Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Crocus => Topic started by: Oron Peri on December 09, 2010, 06:09:53 PM
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Came back from a two weeks trip to Jordan last Saturday after leading a group from the AGS,
We haven't seen many autumnal bulbs as this year is extremely dry.
Last time it rained in Jordan was Early March 2010.
Very few Crocus in flower, still not ones one see every day.
C. pallasii ssp. haussknechtii grows in semidesert conditions at high altitudes [above 1500m] with typical shorter inner petals before opening.
One of my favorites, C. hermoneus ssp palaestinus, growing at about 900-1000m
around Amman, unfortunately risking extinction due to massive construction throughout its habitats.
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Oron,
thanks for the images from the wild.
I'm amazed repeated times how the croci can flower under such semi-dessert conditions. Great nuts! ;D
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Crocus species nova,
This is a species i have already shown here a year ago.
It is a stable intermediate form between hermoneus and cancellatus.
Large population can be found in the S Golan Heights [Syrian teritory occupied by Israel].
When i described this form i got information that it has also been seen around Ajloun in Jordan.
This time i have menaged to find a population in that area and it is the same one.
Same flowers, little variation, and same typical corm.
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Thanks for showing us these wild crocuses. When I give my crocus lecture I include a picture of your species nova and tell the story of your finding it. Will it be described as Crocus perii ;)
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Oron, very nice crocus pictures from wild and thank you very much for sharing your knowledge on these bulbs. I also will put to my own archive this intermediate crocus, as a new find of you!
And I want to ask also about 'Crocus naqabensis' from Jordan?
I have only this information;
Crocus naqabensis differs from the closely related to C. pallasii by having reduced tunics that are not forming a neck, white glabrous throat and chromosome number 2n=14
Maybe you have seen any sample of this crocus?
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And on your new find, even the end of floreson there is no sign of leaves but on the second picture (fron Isr.) there are quite long leaves!
Is it might be cause of altitute?
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Wonderful photos and most interesting information Oron !
Thanks for showing !
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And on your new find, even the end of floreson there is no sign of leaves but on the second picture (fron Isr.) there are quite long leaves!
Is it might be cause of altitute?
Ibrahim, I was going to ask the same question, thank you!
A lovely crocus, Oron.
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Thanks all for the comments and suggestion for a name ;)
Ibrahim and Maggi,
This species generally doesn't have leaves when in flower, they appear by the end of flowering time.
The last photo was taken last year which had good early rains, as a result some of the plants were with well developed leaves, as you can see other plants as well are in an advanced growing stage.
Regarding C. naqabensis, it is still a sort of mystery to me as i have been to the area where it should grow: Ras - A- Naqab but found only C. pallasii hausknechtii.
Another person from the Crocus group went there a few times, same thing.
I don't say it doesn't exist only that there isn't any report since it was described years ago, any way I'm still looking for it....
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Thank's Oron for this pictures.
The C. hermoneus palaestinus picture is stuning :o
I think there is still a lot to learn about this genus with so many variations, natural hybrids,....
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Many of my autumnal Crocus are just starting to flower this year after a very long and hot summer, here are few from this morning.
The aleppicus is a rare form growing in restrict coastal area of N. Israel in my opinion it is much closer to C. veneris than to aleppicus.
C[1]. aleppicus - Coastal form
C[1]. cambessedesii
C[1]. cartwrigthianus Crete
laevigathus
C[2]. ochroleucus
moabiticus
C[1]. moabiticus
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Nice display Oron ! Makes a change to all this white out here... ;D
Amazing how late they are in your area !
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Lovely to see them Oron. The coastal C aleppicus is quite unlike the forms we cultivate here and in flower quite different from the C veneris that I have grown. What features make you think it is closer to C veneris? Could this be another new taxon?
The C moabiticus give me hope that my plants might be true. Certainly the flowers are very alike. I must make a proper study of the leaves and corm to confirm.
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Thanks Luc..here it is a bit cloudy today... ;)
Lovely to see them Oron. The coastal C aleppicus is quite unlike the forms we cultivate here and in flower quite different from the C veneris that I have grown. What features make you think it is closer to C veneris? Could this be another new taxon?
The C moabiticus give me hope that my plants might be true. Certainly the flowers are very alike. I must make a proper study of the leaves and corm to confirm.
Tony, look at the second moabiticus, you can see the typical white, thorny cloves at the tip of the leaves, typical to this species. cartwigthianus doesn't have this feature.
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Regarding the aleppicus coastal form,
the photo from this morning is a particularly dark/striped form.
Generally this form has small sized flowers, thinner petals, much smaller then the ones of the Upper Galilee and Golan Heights populations.
The habitat is completely different, coastal form is at sea level as C. veneris, most flowers are white but often tinged purplish.
It may well be a new taxon, but as i already have two new taxons in mind I'm afraid it would seems I'm inventing new taxons each season... ;)
these photos are better for comparison.
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Superb as usual Oron !
Crocus does'nt wait a long time to flower after rain ;D
I agree with you with the big differences between the last 2 Crocus. Are the leaves and corms also different ?
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Stunning Crocus Oron! :o
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Thank you Fred and Hans,
Here are better photos from this morning of C. aleppicus Coastal dark form.
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Yesterday i went to photograph a small colony of C. hermoneus ssp palaestinus.
It is one of only 3 sites we know in this part of the Jordan River, just off the Palestinian city of Ramallah.
Unfortunately this ssp. is risking extinction in Jordan as well as in Palestine as it grows in very populated areas.
it is most unusual to see it growing in company of C. hyemalis.
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Just as I was feeling a slight Crocus shortage, Ian brought in a few C. laevigatus flowers which are scenting the room nicely and then I found these photos from Oron.... Crocojoy! 8) 8)
Further Crocojoy in the fact that a review copy of Janis' book has arrived here.... see Ian's latest Bulb Log, just online....... http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2010Dec221293031039BULB_LOG__5110.pdf
[attach=1]
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I also brought some flowers in from the cold today, the first flower is Crocus sieberi from Didima which opened almost immediately, the second and third is of a late flowering C. biflorus ssp melantherus, also from Didima, which took a little longer to open.
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Two more from today,
Crocus laevigatus from Evia with a wonderfull scent.
Crocus aleppicus, typical form from its southmost distribution in South Jordan.
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Melvyn and Oron lovely plants to see when mine are frozen in their pots,brightens the day.
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Oron & Melvyn
You have brightened my day. Here it is frozen and even in the bulb house I have not got Crocus in flower.
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Thank you Arthur and Tony, glad these photos brighten your cold days.
Yesterday i went to visit a friend and took these photos in his Garden, since there was not much light photos came dark.
The first is C. graevolens from South Lebanon, just a few Km north to the Israeli border.
These populations bloom from Mid December to Mid January, much earlier then the northern populations in Turkey.
An intresting fact is that this population lack the typical scent of C. graveolens, the first to notice it was Brian Mathew who received corms from this area in the 70's by the late Prof. Feinbrun which described it as C. vitellinus.
Second photo is C. hyemalis with unusual dark markings on its petals reminding some forms of biflorus.
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Oron,
Many thanks for beautiful pictures enlightening evening after another day of snowing. Yesterday it was almost impossible to open house doors - so great snow heap was in front. About entering greenhouses I even stopped to think...
Merry Christmas to everyone!
Janis
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Oron, wonderful pictures! thanks for posting them.
Here are some of mine early bloomers!.
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I thought I'd take a photo of C. michelsonii in bud as it still looks fairly natural - unfortunately, by the time the flowers open, it's always very etiolated. I wish I knew how to prevent it...
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Thanks Oron for posting 3 beautyful bulbous items- a lovely Christmas offering:Crocus hyemaliswithouter dark markings is unusual and beautyful , I only have grown the white form.
the charming Colchicum tuviae,a gem I have not seen before and the attractive coloured form of Iris vartanii .
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Oh, happy people even now with flowers. When I will see the first one? May be you can predict the date by attached pictures from my nursery how it looks today?
All the best in coming New Year!
Janis
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Oh, happy people even now with flowers. When I will see the first one? May be you can predict the date by attached pictures from my nursery how it looks today?
All the best in coming New Year!
Janis
Last year I had much snow and cold all winter but early March warm weather reappeared and all the snow was gone in a few days!
My lawn in March:
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I thought I'd take a photo of C. michelsonii in bud as it still looks fairly natural - unfortunately, by the time the flowers open, it's always very etiolated. I wish I knew how to prevent it...
Alex, have you tried negative DIF? (That is mean daytemp lower than mean nighttemp) and more light in the red and far red and/or blue light spectrum.
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Otto Janis and Ibrahim thank you for your comments,
Janis
I do not know what is worse: your snow or our dry 26c today, i can literally see my bulbs sweating here....
Ibrahim these are beautiful species,
Is your graveolens in bloom regularly at this time of year, i can see it is from Sifilike, Mersin? in this case is it a low altitude plant?
I'm trying to figure blooms timing of this species and is there a relation to the altitude?
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To all northern crocus growers, thanks so much for your lovely pictures, and yours too Janis. They make me ever so grateful for my mild climate and appreciative of what I have. I do wish everyone in the north some warmth and sunshine and a million more crocuses soon - to share with us of course. :)
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Ibrahim these are beautiful species,
Is your graveolens in bloom regularly at this time of year, i can see it is from Sifilike, Mersin? in this case is it a low altitude plant?
I'm trying to figure blooms timing of this species and is there a relation to the altitude?
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Oron, I have a passage climate between mediterranian and terresrial so I don't have realy cold winter in this case, many of my spring bloomer plants which come from Mediterranean coast usualy bloom in late autumn. But for my native plants around Istanbul region they bloom in february!
Yes, my C. graveolens and C. r. hittiticus they are from Içel (or Mersin) - Silifke. But this crocusses in their native habitations they bloom in february. but for sure in low altitute they can bloom earler then higher altitute. C. graveolens has a large distribution. It is posible to see this plant in Center and East Taurus mountains.
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I have seen information about new find of Janis. C. speciosus subsp. archibaldii. Just I want to consult about. It was written the most important feature for this subsp. that, the leaves start to devolop just after flowers while the other subsp. never show the leaves before spring. But! I have also one speciosus with same feature! also with yellow throat! but it is quite different corner from known traditional location of xantholaimos. Of course it is not from Iran too. If so it can not be archibaldii.
First I want to know is there anybody who has C. speciosus subsp. xantholaimos which has same feature?
I want show by pictures.
First one taken 09.11.2010 (leaves show the nose)
Second one same crocus picture taken last week
The last one is standart speciosus from Abant also taken last week.
ibrahim. SÖZEN
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I have seen information about new find of Janis. C. speciosus subsp. archibaldii. Just I want to consult about. It was written the most important feature for this subsp. that, the leaves start to devolop just after flowers while the other subsp. never show the leaves before spring. But! I have also one speciosus with same feature! also with yellow throat! but it is quite different corner from known traditional location of xantholaimos. Of course it is not from Iran too. If so it can not be archibaldii.
First I want to know is there anybody who has C. speciosus subsp. xantholaimos which has same feature?
I want show by pictures.
First one taken 09.11.2010 (leaves show the nose)
Second one same crocus picture taken last week
The last one is standart speciosus from Abant also taken last week.
ibrahim. SÖZEN
Ibrahim,
C. speciosus archibaldii has - 1/ deep yellow throat
2) stigma less branched and ends below or at tip of anthers
3) Leaves start to develop just after end of blooming
4) different pattern of flower design (less important, but prominent)
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Janis, I don't think mine is C. s. archibaldii.
The leaves looks like archibaldii, throath also golden, but style and flower size are big not smaller than standart speciosus. I could not compared with speciosus from Abant, because these started to flower after when the speciosus Abant's flowers dried. And second thing just after flowers the leaves started to grow as you see on my first pics.
I attache two more picture to show throath and style.
And what about the corm!
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Just as I was feeling a slight Crocus shortage, Ian brought in a few C. laevigatus flowers which are scenting the room nicely and then I found these photos from Oron.... Crocojoy! 8) 8)
Further Crocojoy in the fact that a review copy of Janis' book has arrived here.... see Ian's latest Bulb Log, just online....... http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2010Dec221293031039BULB_LOG__5110.pdf
(Attachment Link)
That book of Janis looks magnificent!
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It is good, Arda, it is very good!
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Jordan, like other parts of middle east is in severe drought and many plants are still dormant.
I had the chance to see, after several days and lot of hikings 2 nice Crocus but very few specimens.
First one is endemic from Jordan, Crocus moabiticus, the second one is the tiny Crocus aleppicus.
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Fred, admirable two forms of C. moabiticus.
I can walk a whole week to see a crocus like that!
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Fred, Great findings :o
Crocus moabiticus is the most beautiful crocus I have ever seen...
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:o :o :o Breathtaking pics, Fred!
It must be fantastic to find this jewels in such dry conditions!
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I have thought Cr. mathewii is the most beautiful Crocus species, but Fred has shown , that there is a better one ! :o
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:o :o :o Breathtaking pics, Fred!
It must be fantastic to find this jewels in such dry conditions!
I agree with Hans ....... :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Fred - Many thanks for showing C. moabiticus which, in the wild, looks very good. I have seen it twice in cultivation where it was not at all impressive - rather miserable looking in fact. I suspect it is difficult to cultivate well.
Perhaps it is worth pointing out that there are forms of C. cartwrightianus which are virtually indistinguishable from C. moabiticus & very easy to grow.
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Stunning plants and pictures Fred !!! :o :o
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Thank's all for kind comments ;)
Miriam and Gerhard, I prefer C. baytopiorum and C. mathewii... :-[ :-[ :-X
Gerry, as always, plants looks better in the wild and it's also easier to get good pictures of them when in their natural environment.
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Fred,
Stunning photos!!!
Defiantly plants look better in the wild but you need also a good photographer ;)
Oron, I have a passage climate between mediterranian and terresrial so I don't have realy cold winter in this case, many of my spring bloomer plants which come from Mediterranean coast usualy bloom in late autumn. But for my native plants around Istanbul region they bloom in february!
Yes, my C. graveolens and C. r. hittiticus they are from Içel (or Mersin) - Silifke. But this crocusses in their native habitations they bloom in february. but for sure in low altitute they can bloom earler then higher altitute. C. graveolens has a large distribution. It is posible to see this plant in Center and East Taurus mountains.
Ibrahim thank you so much for this information,
i must go and visit that area at this time of year.
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My observations showed that specimens of same spacies planted in garden side by side keeps their blooming sequence in nature - samples from low altitudes even in garden blooms earlier than plants of same species but from high altitudes.
Janis
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I'm agree Oron, fortunately Fred was in the right place and moment. C. moabiticus.. :o
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Happy New Year.
I looked out into my garden today and spotted a patch of blue. I was intrigued and discovered a clump of crocus speciosus that must have come out after the snowfalls we have been having since the end of November. The clump has been in my garden for a few years and has always flowered at the usual time, however I was disappointed in October when only a few of them flowered. I was indeed surprised to find the rest have flowered so late. Very strange indeed.
Graeme Strachan
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Well, that's a surprise, Graeme. Poor wee souls, all bunched up under all that snow.... it's a wonder they are even recognisable for crocus at all after that ordeal.
Have you seen this thread? http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6195.0 lots of lovely flowers from autumn to chher us!
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many spring flowerers in my collection now with noses showing well. I expect flowers soon if the snow and ice stays away
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Happy New Year.
I looked out into my garden today and spotted a patch of blue. I was intrigued and discovered a clump of crocus speciosus that must have come out after the snowfalls we have been having since the end of November. The clump has been in my garden for a few years and has always flowered at the usual time, however I was disappointed in October when only a few of them flowered. I was indeed surprised to find the rest have flowered so late. Very strange indeed.
Graeme Strachan
I suppose that very hot and dry summer delayed normal blooming time of several Crocuses. Here few even only started when real winter came and I didn't see normal blooming of them.
Janis