Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
General Subjects => Flowers and Foliage Now => Topic started by: kalle-k.dk on July 18, 2007, 07:11:30 PM
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Three lily there got flowers just now in July.
Karl Kristensen.
Denmark
www.kalle-k.dk
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Karl,
The colour of that martagon is just stunning!! What a gloriously dark flower. I have yet to see in the flesh any martagon other than the "usual" basic pinky purple and the alba...... given how difficult I have found martagon to grow here (maybe last 2 or 3 years if I'm lucky before dwindling out) I think it will be a while before I ever do. Colour forms like THAT one though would have me finding the right position I think. All 3 of the Liliums are lovely, but that in particular. Thanks for showing us!!
It's really strange to think of Liliums flowering now....... it's the dead of winter here at the moment!! ;D
Although, come to think of it there are buds on some of the early Frits now such as F. purdyi, biflora and for the first time ever obliqua This last one is particularly special as it was seed sent to me by Jack Elliot when I first joined the online gardening lists back around 98/99. He was just some nice man on the list who sent me seed, only later did I find out who he was. They were some of the first bulb seed I ever sowed, so they have special interest to me. Not exactly ideal conditions and I nearly lost them a couple of years ago, but they have recovered and I have a first bud on one. Not Lilium exactly I know, but they're closely related. The closest things I can identify to Lilium in July in my neck of the woods!! :-[
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Close ups of flowers can of course be stunningly beautiful but PLEASE try to take also a picture of the general habitus of the plant.
The carniolicum flower in the picture is so close to a martagon that I cannot see the difference. A picture of the whole plant would help me identifying it if I see it again.
Paul. Do you want seed of cattaniae? it usually comes true from seed.
Martagons are essentially forest lilies that go a long way on the short interval between frozen earth and full tree canopy.
They do need a cold period for proper vernalisation just like Trilliums do. Just Like Trilliums they should be moved just after flowering time not when dormant.
I do not know if this is helpful. perhaps you know already.
Göte
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Göte,
We definitely get cold enough for vernalisation of most things. -8 or -9'C each winter usually does it nicely! Trilliums just love it here, at least in most cases. Your comments about the short "sunshine" period confirms what I have assumed..... that the martagons struggle here in the summer heat. I bought a pot of martagon last spring at one of our local Canberra Horticultural Society shows but I haven't been game to touch it to check whether the bulbs are still there. I'll just keep monitoring it for roots coming out through the holes, which should be a good indicator. I have put it into a fairly strongly dappled shade area where it won't dry out completely, yet shouldn't hopefully remain too wet either. We'll see how it goes. After the heat of last summer it will be a good test. I would love to try some seed if you are able to spare any at some point.
I also haven't forgotten about the Trillium rivale seed for you Göte (nor yours either Gunne-Bert) but I figure at this stage I might as well wait a month or two and send you some fresh stuff, instead of the seed which has been stored damp since harvesting last year. Hopefully this year my health will behave somewhat better than the last few years and I can do a better job with the trading I have promised. The last few years have NOT been easy. <sigh> Keep your fingers crossed everyone!! ;D
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Göte,
Paul's place is colder than mine, and v. cattaniae does well for me. In an ordinary year I'm lucky if I see half a dozen very light frosts, but overnight temps drop close enough to 0 C for vernalisation.
Paul,
You know how long my growing season is. I'd agree with you that it's more likely that heat is the problem. Perhaps deeper shade and either planting directly into the soil or into a larger pot/poly box (and, if you want me to ask about anything other than the Podophyllum get in touch PDQ mate).
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Göte,
The danish name for Lilium martagon is “Ring lily” refer to the leaves and as you can see on the picture the leaves are not sitting as a ring around the stem. The colour of the lily I call Lilium carnoilicum ssp. albanicum is not like some of my Lilium martagon.
I made this lily from seeds, as I got for a few years ago from the Swedish garden society “Trädgårdsamatörerna” www.tradgardsamatorerna.nu On the seed packet the was a name Lilium pyrenaicum ssp. carniolicum var. albanicum. I am surprised that there was Subspecies and Varieties in the same name.
I know Lilium carniolicum are so close to Lilium pyrenaicum it has been written as a Subspecies to this species. I know also L.c.albanicum has hairless leaves and the flowers are yellow or old-gold. I can not find so much more information about it and therefore I have kept the name even my lily don’t have yellow flowers.
Karl Kristensen.
Denmark
www.kalle-k.dk
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Karl,
The foliage in your picture looks like the sort of incomplete whorls that martagon sometimes shows. I'd be inclined to agree with Göte. What is the bulb like? Jointed scales would be the clincher.
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Karl,
Wonderfully coloured lilies. Well done!
Paddy
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Paddy,
Thank you for the kind words.
Rob Krejzl,
As I toll you before, it is lily I made from seeds STA.1376/2001. I know it can be wrong if I made plants from seeds. I was confused over the name ssp./var. and therefore I keep the name even I know the flowers must be yellow or old-gold. Thank you for helping me with identified this lily and it will be my best Lilium martagon, any of my other L. martagon has this colour.
For two years ago I got a lily from Chen Yi, China as Lilium sp. 10. It is about 35 cm. high and it looks like Lilium davidii. Please tell what you mean.
Karl Kristensen.
Denmark
www.kalle-k.dk
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Karl,
You're right, the colour of the martagon is very nice, richer than the usual run of 'vanilla-flavoured' martagons.
Yesterday I was talking to someone who also imports Chen Yi bulbs. He too has a 'davidii' which doesn't seem to key out properly on the Flora of China key (
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=118558). I suppose 'aff.' is all we're left with.
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I am afraid that we have to become "historical"
The originally collected chinese lilies were collected 75-200 years ago when travel in the Chinese inland was difficult.
Thus only isolated "samples" of the flora could be taken - most of it remained unknown.
We then had war, war again and the Maoistic regime and nobody could collect or study.
It is only fairly recently that study and collection started in earnest again. Note that there are a number of new species that were described as late as the eighties.
Many problems remain unsolved and many new varieties are found (and some old unknown ones suddenly become abundant like rosthornii)
We cannot expect all bulbs that are imported from China to conform precisely to species descriptions that were made a long time ago using insufficient information.
We have a similar situation regarding Epimediums where a set of wonderful new species have been found very recently and some plants appear that do not fit any of the decriptions in "Epimediums".
Karl,
To me your sp 10 looks more like some variety of lancifolium (maximowiczii?) without bulbils but that is just an impression from the size of the flower. I cannot say that it is not davidii.
I am quite sure your "carniolicum" is a martagon please look at http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyreneisk_lilja The carniolicum group has quite different leaf arrangement.
Paul,
Like Trilliums martagons send out new roots at flowering time or just after. If these are damaged, there will not be much show next season. Thus replant early. Can this be your problem. I look forward to the seeds i had forgotten all aboout them Thank you very much.
Göte
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Göte,
It wasn't so much transplanting etc, as I tended not to touch them if at all possible. I had the basic martagon dwindle away in the ground as well as pots, but maybe it was just too dry at the time the root formation was taking place? I'll keep an eye on them more carefully in the future. A lot of things have had to look after themselves the last few years while my health has been bad. Things that didn't need immediate attention tended to get left to their own devices. I tried to keep watering up to them, but it wasn't always possible to attend to every individual thing. The very hot and dry summers we've had the last few things have affected a lot of things, with species Liliums being amongst the main casualties unfortunately. There were definitely a few curses over the last few years as it was realised that particular species were not returning.
Paul,
You know how long my growing season is. I'd agree with you that it's more likely that heat is the problem. Perhaps deeper shade and either planting directly into the soil or into a larger pot/poly box (and, if you want me to ask about anything other than the Podophyllum get in touch PDQ mate).
Rob,
I've always been concerned that the species Liliums won't flower with too much shade, but maybe that is an error in my interpretation of their requirements. I thought they needed a fair amount of sun, but shelter for their roots (sort of like Clematis) for them to do well. I've found that until the last couple of summers the species did well in pots (except the martagons), but the extremes we've had, and the failure of me to care for the garden, the last years have been the death nell for many of them. Maybe it is better for them to grow things in heavier shade even if they don't flower, so that I can get a colony going well enough to then be able to experiment with some individuals elsewhere. Then again, maybe I should try to narrow down the different genus I collect!!? I know me too well to think that will ever happen!! ;D
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Paul,
My experience is that some lilies do not need much light to flower and can be kept in fairly shady circumstances. These include:
Ll. martagon, hansonii, tsingtauense, amabile, superbum, szowitzianum/monadelphum. maclinae, nepalense, concolor, canadense, grayii, sachalinense.
I do not have as long experience with the Cardiocrinums, the Notholirions and Ll. lopophorum, amoenum and lankongense but they also seem to belong there.
Martagon will grow to flowering size in a deciduous forest situation where there is a "window in time" between late winter when frost recedes and early summer when the trees start robbing all light and moisture. The problem with martagon and some of the relatives is that unless they have a good root system in the spring, they do not grow at all well and they need to complete that root system before the cold dormant (vernalisation) period. Of course in this case cold does not mean frozen but around 4°C and thereabouts.
I would not use pots in a very warm or cold climate. The pots will not buffer the temperature as soil does. Instead the bulbs are subject to the extremes.
Hope this is helpful in some way.
Göte
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Paul,
You'll remember I tried (and failed!) to pick up some L. primulinum bulbs the other week. The reason I was given for their failure was that they were grown in a black plastic pot and got too hot - and this in Tassie, from someone who looked to be even more obsessional about the subject than me. Last year I had a (quite exceptional) week of continuous 30+ temps in the summer; your summer temps I wouldn't have on a bet mate.
Göte's right - the larger the soil volume the more stable the temperature (and water) levels are. A poly box is a good halfway stage between pot and ground, especially since the foam is white and a fair insulator, but a garden bed has to be better.
As for the degree of shade, I'm already on a lattitude equivalent to Portugal and you're a good deal north of me. Our light intensities are that much greater than most of these poor benighted Europeans ( ;)), so deeper shade is sensible. How much shade you need you'll only begin to know the year after you've tried it.
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Göte and Rob,
Very interesting information there. Thanks. I have lankongense return for me numerous years in full shade, but it never flowers for me. Cardiocrinum giganteum planted right near it grow and flwoers regularly when it is large enough (periodic dieouts etc mean I need to grow on younger ones so I by no means get flowers every year. They love the conditions where they are though.) Now if Göte is growing those species in shade where he is, then for us that would be very heavy shade I would imagine, so that opens more possibilities. I didn't realise that Notholirion prefer shade..... might explain why mine have never done so well. They grow but never flower, but I've been meaning to experiment. I had thought it might be too hot and that was why they were multiplying instead of staying to flowering size, so I guess that confirms it. Thanks!
My reasons for using pots generally is for controlling watering. I find that in my conditions some of the classic "certainties" of gardening don't apply. For instance I rarely use terracotta pots for my bulbs because they almost invariably rot, yet they do fine in black plastic pots. This is supposed to work the opposite way around. It has happened to me enough times now that I KNOW for me that terracotta pots stay wetter for me than plastic, yet everyone else apparently KNOWS the opposite!! My plants and pots obviously don't read the books. I can't explain it, but it works out that way. Even friends here in Canberra have their terracotta behave the normal way, so it is something in my own practises or microclimate that does it for me...... but I know it now so I work with it. If something needs more water I often use terracotta now, but I find that plastic usually works fine for me. Go figure!!??
Thanks again for the help.
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Paul,
It probably means heavy shade during your hottest season less shade when cooler. In the spring, I have low temperatures but much more light since the trees have no leaves. This is the time when the martagons bulk up.
A fact is a fact is a fact - even if it is an unusual fact. Your pot experience probably says something about your micro climate but I cannot figure out what it is.
Lankongense is fickle in my place so please note my caveat about that one.
Göte
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My filled Lilium martagon, picture taken a week ago.
http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_plena_183.jpg (http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_plena_183.jpg)
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Magnar, has that L. martagon always been double, or is this a new development this year? I have never seen such a double martagon. I prefer the "ordinary" single type, though your double is a good colour.
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It has been like this all the time. I got bulbs from a friend..
I attach a photo of another filled one where yuo can see a new bud coming out of the already opened flower.
And then a photo of the beautiful L. m. var cattaniae.
http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_p7204737_759.jpg (http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_p7204737_759.jpg)
http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_v_cattaniae_167.jpg (http://www.lysthaven.dk/forum/files/lilium_martagon_v_cattaniae_167.jpg)
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The double almost looks hose-in-hose-in-hose. Mmmm. I prefer the single too, especially var. cattaniae.
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Two pictures from earlier today; the true L. taliense (not "var. kaichen"), a huge lily almost 2 meters/6.5 feet tall; and L. bakerianum v. delavayi:
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Magnar & Arisaema,
Fabulously beautiful lilies - and photographed excellently.
Many thanks, Paddy
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Now, that L. taliense is what I call a "Big Lil"... what a beauty! :o
Seeing the L. bakerianum makes me think that ours has died out..... :'(
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Arisaema,
I have problems with bakeriana. I think it cannot stand my cold winters.
Do you have any trick- like growing in a pot or do you have warm winters?
Talinense is also not quite hardy but slightly better.
It is a fabulous talinense by the way.
Göte
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Magnar,
The double martagon is interesting.
You must have noticed that most Lilium have two bracts to each pedicel.
Sometimes one of the two bracts sits on the pedicel itself. Sometimes the pedicel has a secondary pedicel in which case there is but one bract for each.
Umbellate lilies have the bracts assembled as a whorl at the botom of the umbel. If one counts the "leaves" (bracts), one finds approximately two "leaves" to each pedicel.
Sorry for being long-winded but my question is: How many bracts? Do you have one or two where the peicel leaves the stem?
Do you have any green "leaf" that can be interpreted as a bract somewhere in the flower or near to it?
I hope it is not too late in the season to ask.
Göte
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Göte;
I cheat ;) Bakerianum stays in a pot plunged into the ground of a unheated greenhouse during the winter, and it has survived -15C there. Previous attempts outside have never been successful, I think winter moisture is a bigger problem than frost.
L. taliense has been fully hardy here in "swedish zone 2"/USDA zone 7 for 5 years, even first year seedlings have survived. It seems it needs full sun to do well, seedlings planted in shade are much less vigorous than those in sun.
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Just catching up after being away on fieldwork. Enoyed reading this thread - super pix too. Magnar's L martagon var catanniae reminded me of the deep claret coloured martagon we found on MESE, growing in a semi-shaded spot beside a large pinnacle of limestone on Mount Vermion, and which we named 'Naoussa Boutari' after an excellent bottle of local red wine!
The plant I know as Lilium albanicum is a small thing, also seen on MESE on serpentinite bedrock on the Katara Pass; as far as I know this is an endemic.
I've attached pix
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Göte,
Sorry, I was away, to Sweden, actually, and now it's too late to answer yuor questions about the filled Martagon.
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I am not surprised. It is late in the season. I will try to remember next year.
Have a nice day
Göte