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Bulbs => Bulbs General => Topic started by: bulborum on June 05, 2010, 09:15:05 PM

Title: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 05, 2010, 09:15:05 PM
Because the old topic was 2 years old
and for so long as the name is Maianthemum
here some pictures of a Chinese beauty
Maianthemum szechuanicum

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 08, 2010, 09:51:11 AM
Bought as Maianthemum fuscum

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on June 08, 2010, 07:54:51 PM
Glad you reused the old title, they are still giving me identification headaches...

My chocolate one from NW Yunnan is looking rather delicious at the moment, it's twice as large as it was last summer, both in height and in number of shots. Still not completely sure of what it is, though. Also below; Smilacina henryi, it's nicely scented (like Platanthera bifolia).
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 08, 2010, 08:09:41 PM
Looks most like Maianthemum atropurpureum
I am looking for this one sins a long time
bought it a few times from Chen Yi
but every time she send other plants
The last time Veratrum's

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 11, 2010, 11:27:54 PM
Here some pictures from a maianthemum
125 cm tall
maybe M.tatsinense with nice orange berries
I will post later this summer the picture of the berry's

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: mark smyth on June 12, 2010, 12:11:23 AM
I must take a photo of my Maianthemum. It's supposed to be to be a new dwarf form
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: shelagh on June 12, 2010, 01:46:54 PM
We've been ripping it out by the handful it's a d****d nuisance.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 12, 2010, 02:09:53 PM
Which one

hopefully not the M. atropurpureum
would give me a sleepless night
I am searching sins many years for this one

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: TheOnionMan on June 12, 2010, 02:19:52 PM
Looks most like Maianthemum atropurpureum
I am looking for this one sins a long time
bought it a few times from Chen Yi
but every time she send other plants
The last time Veratrum's

Roland

I continue to wonder how Chen Yi stays in business... the only thing certain about such orders is that most species are misidentified, sometimes (as in your example here) even the genus is misidentified ::), perhaps the only thing certain is that one receives plants *collected* in China, and there's the hope that once such plants are obtained someone can deal with applying a correct identification.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on June 12, 2010, 02:32:54 PM
I continue to wonder how Chen Yi stays in business... the only thing certain about such orders is that most species are misidentified, sometimes (as in your example here) even the genus is misidentified ::), perhaps the only thing certain is that one receives plants *collected* in China, and there's the hope that once such plants are obtained someone can deal with applying a correct identification.

The chocolate Smilacina isn't from Chen Yi, but I have difficulties seeing how she could NOT stay in buisness - she's solely responsible for introducing hundreds of new species into horticulture, and her plants cost a fraction of what you'd have to pay here in the west (with them usually having been sourced from her anyway). Smilacinas certainly aren't threatened, they are harvested by the tons for use as vegetables (http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/250/4/I1547-3465-04-167.pdf); just as Polygonatum, Corydalis, Fritillaria and Epimedium (and many, many others) are harvested for use as medicine.

Roland;

I've already promised a piece of it to Aaron, but will hopefully be able to divide it again in a year or two. The headache involves another clone arriving in the same batch as the chocolate S. atropurpurea, they look quite different but both key out as that species.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: Pascal B on June 12, 2010, 06:51:39 PM
Smilacinas certainly aren't threatened, they are harvested by the tons for use as vegetables (http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/250/4/I1547-3465-04-167.pdf); just as Polygonatum, Corydalis, Fritillaria and Epimedium (and many, many others) are harvested for use as medicine.

That doesn't say much because there is a difference between harvested (from the wild) and cultivated for use as medicine..... Some genera are, some genera are not. And it is not genera as a whole, it is in most cases specific species that are used for medicine. The plants that worry me are the plants that have only been available for 1-2 years from her because that suggests the place she found it has been stripped bare. And plants like Podophyllum versipelle are endangered in the wild because of medicine use (A preliminary study of genetic variation in the endangered,
Chinese endemic species Dysosma versipellis (Berberidaceae), Bot. Bull. Acad. Sin. (2005) 46:61-69) and if collecting for Western gardeners is added to that the impact can be severe.....

Some plants or genera can be bought from her without any serious impact on the natural populations, some are questionable but that last catagory contains many plants that we now all cherish and are glad they were introduced. If we all put a lot of effort in propagating and exchanging them we no longer need her for these plants. But let's face it, every species in cultivation at one point was collected in the wild. A collecting permit does not make it more legitimate, that is just a piece of paper written by a bureaucrat and only clears the conscience of some..... ;)

Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 20, 2010, 11:16:23 PM
Here some pictures from Maianthemum henryi

some make really nice red stems or leave connections

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: manicbotanic on June 24, 2010, 06:15:45 PM
hi
bought this as mainanthemum oleraceum from edrom.
dont think it is oleraceum....?any ideas anyone.
its a nice plant anyway but its the same thing i bought off them
a few years ago as aff salvinii.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on June 24, 2010, 06:44:00 PM
It looks like Maianthemum purpureum
but I know this one only from pictures
with brown red leaves when they develop
maybe later they turn green as in many plants

see :  http://www.asianflora.com/Convallariaceae/Maianthemum-purpureum.htm

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on July 17, 2010, 08:19:34 AM
manicbotanic;

I agree with bulborum, looks like S. purpurea. Edrom's plants are Indian, I think.

Another S. szechuanica below (I think).

Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: TheOnionMan on July 17, 2010, 02:47:55 PM
It looks like Maianthemum purpureum
but I know this one only from pictures
with brown red leaves when they develop
maybe later they turn green as in many plants

see :  http://www.asianflora.com/Convallariaceae/Maianthemum-purpureum.htm

Roland

Hi Roland,  just had a look at the asianflora site... interesting, but at least with a genus that I'm familiar with such as Allium, a number of species of Allium in their photo gallery are incorrectly identified. Something to keep in mind when viewing a site such as this and depending on the photo IDs. 
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on July 17, 2010, 03:00:53 PM
Hello Mark

This is why it is called Maianthemum headache
There are so many wrong names on the road
Like in Allium

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: TheOnionMan on July 17, 2010, 03:18:29 PM
Hello Mark

This is why it is called Maianthemum headache
There are so many wrong names on the road
Like in Allium

Roland

Exactly!  :D
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: mark smyth on July 17, 2010, 08:58:41 PM
My new Maianthemum sp. came from Beeches Nursery who were given it from ? who said it was a new specie.

The leaf stems are 5mm and the leaves are elongated hearts 3cm long and 2 cm wide. I have had it a few years but it has never flowered. It lives in a full shade trough with an Adiantum japonicum and Hosta Cats Eye

I'll try to remember to take a photo tomorrow
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on July 17, 2010, 09:09:58 PM
How many leaves? How thick are the stems? From your description it sounds like Maianthemum proper, not Smilacina.

Also, looking thru Beeches' price list I noticed a name I had not seen before; Maianthemum chasmanthum. Anyone know what it might be? It's not listed in the Kew Checklist.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: mark smyth on July 17, 2010, 09:18:56 PM
How many leaves? How thick are the stems? From your description it sounds like Maianthemum proper, not Smilacina.

It wasn't available when I got it. Maybe it is now. I'll email Beeches plantsman later - probably the most knowledgable person I know.

He also gave me a new Anemone nemerosa called 'Super Allenii'

Single leaves with stems 1mm and under
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on July 18, 2010, 10:08:10 AM
It sounds very interesting, so I'd love to see a picture of it! :)
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: mark smyth on July 18, 2010, 10:14:08 AM
Maianthemum

I need to get the liverwort out.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: arisaema on July 18, 2010, 10:22:15 AM
Thanks, looks like a lovely little species!

Liverwort is a neverending battle here as well, I bought some Mogeton (quinoclamine) this spring, but haven't gotten around to trying it yet.
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on July 18, 2010, 01:45:13 PM
Hello Mark

This is the old named Maianthemum
and not  the Smilacina which is brought in to Maianthemum
The botanist who did this was probably drunk or smoked something   (http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/party/party0041.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
if he doesn't see the difference between 4 or 6 petal
Maianthemum with 4 and Smilacina with 6 petal
But Ok I am just a grower and no botanist so they are right
It depends where your Maianthemum is collected
Europe = bifolium
America Canada = canadense
Asia = kamtchaticum
these are roughly the best possibilities

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: Afloden on July 20, 2010, 03:41:45 AM
Mark S,

 It seems most likely that your Maianthemum is M. dilatatum, or the form/species formerly known as M. kamtschaticum. It could also be the Yakushima form.

 There was a paper published last year that suggested, based on molecular data, to keep Maianthemum and Smilacina separate. So, the tri- vs. bi-merous floral characters are good morphologic characters. It took the horticultural world about 15 years to catch on to LaFrankie's lumping of the two and now 10 years later molecular data tells us to go back.

 Mark Mc, email Cedric about his identifications. He is usually glad of the help.

 Aaron


   
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: manicbotanic on May 01, 2011, 12:20:23 PM
maianthemum from chen yi.came as japonica!!!!!
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on May 02, 2011, 07:30:43 AM
I received the same
not just as S. japonicum
but even as Polygonatum
I don't buy there any more
finally it cost to much for what you get

maybe interesting for botanist
but it gives me to much headache
sorting out what is what

Roland
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: Afloden on May 03, 2011, 08:47:16 PM
The plant in question is M. tatsienense -- a fairly commonly sent species from CY along with M. henryi. To double check try http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=119474 (http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=119474)

 Roland, for a botanist her plants are outstanding even if some of the practices are considered unethical. A few things from her are new species and others are the only known collections since Wilson's trips in the early 1900's!

 Aaron
Title: Re: Chinese Maianthemum headache
Post by: bulborum on May 03, 2011, 09:41:06 PM
I forgot to mention it was M. tatsiense

I got hundreds of them from here
under the most fantastic names
I hate it if they rip me off
if it is a mistake ,ok
but sending Disporopsis or Maianthemum for Polygonatum
even a simple grower as me recognises this

It was almost the same story as 25 years ago
almost 9 out of 10 packets with seeds from Allium
I got from botanic gardens from all over the world
where Allium cyathophorum var. farreri

It would be nice if she would mention the finding place

What I understand Maianthemum is now Smilacina again
when do they shoot taxonomist  ???
They should pay the money they make back
when they make stupid mistakes like this

Roland
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