Scottish Rock Garden Club Forum
Bulbs => Galanthus => Topic started by: mark smyth on November 25, 2010, 12:33:15 PM
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Never throw away a bulb that has been eaten by a Narcissus fly. I dread to think how many I have thrown in the bin
http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.com/2010/11/ahead-of-schedule.html (http://johngrimshawsgardendiary.blogspot.com/2010/11/ahead-of-schedule.html)
The proof - the remains of the bulbs with many bulbuls
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sfvS6qSSxkA/TOVoj0YL9zI/AAAAAAAABm8/t4217WzjBYw/s1600/Galanthus+%2527Natalie+Garton%2527.JPG (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sfvS6qSSxkA/TOVoj0YL9zI/AAAAAAAABm8/t4217WzjBYw/s1600/Galanthus+%2527Natalie+Garton%2527.JPG)
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Mark
That's a fascinating pic. Life after death!
Steve
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can i ask is that a greater multiplication rate than chipping,as i have never tried chipping has the fly got something there ;D
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Not as many as twinscaling but well done to the fly
At a lecture by Christine Skelmersdale last weekend she said simple cut in to the build base plate and put it back in the ground
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Mark I'm definately giving that a go
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Mark,
I recall, many years ago, that cutting through the basal plate of hyacinths was the recommended method of propagation. Now, I never tried it - after all who needs to increase hyacinths!
Paddy
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Mark
I found my single bulb of G.Lulu producing a weak discoloured shoot. Fearing Stag, I lifted it and found considerable damage from a careless trowel jab sometime in the summer, but a decent root system. I cleaned off as much of the dead tissue as possible, fungicided and disinfected it, and planted it in a pot with the upper part of the bulb clear of the compost level so that the damaged tissue can dry off and hopefully callus over. Now I must wait for nature to turn its thumb up or down.
Steve
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I cleaned off as much of the dead tissue as possible, fungicided and disinfected it, and planted it in a pot with the upper part of the bulb clear of the compost level so that the damaged tissue can dry off and hopefully callus over.
Steve - where I come across a damaged bulb, after soaking the bulb in fungicide and allowing the fungicide to dry, I then give the damaged part a dusting of yellow sulphur powder to aid recovery.
I would be a bit careful with leaving part of the bulb exposed to the elements as this will leave it prone to dessication or pest/bird/animal attack - after treatment, I always plant my damaged bulbs at the normal depth, but in 100% grit sand (the latter helps to reduce the chances of soil based infections), giving it some liquid feed when in active growth.
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Chris
Thanks for the advice which I will try. I'm planning to keep the bulb potted and in the alpine house for the rest of the growing season.
Steve
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Never throw away a bulb that has been eaten by a Narcissus fly. I dread to think how many I have thrown in the bin
Mark - what John G. says, does indeed work, although I am not sure whether it is absolutely necessary to grow the bulbils on as if twin-scaled.
Back in 2007 I discovered that a choice bulb of G. plicatus 'Chequers' had been almost completely eaten away by an NF grub - all that was left was the outer scale of the bulb and the basal plate had been completely eaten away. I was about to throw this outer scale away when I noticed 2 'bumps' on the outside of the scale & decided to pot this up (in my normal mix) and see what happened. One year later, I found that I now had two small bulbs, which went on later to produce flowering bulbs.
The 'bumps' were clearly embyryo 'bulbils' and I put their development into viable bulbs down to a) the outer scale acting as their food source and b) keeping the pot (which was plunged in a warm corner of a raised bed) moist at all times.
As John G. says in his blog, this needs more careful study, but I note that a not dissimilar phenomenon has been seen to occur with twin-scaling where, instead of discarding the neck of the bulb, this has been observed to produced 'bumps'/'bulbils', which have gone on to produce flowering bulbs.
I would be interested to hear of others experiences.
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Chris
Thanks for the advice which I will try. I'm planning to keep the bulb potted and in the alpine house for the rest of the growing season.
Steve
Steve - good luck with your damaged bulb & perhaps you can let us know how you get on with it.
The yellow sulphur powder certainly helps the healing process and I have had damaged bulbs treated with yellow sulphur powder that, a year on, show little or no sign of the original damage.
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I found two damaged bulbs earlier this year and planted them in pots of pure sharp sand (I think it was Phil Cornish told me to do this) - it seems to have worked and they've got little'uns coming on now.
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I gave an example from my own experience here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=209.msg5555#msg5555
The damage and the bulbil formation was all done in-situ but that particular bulb and it's descendants have never looked back since.
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Mark you can check out my experience from this 2007 bulb log link.
Bulb Log 40 2007 (http://www.srgc.org.uk/bulblog/log2007/031007/log.html /)
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I found two damaged bulbs earlier this year and planted them in pots of pure sharp sand (I think it was Phil Cornish told me to do this) - it seems to have worked and they've got little'uns coming on now.
As well as being sterile, which helps to reduce the chances of infection, the sand seems to stimulate the bulb into strong root growth.
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I gave an example form my own experience here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=209.msg5555#msg5555
The damage and the bulbil formation was all done in-situ but that particular bulb and it's descendants have never looked back since.
A good example Alan of nature's own healing process - also a good reason for leaving labels in the ground for a few years even after a snowdrop seems to have disappeared!
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Chris,
Although many a label may mark the final resting place of a treasured bulb there are occasions when leaving the label in place proves worthwhile. Mary bought G. 'Viridipice' many years ago and when it had become a congested clump we lifted, moved, spread them out and replanted them. We had no growth for about five years and on the sixth year we had foliage from one little, I imagine, bulb. It flowered two years later and was one of our lost G. 'Viridipice'. Now we have to wait for it to clump up again. The original label is still in place.
Paddy
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I found two damaged bulbs earlier this year and planted them in pots of pure sharp sand (I think it was Phil Cornish told me to do this) - it seems to have worked and they've got little'uns coming on now.
As well as being sterile, which helps to reduce the chances of infection, the sand seems to stimulate the bulb into strong root growth.
But sharp sand presumably lacks nutrients? So do you use a liquid feed or just transplant once a good root system has formed?
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But sharp sand presumably lacks nutrients? So do you use a liquid feed or just transplant once a good root system has formed?
Alan - see my earlier post in this thread (Reply#7)
By the way, I prefer to use grit sand because I think that it gives better drainage.
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Thanks Chris. I'm coming to the conclusion that I get better results growing snowdrops in pots. Pot-grown snowdrops seem less prone to insect predation, any plants showing signs of disease can be quickly isolated and the pots provide a barrier to any disease or fungus spreading through the soil from one plant to its neighbours. I wonder how your regime of grit sand and liquid feed compares to more conventional growing media?
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I wonder how your regime of grit sand and liquid feed compares to more conventional growing media?
Alan - as I only use this regime when treating plants with problems, where the emphasis is on survival/recovery rather than on optimising performance, I cannot answer your question - I can only observe that, combined with other measures, such as use of yellow sulphur powder, fungicide etc, the survival/recovery rate is high.
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The fly doesnt care if bulbs are in pots or in the ground. Two of my rare Narcissus Fairy Gold had grubs in them when I repotted them.
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...but you can soak a pot with a liquid the grubs don't like, such as Theakston's Old Peculiar...
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Oh, I can think of better things to do with Theakston's Old Peculiar ... Unless, of course, the grubs don't like "recycled" Theakston's Old Peculiar either.
If you don't know, Old Peculiar is a type of beer and rather strong.
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Goodness, Steve, you feed your bulbs well.
Paddy
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When I read all this about problems with narcissus fly grubs, I can only say, that I never had any. Hopefully this is not one of those famous last words ... toi, toi, toi ...
I always think and hope, this is due to my natural gardening and matrix planting. All my snowdrop bulbs, even the most precious ones, live like in nature between the roots of shrubs and perennial plants, the latter ones overgrowing the dying down leafs of the snowdrops in late April and May, so that the narcissus fly might have severe problems to find them. And there are some bigger narcissi in the meadow, which might be far more attractive to them.
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This is true not only for bulbs eaten by grubs but also for bulbs affected by fungal attack. I have saved lilies from bits and pieces by cutting away obviously diseased parts and treating the remainder with a fungicide. The books say "burn the bulb" but if it is the only one you have of a kind that cannot be easily replaced, the received wisdom should be ignored.
Since the narcissus fly is a naturally occurring predator on Amaryllidaceae (which incidentally is an indication that they are distinct from Allium) they will also attack "naturally" grown plants. However, monocultures are more open to attack from anything, diseases, pests, thieves, cultural mistakes... you name it.
Snowing. -7C Winter is here for good
Göte
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A thought just occurred to me,lets say you only had three of a very rare drop and you wanted to place it in others collections,being that it is better in a few peoples hands,then wouldn't be better to cut a bulb in half say and distribute the halfs or quarters than a single bulb.
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Pot-grown snowdrops seem less prone to insect predation
4 out of 5 pot grown Sophie North eaten by Narcissus fly grubs
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Point taken, Mark, but the predominant insect predator that attacks my bulbs eats its way in from the side and just keeps going until it gets bored. The picture in the link I gave is a typical example, in those instances where there is anything left at all! I tend to pin the blame on the larva of the swift moth, although without any solid evidence. I've never yet found a hollowed-out bulb like the ones in your photo.
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There is an interesting article on Narcissus bulb fly here: http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusBulbFly (http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusBulbFly)
Some quotes:
There are two flies: the large Narcissus Fly, Merodon equestris, and the small Narcissus Fly, Eumerus strigatus.
Don't remove the detritus from the bulb. Plant the bulb as is since the detritus contains anti-fungicidal properties that prevent the bulb from rotting and enable it to survive long enough to aid sprouting of the surviving secondary meristem.
Destruction of the central meristem of the bulb by the larva will often trigger the secondary meristem in the outer scales into growth (if the bulb is large enough; smaller bulbs are usually totally consumed). Thus, if the bulb is left in the soil, a number of small leaves will emerge the following spring. Three growing seasons later, the bulb will be large enough to bloom again and provide the food source for another generation.
I have never found an attacked Galanthus in my garden, but I don't grow any special variety so I wouldn't miss one or two. And maybe there is some truth in what Thomas Seiler says. In Western Europe you can find snowdrops everywhere in the wild or half-wild. http://www.walkinginsunshine.nl/images/amw_2006_0306_121007AA.JPG (Utrecht NL, Amelisweerd park). They thrive without any fungicide or insecticide or whatever threatment. A field like that must be heaven for the Narcissus Fly but still it grows bigger and bigger each year.