Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => NARCISSUS => Topic started by: ArnoldT on December 23, 2010, 03:37:16 PM
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A miniature Narcissus from Brian Duncan flowering today.
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The capacity of these little narcissus to flower at this time of year and so delight us in winter is unsurpassed, I reckon. I think it is a shame that becasue of the lack of shows at this time of year there are many thousands of people who just have no idea that these small bulbs even exist.
A very sad state of affairs since most are not difficult to grow.
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.... and if only my greenhouse would thaw I might have some too in the next few weeks. Nice one Arnold.
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From the non singing Nancy Wilson.
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;D ;D ;D
Nice one too Arnold.
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Thanks David.
I had a lot of trouble trying to send the message in. Tried all day yesterday and kept getting a busy server note.
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Nice to see your narcissus, Arnold. Mine have been held in suspended animation for weeks, but are finally starting to open. Hope to be able to post some too, soon.
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Nice to see your narcissus, Arnold. Mine have been held in suspended animation for weeks, but are finally starting to open. Hope to be able to post some too, soon.
Same here.
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Can I still expect my N. cantabricus to flower this winter? Good growing but no signs of flower buds yet. I always thought that the bulbocodiums were autumn flowering ??? ???
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Can I still expect my N. cantabricus to flower this winter? Good growing but no signs of flower buds yet. I always thought that the bulbocodiums were autumn flowering ??? ???
Hans - my experience of N. cantabricus is that it usually flowers in the first half of January. However, this year the cold weather seems to have delayed these plants as Anne noted above.
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Thanks Gerry, so I'll keep a close watch. I keep it in my greenhouse at 5C. I have some other species growing fairly well and I wonder if they will flower this winter/early spring: N. dubius and N. pachybolbos
It would be great to have some "phenological chart" on all those Narcissus species to have at least an indication when to expect flowering...wouldn't it?
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Fine narcissus Arnold!
An unknown one close to N. tazetta (becomes very large, about 1m) and much smaller the first N. albidus foliosus (received as N. cantabricus ssp. cantabricus var. foliosus).
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Maybe not fully open.
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Narcissus romieuxii 'Treble Chance'
Selected from JCA805 by Bob Potterton in the mid 1970s.
About 4 weeks later than last year.
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Love this picture Gerry, very beautiful Narcissus romieuxii!
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Thanks Hans. I guess you grow these outside!
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If lovers of Crocus are Croconuts & lovers of Galanthus are Galanthophiles, perhaps lovers of Narcissus should be Narcissists?
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I agree, Gerry.... the difficulty lies in getting them to come away from the mirror and admit to it! ::)
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;D ;D ;D
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I took this picture on 2 January of N cantabricus x romieuxii ?not sure if this is correct,I have to admit to a small fan heater in my greenhouse,I switch on if the forcast is lower than minus 3 even so the water in the can froze to quarter of an inch thick on the coldest of the days.
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I'm guessing that will be Narcissus 'Camoro' - mine is just a little behind yours.
Personally, I am happy to be a daffanatic :P
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I agree, Gerry.... the difficulty lies in getting them to come away from the mirror and admit to it! ::)
And didn't he fall in love with his mother as well?
Yes, I prefer daffanatic, many of whom are daffantastic. :D
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I agree, Gerry.... the difficulty lies in getting them to come away from the mirror and admit to it! ::)
And didn't he fall in love with his mother as well?
Yes, I prefer daffanatic, many of whom are daffantastic. :D
or just Dafft? ;D ;D ;D
Lesley, check out the thread on "plants named after Greek gods, etc" for the info on Narciss - you may be thinking of Oedipus! ("Oedipus-Smedipus can't you see how much he loves his mother!")
cheers
fermi
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Daffy Ducks.
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Anne will your N. Camoro be at the Loughborough event in four weeks time I remember you had a few pots of bulbs there last year.
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N. hedraeanthus
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N. hedraeanthus
I suspect not Arnold. Perhaps a form of N. romieuxii?
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Looks like I had a mislabeled bulb.
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Tony, I hope so. Arnold, I think your little white one is a rather nice cantabricus, going by the white style.
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A friend sent me a large box of twenty five or so miniature Narcissus. I was madly opening small paper bags and labeling and potting
Who knows what other errors there are.
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But what delightful surprises in store! :D
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Tony, I hope so. Arnold, I think your little white one is a rather nice cantabricus, going by the white style.
My first thought was N. cantabricus but on my screen the style looks yellowish, hence my suggestion of N. romieuxii. Possibly a hybrid?
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It is always makes me happy to find Narcissus tazetta in the wild,
its scent is just extraordinary!!
These photos were taken yesterday in the Jordan Valley.
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Stunning pictures once again Oron !! 8)
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Lesley, check out the thread on "plants named after Greek gods, etc" for the info on Narciss - you may be thinking of Oedipus! ("Oedipus-Smedipus can't you see how much he loves his mother!")
cheers
fermi
Yes of course Fermi. Apologies. A bad mix-up and I hadn't been drinking either. :D
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It shows how little we can rely on our monitors having the same colour rendition, Gerry. We'll have to get Arnold to report on the real thing!
Wonderful photo, Oron.
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It shows how little we can rely on our monitors having the same colour rendition, Gerry. We'll have to get Arnold to report on the real thing!
Wonderful photo, Oron.
Just had another look Anne. On my screen the style looks greenish near the tip shading to yellowish further down. Come on Arnold - put us out of our misery!
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It would be VERY early for a cantabricus, I'd have thought...... having someheat on might have pushed it, of course, but still early enough to lean towards romieuxii for my money!
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I have two Narcissus from my Mid-Anglia bulb sale haul coming into flower, labelled romieuxii and cantabricus. The weather should be better tomorrow, so I'll try to take some photos (a Tulipa biebersteiniana is also starting to flower).
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OK, tomorrow in the daylight I'll try a close up of the style.
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Amazing amazing amazing!! I love these kind of images, Thank you Oron!
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Here is my romieuxii.
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A few of mine,hope the names are correct.
Narcissus albidus
Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus.
Narcissus bulbocodium coll 96/198 Morocco. Brian Duncan
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Beautiful plants Michael & the photos are superb. As to names - I think the last is almost certainly N. bulbocodium but the first two - who knows? The published descriptions (in Blanchard) of ssp. albidus suggest great variability while var. mesatlanticus is said to have yellow flowers.
Edit
On second thoughts, the first one does look like N. albidus as posted on the forum. But there are other bulbocodiums which are rather similar, e.g. N. zaianicus. These plants manage to be both irresistible & infuriating.
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I wonder what the distinction is between albidus and cantabricus - I must look it up.
Meanwhile, here are some new hybrids flowering for the first time after a long wait while they were frozen:
Narcissus Rijnveld's Early Sensation x Cedric Morris, a little drawn as I took it to a meeting yesterday.
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Also Narcissus Julia Jane x bulbocodium 'Moulay Brahim'
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Anne, I like the Julia Jane cross but can't say I'm keen on the RES x Cedric Morris. Sorry :-[
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Here there are many Narcissi blooming in the greenhouse, but I have problems again with my computer to post in pictures PhP forums..
In the nature there is blooming the species we call Narcissus albicans and many of them are currently forming capsules!. I would say this is the first Narcissus blooming in the wild, between December and January, the second one could be N. pallidiflorus.... Some botanist don't support this name N. albicans and I think the problem cantabricus/bulbocodium/albicans? (and possible subsp.) are not resolved yet by taxonomist... Anyway I call it Narcissus albicans.
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Here's another shot of the mystery Narcissus.
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Here's another shot of the mystery Narcissus.
It is a bit of a mystery Arnold. The flower on the left with its yellow style I would identify as a form or hybrid of N. romieuxii. But the one on the right with a distinctly green style - I've never seen the like! (I'm assuming my computer is displaying the colours more-or-less accurately).
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David - no need for apology! We shouldn't all like the same thing, that would be boring. I was looking to get a very early flowering trumpet daffodil, so I'm happy, but I'm hoping the other seedlings might be smaller,
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It might look green because it is in the shade, but certainly not white, anyway, so probably a romieuxii or hybrid??
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Also Narcissus Julia Jane x bulbocodium 'Moulay Brahim'
That's an interesting cross Anne. To my eyes the 'Julia Jane' characteristics seem to predominate in terms both of flower shape & colour ('Moulay Brahim' I remember as quite a strong yellow?)
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You're right, Gerry.
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Superb Narcissi everyone!
Oron, i am fascinated to see Narcissus tazetta in the wild (with this great background :o)- it seems they flower much earlier than here and grow in drier conditions.
A picture I took in the garden today - Narcissus albicans foliosus (or might be Narcissus cantabricus foliosus ::))
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A picture I took in the garden today - Narcissus albicans foliosus (or might be Narcissus cantabricus foliosus ::))
I love the N tazetta, Oron, but even better are the N cantabricus (or whatever), they are my absolute all time favourite narcissus, fantastic to see them in the open ground, instead of shivering under glass ::) (and perhaps that's Iris planifolia hiding on the right side?)
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Thanks everyone. I can change a label now.
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Happy new year for all :)
Narcissus romieuxii var. mesatlanticus '筑波の花火(Tsukuba-no-Hanabi)', a bizarre deep split hoop petticoat, is blooming. It is said that original plant was found by a Japanese alpine lover, from a bunch of normal mesatlanticus seedlings delivered from ARGS seed distribution.
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Bizarre is definitely the right word. The poor thing looks as if it would really like to be Iris danfordiae!!!!! split personality as well as split corona. ???
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These things do occasionally appear, and here are swiftly dispatched to the compost heap. As I've said before - it's good we do not all like the same things.
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A couple of seedlings in flower here.
Narcissus mesatlanticus seedling. This flower is twice the size of romieuxii flowers.
Narcissus romieuxii, seedling
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This is very common in the wild in N. hedraeanthus and N. blancoi populations.
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Michael, sowing seeds is very fun, isn't it? That brings us such unexpected pleasure occasionally. I like your both seedlings.
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This is another Narcissus romieuxii var. mesatlanticus just added to my collection. I spot it at an alpine nursery stand in a local orchid show last weekend. Perhaps it is one of the common forms between mesatlanticus but I have never seen such mesatlanticus with reflex corona before. And I was amazed when checked the label. This plant came from SRGC seedex! Though I should post pictures of my own growing plants, please excuse this exception. I want to say thank you for a SRGC member who donate this wonderful mesatlanticus seeds ;)
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Tatsuo, I mostly just "lurk" on Narcissus topics, I like them but don't grow many, but I love the look of this one with the gracefully reflexed corona... superb. It looks just like a yellow petunia. And it's so dwarf too. Well grown.
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Tatsuo - I think that these more-or-less petunioid forms are not uncommon in seedlings of N. romieuxii but yours is a particularly attractive one.
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Tatsuo - I think that these more-or-less petunioid forms are not uncommon in seedlings of N. romieuxii but yours is a particularly attractive one.
--- indeed, an extraordinary form.
I add a pic of a 'normal' romieuxii which is flowering just now.
the other pics are autumn flowering daffs (serotinus, x alleniae) - but they are nearly 'frozen'
since weeks - so 'Winter Narcissus'.
Gerd
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That is a remarkable form, Tatsuo, and well grown. Gerd - they are still looking good, and don't seem to have suffered from the cold.
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That's a lovely hybrid, Gerd! Is it one you're created yourself or one found in the wild?
Speaking of autumn daffs, I need some help "defining" Narcissus miniatus. Seed of it from the AGS Seedex has been confiscated by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) because it isn't on ICON (the "allowed" list). Do some people still consider it a ssp of N. serotinus? Or when was it re-classified? Any help I can get to do battle with bureacracy would be appreciated!
cheers
fermi
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Speaking of autumn daffs, I need some help "defining" Narcissus miniatus. Seed of it from the AGS Seedex has been confiscated by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) because it isn't on ICON (the "allowed" list). Do some people still consider it a ssp of N. serotinus? Or when was it re-classified? Any help I can get to do battle with bureacracy would be appreciated!
A few years ago, N serotinus was split into N miniatus for the Western Med species, and N serotinus for the Eastern Med species.
However ::) (I'm not sure this is going to help) it seems that very recently there have been further changes to N miniatus
and it is now N obsoletus
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/synonomy.do?name_id=281989 (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/synonomy.do?name_id=281989)
On this page you will see other synonyms, including N serotinus in various subspecies. Hope that helps you get it through
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That's a lovely hybrid, Gerd! Is it one you're created yourself or one found in the wild?
Speaking of autumn daffs, I need some help "defining" Narcissus miniatus. Seed of it from the AGS Seedex has been confiscated by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) because it isn't on ICON (the "allowed" list). Do some people still consider it a ssp of N. serotinus? Or when was it re-classified? Any help I can get to do battle with bureacracy would be appreciated!
cheers
fermi
Thank you, Fermi. My Narcissus x alleniae are created by mother nature. It is a viridiflorus-miniatus cross. I received them (well prepared by heat treatment in summer) in October 2010.
To miniatus/serotinus:
Not much to add to Dianes comments. Until recent changes were published (beginning with Donnison-Morgan et al., 2005) these plants were simply labelled 'serotinus'.
Gerd
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Thanks for comments. I've already done self pollination to my petunioid mesatlanticus and am hoping to get some seeds now.
Gerdk, I like your N. x alleniae with ice green perianths in the last pic.
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Hi, just loving pics and comments. However, as I am new to this forum, I thought it only polite to introduce myself and this posting seems as good a place as any to start. A neighbour got me hooked during a visit around his garden and soince then I've been growing a 'broad church' of alpine plants and some bulbs for a few years, attending AGS shows, local groups etc. It's been great fun since - with lots to enjoy and great company along the way ;D. Growing from seed and/or cuttings is and watching plants develop is (perhaps) the best part. Settling down to a liking for Campanula, Saxifraga, Narcissus and an odd eclectic mix of small cushions (not Dionysia, which I quickly found easy to dispatch to an early burial). And, I still have MUCH to learn ???. Getting more of a broader interest in 'bulbs' these days. I do find this a very informative site and, once I get used to posting, incl pics, I want to contribute a little.
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Hello Eddie, it's great that you have begun to post.... we'll look forward to yousharing your gardening experiences with us. These plants are just captivating, aren't they? So beautiful, often challenging to grow.... so much to catch our interest ... and keep it!
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Brian Duncan selection.
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That is stunning! :D
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To miniatus/serotinus:
Not much to add to Dianes comments. Until recent changes were published (beginning with Donnison-Morgan et al., 2005) these plants were simply labelled 'serotinus'.
And the N miniatus on the AGS list were donated by Derrick Donnison-Morgan, as Gerd says, he published the split from N serotinus in 2005 in the Narcissus year book.
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Hi Eddie, and welcome. You can't do better than read Ian Young's Bulblog every week to learn things you didn't even know you needed to know!
See: http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb
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- Gerd, your x alleniae is very special! Are the three pics three different plants? The first one looks greener (like having more N.viridiflorus in it), but I´m not sure if that´s because of the light. Although I prefer "pure" species, this one is really great!
- Does anyone know if Narcissus perezlarae is definitely considered a species or a hybrid (N x perezlarae, N.cavanillesii x N.serotinus)?
- Narcissus tazetta has finally decided to flower also in the wild here (later than yours, Oron!). Distribution in the wild here Spain is not certain, as it is suspected to have increased the range with human "help". It is thought to be native, at least, in north-east and Balearic Islands. Where I live, it is usually found near human enviroments (these pictures were taken near Orange crops, as can be seen in the second pic, and sometimes they can be found IN orange crops, like Arum italicum and the much more extended alien Oxalis pes-caprae)
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Narcissus x perez-larae is the cross between N. cavanillesii and N. miniatus (I personaly prefers to use N. deficiens). N. miniatus is the plant with orange corona, regular tronco-conic perianth tube and occur in almost all Mediterranean countries. It usually has 1-4 flowers per escapo. In Spain it occurs in levante and very few populations in Córdoba, Jaén and Sevilla.... In addition, it has a very probable hybrid origin between N. elegans (I use N. obsoletus) and N. serotinus
Narcissus serotinus is the species that occurs in Extremadura, Algarve and Sevilla. It has greenish/yellow corona, and the perianth tube is not regular, it changes like a bottle. I tusually have 1 and rarely 2 flowers per escapo.
Narcissus x perez-larae is being fertile in Valencia and is currently called N. piifontianus F. Casas. I found also some plants of N. piifontianus in Cádiz.
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Gracias, Rafa!
Thank you very much for your promt reply! Very interesting, although I´m now much more confused: Narcissus perezlarae is described as cavanillesii x serotinus in the "Catálogo Valenciano de especies de Flora Amenazada", dated 2009, and "Flora Iberica", in PDF of the 20th. volume, is even more confusing about this "species": N. x perezlarae is said to be an hybrid between N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus, the latter being also of hybrid origin between N. serotinus x N. elegans. So now I´m having a headache... Next autumm flower-hunting will be full of interest! Thank you again!
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Sorry Juan,
You are right it is very confusing.
Well, I don't support most of things in this Volume of Flora Iberica and I support botanist like A. Barra and F. Casas.
There are currently two tendencies concerning this autumn narcissi group. I will try to explain.
There is an herbarium sheet with something similar to N. elegans called N. obsoletus but very confusing, collected in Andalusia.
Botanist like Díaz Lifante & Andrés Camacho consider it is in fact N. miniatus, so they support N. elegans.
Botanist like F. Casas consider this plant N. obsoletus corresponds to N. elegans, and suggest an older name for N. miniatus = N. deficiens.
In Flora Iberica you will see:
Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus)
But if you reed the articles from F. Casas, you will see:
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. elegans)
Narcissus deficiens (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. deficiens) -----fertile----> Narcissus piifontianus
The hybrid in both cases have to be changed by other name, in my op pinion, as it has been described with N. serotinus L. as a parent, and this is wrong.
In addition, N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus = N. x alentejanus, with 3 variants, the one that Gerd described before "var. moronensis", an intermediate "var. knochei" and "var. alentejanus"
I am sure there is also N.x alentejanus fertile, because they follow the same evolutive process....
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- Gerd, your x alleniae is very special! Are the three pics three different plants? The first one looks greener (like having more N.viridiflorus in it), but I´m not sure if that´s because of the light. Although I prefer "pure" species, this one is really great!
Juan - the pics show three slightly different plants of the hybrid. There are indeed specimen which are very close to N. viridiflorus and others that look more like N. miniatus. I was told that there are fertile and infertile ones occuring. If you look back in this Forum in 'Autumn flowering daffodils' you'll find some pics from Rafa who visited these endangered plants in their natural habitat.
Rafa also tried to explain the complicated matter of some other autumn flowering daffs.
Gerd
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This narcissus from Spanish Levante, and Mediterranean countries with orange corona it has been described many times with other names, but also they have been always cancelled in favor of Narcissus serotinus L. this is why I consider N. miniatus is not acceptable, because whatever it will be the tendence you support, there are many older names, therefore, prioritary name is N. deficiens or N. obsoletus.
I never seen this herbarium sheet, and even the botanist are not very sure if N. obosletus corresponds to N. elegans or N. miniatus.
Appart the "Names War" it is generaly accepted that this narcissus is a succesful hybridogen species between N. elegans (or N. obsoletus) and N. serotinus.
Once you are familiar with this group of plants you can not get confuse and now I can't understand why botanist pass so many time mixing N. deficiens and N. serotinus in the same bag. And I think the same concerning: N. albicans/N. cantabricus; N. cantabricus/N. blancoi and N. hedraeanthus/N. blancoi.
Master Gerd, I am sure N. x alleniae will be fertile soon, due the reduction and isolation of the localities.
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Yesterday in the post I received two dormant and beautiful bulbs (remember it's high summer here) of Narcissus tazzeta var (or ssp) patulus, from a generous "lurker" on the Forum (N. 'Betty May' has been seen at UK shows) and with a little information to the effect that it came to her from Mary Evans many years ago, Mary being a NZer who collected in the company of Paul Furze on some occasions.
I saw this lovely plant, potted and in flower at a late autumn meeting in 2010 and had never seen anything similar. I was totally taken with it and Betty has kindly pased along the bulbs which I'm to plant immediately in a warm spot. I'll do that today.
She said, Rafa, that you had mentioned this on the Forum at some time. Can you give me any information about it, or a reference for the Forum posting? There seems to be almost nothing about it anywhere except the occasional mention of the name alone. Google isn't much use either.
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Lesley, it's Betty MAE
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Thank you Gerd. I´ll read with carefully the autumn daffodil thread.
- Rafa: thank you so much for your lesson! Very interesting. I´ll try to look for plants next autumn trying to keep all this in mind. It´s been really great to read your comments. Thank you, Master! You know very well your subdits! :)
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Lesley, you are very lucky!
David's link (now removed)just opens the search page but a search for Betty Mae( I edited his post) will bring you quite a lot of info.
This post gives some good stuff ( after I uncrossed my wires, at the time!!)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg5763#msg5763
Edit by Maggi: Sorry, got mixed up... Betty has given you the 'patulus'?
Ian has been researching that for Betty .... to no great advance.... seems an elusive thing to pin down... if very lovely!
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Lesley, try Daffseek, there is a record of N. patulus, but I don't really think these plants are expontaneus in France....
We have a locality, probabily expontaneus of a little and robust N. tazetta, that remeber something between N. canaliculatus and N. patulus.
More studies are needed...
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Lesley, you are very lucky!
David's link just opens the search page but a search for Betty Mae( I edited his post) will bring you quite a lot of info.
This post gives some good stuff ( after I uncrossed my wires, at the time!!)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg5763#msg5763
Edit by Maggi: Sorry, got mixed up... Betty has given you the 'patulus'?
Ian has been researching that for Betty .... to no great advance.... seems an elusive thing to pin down... if very lovely!
Did I mis-understand ???
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No, I did! :-[
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I still do. What has Betty Mae to do with Narcissus tazzeta var (or ssp) patulus?
Anyway, Here are some updated shots taken this morning of seedlings flowering for the first time. I wonder if David will like the smaller siblings of the Cedric Morris cross I posted earlier?
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I still do. What has Betty Mae to do with Narcissus tazzeta var (or ssp) patulus?
Nothing.... Lesley was explaining that Betty Clark, who was kind enough to give her the patulus, was the person for whom the delightful Narcissus'Betty Mae' was named.
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Ah!
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Ah! also ;D
Anne, David does like the smaller Cedric Morris seedlings and he like all of the little beauties you posted.
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Thank you both, David and Maggi. I do apologise to Betty and to the Forum for mis-spelling her second name, perhaps because my mother was Alison May. :) Yes, Anne, I used the name because it was Betty (always just Betty here) who most kindly gave me the bulbs along with several other scarce things and some rare seed.
So yes, I mis-spelt, but the bulb's provenance was correct as to source, in spite of the terse email I received from another Forumist telling me it was not. Funny, that using the name at some stage, in an email sent to that person, takes out the connotation of rudeness.
When I saw Betty's potful at a late autumn meeting last year, it was like seeing a brand new daffodil of great beauty and charm. I feel very fortunate that she has shared it with me. It is potted now and I hope I'll be able to show a picture of it in flower later on. In the meantime, I'll do the looking up suggested above. Thank you everyone here.
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Yes, Lesley, the provenance of the N. patulus as you said, was what we have learned from Betty Clark, too.
I can only think that someone thought you were ascribing that provenance to Narcissus 'Betty Mae' which of course, you were not, you were referring to the fact that Joan Whillans named the plant Betty Mae for Betty Clark. (And, of course we can all know the story of that daff,from the link given above to other Forum posts about 'Betty Mae')
Lesley was told by Betty, of the N. patulus :" that it came to her from Mary Evans many years ago, Mary being a NZer who collected in the company of Paul Furze on some occasions".
Interestingly Betty has "custody" of a number of Mary Evans' plants and I must post, in the Colchicum pages, some notes we have had from her for some time about some of these.
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A quick and fairly superficial search on Daffseek doesn't help much. The photos don't really "gel" with Betty's and it is described as spring flowering while hers was in full flower at the meeting of 1st June (December in the NH), hardly spring. Never mind, we'll go on looking and hopefully seeing the flowers again in a few months.
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Mary was a great and much loved and respected alpine and especially bulb grower who unfortunately died quite a few years ago now. She had a comprehensive correspondence with many of the "old brigade" of gardeners/collectors, such as Furze, Polunin and others. She was impatient of meetings and gatherings to a large extent and was something of a loner but was happy to share her knowledge and plants. I remember one occasion when visiting her garden with Ashburton AGS, I went to the loo and was directed to the bathroom where the bath was full of freshly mixed compost! (I'm sure she had a separate shower though. :))
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Narcissus romieuxii treble chance.
2-6= Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus hybs
7-9=Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus x camoro hybs
10 Seedling bench.
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Mary was a great and much loved and respected alpine and especially bulb grower who unfortunately died quite a few years ago now. She had a comprehensive correspondence with many of the "old brigade" of gardeners/collectors, such as Furze, Polunin and others. She was impatient of meetings and gatherings to a large extent and was something of a loner but was happy to share her knowledge and plants. I remember one occasion when visiting her garden with Ashburton AGS, I went to the loo and was directed to the bathroom where the bath was full of freshly mixed compost! (I'm sure she had a separate shower though. :))
Sorry to be pedantic, but the name was Paul Furse (Admiral Paul Furse if you like).
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Narcissus romieuxii treble chance.
2-6= Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus hybs
7-9=Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus x camoro hybs
10 Seedling bench.
What a beautiful show Michael.
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Thanks David,I do my best though sometimes it is not good enough. :)
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I am trying hard not to be jealous when I see how many flowers other forumists have got coming into bloom now.... It's not easy :-X
We managed 10 degrees C in the middle of the day today but there was a cold wind which wiped some of the benefit out. :P
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We were also lucky enough, a couple of years ago, to be given the N. patulus by Betty. It is hanging on here but and not flowering yet. Betty told us she had been given them by Mary Evans who supposed them to be N. tazetta patulus as to her knowledge that was the only fit with the information she had gathered from the 1966 American Hort soc. James Wells and John Blanchard’s books. It has a white perianth with pale lemon cup while all others appear to have a yellow cup. Through this Forum Betty discovered that someone had photos that appeared to be the same plant, the same under N. tazetta ochroleucus ( which Flora Europaea gives as a synonym for Narcissus tazetta L. subsp. italicus (Ker Gawl.) Baker ) and she believes this may be the ID. Betty told us that foor her it was Winter flowering in NZ, April and with a large dark brown bulb. She grows it so well in NZ and after 30 years has it in 2 spots against concrete block wall and for the last few years collected a small amount of seed which needs the winter heat to set. She is so happy with it and it is perfumed too.
We hope for a flower soon!
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Gerry, it's not my day, is it. Of course I knew it was Furse, and yet again, my apologies. :-[
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Michael, some lovely flowers there - now the hard bit, deciding which to keep! (unless you have extra greenhouse space in a parallel universe...)
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Michael, some lovely flowers there - now the hard bit, deciding which to keep! (unless you have extra greenhouse space in a parallel universe...)
I definitely agree. It is one of the most difficult things to select a few particular plants among seedlings.
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N. romieuxii subsp. albidus var. zaianicus MS. 168 has flowered. It blooms 1 month later and puts far less flowers than usual :(
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Aren't they lovely little things YT.
Mine are coming thick and fast now, here's
Narcissus romieuxii ex JCA 805 'Julia Jane'
N. bulbocodium var. genuinus
N. bulbocodium Morocco Form x bulbocodium nivalis, one of Brian Duncan's
N. cantabricus var. foliosus
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David:
Very nice, brightens up the day.
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Thanks Arnold. It was a grey and grizzly all day today but I felt happy (well almost ;D ) in the greenhouse.
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All loveley, David ! :D.... and the real, genuine Julia Jane !! :D
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Well mmmmmmmm Luc. That's what I bought my original bulb as, from Miniature Bulbs in 2008. But you never know do you!!
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All loveley, David ! :D.... and the real, genuine Julia Jane !! :D
Probably not Luc. Ex possibly. To the best of my knowledge,the only person on the forum who has the genuine article (from Rannveig Wallis) is annew.
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David:
Can you tell me about the scent of these miniature Narcissus. I brought one into the house and there was a faint scent.
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Well, it's not far off, David. You do well to put 'ex' before it, though. I think they were seedlings. My JJ isn't out yet.
Arnold - a lot of them are scented, especially if brought into a warm place, some quite strongly. Sometimes, taking a lot of pots to a show in sunny weather, the scent can be quite overpowering.
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All loveley, David ! :D.... and the real, genuine Julia Jane !! :D
Probably not Luc. Ex possibly. To the best of my knowledge,the only person on the forum who has the genuine article (from Rannveig Wallis) is annew.
I was wrong. Rob Potterton also appears to have the real thing which he states is vegetatively derived from original bulbs supplied by Jim Archibald in 1971. See here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2870.msg70619#msg70619
The corona of Rob’s plants appears identical in shape to those grown by Anne whose plants are here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=245.msg4949#msg4949
My own plants from Pottertons are just coming into flower. When the coronas have fully expanded I’ll post a photo.
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Narcissus romieuxii subsp. albidus var. zaianicus
According to Jim Archibald: “Wild seed produced an amazing range of forms like the Ifrane N. romieuxii populations [JCA 805]. The name is not worth much....”
This form, with ascending flowers which keep their colour well, was selected by Rannveig Wallis.
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David:
Can you tell me about the scent of these miniature Narcissus. I brought one into the house and there was a faint scent.
Arnold, I think I'm a bit olafactorily challenged, too many cigarettes in my younger days perhaps, the only one I get a real scent from is N. fernandesii var. cordubensis. I'll get Maureen to run her nose over them, her nose seems to be first class as she often tells me off for having a crafty smoke in the garage ;D
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A very nice one Gerry !!!
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I find the scent of the romieuxii forms overpowering and quite cloying, in some forms, to the extent I've put the vases with them in, outside.
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I've never noticed any scent on forms of N. romieuxii but, like David, I spent too much of my life smoking. I'll have a sniff tomorrow. The best scent I know is that of N. calcicola but most jonquils smell nice.
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I find the most powerfully scented is 'Atlas Gold,' another from the Archibald 805 collection. A pot of that with, say, 50 flowers will knock you over, but then, I never smoked a thing in my life, except an occasional trout when I was younger. ;D
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Lesley:
Which end did you light?
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;D ;D ;D
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I find the most powerfully scented is 'Atlas Gold,' another from the Archibald 805 collection. A pot of that with, say, 50 flowers will know you over, but then, I never smoked a thing in my life, except an occasional trout when I was younger. ;D
My 'Atlas Gold' are not yet in flower but this morning I sniffed those forms of N. romieuxii which are. No scent to speak of.
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I have N. r. rifanus which is strongly scented - it's not out yet but it will be fairly soon I think.
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The head end Arnold, as the tail end was easier to hold between the fingers. ;D I can't advise smoking a salmon though. They can be 18 kilograms in weight here, and jolly hard to hold any way at all. And the scales are so big, I don't like them in my mouth.
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Narcissus cantabricus guardian :o
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Beautiful Rafa! You must be having mild temperatures if Buthus is not wintering!
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This morning I visited a Narcissus cantabricus location that I've searched during years, not successful again this time... It is very important to me as it is the only place known in the Planet where N. nivalis Graells and N. cantabricus DC. are growing together making hybrids (N. x neocarpetanus F. Casas. So frustrated... I decided to check another location not far from the other. It wasn't in bloom and it frozen this morning -3º. I retired a stone to see the buds from N. cantabricus and BINGO, this beautiful Scorpion was sleeping. After make some pictures I cover it with the same stone, in his beautiful house!.
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Ha! Perhaps I should find one to keep my captive narcissi company!
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Narcissus romieuxii ssp. albidus var. zaianicus x cantabricus
From a collection by Mike Salmon & Mark Fillan (SF 165). Morocco, Zaian Mts, nr. Aguelmouss.
A gift from Luc Gilgemyn
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Ha! Perhaps I should find one to keep my captive narcissi company!
...specially to keep these little and friendly narcissus hybrids you gorw! :)
Gerry I have in bloom the same plant from Mike collection, very interesting one...
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two pics, Narcissus bulbocodium subsp. validus and Narcissus cantabricus.
This subsp. validus is also not clear to many people. For Flora Iberica is just N. bullbocodium L., for other botanist is N. turgidus Salisb. and for others ,subsp. validus.
To me is absolutely different from N. bulbocodium L, but concerning the correct name I can't say nothing about it. I collected as subsp. validus.
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Sorry Juan,
You are right it is very confusing.
Well, I don't support most of things in this Volume of Flora Iberica and I support botanist like A. Barra and F. Casas.
There are currently two tendencies concerning this autumn narcissi group. I will try to explain.
There is an herbarium sheet with something similar to N. elegans called N. obsoletus but very confusing, collected in Andalusia.
Botanist like Díaz Lifante & Andrés Camacho consider it is in fact N. miniatus, so they support N. elegans.
Botanist like F. Casas consider this plant N. obsoletus corresponds to N. elegans, and suggest an older name for N. miniatus = N. deficiens.
In Flora Iberica you will see:
Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus)
But if you reed the articles from F. Casas, you will see:
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. elegans)
Narcissus deficiens (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. deficiens) -----fertile----> Narcissus piifontianus
The hybrid in both cases have to be changed by other name, in my op pinion, as it has been described with N. serotinus L. as a parent, and this is wrong.
In addition, N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus = N. x alentejanus, with 3 variants, the one that Gerd described before "var. moronensis", an intermediate "var. knochei" and "var. alentejanus"
I am sure there is also N.x alentejanus fertile, because they follow the same evolutive process....
I update my comment here, since having a chat with the authorities in this genus. There is an agreement and this issue is definitively closed recognizing the following species.
Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (= N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
Maybe it will be another surprise concerning N. elegans...
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Speaking of autumn daffs, I need some help "defining" Narcissus miniatus. Seed of it from the AGS Seedex has been confiscated by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) because it isn't on ICON (the "allowed" list). Do some people still consider it a ssp of N. serotinus? Or when was it re-classified? Any help I can get to do battle with bureacracy would be appreciated!
A few years ago, N serotinus was split into N miniatus for the Western Med species, and N serotinus for the Eastern Med species.
However ::) (I'm not sure this is going to help) it seems that very recently there have been further changes to N miniatus
and it is now N obsoletus
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/synonomy.do?name_id=281989 (http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/synonomy.do?name_id=281989)
On this page you will see other synonyms, including N serotinus in various subspecies. Hope that helps you get it through
Thanks for your help, Diane.
The seed were released to my care last week! ;D
cheers
fermi
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That is a very nice cantabricus Rafa.
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Thank you Anne
Here N. cantabricus with his son N. x matritensis
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Thanks for your help, Diane.
The seed were released to my care last week! ;D cheers fermi
That's great news. We look forward to seeing the results ... in a year or three ;D
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Thank you Anne
Here N. cantabricus with his son N. x matritensis
Very interesting Rafa. Is this a natural hybrid? What was the other parent?
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Gerry, this is the new name for N. x susannae, (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus), the mother is N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus
N. x litigiosus del Amo (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) and the mother is also pallidulus.
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:o :o :o - Wow Rafa, what a beauty!
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If you don't grow it, you will have it next summer ;)
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Gerry, this is the new name for N. x susannae, (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus), the mother is N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus
N. x litigiosus del Amo (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) and the mother is also pallidulus.
This hybrid and N cantabricus are among my all time favourite plants. I just looked up this "new" name for the hybrid as I thought it was what I have called N x susannae and I found this picture in the wild. This is a superb shot showing the hybrid alongside the parent. Hope that's Ok with Rafa to post the link
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo233123.htm (http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo233123.htm)
It seems to show the hybrid as a lot bigger than N triandrus, is that correct, Rafa or just due to perspective on the photo?
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You are right Diane, this particular plants were bigger than N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus, there were dozens of hybrids with 1,2,3 flowers, and clumps with more than 40 bulbs! In this particular place there were also N. x litigiosus which is more cream.
Talking about natural crosses this is a plant that I am currently studying, one of the most rare hybrid I ever seen N. graellsii x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus. Here the mother was N. triandrus susbp. pallidulus, but there is another variety, when N. graellsii is the mother.
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If you don't grow it.....
Unfortunately not... ;)
very beautiful Hybrid - looks similar to the picture of N. munozii-garmandiae I have seen.
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N. munozii-garmendiae?
Hans, this name is for a member of asturiensis group.
http://www.treknature.com/viewphotos.php?l=3&p=152284
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Rafa, thank you for sharing the pics of such unusual and exciting narcissuses! It’s hard for me to recognise such charming natural hybrids are existed in the wild because even parents species (under right names) are rarely seen in cultivation here.
It’s very interesting those perianths of charming "N. graellsii x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus" are broader than both parents.
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N. munozii-garmendiae?
Hans, this name is for a member of asturiensis group.
http://www.treknature.com/viewphotos.php?l=3&p=152284
Very confusing all ::) - but I am in very good company ;) - see http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4766.75 reply 88.
I think it was in Blanchards book I had seen the picture.
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I wonder if there is a nice nursing home somewhere for the care and rehabilitation of confused gardeners?
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I'm currently living there, Maggi....
Rafa, such beautiful flowers, you take my breath away.
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Stunning flowers and pictures Rafa !! :o :o
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Anne.... is the food okay?
Rafa, last night at our Group Meeting we had David Millward ( Dr Rock) as our speaker ( and a very good talk it was too) and when he was speaking about Narcissus cantabricus he mentioned "King Rafa, of the Forum" and there was a loud murmur of recognition and appreciation - so there are lots of readers out there enjoying your valuable contribution to the world of narcissus 8)
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Gerry, this is the new name for N. x susannae, (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus), the mother is N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus
N. x litigiosus del Amo (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) and the mother is also pallidulus.
This hybrid and N cantabricus are among my all time favourite plants. I just looked up this "new" name for the hybrid as I thought it was what I have called N x susannae and I found this picture in the wild. This is a superb shot showing the hybrid alongside the parent. Hope that's Ok with Rafa to post the link
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo233123.htm (http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo233123.htm)
It seems to show the hybrid as a lot bigger than N triandrus, is that correct, Rafa or just due to perspective on the photo?
Thanks for this link Diane. And thanks Rafa for a wonderful photo of beautiful plants.
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Hans:
Sorry my good friend!, This is a mixtake N. muñozii-garmendiae as an hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. triandrus susbp. pallidulus, porbably due not very good comunication between Spanish/Portugues botanist and Bristish botanists.
This name in honour to Prof. Felix Muñoz Garmendia has been used to describe Narcissus pseudonarcissus subsp. muñozii-garmendiae, as an endemic species from Ciudad Real. In my oppinion is not a pseudonarcissus is an endemic asturiensis from this region. This group of asturiensis make many lineages and its difficoult to recognize them. There are some valid characters like perianth tube form and others characters... but there is a geographical distribution, very clear and helpfull in relation with these lineages. The species I support are:
Asturiensis Group
N. asturiensis
N. jacetanus
N. salmanticensis
N. muñozii garmendiae
Tastsuo:
This is one of my interest as a SRGC member, foment our most ornamental species donating seeds, in my oppinion, the only friendly environmental way to introduce the species in our gardens. I enclose a virtual herbarium sheet with both hybrid variants, as I returned all these plants to the wild.
Maggy:
Really?!! hahaha you are joking hahaha. I think I am not worthy of this title, I only use to talk with Narcissus botanist like F. Casas or A. Barra to know the currently studies.
Anne:
There are many different names (in some cases older in other newer), new species every year..., this is Botany. In Narcissus genus there is a Battle and maybe that I told in this forum this year will be not the same next year. Flora Iberica is making a very general key, enough to me..
Gerry:
It is my pleasure :D
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Rafa - I think your virtual herbarium sheets are just great. More please!
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I think Narcissus Genus is explained through the hybrids. For example, I consider Narcissus nivalis Graells, as an independient species from N. bulbocodium L. Why? (nobody are agree with me :-\ ;D) Well, this is because the relantionship between N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus with both species is different. N. nivalis only can donate the female gamets in N. triandrus pallidulus crosses = N. x consolationis and N. bulbocodium only can donate the male gamets in the same cross = N. rozeirae. They only can acting like this.
One of the reassons for consider N. graellsii Graells as a valid species, separate from N. bulbocodium is because it can acting as a father or mother, with pallidulus. Something that N. bulbocodium can't do.
I am trying to find the only place known were N. nivalis and N. cantabricus make crosses to compare with N. bulbocodium and n. cantabricus crosses. I am sure they will acting different.
I only have 3 virtual herbarium sheet because I started last year. In this season I will also try to make N. x ponsii-sorollae, N. x nutans, N. x turgaliensis and N. x lopezii.
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Some shots from my bulb house. The narcissus brighten up an otherwise miserable day.
Lots to come
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Here's a better shot of some Narcissus romieuxii
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An impressive display Art ! :o
Are you thinking of starting your own bulblog soon ?? ;D ;)
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That would require skills I do not possess.
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A couple of ones from today
Atlas Gold Treble Chance one of Rob Pottertons and N Romieuxii which came to me as "ex Fred Hunt" a lovely strong yellow
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A couple of ones from today Atlas Gold one of Rob Pottertons and N Romieuxii which came to me as "ex Fred Hunt" a lovely strong yellow
Pale one is nice but not Atlas Gold. Good yellow one looks true. My original N Atlas Gold came from Rob P - but they looked like the yellow one not the pale one!
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I agree with Tony - 'Atlas Gold' is much the same colour as 'Fred Hunt'. Both are nearly out here.
Despite the cold, aphids seem active (in the central flower).
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A couple of ones from today Atlas Gold one of Rob Pottertons and N Romieuxii which came to me as "ex Fred Hunt" a lovely strong yellow
Pale one is nice but not Atlas Gold. Good yellow one looks true. My original N Atlas Gold came from Rob P - but they looked like the yellow one not the pale one!
Gentlemen thank you
It is Treble Chance just another senior moment ::)
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Despite the cold, aphids seem active (in the central flower).
Yes it is only when I processed the photo that I noticed this one. Tomorrow I will check them all and be the Grim Reaper
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Superb narcissi everyone!
Rafa, your virtual herbarium sheets are magnificant! :o
Hans:
Sorry my good friend!, This is a mixtake N. muñozii-garmendiae as an hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. triandrus susbp. pallidulus, porbably due not very good comunication between Spanish/Portugues botanist and Bristish botanists.
This name in honour to Prof. Felix Muñoz Garmendia has been used to describe Narcissus pseudonarcissus subsp. muñozii-garmendiae, as an endemic species from Ciudad Real. In my oppinion is not a pseudonarcissus is an endemic asturiensis from this region. This group of asturiensis make many lineages and its difficoult to recognize them. There are some valid characters like perianth tube form and others characters... but there is a geographical distribution, very clear and helpfull in relation with these lineages. The species I support are:
Asturiensis Group
N. asturiensis
N. jacetanus
N. salmanticensis
N. muñozii garmendiae
Thanks a lot Rafa! Think I should go to the spanish mainland to study some of the beauties. ;)
Arthur, I really enjoy your pictures of your beautiful collection in your neat greenhouse - wish I would be able to keep my garden in similar conditions . ::)
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Here is the real (?) Narcissus hedaeanthrus growing in a pot of impostors. Also Narcissus bulbocodium praecox.
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Narcissus asturiensis
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Here is the real (?) Narcissus hedaeanthrus growing in a pot of impostors. Also Narcissus bulbocodium praecox.
The bottom pic looks like the real thing Arnold. Very nice too.
Is it warm in New Jersey? Your plants are more advanced than mine here.
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Gerry, Thanks, I was holding my breath as I hit the 'reply' button. I have all of my Narcissi in a minimally heated lean to greenhouse. I have the heater set to go on at 44 F. The temp gets up to 55-60 during the daytime with sun hitting the spot. I've had the vent open around mid day. I know that the flowers wilt if it gets too arm.
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Arthur, I really enjoy your pictures of your beautiful collection in your neat greenhouse - wish I would be able to keep my garden in similar conditions . ::)
Hans
And I wish I could keep my garden as tidy as yours. :)
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A real toughie this one N Cedric Morris forming a nice little clump
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You don't get to see them in a clump like that very often Ian !
Real beauties ! :D
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Nice collection developing there Arnold.
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Thanks, David.
Have some pots of seedlings coming along. But needed some bulbs to fill the void!
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You don't get to see them in a clump like that very often Ian !
Real beauties ! :D
Thanks Luc it does seem a very good and tough little plant. It usually starts flowering around Xmas time then often goes on till the end of Feb. Really good value as a plant.
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A lovely picture of Cedric, there, Ian.
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A lovely picture of Cedric, there, Ian.
Thanks Anne do you know its parentage is it a species selection or a hybrid? It does seem rather early
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Narcissus 'Cedric Morris ' was collected in the wild as a variant of N. minor in 1956
DaffSeek has the story...
http://daffseek.org/query/query-detail.php?value1=Cedric%20Morris&lastpage=1&
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Narcissus 'Cedric Morris ' was collected in the wild as a variant of N. minor in 1956
DaffSeek has the story...
http://daffseek.org/query/query-detail.php?value1=Cedric%20Morris&lastpage=1&
So does John Blanchard. Collected by Basil Leng in northern Spain (nr. Ribalden) & cultivated by Sir Cedric Morris for several years. Hence the name. Apparently Basil Leng revisited the site some years later but found all the plants had disappeared as a result of road widening.