lot of "naked" ciliatum has been exported from China in recent years and they all seem slightly different. Problem is that once established it can mix with existing species in gardens. Section Sinarisaema easily hybridizes and particularly these species set seed easily so after a while the cultivated plants loose their value for taxonomy because you don't know what you are looking at. In general I would rely on observations in the wild only.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on July 04, 2011, 10:07:45 PM
I'm quite happy to have let A ciliatum loose in the garden where it is in competition with the taller, larger and even more prolific A. consanguineum. Planted a few years ago as 1 of each, they are now maybe 1 of the former to 4 of the latter. I've not had seed on ciliatum (which I received from PC's Rare Plant nursery as nepenthoides!) but batches of seed from A. consanguineum have yielded occasional plants like ciliatum, with its beautiful pin stripes.

Anyway, what I meant to say was that while the picture John showed would make a great wall hanging in a chinese restaurant, it would be even better in my sitting room. ;D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: bulborum on July 04, 2011, 10:37:10 PM
Lesley

there is a simple program for your sitting room
see: POSTERIZA (http://www.posteriza.com/es/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=5&lang=en_US)

Roland
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on July 04, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
Thank you Roland, but I'll probably stick with my David James and my Salvatore Petruolo. ;D
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: johnw on July 05, 2011, 12:35:52 AM
No hairs spotted on this one so we shall simply label it A. ciliatum.  Thanks to all.

johnw
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Alessandro.marinello on July 11, 2011, 09:34:48 PM
Arisaema! in order certainly, but I do not know the name, wide flower 1,3 cm, 5 cm in height, a Arisaema little  ???
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on July 11, 2011, 10:36:09 PM
Looks like some cheeky little bird. :)
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 11, 2011, 10:49:37 PM
Arisaema! in order certainly, but I do not know the name, wide flower 1,3 cm, 5 cm in height, a Arisaema little  ???

Looks like Arisaema lichiangense Alessandro
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Pascal B on July 12, 2011, 12:27:04 PM
Side by side comparison of 2 forms of Arisaema kiushianum, the left has thinner leaves with more elegant flowers, the right is more sturdy and compact in all its parts with a broader spathe and a shorter spadix appendix. Both forms are easy to propagate and what you see is surplus that will be sold on E-bay this autumn. Each tuber normally produces 5-6 pups that, in contrast to a lot of species, will already produce growth the next year. Occasionally the tubers also split and the form on the right on several occasions has produced 2 flowers from the same shoot.
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: olegKon on July 14, 2011, 11:40:01 AM
Beautiful kuishianum twins, Pascal!
Arisaema yunnanense
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: Alessandro.marinello on July 14, 2011, 08:54:55 PM
Arisaema! in order certainly, but I do not know the name, wide flower 1,3 cm, 5 cm in height, a Arisaema little  ???

Looks like Arisaema lichiangense Alessandro
Pascal Thanks
Title: Re: Arisaema 2011
Post by: ArnoldT on July 29, 2011, 04:04:20 PM
Arisaema consanguineum "Perfect Wave"  from Ellen Hornig at Seneca Hill Perennials
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