Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Seedy Subjects! => Grow From Seed => Topic started by: maggiepie on January 21, 2011, 06:07:58 PM
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Last year I grew some Erodium guttatum from seed.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be hardy here so I brought one indoors to winter.
I had assumed they are perennial but am now wondering if they are annuals as the plant I brought in is just sitting there and looks like it is going to croak.
Here's a couple of pics of one of the plants.
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I'm not familiar with your plant but ...
Hopleys say it's very hardy but their photo isnt the same as yours http://www.hopleys.co.uk/e/erodium.html (http://www.hopleys.co.uk/e/erodium.html)
Pottertons show the same plant http://www.pottertons.co.uk/pott/view_product.php?pid=1843 (http://www.pottertons.co.uk/pott/view_product.php?pid=1843)
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I've looked at Robin Parers brilliant web site but she lists nothing tht is similar to yours
http://geraniaceae.com/bin/welcome.cgi (http://geraniaceae.com/bin/welcome.cgi)
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I've grown Erodium guttatum for years Helen - if I remember well, it survived four or five winters without problems, but I lost it in a very warm/dry summer.
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Mark, E. guttatum comes from Morocco.
I don't know what those nurseries are selling unless there are TWO versions of it.
Remember this thread?
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4594.0
Luc, thanks for your input, maybe the two I left in the garden might survive although we had so much rain during Autumn and early winter I fear they won't.
Would hate to lose them, they are very prolific with flowers. I also like the smell of the leaves.
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Mark, E. guttatum comes from Morocco.
I don't know what those nurseries are selling unless there are TWO versions of it.
Remember this thread?
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4594.0
Luc, thanks for your input, maybe the two I left in the garden might survive although we had so much rain during Autumn and early winter I fear they won't.
Would hate to lose them, they are very prolific with flowers. I also like the smell of the leaves.
Helen,
In the "The new Dictionary of Gardening" (Royal Horticultural Society) E guttatum is a perennial European plant (Z8) and the description fits the plants in Mark's links but not your plant at all. So obviously two very different plants share the same name! Somebody has made a mistake ???
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We're all noting the same discrepancy... Moroccan sites show Helen's plant as "Erodium guttatum" and suggest it is an accepted name, but some other sites (e.g. ITIS) claim no record of this name. Various nursery and private sites show a completely different plant (with flowers like E. petraeum ssp. crispum) as "E.guttatum"... ???
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Hopefully, someone will be able to shed some light on this mystery. ???
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http://www.tela-botanica.org/sites/botanique/fr/documents/biblio/articles_en_ligne/apercu_de_la_taxonomie_du_genre_erodium.pdf
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And somone did :)
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Helen, that's what I saw as well. It is possible to find many plant lists and reports from the area where Erodium guttatum is said to occur (Morocco, etc.) that list it as a valid species and the photos in those reports show a plant like yours.
Here's the entry from the much-discussed RHS plant list, which does include the name (unlike ITIS, for example):
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/search?q=erodium+guttatum
It says Erodium guttatum (Desf.) Willd. is valid, while Erodium guttatum (Ledeb.) is not valid and is a synonym for E. oxyrhinchum (which has completely different foliage)... which, however, doesn't look anything like the plant shown at so many nursery and European (mainly) private grower sites.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=250084118
So then I guess the question may be more what is the correct name of the Erodium with whitish flowers with 2 blotched petals that is shown at so many sites... and apparently mislabelled as Erodium guttatum?
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If only the National Collection of Erodium was still about we could get some answers
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So then I guess the question may be more what is the correct name of the Erodium with whitish flowers with 2 blotched petals that is shown at so many sites... and apparently mislabelled as Erodium guttatum?
Think you're right, Lori, wonder where one would even start looking to find the answer to that question.
Mark, is there no current National Erodium Collection?
What happened to it?
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For a starter:
http://eunis.eea.europa.eu/species/172665/countries
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For a starter:
http://eunis.eea.europa.eu/species/172665/countries
Hmmm.... no mention there of North Africa....... ??? :-X
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I had contacted the collection holder a few years ago a plant I was looking for - the lovely pink eyed David Crocker - he said at the time he wanted someone to take it on. When I checked the NCCPg web site yesterday there was no mention
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Helen's plant is Erodium arborescens, and if you can translate
http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogTypeView.do?blogid=0CyIa&articleno=17041254&categoryId=0®dt=20100405142916#ajax_history_home
http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=2001/EG/EG01001.xml;EG2001000080
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Trond, I am not convinced it is E.arborescens. The flowers in the link you give don't have black centres.
The pics of both arborescens and guttatum here, look so similar I can't decide which is which but both have black centres. ???
http://www.tela-botanica.org/sites/botanique/fr/documents/biblio/articles_en_ligne/apercu_de_la_taxonomie_du_genre_erodium.pdf
If you scroll down you can see pics of both plants. Leaves look pretty much the same too.
Here is a pic of my plant's seeds.
Not that they seem to help either. ???
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I've been folowing this thread as I have a pot with 3 seedlings sown last January. No flowers yet. One looks fine but the other two look a bit iffy. According to the AGS Encyclopaedia of Alpines Erodium guttatum comes from southern Spain and north Africa and is not reliably hardy. They say it is confused with forms of Erodium petraeum which seems to have many subspecies and synonyms. Why? I don't know. The flowers and leaves are completely different. There is a hybrid x kolbiense, petraeum ssp glandulosum x rupestre. I have a cultivar called 'Natasha'. This has silvery, feathery leaves and the flowers are white or pale pink with darker veins and a dark blotch on the upper two petals.
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Roma,
How long did it take the seeds to germinate for you?
My plants were sown in baggies with vermiculite last January too but I planted them out as soon as the ground thawed and warmed.
They grew very fast and were flowering by July and kept flowering until the killing frosts.
I am going to treat mine as annuals from now on.
I find they germinate within two weeks in a baggie.
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Helen,
I don't always keep a note of germination dates but do try for a short time each year. I see one germinated in April and I think the others were a bit slower. i am not very good at getting things moving and planted out quickly enough. Mine were sown in the cold frame and subjected to frost last year and this. The part of the frame where I keep seed pots gets no sun in winter so the snow does not melt and I suppose insulates to some extent. I'd be hopeless germinating seeds in baggies. I'd never get them potted in time. Some survive years in the original seed pots.
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Roma,
I only know my germination times because the date of bagging is written down.
I only play with seeds during winter when we are housebound most of the time, helps keep me sane.
The baggies are my lifeline.
Just tried some guttatum seeds, first one has germinated in 5 days.
If I can keep it alive it will flower this summer.
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My surviving Erodium guttatum sat doing not very much all last year. I took it into the greenhouse for the winter. In spring I repotted it still in a 7cm pot as it did not have much root. It grew slowly over the summer and about a week ago I spotted a couple of flower buds. The flowers lasted a day each. I managed to photograph the second one.
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Looks same as mine, Roma.
I didn't grow any this year but the past two years I started seed indoors and planted them out in the garden as soon as it warmed up.
They all flowered profusely and died in winter but they do produce plenty of seeds so easy to grow them as annuals.