Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum

General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: johngennard on January 13, 2011, 07:59:40 PM

Title: Helleborus 2011
Post by: johngennard on January 13, 2011, 07:59:40 PM
The first hellebore to open.They have stood outside frozen solid until I brought them in a week ago.

Helleborus thibetanus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: johngennard on January 22, 2011, 09:37:14 PM
One week later thibetanus is more advanced and These pictures show the variation between plants.I am never quite sure which one I prefer though initially I always preferred the deeper shade with the prominent veins and the foilage has a distinct pewter colour and deeper serrations,but as they say,"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
Make up your own minds.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 22, 2011, 10:12:45 PM
Every one is a glorious thing John.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 22, 2011, 10:56:26 PM
I posted a reply earlier this week but it's not here ???

I've been Googling for plants of H. thibetanus but cant find any. Any ideas?

I did email Ashwoods. They want £30 for one plant  :o
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 22, 2011, 11:09:57 PM
I posted a reply earlier this week but it's not here ???
That's odd.... someone said earlier tonight they'd lost a post to a heptaica thread..... I can find it.... Very odd.
I've been Googling for plants of H. thibetanus but cant find any. Any ideas?

Kevock have them, I think... don't know how much though.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 22, 2011, 11:49:29 PM
http://www.edrom-nurseries.co.uk/shop/pc/Helleborus-thibetanus-35p7969.htm

£10 for a plant.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Paul T on January 23, 2011, 07:33:13 AM
Stunning, John. 8)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on January 23, 2011, 08:01:13 AM
Beautiful plants, John!
My one thibetanus which I have in the garden is still not showing any flowers, the soil has been frozen solid till now.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 23, 2011, 10:26:35 AM
here's my plant stuck in bud since Monday

The reason I want another plant/s is for cross pollination. Since I got mine in 2007, at the SRGC early bulb display in 2007, I've only got a few seeds that didnt grow.

Thanks for the link to Edrom
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on January 23, 2011, 11:22:22 AM
I had a look at the plants today, thibetanus shows only a spear with no flowerbuds yet but "the early purple" is showing colour :)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: johngennard on January 23, 2011, 11:39:02 AM
I posted a reply earlier this week but it's not here ???

I've been Googling for plants of H. thibetanus but cant find any. Any ideas?

I did email Ashwoods. They want £30 for one plant  :o

I have tried on several occassions to raise more plants from my own seed but without success.I had my plants originally from Rareplants and Aberconwy a few years ago and they are very slow to build up.They were about £8 each at that time which seemed a lot of money in a 4"pot.Probably that is why they are so expensive now but compared to the escalation of snowdrop prices that is small beer.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 23, 2011, 12:06:01 PM
how does it survive in the wild if it is a bad seed setter

Have you tried dividing plants? When and how?
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2011, 12:50:18 PM
Recently I am sure someone showed, in the Forum, some extraordinary photos of large swathes of Helleborus thibetanus, inthe wild..... I cannot find them... anyone remember where it was....? ???
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Pascal B on January 23, 2011, 01:17:23 PM
It was on the Belgian forum Maggi:

http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=250.0
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 23, 2011, 01:24:14 PM
It's a woodlander  :o Mine is in full sun

Maybe someone will post that photo here
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2011, 01:36:31 PM
It was on the Belgian forum Maggi:

http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=250.0
Ah yes!Thanks, Pascal..... I knew I saw it in some Forum!! It's Chris Vermeire's photo from the wild... wonderful!!!


Point I was going to make about it was in regard to Mark's question
Quote
how does it survive in the wild if it is a bad seed setter
.... I would imagine that in colonies like this in the wild it has no trouble at all in setting seed. Oftentimes the plants we  have "trouble" with in cultivation can be ascribed to the fact that we are growing  a limited number of plants from a limited gene pool and so these difficulties arise, but it is all to do with the plants' reaction to the un-natural circumstances in which we grow them... in the wild they may have no bother at all with seed production... of course, they have to deal with other problems, habitat destruction, pest predation etc. but I wouldn't think that most plants have too many problems with sexual reproduction in the wild.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on January 23, 2011, 02:04:42 PM
Here it is
(http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=250.0;attach=9703;image)

Kris, ik heb hier een plant of 10 staan en ze zijn allemaal verschillend, deze hier is één van de betere, als de rest open komt laat ik nog wel eens wat foto's zien, de meeste staan in volle grond en de bloemen moeten nog open komen, hier nog een foto van de vindplaats in Shiuan China

Translate for yourself! (I can translate to Norwegian if you like ;)

Borrowed from Chris Vermeire   http://www.vrvforum.be/forum/index.php?topic=250.0
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 23, 2011, 03:03:21 PM
Where are they and I'll go get a couple for myself :D

They are much taller than my plant
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on January 23, 2011, 04:46:09 PM
You'll have to fly to Shiuan - China, Mark !  ;)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 23, 2011, 07:25:49 PM
I was given some seed a while back and though a number germinated, not one would shed its seed coat even though I tried very gently to make them. So eventually they all shrivelled up. I even made tiny cuts in the coat but it was difficult after germination. If I have another chance some time I'll cut the coats before sowing.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: chris on January 23, 2011, 08:18:38 PM
it is verry difficult to dig H.thibetanus out, the roots can grow 60 cm deep, the best is to grow them from seed, it will take 5-7 years for having flowers.
I think for more seeds you have to cross tho plants better than selfcrosses, H.thibetanus gives not much seeds, they only have 2 carpels and if you have lucky than in the carpels there are 4-7 seeds
if you plant them out give them a light acid soil and verry good drainage, my plants are under Rhododendrons
label them well because at the end of may the plants go dormant until beginning december,
here a photo from a plant that I will show at the Helleborus show in Arboretum Kalmthout Belgium from 10 til 13 februari
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2011, 08:34:39 PM
Chris, many thanks for posting this contribution.
Good advice , I am sure, and a lovely flower portrait.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: chris on January 23, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
I find H.thibetanus one of the beauty's of all Helleborus, looking delicat but verry hardy
here some pics from others


 Note from Maggi: These pictures are rather large... but show great  detail if your internet connection can cope with them... otherwise, Mark has resized them and reposted in smaller versions in the next post  ;)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 23, 2011, 09:37:02 PM
Chris, I've edited your photos. The white and red plants are  :o
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2011, 09:39:44 PM
Thank you  for doing that, Mark.... that size will be easier for those with slow connections etc.
Wonderful photos from Chris.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on January 23, 2011, 09:51:55 PM
No problems with any size - and I have decided to fill my woodland garden with this species - if I ever get hold of enough plants :)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on January 23, 2011, 09:59:26 PM
Hi Everybody,

My name is Marcus Harvey and I live in Tasmania, just across the ditch from Lesley Cox and I'd like to join in the conversation.

I am gobsmacked by the quality of these plants. I cannot grow this species anywhere near as well. It would seem we just don't have the right temperature regime nor humidity. I find they emerge OK but fail to expand and extend. The flowers stay close to the ground on foreshortened stems and inevitably succumb to fungal attack over the course of the season.
Do any of the other southern hemisphere growers have any comments about this?

My plants came from Chen Yi some time ago now and I am prepared to say I am defeated by them. I don't think they will ever appear as a commercial product "Down Under", even if they can be tissue cultured. At 10 pound a plant does anyone think this is happening in Europe? Are there any name clones out there?
Cheers, Marcus

A
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 23, 2011, 10:38:42 PM
I can't say I've heard of named clones yet, Marcus..... red form, pink form so far is about it! There is a fab hybrid though.... which Ian saw gorgeous stock plants of last year when visiting Ashwood's nursery....Helleborus 'Pink Ice' perhaps the first hybrid with Hellborus thibetanus involved (nigercors x thibetanus according to Ashwood)


http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2010Feb031265210953BULB_LOG__05.pdf
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4942.msg133911#msg133911

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 23, 2011, 11:14:23 PM
Marcus, John Massey from Ashwood will be in NZ early next year for talk at Lincoln near Chch. I'll send you something. Better get yourself over here for that weekend.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Tony Willis on January 25, 2011, 09:33:36 AM
I have not had any trouble getting seed and in 2009 got about 30 from my two plants which have produced about 20 plants having germinated in the autumn of 2009. Last year the seed was shed whilst I was on holiday and so was lost.

In 2009 I went away and left paper bags over the seed heads but forgot last year.

I got my original plant from Aberconwy and my second from Chen yi. Both are planted in the garden but neither do well.

The seedling plants are just making their first leaves for this year..
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 25, 2011, 10:11:15 AM
Marcus
My experience is the same as Tony's I have three plants and the seed set is poor. They are in the open garden and progress has been slow but this year at least one of these plants is showing a reasonable clump. My plants were from Will McLewin and the only named variety that I am aware of is what he had as the Marietta form shown below and this I believe is a strain which had been separated growing in a polytunnel. Although attractive I prefer the deeper and fuller flowered pink ones. I bought a plant of the Marietta form and it has not increased in 5 years.  Naming Hellebores is a bit of a mugs game because they are so unwilling to grow well when disturbed. I have germinated some of my own seeds and we will see how that goes. Marcus if you would like some seed of the  pink one - assuming it sets this year- let me know and I will send you a few. Failing that contact Will McLewin who sells seed.  http://www.phedar.com/catalog/ Seed is probably the best if not the longest way to get good plants

edit I should have said that as far as I know the Marietta form is a seed strain
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Paul T on January 25, 2011, 11:40:51 AM
Tony, Ian et al,

How long are your Helleborus thibetanus above ground?  I think these only have a growing period of a few months a year don't they?  I have small seedlings from a lovely person here on the forum, but have had very little action from them at all.  I'm afraid only one surfaced this year (5 last year) and I think that I've probably lost the others.  I'm guessing that our summer temps are again the problem, but I am also concerned that I may be keeping them too moist?  I've had very few problems with any other Hellebore (heck, the orientalis hybrids are veritable weeds!), but I realise this one is apparently a very different creature.  Any pointers to growing them, particularly care when young?

Thanks in anticipation.

P.S.  Those striped ones pictured are just amazing.  :o  Thanks so much for the pictures everyone.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on January 25, 2011, 11:55:31 AM
Paul I cant tell you exactly but I think my plant is dormant by June
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 25, 2011, 12:03:23 PM
Tony, Ian et al,

How long are your Helleborus thibetanus above ground?  I think these only have a growing period of a few months a year don't they?  I have small seedlings from a lovely person here on the forum, but have had very little action from them at all.  I'm afraid only one surfaced this year (5 last year) and I think that I've probably lost the others.  I'm guessing that our summer temps are again the problem, but I am also concerned that I may be keeping them too moist?  I've had very few problems with any other Hellebore (heck, the orientalis hybrids are veritable weeds!), but I realise this one is apparently a very different creature.  Any pointers to growing them, particularly care when young?

Thanks in anticipation.

P.S.  Those striped ones pictured are just amazing.  :o  Thanks so much for the pictures everyone.

Paul all my plants disappear but this is variable some as late as August. My best plant is growing in woodsy soil and receives at least half shade. A clue I suppose is in the Chris's  photo from the wild. Maybe you are too warm in the summer and sometimes moisture and heat are a deadly combination. Hope this helps
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Paul T on January 25, 2011, 11:54:40 PM
Thanks to you both.  I think that next time I get seed I am going to have to bite the bullet and sow them directly into the ground, to see if that helps.

Thanks again for the info.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: chris on January 26, 2011, 07:40:02 AM
my H.thibetanus in the cold greenhouse start growing in november and disappear in may, the ones I have outside start growing at the end of november and depends on the weather they disappear when temperatures rising above 20°c.

Ian I dont now if the Marietta form is a seed strain, a few years ago I recived some H.thibetanus from China and they say it where H.thibetanus variegated form, they look like the photo of you, the variegation of the leaves looks more  a virus dissease, so I was afraid and put the plants in quarantaine, after flowering they all died, I had some seeds but cant remember where I sow them.
here two photos from my plants
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 26, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
Chris I don't know the origin of the Marietta form. The picture I posted was from Will McLewin's nursery in 2006 and is one of about 10 plants growing together in an open polytunnel in order to get seed. These plants were well away from the other more full flowered pink forms.

By the way I have found it difficult to get much seed from thibetanus  and one does not seem to set at all. Seed set certainly seems to work better with more than one plant
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on January 27, 2011, 02:18:07 AM
Hi Ian,

Thanks for the very kind offer to send seed. If you have any to spare I would like to try the pink strain. It might be interesting to try it from seed. As I said earlier all the plants I have were originally imported by me into Australia from Chen Yi. I started with 10 and now I have 5 and no home grown seedlings. So thats not a record I am particularly proud of. My plants stay above ground for around 6 months but as I said earlier they don't "grow on" like other species and whatever seed is set usually succumbs to fungal attach despite a bit of a douse with Mancozeb.

Paul - I think we are just on the wrong side of OK for this species. It sounds bizzare saying that because its such an easy genus.

Cheers, Marcus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: johnw on January 27, 2011, 02:38:44 AM
Chris - Every thibetanus we have tried can be traced back to Chen Yi.  All died and were heavily infected by virus. Variegated, they were all variegated by the time they departed!  We have never succeeded with seedlings either, they come up and fade away.

Ian - The Marietta strain is surely from the O'Byrne's Northwest Garden Nursery in Oregon. Ernie's wife is Marietta.

johnw
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 27, 2011, 09:06:02 AM
Chris - Every thibetanus we have tried can be traced back to Chen Yi.  All died and were heavily infected by virus. Variegated, they were all variegated before they departed!  We have never succeeded with seedlings either.

Ian - The Marietta strain is surely from the O'Byrne's Northwest Garden Nursery in Oregon. Ernie's wife is Marietta?

johnw

John I thought this could be the case and it did seem logical but I think it needs confirmation  :-\
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 27, 2011, 09:09:03 AM
Hi Ian,

Thanks for the very kind offer to send seed. If you have any to spare I would like to try the pink strain. It might be interesting to try it from seed. As I said earlier all the plants I have were originally imported by me into Australia from Chen Yi. I started with 10 and now I have 5 and no home grown seedlings. So thats not a record I am particularly proud of. My plants stay above ground for around 6 months but as I said earlier they don't "grow on" like other species and whatever seed is set usually succumbs to fungal attach despite a bit of a douse with Mancozeb.

Paul - I think we are just on the wrong side of OK for this species. It sounds bizzare saying that because its such an easy genus.

Cheers, Marcus

Marcus you are welcome. Please PM me with your address and I will send you some assuming I get seed set this year
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 27, 2011, 12:06:35 PM
Surely the distribution of Helleborus thibetanus is so disjunct from other species that there should be no surprise that it requires a different set of cultural requirements than the other hellies  and this itself explains our various problems with it?
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on January 27, 2011, 09:15:22 PM
Hi Maggi,

Yes its probably the case but as genus hellebores display a remarkable tolerance to climatic and cultural stress. I guess there's always one prima donna in every family  :D.

There are few plants I have been prepared to give up on, especially when it would appear on the surface to be a relatively easy task to grow them, but I must say this is sitting on my "provisional list". Bit like Michael Clarke, our current Aussie cricket captain!

Cheer, Marcus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 28, 2011, 03:24:52 AM
No use mentioning cricket to ur Maggi, she's never heard of Bradman OR Botham. ;D Unless they ride a bike.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on January 28, 2011, 08:24:00 AM
Sorry I forgot that cricket has no currency north of the Tweed.  :-[

While on the subject of sport and thngs sporty - I was most chuffed that the volatile Serbian superstar, Novak Djokavic, after pulverizing The Fed last night took time to mention in the postmatch interview that he was delighted by the Royal Melbourne Botanic Gardens and that he took time to visit it everyday to relax and recharge. Probably the biggest free plug the place has had for a long time!

Marcus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on January 28, 2011, 05:43:09 PM
I just noticed that my moth (or rather slug) eaten bit of the Marietta form is in flower though as I moved it last year to what I thought was a more promising spot it at least is not sulking too much. Just to put this one in perspectyive it is currently only about 6" or 15cm high. It seems more pink in than I remember. Sorry about the quality had too shoot from the hip as this one is in the middle of a busy border
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: fleurbleue on January 28, 2011, 05:45:47 PM
A very nice and desirable form Ian !
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on January 28, 2011, 06:28:34 PM
Chris I don't know the origin of the Marietta form.................................... 

This may help

http://www.blackforest.perennials.com/seeplant.html?item=1.256.880
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 29, 2011, 10:20:28 PM
That's wonderful Marcus, a plant-orientated tennis star. But I guess the Scots here will be hoping Andy Murray triumphs.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 30, 2011, 10:31:10 AM
That's wonderful Marcus, a plant-orientated tennis star. But I guess the Scots here will be hoping Andy Murray triumphs.

 It would be wonderful to see Andy Murray win.... but when his opponent is giving such great publicity to a Botanic Garden, it's easy to like him!
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on January 30, 2011, 09:46:33 PM
Alas, poor Andy....
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on January 30, 2011, 10:22:55 PM

For Andy, Here's to the next time... there will be lots of hellebores to keep us entertained until then. We've got some buds showing...... :)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: chris on February 01, 2011, 09:03:23 PM
a beautiful form Ian, here the plants for the Helleborus show in arboretum Kalmthout come into flower, first H.westwood hybrid and the second a hybrid called bicolor
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Paul T on February 01, 2011, 10:30:20 PM
Both are gorgeous, Chris.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 01, 2011, 11:23:01 PM
Chris very nice ones I am  particularly fond of the bicoloured  ones they are lovely when their backs are to the light
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: alpinelover on February 04, 2011, 09:18:00 PM
Some Helleborus orientalishybrids today in my garden.
The first one is a seedling from one of my plants. He's four years old now.
The second one came from the Ashwood nursery several years ago.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on February 04, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
My vote goes to your breed, alpinelover ;D
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: John85 on February 05, 2011, 06:15:52 PM
I try to select seedlings with flowers that are not nodding (specially with large single flowers)
Any suggestions for good cv.Please show some pics.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on February 06, 2011, 06:34:37 PM
Ian and Chris - two desirable Hellebores  :o
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on February 06, 2011, 06:36:13 PM
I got an email from Ashwoods today offereing me one of the Hellebores I'm looking for. Dont get too excited it's only thibetanus.

That will be £30 please ...
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on February 06, 2011, 06:37:34 PM
... and £35 postage and packaging  :o :o :o :o

I had to laugh
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 06, 2011, 10:16:04 PM
I got an email from Ashwoods today offereing me one of the Hellebores I'm looking for. Dont get too excited it's only thibetanus.

We should be so lucky!

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Lesley Cox on February 06, 2011, 10:16:43 PM
... and £35 postage and packaging  :o :o :o :o

WHAT???
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: mark smyth on February 06, 2011, 10:27:52 PM
I could get a no frills air fare for that.

Lesley, is it thibetanus you want? If I have seeds this year I can send you some
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 07, 2011, 11:42:29 AM
I try to select seedlings with flowers that are not nodding (specially with large single flowers)
Any suggestions for good cv.Please show some pics.

 Since John is interested in breeding some hellebores and may have other questions about this that would be of interest to others, I'll start a thread for that....  :D
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: monocotman on February 14, 2011, 09:41:47 PM
hi ,

just a few of open pollinate seedlings from ashwood plants flowering for the first time this year. All the plants are quite small with just a couple of flowers but show some potential.
First up is a nice flat picotee with quite a broad dark edge over most of the petals. As usual with these types, one of the petals doesn't have such a good edge colour. Maybe next year and a bit more growth.
Second up is a purpleish anemone with quite a large 'ruff'.
Lastly is a really nice 'neon' which on this flowering is better than the parent.
The colour is pretty accurate. Many of this strain that I've seen have had a high proportion of crippled or slightly disfigured flowers  so fingers crossed for next year,

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Gail on February 14, 2011, 09:43:41 PM
Beautiful David - especially that first one.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 14, 2011, 09:45:31 PM
Beautiful David - especially that first one.
Oh yes! Blackcurrant and white.... my favourite combination.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 14, 2011, 11:03:02 PM
Nice picotee David like the dark petaloid stamens sets it off quite nicely
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 15, 2011, 01:19:05 AM
Hi,

I have notr seen anything like the neon seedling here in Australia. I do like it just because it breaks through my "ideas' about where hellebore breeding is at.
We don't have an Ashwood out here in Australia pushing the boundaries but we have some nice plants. By way of comparison I am posting a picotee that goes the "other way". This one has a green surround on the dark petaloids.

The other is one that cant make up its mind whether it wants to be a double or an anemone-centred individual.

Cheers, Marcus

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: fleurbleue on February 15, 2011, 10:00:53 AM
Very nice flowers Hillview C. and Monocotman  :D
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: monocotman on February 15, 2011, 10:46:41 AM
Marcus,

you can always try to buy some 'neon' seed from ashwoods - they do an extensive list, but you have to be fairly quick for some of the crosses.
The red in this strain is a true red in some parts of the flower with no purple shading at all.
Alternatively you can buy some seed of their 'yellow with yellow nectaries' strain and cross it with a good red picotee.
This particular yellow strain is an eye popping bright yellow ( no green at all) and shines out when in flower from across the garden.
Both the neon and this strain of yellows have characteristic pale foliage. It never gets really dark.
See the photo of the seedling.
I find both of these strains not the quickest or easiest to establish in the garden which is why I've raised a bunch of seedlings from them and dotted them around.
It is easy to pick the pale coloured foliage forms from group of mixed seedlings and to know that these will probably have the brightest flowers.
They may also require a slightly drier soil than some forms - I don't really know - I'm experimenting.
The colours are so bright that it is worth persevering,

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Diane Clement on February 15, 2011, 10:53:25 PM
A self sown seedling, coming up through a ruff of hederifolium leaves.  The parent is an Ashwood cv
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 16, 2011, 01:57:51 AM
Hi David,

I did purchase seed from Ashwoods years ago I seem to rememeber that there was a waiting list for some strains ::). Importing hellebore plants into Australia  is another thing entirely and not to be taken on lightly or with a thin wallet. Peter Leigh who is the leading grower here has recently imported some stock plants from Ashwoods and I did bring some in from Farm Yard ? Nursery in Wales as well as NZ.

I will put my name down at Ashwoods for the neons meanwhile I will cross our very best primrose picotee with our best red as you suggest.

My "yellows" are more primrose and certainly not eye-popping. I have posted this and the primrose picotee strain below as well as a very large, but not evenly coloured, anemone-centred pink. You are welcome to some seed of this (perhaps to give better shape to your strain) and the picotee I posted earlier on if you wish. They are very stable strains and might help with your breeding program. Let me know by PE if you want them - I am about to sow my seed for this year.

Cheers, Marcus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hillview croconut on February 16, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
Hi Diane,

What a lovely and gorgeous surprise. I so look forward to what a new crop of seedlings will bring. This is even better when such a lovely thing appears unannounced.

I probably sell a lot of better plants than I keep. People are forever sending pics of plants they have purchased from me and a lot of them bring out the green-eyed monster. ;D I once sold a batch of Ashwood seedlings sight unseen to some guys who own a wholesale nursery because I had too much stock to look after. They sent me some pics of primrose picotee anemome-centres that I would kill for!
They all nearly look the same when they are babies, though I do note David's selecting ploy.

Cheers, Marcus 
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: John85 on February 16, 2011, 09:16:25 AM
Hello Helleborophiles
Is there really nobody who grows helleborus whith flowers that are not nodding.I have such a plant(about 30 degrees up) but the flower is only a pink medium sized one.I now try to improve size and colour by crossng with more beautiful ones.This has certainly already be done and I'd like to see your results and have your suggestions.   Pleeeeeeease.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: monocotman on February 16, 2011, 01:19:10 PM
Marcus,
thanks for the offer but my garden is already swamped with hellebores and their seedlings. I've no room for any more.
Remember that Ashwoods are continually updating their parents from each batch they grow.
So what you buy as a strain one year may be better the following year following a change of parents.
They grow 10,000 plants a year and pretty much don't let any go until they've flowered.
On average they keep just 10 a year as parents from the 10,000.
If you pop along to their open days they often have large plants for sale that were good enough
when flowered to be used as parents but have now been overtaken by better plants.

John - there are people that breed for more upright flowers but these all tend to be smaller with narrow petals.
There is a strain called 'Bradfield stars' that were bred for sideways facing flowers.
In the end it tends to come down to the actual weight of the individual flower and how much it 'nods',

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 21, 2011, 11:09:45 AM
Slow start here but here is H x ballardii (lividus x niger hybrid) coming into flower. I usually protect this in December and January. It needed it this year
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 21, 2011, 11:20:20 AM
What a cracker, Ian.... well worth the effort of some protection to get that sight in February.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 21, 2011, 11:43:32 AM
Nice Ian.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Thomas Seiler on February 21, 2011, 02:13:11 PM
A great plant, Ian.

I tried H. x ballardiae once, but it did not survive in my garden.
These ones are tougher:

Helleborus torquatus
Helleborus odorus
Helleborus croaticus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 21, 2011, 03:34:26 PM
A great plant, Ian.

I tried H. x ballardiae once, but it did not survive in my garden.
These ones are tougher:

Helleborus torquatus
Helleborus odorus
Helleborus croaticus


Thomas my ballardii is in a pot but spends most time outdoors

Your species are lovely most of  mine are barely breaking through ground so far except multifidus hercegovinus below. Perhaps I will have something to show later.

Maggi and David thanks
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Thomas Seiler on February 22, 2011, 09:39:30 PM
Here are some more:

Helleborus multifidus subsp. multifidus
Helleborus niger 'Sunset' and Galanthus 'Lady Beatrix Stanley'
Helleborus niger subsp. macranthus
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on February 23, 2011, 04:20:02 AM
Nice photos of some nice forms of the species, Thomas. And great ballardiae, Ian.

Here is H. thibetanus and a couple of H. torquatus blooming now.

 

 

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: fleurbleue on February 23, 2011, 08:58:23 AM
For Helleborus lovers, we have posted pictures of Thierry Delabroye nurseries Helleborus on our website    ;)

http://www.lesjardinsdesgrims.fr/page_16.html
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on February 23, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
Joseph, welcome, it's good to have you begin posting.

Joseph is involved with http://www.hellebores.org/   8)




 Nicole, thanks for that link   8)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 23, 2011, 10:31:14 AM
Nice photos of some nice forms of the species, Thomas. And great ballardiae, Ian.

Here is H. thibetanus and a couple of H. torquatus blooming now.

 

 



Welcome Joseph and nice photos. I have found your website very useful
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Tony Willis on February 23, 2011, 07:30:42 PM
Welcome Joseph,we have met before on Garden Buddies. Are you now  back permanently in the US ?
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on February 24, 2011, 04:28:12 AM
Thanks everyone. I look forward to learning from this excellent group.

Hi, Tony. Yes, I moved back a few months ago, so it's nice to be able to enjoy the garden again. It's great to see you here.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on February 24, 2011, 05:20:23 AM
P.S. Tony, I just looked through the 2010 hellebore thread and noticed your conversation about H. thibetanus germination and the cotyledon issue. Here is visual proof of the cotyledons (they are not photosynthetic or meant to be above ground perhaps), but then this raises the question of the above ground/below ground topic.  ;D It might be anomalous, but I've seen it a couple of times. Either way they're ephemeral. If one is not looking they might disappear in one day.

(http://www.hellebores.org/images/thibetanus.seedling.jpg)

(http://www.hellebores.org/images/thibetanus.seedling1.jpg)

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: t00lie on February 24, 2011, 07:54:25 AM
P.S. Tony, I just looked through the 2010 hellebore thread and noticed your conversation about H. thibetanus germination and the cotyledon issue. Here is visual proof of the cotyledons (they are not photosynthetic or meant to be above ground perhaps), but then this raises the question of the above ground/below ground topic.  ;D It might be anomalous, but I've seen it a couple of times. Either way they're ephemeral. If one is not looking they might disappear in one day.]
=================================================================================
Thanks for the pics Joseph.

Today i found seed of this sps sown June 2009 just germinating , a radicle ,(root),pushing the seed upright.It will be interesting to see how quickly the cotyledons form and appear above ground......

Cheers Dave.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Tony Willis on February 24, 2011, 09:14:14 AM
Joseph

I remember that when I had a further germination I acknowledged that I was wrong and certainly in the case of my thibetanus the cotyledons stayed underground and the first sign of growth was a leaf.

The plants are in their second year and are doing well,see picture attached. These were sown June 09 and have been kept in a cold frame over the winter where they froze. I have several others which were left in an open frame and there is no difference in the plants.

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on February 24, 2011, 05:56:19 PM
Tony, I meant to confirm that you were correct about them having cotyledons (might have misread the thread though). I think perhaps they only appear above ground like this when the seed coat is stuck on. Your seedlings look good.

Dave, good to hear you have germination. They are starting to seed around a bit here, though slowly.

I have one curious seedling in the spot I put some H. thibetanus seed in 2009. I'm hoping it's Helleborus x belcheri. I randomly try pollen between H. niger and H. thibetanus when I can, but in the open garden it's tough to say. The closest H. niger is about 15 meters away.



Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Roberto G on February 25, 2011, 06:58:40 AM
Dear friends
Here the picture of an uncomom wild atrorubens guttatus from Will Mc Lewin flowering now in my garden
Roberto
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 27, 2011, 07:30:01 PM
Dear friends
Here the picture of an uncomom wild atrorubens guttatus from Will Mc Lewin flowering now in my garden
Roberto

Interesting plant that Roberto I have not heard of this one before

Here are a few of mine

H torquatus a Will Mclewin collection
H purpurescens from wild collected seed

H atrorubens (I think) from wild seed
H multifidus bocconei same
H niger Blackthorn Strain

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 28, 2011, 06:48:07 PM
Here are a couple of my seedlings that I "retrieved" from my allotment. The colour is more intense than shown here. I think they are amongst the best I have raised. The first is what is called a Neon which I crossed with an Ashwood Neon and a deep yellow plant. The second is a Yellow spotted with my best Lemon yellow one, both I like better than their parents
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Luc Gilgemyn on February 28, 2011, 07:18:33 PM
Excellent plants Ian !!  :D
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on February 28, 2011, 07:54:31 PM
Two crackers there Ian-how long from seed please?
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on February 28, 2011, 07:57:17 PM
At last! Here are my first hellebores for the season. The last time I saw them like this was December 2009 - before the extremely cold winter that year started mid-December. This, almost as cold, winter started even earlier - mid-November. But today I can imagine the spring :D

(Nothing for you from warmer places)

PS: Ian, your yellows are marvellous!
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on February 28, 2011, 11:35:24 PM
Two crackers there Ian-how long from seed please?

Both  took 3 years to flower but the second plant is 4 years old. I have raised about 100  plants many of which are good but not particularly outstanding. The allotment is useful for this.

Luc and Trond thanks

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Roberto G on March 01, 2011, 07:06:58 AM
Flowering today an anemone picotee hybrid
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on March 01, 2011, 07:36:22 AM
Ian, nice neons but that H. torquatus is so rare and exquisite! 'Neons' can be easily bought or bred these days, but that dark plant is magnificent. Those who have not visited wild colonies may not share in my excitement.  ;D All nice plants though . . .
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on March 01, 2011, 05:42:33 PM
A few from the garden today. Sorry about the shots that include my fingers most of mine seem to have flowers that look at the soil. Apart from 1 which I've had for years, 2 which is a self sown seedling that I just left to grow and 6 which is a seedling Stella Tracey raised (won in the raffle at our last local AGS group meeting), all the others are from the Harvington series which seem to be the only ones available at local garden centres here. Now if only Ashwood Nurseries were nearer!

   
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on March 01, 2011, 07:02:25 PM
Ian, nice neons but that H. torquatus is so rare and exquisite! 'Neons' can be easily bought or bred these days, but that dark plant is magnificent. Those who have not visited wild colonies may not share in my excitement.  ;D All nice plants though . . .

Joseph

I also like the torquatus very much but I think that many regard these as an acquired taste preferring the bigger and more colourful ones ;) I find the species particularly slow to grow and very fussy about conditions.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on March 01, 2011, 07:03:28 PM
Been busy there David - very nice
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on March 01, 2011, 08:34:38 PM
Been busy there David - very nice

Thanks Ian. What's very pleasing to a Yorkshireman is that none of the ones I bought cost me more than £6.99
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: alpinelover on March 01, 2011, 08:43:30 PM
Some Helleborus orientalis hybrids in the garden.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on March 02, 2011, 06:28:57 AM
Dave and Frankie, all very nice plants.

I also like the torquatus very much but I think that many regard these as an acquired taste preferring the bigger and more colourful ones ;) I find the species particularly slow to grow and very fussy about conditions.

Ian, I agree on all fronts. They are small and sometimes fussy. Statistically though, yours is exceptional.  ;)

Still early here, but here's an interesting and large-flowered hybrid bred by Marietta O'Byrne.

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Hoy on March 02, 2011, 07:44:59 AM
Hellebores are among my favorite plants! No less after seeing these magnificent plants in this thread ;D
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: ian mcenery on March 02, 2011, 06:45:37 PM
Dave and Frankie, all very nice plants.

I also like the torquatus very much but I think that many regard these as an acquired taste preferring the bigger and more colourful ones ;) I find the species particularly slow to grow and very fussy about conditions.

Ian, I agree on all fronts. They are small and sometimes fussy. Statistically though, yours is exceptional.  ;)

Still early here, but here's an interesting and large-flowered hybrid bred by Marietta O'Byrne.



 Joseph interesting what is the parentage do you know? It looks like some double vesicarius on steroids  ;D

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Joseph on March 03, 2011, 06:10:22 AM
On the tag, it says something like "From double green with purple and veined back." I bought it in Oregon last year. Some tags give the specific cross and some don't. I have a few of these in this general range. Some mention torquatus. I think what they've done is produced large hybrids with torquatus-like markings. The doubles in this range are called 'Jade Tiger' and the singles are called 'Jade Star'. I think most of their pollinations are now crosses between hybrids in these strains rather than with species.

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Paul T on March 03, 2011, 07:09:19 AM
Some absolute crackers of plants in here.  Brilliant.  Too many nice ones to mention most of them, but I do have to comment on that double torquatus look shown by Joseph.  Totally unlike anything else I've ever seen.  :o

Thanks all.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Michael J Campbell on March 15, 2011, 09:44:49 PM
A few Helleborus Ashwoods hybs in bloom here .
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Michael J Campbell on March 15, 2011, 09:46:33 PM
A few more. Sorry two of them are a bit fuzzy.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Maggi Young on March 16, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
A grand selection Michael. 
The hellebore flowers are just beginning to open here.Just as well most are downward facing or they'd be drowned.  :-X
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Regelian on March 16, 2011, 10:59:54 AM
Michael,

wonderfull flowers!

Here is a seedling that just popped up, as they do.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: David Nicholson on March 16, 2011, 07:05:13 PM
Lovely seedling Jamie.

What a stunning collection Michael.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: WimB on March 17, 2011, 08:51:24 AM
Nothing as stunning as the wonderful hybrids shown above but here some H. x hybridus are flowering also:

Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Regelian on March 17, 2011, 09:24:36 AM
Nice, Wim,

as well as the other shots you have posted today.  Looks like I'm less than a week behind you in season.

I notice you cut your Helliborus right to the ground.  Do you do this in Autumn?  Winter?  Does it effect bloom at all?  Doesn't look to be a problem.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: WimB on March 17, 2011, 09:50:46 AM
Nice, Wim,

as well as the other shots you have posted today.  Looks like I'm less than a week behind you in season.

I notice you cut your Helliborus right to the ground.  Do you do this in Autumn?  Winter?  Does it effect bloom at all?  Doesn't look to be a problem.

Thanks, Jamie.

I cut them down to the ground in winter. Normally somewhere in January. It doesn't effect the blooming at all and I think it looks tidier and it gives a clearer view of the flowers.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: galanthophile on March 17, 2011, 11:42:17 AM
I now have far too many hybridus plants but many of the seedlings have turned out to be better than the parent plants. No sign of my torquatus yet which is a shame as it's a plant I acquired last year after wanting it for some time. My thibetanus flowered when I first got it but for the last couple of years I just have leaves but at least it is still growing. One of the thibetanus was supposed to be a white form but it turned out to be pink.. The trials and tribulations...!
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: daveyp1970 on March 17, 2011, 06:48:56 PM
Just a couple from me.
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: Arykana on March 19, 2011, 06:48:45 PM
I am very envius  ::) :o :o those duble helleboruses are so beautifull


my first one
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i76/arykana/2011/hunyor.jpg)
Title: Re: Helleborus 2011
Post by: RichardW on March 24, 2011, 01:37:42 PM
a few of mine, nothing named just a few favourites.

the first is a new plant which has pink veins, mature leaves look great but flower is nothing special.

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal